Here is a nifty tidbit of information, Rishkar, Peema Renegade lets Wall of Roots tap to add green while it has a 0/-1 counter! His text only states the creature has to have a "counter." What is really cool about this archetype is that there are soooooo many different ways to build it and they all can be successful.
What's so hard right now for me is I don't know which deck I want to play. I want to play them all!
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
But in all seriousness, proxy up different versions to see how they play! There's a big difference between how decks with say, primal command play vs those with burning-tree emissary. The beauty of devotion is that you can customize it to your playstyle
Just saw that Green Devotion put up another strong result, this time taking 1st at the Wyoming TCGPlayer States: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/598606#online. It appears to be more a traditional list rather than toolbox, but includes some new cards like Rishkar's Expertise. Go Green!
That is AWESOME!!! You all know how much I like new cards I tried to make Rishkar's Expertise work (As it is just NUTS when it resolves with a fatty on board) but it tended to be a little "win more"...but I don't have a first place states finish; so it looks like I was wrong
Congrats!! If you are on here please let us know how things went.
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Also, just to kinda end the discussion for the time being...it looks like for now that Tooth and Nail is staying under the "Nykthos Green" umbrella for the a little while.
I totally understand the argument by some that it can be played without Nykthos (although not as good ) but I have historically included it here...and now Modern Nexus has included it together.
I do understand if they are broken up in the future; but we do tend to play a very similar "core of cards" and the big difference is how the deck wins. For now; I will make sure to update the Primer tomorrow evening to ensure that both variants are highlighted and shown equal respect in the primer.
Here is a nifty tidbit of information, Rishkar, Peema Renegade lets Wall of Roots tap to add green while it has a 0/-1 counter! His text only states the creature has to have a "counter." What is really cool about this archetype is that there are soooooo many different ways to build it and they all can be successful.
What's so hard right now for me is I don't know which deck I want to play. I want to play them all!
Darn it...this makes me want to try this now Gets me going down the rabbit hole with counters (and Nissa VOZ, etc.)
I'm just like Grull_Me though...I own every good (and many that are truly awful) "Green Devotion" card. That is one of the downsides to playing devotion...it opens up so many options
I want to add a plug for a new green critter that I will be experimenting with once I get them - Oversoul of Dusk. I have a pretty heavy grixis/jund meta so I'm thinking this will pull some real weight
I want to add a plug for a new green critter that I will be experimenting with once I get them - Oversoul of Dusk. I have a pretty heavy grixis/jund meta so I'm thinking this will pull some real weight
I looked at Oversoul but I think vorapede might be better but that might just be my meta
Primevil Titan let's you fetch for Kessig and Nykthos consistently and that package wins a lot of games quickly. If they kill the Titan you can still make a huge attack with one of your small guys. It's really not a build-around-me card, it just closes out games fast and provides resilience and consistency.
I'm looking at your list, and scratching my head, but I guess I have to test it to understand. It seems like it does a lot of cute stuff, but it's generally slower than other lists. I like that my list can win turn 3 or 4 with Craterhoof.
Also, I'm not convinced that Blood Moon is worth a spot, since it's bad with Nykthos. Do people use it just for Tron or for 3+ color decks as well??
I feel that cards like Courser of Kruphix and Fauna Shaman are slow and better for grinding. I think Mono Green Devotion should have a very fast consistent gameplan, and then have a toolbox of creatures to deal with any situation that could arise.
I also don't like Strangleroot in theory, because it doesn't let you dump devotion on the board as fast as BTE. It's just a better blocker, and I guess helps you get aggro too, though this is more of a combo deck.
Can you explain why Bellower is good?
Also, a lot of people are running Thragtusk, and I think that Pelakka Wurm deserves a mention.
About Nissa, Voice of Zendikar; I'm really having trouble deciding if I should have more of these in my deck. It creates guys for craterhoof sure, and I guess it can create one more dude if play her then cast Hoof the following turn after you activaate her a second time. It comboes with Kitchen Finks. It creates and endless supply of Chump blockers. And it can pump our entire team. It also gives us some resiliency to wrath effects. Kitchen finks can also trade with creatures. I do see how it's a great card in many ways though. It can also fill up the board with big beaters fast in conjuction with Garruk's beast tokens. I'd say the best argument for having Nissa is that is better vs removal, especially Path to Exile unlike Finks, and it's good vs Wrath effects. It really tough deciding what my mainboard 3 drops should be, but Witness and Selkie provide card draw and card advantage as well as being a little bit faster so I'm sticking with them for now, although that might be incorrect. I'd love to be able to play more Nissa's. I do think that list that placed 24th at Dallas was a really great Devotion list.
On Primeval Titan
This discussion has come up a few times before throughout the years Devotion has been on here; but the general discussion ends up with the idea that Primeval Titan is a great card that can be amazing in the right devotion deck...it just doesn't necessarily have to be played in every devotion deck.
It's kinda up to each person whether they feel it is worth it or not. It is one of the best 5-7 CMC options (may be the best); but there are others close in power level that are playable. Those stating that they don't care for Prime Time are aware it fetches Nykthos and Kessig Wolf Run. There are just some lists/players that would rather the 5-6 drop either fetch/generate another creature/non-land permanent, have a triggered use that can be triggered multiple times, etc. It just depends on the list's goals/win-conditions.
I would NEVER tell someone not to play Primeval Titan. I just think that if you are going to play Primeval Titan, it should be one of your main "Win Conditions" (i.e. a focus of the deck).
On Mana Problems
I put this inside of Spoiler Tag simply because I don't currently play Kiora (so it's kind of a moot point) and it's more of a general discussion on mana bases in devotion (as I had thoughts about the Trial deck that were interesting to me) and how to "smooth" out/fix bases/what has worked in testing etc...
Without any detail on how long or how many actual matches you played with my prior list (you said you "picked up up once" so I understand that it wasn't much) I don't want to get too far into it. I was interested with your comment on the mana though...You had indicated in the past said you found no issues with the mana for the Trial-winning deck, stating:
"...The mana base is not bad, and remember there are 4 Utopia Spawl 4 Arbor Elf and 3 Oath of Nissa to smooth out early mana problems, mana is not an issue with this deck I promise. I tested it a lot, and mana problems are seriously my worst nightmare in Magic and I prefer to play the least amount of nonbasic lands as I can to ensure I can play my spells when I want to..."
The Trial deck played 3x Nykthos, a Radiant Fountain, a Boseiju, Who Shelters All (which also comes into play tapped), and a Kessig Wolf Run (as well as another come into play tapped land and non-forest Raging Ravine). At the time I honestly worried that the mana base for the Trial deck was a little "greedy" because of that; but I took your word for it as someone who had played it enough to know.
In my prior list, however the only cards in the main that even require a color other than green were Planeswalkers (which as you know Oath is a huge benefit for) and I play a set of Birds of Paradise on top of a full set of Utopia Sprawl/Arbor Elf and Oath of Nissa...with no come into play tapped lands. I never ran into consistent issues with mana fixing due to this; but I do appreciate the feedback that it is something to monitor.
Having said all of the above...I don't have to worry as much any more; as my current list doesn't play Kiora
I do think as a general "theory", however, that the only place we can really spread ourselves into a third color is with Planeswalkers (due to Oath of Nissa). Even with Oath, however, I do believe you have to have multiple sources for the color (at least 10-12 of Oath, Utopia Sprawl, Birds, Fertile Ground, and/or Abundant Growth). Having said this, I've run many lists with 3 different color walkers with traditionally 12 of the aforementioned fixing pieces and had no issues with mana.
I have been lazy and I haven't posted my list in a while (as I've been testing over a dozen different 1-of's relatively "hard core")....but Kiora has been removed. Once I was down to 1x Spreading Seas with no other blue cards in the board...she just wasn't worth the splash any more (even with Oath) as the pain I could save was worth it. So in a roundabout way, your concern was resolved!
I do still LOVE Spreading Seas and Negate-style cards (they have worked well in the past); so I can't promise blue will never be back
On Woodland Bellower
Bellower falls in line with my core philosophy on the way I prefer to play Green Devotion. I've always felt that Green Devotion was at its best when it was somewhat "focused" on permanent-based card draw/advantage. When possible, the vast majority of this draw/advantage should come from creatures. Bellower fits this philosophy. It provides an up-the-curve means of flexible card advantage via permanents (i.e. that puts more devotion on the board). It facilitates a few functions:
1. Can turn games around where you are behind - I've had many games where I have a good amount of mana but am not doing much...a Bellower into a Selkie/Witness/Duskwatch can quickly lead to a 3-for-1 or more. We tend to win on "overrun" effects and pump effects; so this gives us options.
2. Can help close out games when we are ahead - A Bellower when way ahead can quickly get things out of control. Even just a Bellower into a Selkie into a Visionary into a Elf can make a Garruk/Craterhoof Lethal the next turn.
It is just a great way to continue to "Snowball" the permanents on the board while giving you that added bit of flexibility to get an "answer" where needed in certain situations.
It's many many of the same cards I've been playing for some time; but with Chords and a few less walkers. The Reclamation Sage main may become a Genesis Hydra or Walking Ballista (they are all in the 75 so it's not a huge deal).
There is every possibility that Pact can be just as good as Chord in the list (as Witness grabs back Pact too). Chord just has a few uses that are slightly different (instant speed, can grab creatures of different colors, and makes use of Visionaries, Selkies, tokens, etc.)
I've been working on finding the worst main-board match ups to develop the best sideboard. I've actually looked into cards like Trinishpere, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, and Thorn of Amethyst to deal with those decks that essentially just try to go super quick...I also am working with Gaddock Teag and Genesis Hydra....There are also a lot of great Chord options...I'll update the board this week once I feel it is set for the current "top of the overall meta" rather than my local meta.
The point of this particular Devotion deck is to basically to optimize permanent-based card advantage with a particular focus on Garruk Wildspeaker and Eternal Witness. My thoughts were:
1. The win-conditions I tend to prefer are based on "going wide" (Garruk's Overrun, Craterhoof, etc.)
2. I have always preferred permanent-based card advantage; but the issue is that such cards can be "air" if you don't hit a win-con...this was mitigated by Chord of Calling.
3. Chord of Calling essentially turns all of the non-dork creatures (Visionary, Selkie, Bellower, etc.) into mana sources via Convoke.
4. The cards create multiple "links" depending on your mana. A majority of the cards either dig, draw, or tutor for one another so that you can efficiently spend all of the mana you generate on each turn.
I always liked the idea that even just with mana and a Chord, you can Chord for a Witness and recur the Chord for use the next turn (so you turn essentially nothing into something). With this deck, at X=3 you can do this with Witness and at X=6 you can do it with Bellower (Chord for Bellower into Witness to recur the Chord)
The point is that the deck "Snowballs" while having enough "Selection" to deal with the opponent just enough to buy the time needed to overrun them.
I haven't played the deck to say it is "competitive" yet; but I certainly think it can get there. It's not rocket science (as it is mostly just good green cards ) but I have enjoyed it thus far.
Why Chord over Pact?
I assumed this would be the first question that arose based on the recent success of "Pact Devotion" lists.
One of the Blessings or Curses (depending on how you look at it) of Devotion is that we can go MANY different ways with it. While I try to have a general "Feel" and experience with every form of devotion deck so I can help facilitate discussions....I absolutely love that Devotion can be competitive for many different types of play style preferences.
I do think the 4x Pact and 4x BTE lists (what I call the "Aggro Toolbox" Lists) are the fastest Devotion decks. They take advantage of Burning Tree Emissary and Summoner's Pact to get to quickly get to a 6-8 drop creature (generally Primeval Titan, Atarka, and/or Craterhoof). These tend to be best when they focus squarely on hitting a critical mass and Hoof/Overrun on turn 3-4.
I played a Pact list extremely similar to the current popular lists over a year ago (when the meta was a little more aggro or bust). I love the deck. I think it best takes advantage of the following three cards:
Obviously, all three are among the best green cards ever printed. Being able to "string" BTE's into a huge turn with a Nykthos is unbelievable (and leads to the turn 3 Craterhoofs that are amazing!). Prime Time's extra lands become HUGE when you have to pay for a Pact the next turn (essentially halving or even nullifying the "downside" to a ZERO COSTED tutor. The deck is great and I don't think a whole lot need changed to be honest.
In honesty, my current Chord list is essentially a slightly slower, more resilient version of the Pact deck.
I had success with the Pact list for some time. My meta, however, became a little more "grindy". More counters and kill spells have shown up relatively consistently for a while. I initially combated the heavy creature removal by playing Super friends decks (they either had to "waste" the removal on tokens I could keep making or their removal was essentially worthless trying to kill a walker.) Walkers are one of the single best permanents you can utilize to create advantage turn after turn. This worked well until many of the decks started playing extremely large extremely efficient creatures that could easily attack through and kill the walkers. This led me to the current iteration I am playing.
When I was playing a Pact list I was a little weak to removal and very weak to board wipes. I had to worry about overextending more and more. A cheap removal spell could cost my paying for the pact, or kill the whole "point" of the pact (i.e. if I "pact" for Prime Time only to have it Pathed, etc.). Often times I would play 5-6 cards within 2 turns only to have the "focus" of those cards removed (or the cards themselves )....I would essentially devoted my entire hand to the board...and a well placed Anger of the Gods, Engineered Explosives (which is quickly becoming one of the most popular cards in Modern), ratchet bomb, or even a Negate, Path, or Fatal push could effectively put me in "top deck mode". When this was added to all of the counters; there were just too many such cards I had to play against on a consistent basis. The deck wasn't bad...it was just bad in my meta.
This, however, does not make the deck "bad". It has sideboard options it can utilize, and its speed sometimes can't be stopped (i.e. the turn 3 wins, etc.). The simple truth is that every deck has its weaknesses (my current list has its own set of weaknesses) and the Pact list at the time had enough weakness that could be exploited that I move away from it. Also, the current pact lists play a few more cards that can help "come back" from early removal. So please don't think I think the deck is "bad". I think it is awesome! It was just that it was bad in MY meta. This is why I tend to focus on more card advantage and more of an "overwhelming" nature that is a little slower.
I do think, however, that with the right board that the Chord list can perform well in the current overall "Modern Meta" (i.e. the top 12 decks) just based on my testing. The Pact list, however, can as well. They have slightly different good/bad match ups and answers; but both compete. I don't see things as "Strictly Better" or worse. Certain cards are better together (i.e. Pact and BTE, Overgrowth and Tooth and Nail, Visionary and Chord, etc.) and certain decks are better/worse given different context/metas/boards.
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I'm really excited to see the renewed interest in Green Devotion, some new faces, and a LOT more steady and strong results in bigger tournaments. I think we are poised to continue to move up in Modern. I can't say we will ever be "Tier 1" (I'm not entirely certain I would want to be)...but I do think we can be Tier 2 at some point with the right set of circumstances and cards/lists.
I'd love to hear how Whisperwood has played. I'd love to play one of them (especially if the meta allows it) as we are one of the few decks that can really take advantage of it...
To answer the question about Abundant Growth...Abundant Growth is a great Devotion card. It fixes, replaces itself, and adds one Devotion. It pays for itself both via Devotion (mana) and in cards. Michael Jacobs said he preferred it to nearly all other similar cards. There are some fun things you Can do with fetches and Witness (put the Growth on a Fetch, draw a card, crack the Fetch, play Witness recurring the Growth; put it on another land, draw a card) and I feel course craziness with Cloudstone...but even just by itself it is a good card.
I've played it in the past and really like it. I often play a 1-2 of Growth in decks where I feel fixing is needed and/or the deck feels "complete" and I don't want to mess the curve up. It's a great card early without being a poor top deck late as well.
Btw, what is the opinion on Elderscale Wurm in one of the "flex-fatty" slots as sort of a creature version of Worship ?
Elderscale Wurm has been spectacular in multiple metas. This actually may be one of the better times for it. I don't know if it's best in the main or board; but I certainly think it's worth it in the 75 right now.
Awesome post CurdBros, always love seeing what you've been working on!
With your dip into Green/White have you considered putting ThuneFeeder into the 75 as a way to just declare "I win"? We generate more mana than many other decks would, so we could pull it off faster. Bellower+Chord can fetch Feeder and Chord can fetch Archangel of Thune at instant speed.
Also I love the idea of Gaddock Teeg. I absolutely hate playing against Tron at the moment with any modern deck and with the rise of it at my LGS I find the idea of putting a couple of Teeg's in the sideboard would be worthwhile. In the instance of boarding in Teeg's, would you run a full 4 Genesis Hydra to replace the Chords?
Very informative post CurdBros. Btw, I'm counting 61 cards in that Maindeck. This most recent list looks much more focused and neat as well. I'd like to mention, that if you're running Fairgrounds Warden you might want to consider Palace Jailer instead. Palace Jailer is one of the most powerful creatures every printed if you can keep your opponent from getting Monarch. I play Legacy Soldiers as my main Legacy deck and this was one of the cards that boosted this deck to an top tier deck IMO that no one plays. Except for me and a few other peeps that have witnessed it's power!!
Why do you have three copies of Elvish Visionary and 2 Copies of Selkie? I get that Selkie is a great Green Devotion as well as a cantrip, but I don't quite understand the Visionary over the BTE. I understand that it's more justifiable with Chord in the deck, and it's a two drop not 3-drop, but it's still worse with Nykthos.
Also, it would be great if you posted your sideboard as well.
In what matchup do you bring in Loaming Shaman? Dredge has died out of the meta. It can be good against some decks like Bant Retreat if you can chord for it at instant speed., and perhaps a little bit decent vs Grixis.
I do think the 4x Pact and 4x BTE lists (what I call the "Aggro Toolbox" Lists) are the fastest Devotion decks. They take advantage of Burning Tree Emissary and Summoner's Pact to get to quickly get to a 6-8 drop creature (generally Primeval Titan, Atarka, and/or Craterhoof). These tend to be best when they focus squarely on hitting a critical mass and Hoof/Overrun on turn 3-4.
I'm not sure I ever cast Pact for BTE, I definitely have for Arbor Elf, but I do it with extreme caution because I don't want to throw the game away to a single removal spell disallowing me the mana for Pact.
Chord is very interesting, also because it can potentially allow for powerful non green creatures like Magus of the Moon. I'm excited to mess test it myself, even if it it turns out that I don't think it's better than Pact. The fact that you put a creature on the bf at instant speed is what makes it seem better than Pact, especially vs counterspells. Unfortunately it turns on opponents Grafdigger's Cages.
With your dip into Green/White have you considered putting ThuneFeeder into the 75 as a way to just declare "I win"? We generate more mana than many other decks would, so we could pull it off faster. Bellower+Chord can fetch Feeder and Chord can fetch Archangel of Thune at instant speed.
Also I love the idea of Gaddock Teeg. I absolutely hate playing against Tron at the moment with any modern deck and with the rise of it at my LGS I find the idea of putting a couple of Teeg's in the sideboard would be worthwhile. In the instance of boarding in Teeg's, would you run a full 4 Genesis Hydra to replace the Chords?
Gaddock Teeg seems to hurt our plan too much, no matter how we build our deck, because it hates on Command, Garruk, Chord, Genesis and Tooth and Nail.
It could be good if we are far enough ahead on board in certain matchups. There are other ways to deal with tron (i.e Acidic Slime, Terastodon, Crumble to Dust)
I think trying to add the Thune Feeder combo is doing too much. I don't play Abzan Chord, but I think those deck are focus on the comboes, it's not really a secondary plan. They have 4x Chord and 4x Eldritch Evolution to find the combo pieces. We win by beating down, finding hate creatures, and Hoofing.
Elderscale Wurm is dealt with by casting a single Path to Exile, or an Ugin/Karn and more. Obviously it's an autowin against some decks but not enough good ones IMO. Well maybe against Death's Shadow if they can't make us sac it to Lily, and also perhaps Grixis Control. I think this is definitely a meta call.
It's seemed very strange to me at first, and still does to an extent, but after I thought about it more, Joraga could definitely be good in certain situations as well as Rishkar. Also, Rishkar is potentially amazing with Nissa! I don't like Joraga too much, maybe as a 1 to fetch with Bellower.
Rishkar's Expertise seems like a strange card, and it can't cast any of our fatties, but I suppose drawing 2-3 cards at the very least off of a small creature and then casting a Primal Command or a Plansewalker is a pretty decent play. It's definitely a lot of value.
There's so many different possibilities with this deck, and trying to find the optimal deck is definitely an enjoyable yet difficult puzzle to solve, and I love the deck because of it. I love playing fatties and having an arsenal of toolbox creatures. Also, it's the kind of deck that can be immensely improved with any new creature spoiled.
Below I've compiled a list of any Green creatures I thought could potentially see play in a Bellower deck that you can reference in the future.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
@CurdBros, so I tested your list, albeit not much, and I had a lot of fun activating Duskwatch Recruiter 4-5 times in turn. The problem is, the value is nice, but if I just hit Craterhoof on the first activation that's all I would need to win. So I'm wondering why you took out a your single Fauna Shaman which can find him in one go? Did you find it to be a too slow? At least you can get some value out of Duskwatch without him having to live until the following turn. But there's an issue I had with him... he flips. That can make him really bad because he's in the deck to dig, not to make creatures cost 1 less. I know you mentioned that Enchantment, I forget the name, that is like a worse version of Survival of the Fittest, but because it can't be Bellowed I'm not a fan at all.
I'd like to add that when searching for ate creatures, it makes sense to look at the most similar deck in the format to our which is Abzan.
Unfortunately, a lot of their hate cards come with White mana symbols like Kataki and Ethersworn Canonist, Tidehollow Sculler, Sin Collector and Selfless Spirit. In a Chord Devotion deck, these cards are definitely more more justifiable, but I'm not sure if they are completely justifiable.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Polukranos is good because it kills creatures, and that effect is not very replaceable. We can monstrous for a ton killing multiple creatures and making a huge beater. It can monstrous as soon as it comes into play, so even if they can kill it, it can get value beforehand. It's also a big big body for cheap.
I don't think you understand the point of Thragtusk. It's not meant to be played against decks running Anger of the Gods or wraths effects so much as it's meant to gain life vs Burn, and be a good value creature for aggressive creature decks that we can get down fairly quickly to mitigate the life loss.
I would compare Whisperwood to a card like Dauntless Escort. It helps against Wrath effects, but I like Dauntless because it can be fetched with Bellower.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I would LOVE if Palace Jailer was available to us. The Conspiracy stuff, however, only works in Legacy/Vintage (for better or worse Modern currently only gets cards via Standard legal sets)...I hope someday the think about a Modern expansion (or just putting a few new cards in Modern Masters) but that is a different discussion entirely.
I'm surprised you've never cast Pact to get a BTE. I remember many a turns where I would use Pact to "String together" BTE's to play something ridiculously huge early (and in many instances just win the game). It is, however, a gamble (and can only be done against certain opponents and often if and when they tap our early).
**P.S. Yes it is 61 cards. I apologize I didn't mention that. In some builds that go higher up the curve (where hitting land drops feels a little more important) I will actually play 21 lands instead of 20. I've found, however, that it just plays better with 21 lands and 61 cards than it does with either 20 lands or 39 non-lands (generally one less bird when I've tried to cut in the past). **
Loaming Shaman was a more prevalent/powerful card when Dredge was all the rage. I liked the flexibility of having the option to shuffle back in other cards of my choosing from my graveyard into my library (i.e. if Craterhoof or another tutor target was removed earlier in the game)...For most lists, the best graveyard hate is Scavenging Ooze...but Loaming Shaman definitely has its pros.
On Joraga Treespeaker
Michael Jacobs (the professional player who worked on this deck for a quite some time a years ago) REALLY liked Treespeaker. He utilized it in every devotion deck he made. His thoughts on the card are :
"...Provides a key function in being able to produce two mana from a single card and is critical in games you mulligan. The one-turn windup before Treespeaker produces mana restricts their number in the deck to two since drawing multiples can be too slow. Be aware the level up ability is something your opponent can respond to, so cast cards like Utopia Sprawl and Burning-Tree Emissary beforehand so that your whole turn does not get blanked by a card like Lightning Bolt or Path to Exile. Joraga Treespeaker is also an excellent mana sink because a 1/4 can block quite well. It's often better to level up turn 2 if you have nothing else to do, as attacking for one is not as useful as allowing Arbor Elf to produce two green later in the game..."
I have played it in the past, and I do think the ability to produce two mana become a very big deal when it works. I haven't tested it enough to claim to be "proficient" with it (as I generally play 2-3 colors so Birds is needed for fixing) but I do think it has the potential to be among the best dorks in mono-green variants.
On Evolutionary Leap
Yeah...it would take a LOT more study on the Evolutionary Leap front.
I've wanted to build an Enchantment-based Devotion build for some time. I really think there could be something there between Courser, Eidolon, Oath, Utopia Sprawl, Fertile Ground, and even Nylea.
Evolutionary Leap just feels like a great way to (a) turn a smaller creature (i.e. a Visionary, etc.) that may have already done it's ETB thing into another (hopefully larger) creature. It also is a GREAT answer to spells that exile (so we can get the card into the graveyard instead), removal, and even boardwipes. I've thought about playing it in the board if and when boardwipes become more prevalent even in non-enchantment based decks.
Another card I've played that I honestly really like is Lignify. It's a great on-color way to nulify an opponent's creature while also giving us devotion. It was a portion of the enchantment deck I wanted to play. It just a great green and permanent means to "stopping" an opponent's creature...it doesn't remove them completely; but it does give us one more devotion...anywho thought I'd point it out while I was talking about my attempts with Enchantment based Devotion decks.
Awesome post CurdBros, always love seeing what you've been working on!
With your dip into Green/White have you considered putting ThuneFeeder into the 75 as a way to just declare "I win"? We generate more mana than many other decks would, so we could pull it off faster. Bellower+Chord can fetch Feeder and Chord can fetch Archangel of Thune at instant speed.
Also I love the idea of Gaddock Teeg. I absolutely hate playing against Tron at the moment with any modern deck and with the rise of it at my LGS I find the idea of putting a couple of Teeg's in the sideboard would be worthwhile. In the instance of boarding in Teeg's, would you run a full 4 Genesis Hydra to replace the Chords?
Exactly...Gaddock Teeg would come in if I made a more "transformational" portion of the board. This would include at least three copies of Genesis Hydra in place of Chord of Calling...I've also tested ideas such as Thalia and Thorn of Amethyst, etc....where essentially you get "rewarded" for playing only Creature spells. I haven't tested it to a point where I feel comfortable saying "this is the board" and Chord obviously opens up options for great creature hosers a well (Eidolon of Rhetoric, etc.)...
I've also been working with Heartwood Storyteller in the same vain (as it can be tutored with Bellower). I think the downside of them drawing off a Garruk or potential Chord may be worth it (but the enchantments do hurt a little...but you don't HAVE to play them). As with any symetrical effect; as long as it hurts them way more than it hurts us than its ok for a few cards to go "against" it or "nombo".
I don't know if an efficient plan is there...but a vast majority of our worst match ups are the unfair spell-based decks...so if we can find a consistent way to hose them we are in a GREAT position.
I did look into the Thune/Spike Feeder combo. I even tested a deck that was heavy on the combo (like three copies of feeder and two Archangels). It is definitely a viable possibility. The funny thing is that Walking Ballista turns the combo into infinite damage too (as with a Ballista on board it gets "infinite" +1/+1 counters that can be converted to damage...so yes I have looked into this and still have a version that focuses on the combo.
With this deck, however, I felt like I should start with a focus on Garruk and Craterhoof as the win-cons. I think there is absolute potential with the combo...but that the deck would look likely have to look a little different. I will, however, try to add one of each and see if literally just a copy of each is worth it. It well may be.
@CurdBros, so I tested your list, albeit not much, and I had a lot of fun activating Duskwatch Recruiter 4-5 times in turn. The problem is, the value is nice, but if I just hit Craterhoof on the first activation that's all I would need to win. So I'm wondering why you took out a your single Fauna Shaman which can find him in one go? Did you find it to be a too slow? At least you can get some value out of Duskwatch without him having to live until the following turn. But there's an issue I had with him... he flips. That can make him really bad because he's in the deck to dig, not to make creatures cost 1 less. I know you mentioned that Enchantment, I forget the name, that is like a worse version of Survival of the Fittest, but because it can't be Bellowed I'm not a fan at all.
I'd like to add that when searching for ate creatures, it makes sense to look at the most similar deck in the format to our which is Abzan.
Unfortunately, a lot of their hate cards come with White mana symbols like Kataki and Ethersworn Canonist, Tidehollow Sculler, Sin Collector and Selfless Spirit. In a Chord Devotion deck, these cards are definitely more more justifiable, but I'm not sure if they are completely justifiable.
Duskwatch has been in there simply because I find myself in games where I have a TON of mana and wanted to tutor for a sink that makes that mana worthwhile to building back up. Duskwatch is good because at minimum it is a body early if you draw it (that can flip in certain cases to become a cost-reduction tool) but in the late game can be a way for you to tutor for a creature that can refill your hand. In instances where the opponent is able to wipe your board but you still have a good amount of mana (and a few Utopia sprawls, an oath, etc.)
Basically, it is a card that isn't dead early; but can be very beneficial late (or in situations where you literally just have some extra mana to spend). A big way we win is being able to spend all of the mana we can generate each turn and mana sinks are one of our best way to do so.
It is, however, best as a 1-of. I don't mind drawing it early; but multiples are not needed because I can tutor for it if I absolutely need to.
Fauna Shaman is good in the slot as well. I'll have to test both.
On Abzan Cards
You are right that we can look into Abzan and even Kiki Chord for potential options...but you are spot on that we do play a little differently than those decks as well. I do like cards like Canonist, Kataki, Eidolon, Magus of the Moon etc. that can work as creature-based "hosers". It just matters on how easily they can be hard cast when not Chorded (and how the final board will be built).
On Cavern/Boseiju
I've always felt Bosiju had a place in decks that played a large amount of Primal Command and/or Genesis Wave...and in the other deck's case also Rishkar's Expertise. It's also great for Tooth and Nail to ensure their namesake card is uncounterable. In most of these builds, the only sorcery spells they play are 5+ and are very important cards. For those such decks, I do think Boseiju is worth it (at minimum in the board for when playing against control).
I'm not as certain on Cavern simply because we have so many different creature types.
On Rishkar List
I was SOOOO happy when Rishkar's Expertise was printed. It is an overtly powerful card for sure. At the time: I thought it could make a Reverent Hunter deck (another Bellower target) a possibility) as you could consistently draw 5-10+ cards and inevitably cast a Garruk Wildspeaker or Kiora, etc. (and walker than untaps Nykthos) to untap and play all of the cards you just drew...
The deck was good. The problem came about when it began to feel like Expertise was kind of "win more". It could close games out for sure; but a lot of the times it won I felt like I already had a strong position...and I tend to question myself when playing cards like this with the following:
1. If Rishkar's Expertise was a different 6-drop...would I still have won the game?
2. If so, are the downsides for Expertise (needing a creature to cast for full potential, not being a permanent, etc.) higher or lower than the downsides of other cards that would fill the slot it is in.
I can't say I've tested it in a list like the list posted. There is every possibility that simply drawing 3 cards and casting another 5-drop is absolutely worth it (sounds amazing just writing it out ) I'll have to test it more in more "traditional" lists to see if it is better than other 6-drops (or cards that fill a similar slot).
P.S. Awesome Bellower List...at one point I literally went through Gatherer and looked at every single 1-3 drop, non-legendary, green creature ever printed and made a similar list...it's a rabbit hole; but a fun one!
Firstly, how did you multiquote like that? I can't seem to do it efficiently.
I haven't tested Whisperwood, but it seems like Manifesting creatures isn't great. You don't get the ETB effects for flipping them.
It's true that even in a Pact deck we can't get a enormous Palukranos activation the turn it comes into play, but I like it better than Atarka becuase it's cheap, and can potentially do more dmg, and be even larger.
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Always wear protection kids, sleeve up your deck.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I personally have been starting to appreciate Atarka a little more than Polukrsnos. Generally, the match ups that require Polukranos activations are ones where you need it RIGHT NOW. Atarka provides that benefit. To get an equivalent activation out of Polukranos would require 11 mana... I'm not too excited about that. Anyway, just my two cents.
Yeah, I totally forgot that Jailer was illegal, and that kind of card draw is meant for grinding anyways.
Out of the Bellower targets I compiled, I think that the creatures with the most potential are Vexing Shaman, Reverent Hunter, Dungrove ElderDauntless Escort and Troll Ascetic. Dungrove Elder an get huge, although we aren't land ramping, so it will take a few turns for him to be enormous, but he's hard to deal with. Likewise, Troll Ascetic is even harder to deal with and provides one more devotion, an even better Kessig target. Probably just better than Elder. Reverent Hunter will be massive as soon as he hits the bf. He dies to removal, but they need to answer him or he will close out the game fast, especially with a Kessig. Vexing Shaman is a 2 devotion 2 drop that can nullify all of our opponents countespells.
The 1 Devotion from Visionary makes it seem much worse than BTE. The potential explosiveness that BTE provides seems better than drawing a single card.
This is the current Bellower Devotion list I'm testing
Some things I like about the Bellower version. It definitely allows for some value, and a grindier game. We can now run more hate creatures that can be fetched with Bellower. So we get a big body and a hate card as well. The small creatures are also not too hard to Chord for in the early stages of the game when it matters most.
I'm haven't actually played with Heartwood Storyteller, but I'm not convinced it's good yet.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I can't tell you how happy I am you mentioned Reverent Hunter I've loved that card and probably annoyed many on here when I insisted on brewing with it over and over again...
You are absolutely right too. I currently run two in my board (as it is surprisingly good against decks like Eldrazi and even Death's Shadow as they struggle when anyone has creatures bigger than theirs) but I would LOVE to get one in the main.
And you are right...having a Prime Time to fetch Kessig (which can give Reverent Hunter trample) is a great spot to be in
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P.S. I'm definitely going to try out BTE in the Visionary slots. The trade off of card advantage vs. explosiveness may be absolutely worth it in the 2-drop slot.
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Current Decks/Archetypes
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What's so hard right now for me is I don't know which deck I want to play. I want to play them all!
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
That is AWESOME!!! You all know how much I like new cards
Congrats!! If you are on here please let us know how things went.
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Also, just to kinda end the discussion for the time being...it looks like for now that Tooth and Nail is staying under the "Nykthos Green" umbrella for the a little while.
I totally understand the argument by some that it can be played without Nykthos (although not as good
I do understand if they are broken up in the future; but we do tend to play a very similar "core of cards" and the big difference is how the deck wins. For now; I will make sure to update the Primer tomorrow evening to ensure that both variants are highlighted and shown equal respect in the primer.
Darn it...this makes me want to try this now
I'm just like Grull_Me though...I own every good (and many that are truly awful) "Green Devotion" card. That is one of the downsides to playing devotion...it opens up so many options
I looked at Oversoul but I think vorapede might be better but that might just be my meta
On Primeval Titan
This discussion has come up a few times before throughout the years Devotion has been on here; but the general discussion ends up with the idea that Primeval Titan is a great card that can be amazing in the right devotion deck...it just doesn't necessarily have to be played in every devotion deck.
It's kinda up to each person whether they feel it is worth it or not. It is one of the best 5-7 CMC options (may be the best); but there are others close in power level that are playable. Those stating that they don't care for Prime Time are aware it fetches Nykthos and Kessig Wolf Run. There are just some lists/players that would rather the 5-6 drop either fetch/generate another creature/non-land permanent, have a triggered use that can be triggered multiple times, etc. It just depends on the list's goals/win-conditions.
I would NEVER tell someone not to play Primeval Titan. I just think that if you are going to play Primeval Titan, it should be one of your main "Win Conditions" (i.e. a focus of the deck).
On Mana Problems
I put this inside of Spoiler Tag simply because I don't currently play Kiora (so it's kind of a moot point) and it's more of a general discussion on mana bases in devotion (as I had thoughts about the Trial deck that were interesting to me) and how to "smooth" out/fix bases/what has worked in testing etc...
Without any detail on how long or how many actual matches you played with my prior list (you said you "picked up up once" so I understand that it wasn't much) I don't want to get too far into it. I was interested with your comment on the mana though...You had indicated in the past said you found no issues with the mana for the Trial-winning deck, stating:
"...The mana base is not bad, and remember there are 4 Utopia Spawl 4 Arbor Elf and 3 Oath of Nissa to smooth out early mana problems, mana is not an issue with this deck I promise. I tested it a lot, and mana problems are seriously my worst nightmare in Magic and I prefer to play the least amount of nonbasic lands as I can to ensure I can play my spells when I want to..."
The Trial deck played 3x Nykthos, a Radiant Fountain, a Boseiju, Who Shelters All (which also comes into play tapped), and a Kessig Wolf Run (as well as another come into play tapped land and non-forest Raging Ravine). At the time I honestly worried that the mana base for the Trial deck was a little "greedy" because of that; but I took your word for it as someone who had played it enough to know.
In my prior list, however the only cards in the main that even require a color other than green were Planeswalkers (which as you know Oath is a huge benefit for) and I play a set of Birds of Paradise on top of a full set of Utopia Sprawl/Arbor Elf and Oath of Nissa...with no come into play tapped lands. I never ran into consistent issues with mana fixing due to this; but I do appreciate the feedback that it is something to monitor.
Having said all of the above...I don't have to worry as much any more; as my current list doesn't play Kiora
I do think as a general "theory", however, that the only place we can really spread ourselves into a third color is with Planeswalkers (due to Oath of Nissa). Even with Oath, however, I do believe you have to have multiple sources for the color (at least 10-12 of Oath, Utopia Sprawl, Birds, Fertile Ground, and/or Abundant Growth). Having said this, I've run many lists with 3 different color walkers with traditionally 12 of the aforementioned fixing pieces and had no issues with mana.
I have been lazy and I haven't posted my list in a while (as I've been testing over a dozen different 1-of's relatively "hard core")....but Kiora has been removed. Once I was down to 1x Spreading Seas with no other blue cards in the board...she just wasn't worth the splash any more (even with Oath) as the pain I could save was worth it. So in a roundabout way, your concern was resolved!
I do still LOVE Spreading Seas and Negate-style cards (they have worked well in the past); so I can't promise blue will never be back
On Woodland Bellower
Bellower falls in line with my core philosophy on the way I prefer to play Green Devotion. I've always felt that Green Devotion was at its best when it was somewhat "focused" on permanent-based card draw/advantage. When possible, the vast majority of this draw/advantage should come from creatures. Bellower fits this philosophy. It provides an up-the-curve means of flexible card advantage via permanents (i.e. that puts more devotion on the board). It facilitates a few functions:
1. Can turn games around where you are behind - I've had many games where I have a good amount of mana but am not doing much...a Bellower into a Selkie/Witness/Duskwatch can quickly lead to a 3-for-1 or more. We tend to win on "overrun" effects and pump effects; so this gives us options.
2. Can help close out games when we are ahead - A Bellower when way ahead can quickly get things out of control. Even just a Bellower into a Selkie into a Visionary into a Elf can make a Garruk/Craterhoof Lethal the next turn.
3. Bellower is a great permanent-based tutor (not easy to come by). Right now I use him to fetch Scavenging Oozze, Wistful Selkie, Eternal Witness, Reclamation Sage, Loaming Shaman, Kitchen Finks, Duskwatch Recruiter, and in the past have "tutored" for Courser of Kruphix, Tireless Tracker, Fauna Shaman, and a few others...and it will only get better with time.
It is just a great way to continue to "Snowball" the permanents on the board while giving you that added bit of flexibility to get an "answer" where needed in certain situations.
Recent List I've been Testing
The list I've currently been running/testing is:
4x Arbor Elf
3x Birds of Paradise
3x Elvish Visionary
2x Wistful Selkie
3x Eternal Witness
1x Duskwatch Recruiter
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Fairgrounds Warden
1x Polukranos, World Eater
3x Woodland Bellower
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
4x Utopia Sprawl
3x Oath of Nissa
Planeswalker
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
Instant/Sorcery
4x Chord of Calling
Land
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
6x Forest
4x Windswepth Heath
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Temple Garden
It's many many of the same cards I've been playing for some time; but with Chords and a few less walkers. The Reclamation Sage main may become a Genesis Hydra or Walking Ballista (they are all in the 75 so it's not a huge deal).
There is every possibility that Pact can be just as good as Chord in the list (as Witness grabs back Pact too). Chord just has a few uses that are slightly different (instant speed, can grab creatures of different colors, and makes use of Visionaries, Selkies, tokens, etc.)
I've been working on finding the worst main-board match ups to develop the best sideboard. I've actually looked into cards like Trinishpere, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, and Thorn of Amethyst to deal with those decks that essentially just try to go super quick...I also am working with Gaddock Teag and Genesis Hydra....There are also a lot of great Chord options...I'll update the board this week once I feel it is set for the current "top of the overall meta" rather than my local meta.
The point of this particular Devotion deck is to basically to optimize permanent-based card advantage with a particular focus on Garruk Wildspeaker and Eternal Witness. My thoughts were:
1. The win-conditions I tend to prefer are based on "going wide" (Garruk's Overrun, Craterhoof, etc.)
2. I have always preferred permanent-based card advantage; but the issue is that such cards can be "air" if you don't hit a win-con...this was mitigated by Chord of Calling.
3. Chord of Calling essentially turns all of the non-dork creatures (Visionary, Selkie, Bellower, etc.) into mana sources via Convoke.
4. The cards create multiple "links" depending on your mana. A majority of the cards either dig, draw, or tutor for one another so that you can efficiently spend all of the mana you generate on each turn.
I always liked the idea that even just with mana and a Chord, you can Chord for a Witness and recur the Chord for use the next turn (so you turn essentially nothing into something). With this deck, at X=3 you can do this with Witness and at X=6 you can do it with Bellower (Chord for Bellower into Witness to recur the Chord)
The point is that the deck "Snowballs" while having enough "Selection" to deal with the opponent just enough to buy the time needed to overrun them.
I haven't played the deck to say it is "competitive" yet; but I certainly think it can get there. It's not rocket science (as it is mostly just good green cards
Why Chord over Pact?
I assumed this would be the first question that arose based on the recent success of "Pact Devotion" lists.
One of the Blessings or Curses (depending on how you look at it) of Devotion is that we can go MANY different ways with it. While I try to have a general "Feel" and experience with every form of devotion deck so I can help facilitate discussions....I absolutely love that Devotion can be competitive for many different types of play style preferences.
I do think the 4x Pact and 4x BTE lists (what I call the "Aggro Toolbox" Lists) are the fastest Devotion decks. They take advantage of Burning Tree Emissary and Summoner's Pact to get to quickly get to a 6-8 drop creature (generally Primeval Titan, Atarka, and/or Craterhoof). These tend to be best when they focus squarely on hitting a critical mass and Hoof/Overrun on turn 3-4.
I played a Pact list extremely similar to the current popular lists over a year ago (when the meta was a little more aggro or bust). I love the deck. I think it best takes advantage of the following three cards:
1. Burning-Tree Emissary
2. Summoner's Pact
3. Primeval Titan
Obviously, all three are among the best green cards ever printed. Being able to "string" BTE's into a huge turn with a Nykthos is unbelievable (and leads to the turn 3 Craterhoofs that are amazing!). Prime Time's extra lands become HUGE when you have to pay for a Pact the next turn (essentially halving or even nullifying the "downside" to a ZERO COSTED tutor. The deck is great and I don't think a whole lot need changed to be honest.
In honesty, my current Chord list is essentially a slightly slower, more resilient version of the Pact deck.
I had success with the Pact list for some time. My meta, however, became a little more "grindy". More counters and kill spells have shown up relatively consistently for a while. I initially combated the heavy creature removal by playing Super friends decks (they either had to "waste" the removal on tokens I could keep making or their removal was essentially worthless trying to kill a walker.) Walkers are one of the single best permanents you can utilize to create advantage turn after turn. This worked well until many of the decks started playing extremely large extremely efficient creatures that could easily attack through and kill the walkers. This led me to the current iteration I am playing.
When I was playing a Pact list I was a little weak to removal and very weak to board wipes. I had to worry about overextending more and more. A cheap removal spell could cost my paying for the pact, or kill the whole "point" of the pact (i.e. if I "pact" for Prime Time only to have it Pathed, etc.). Often times I would play 5-6 cards within 2 turns only to have the "focus" of those cards removed (or the cards themselves
This, however, does not make the deck "bad". It has sideboard options it can utilize, and its speed sometimes can't be stopped (i.e. the turn 3 wins, etc.). The simple truth is that every deck has its weaknesses (my current list has its own set of weaknesses) and the Pact list at the time had enough weakness that could be exploited that I move away from it. Also, the current pact lists play a few more cards that can help "come back" from early removal. So please don't think I think the deck is "bad". I think it is awesome! It was just that it was bad in MY meta. This is why I tend to focus on more card advantage and more of an "overwhelming" nature that is a little slower.
I do think, however, that with the right board that the Chord list can perform well in the current overall "Modern Meta" (i.e. the top 12 decks) just based on my testing. The Pact list, however, can as well. They have slightly different good/bad match ups and answers; but both compete. I don't see things as "Strictly Better" or worse. Certain cards are better together (i.e. Pact and BTE, Overgrowth and Tooth and Nail, Visionary and Chord, etc.) and certain decks are better/worse given different context/metas/boards.
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I'm really excited to see the renewed interest in Green Devotion, some new faces, and a LOT more steady and strong results in bigger tournaments. I think we are poised to continue to move up in Modern. I can't say we will ever be "Tier 1" (I'm not entirely certain I would want to be)...but I do think we can be Tier 2 at some point with the right set of circumstances and cards/lists.
Wouldn't another Oath of Nissa or even Elvish Visionary be better ?
I would probably cut Joraga Treespeaker for another Bird.
Are Chameleon Colossus and Whisperwood Elemental better than Thragtusk or Obstinate Baloth/Polukranos, World Eater/Thrun, the Last Troll in the maindeck ?
Btw, what is the opinion on Elderscale Wurm in one of the "flex-fatty" slots as sort of a creature version of Worship ?
I'd love to hear how Whisperwood has played. I'd love to play one of them (especially if the meta allows it) as we are one of the few decks that can really take advantage of it...
To answer the question about Abundant Growth...Abundant Growth is a great Devotion card. It fixes, replaces itself, and adds one Devotion. It pays for itself both via Devotion (mana) and in cards. Michael Jacobs said he preferred it to nearly all other similar cards. There are some fun things you Can do with fetches and Witness (put the Growth on a Fetch, draw a card, crack the Fetch, play Witness recurring the Growth; put it on another land, draw a card) and I feel course craziness with Cloudstone...but even just by itself it is a good card.
I've played it in the past and really like it. I often play a 1-2 of Growth in decks where I feel fixing is needed and/or the deck feels "complete" and I don't want to mess the curve up. It's a great card early without being a poor top deck late as well.
Elderscale Wurm has been spectacular in multiple metas. This actually may be one of the better times for it. I don't know if it's best in the main or board; but I certainly think it's worth it in the 75 right now.
With your dip into Green/White have you considered putting Thune Feeder into the 75 as a way to just declare "I win"? We generate more mana than many other decks would, so we could pull it off faster. Bellower+Chord can fetch Feeder and Chord can fetch Archangel of Thune at instant speed.
Also I love the idea of Gaddock Teeg. I absolutely hate playing against Tron at the moment with any modern deck and with the rise of it at my LGS I find the idea of putting a couple of Teeg's in the sideboard would be worthwhile. In the instance of boarding in Teeg's, would you run a full 4 Genesis Hydra to replace the Chords?
Why do you have three copies of Elvish Visionary and 2 Copies of Selkie? I get that Selkie is a great Green Devotion as well as a cantrip, but I don't quite understand the Visionary over the BTE. I understand that it's more justifiable with Chord in the deck, and it's a two drop not 3-drop, but it's still worse with Nykthos.
Also, it would be great if you posted your sideboard as well.
In what matchup do you bring in Loaming Shaman? Dredge has died out of the meta. It can be good against some decks like Bant Retreat if you can chord for it at instant speed., and perhaps a little bit decent vs Grixis.
I'm not sure I ever cast Pact for BTE, I definitely have for Arbor Elf, but I do it with extreme caution because I don't want to throw the game away to a single removal spell disallowing me the mana for Pact.
Chord is very interesting, also because it can potentially allow for powerful non green creatures like Magus of the Moon. I'm excited to mess test it myself, even if it it turns out that I don't think it's better than Pact. The fact that you put a creature on the bf at instant speed is what makes it seem better than Pact, especially vs counterspells. Unfortunately it turns on opponents Grafdigger's Cages.
Some thoughts on other cards:
Gaddock Teeg seems to hurt our plan too much, no matter how we build our deck, because it hates on Command, Garruk, Chord, Genesis and Tooth and Nail.
It could be good if we are far enough ahead on board in certain matchups. There are other ways to deal with tron (i.e Acidic Slime, Terastodon, Crumble to Dust)
I think trying to add the Thune Feeder combo is doing too much. I don't play Abzan Chord, but I think those deck are focus on the comboes, it's not really a secondary plan. They have 4x Chord and 4x Eldritch Evolution to find the combo pieces. We win by beating down, finding hate creatures, and Hoofing.
Elderscale Wurm is dealt with by casting a single Path to Exile, or an Ugin/Karn and more. Obviously it's an autowin against some decks but not enough good ones IMO. Well maybe against Death's Shadow if they can't make us sac it to Lily, and also perhaps Grixis Control. I think this is definitely a meta call.
That list with Rishkar, Peema Renegade and Rishkar's Expertise that placed first at the Wyoming TCG States is very unique!
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/598606#online
It's seemed very strange to me at first, and still does to an extent, but after I thought about it more, Joraga could definitely be good in certain situations as well as Rishkar. Also, Rishkar is potentially amazing with Nissa! I don't like Joraga too much, maybe as a 1 to fetch with Bellower.
Rishkar's Expertise seems like a strange card, and it can't cast any of our fatties, but I suppose drawing 2-3 cards at the very least off of a small creature and then casting a Primal Command or a Plansewalker is a pretty decent play. It's definitely a lot of value.
How do we feel about Cavern of Souls and Boseiju, Who Shelters All for the control matchups? Obviously Boseiju is pointless in the Pact lists.
There's so many different possibilities with this deck, and trying to find the optimal deck is definitely an enjoyable yet difficult puzzle to solve, and I love the deck because of it. I love playing fatties and having an arsenal of toolbox creatures. Also, it's the kind of deck that can be immensely improved with any new creature spoiled.
Below I've compiled a list of any Green creatures I thought could potentially see play in a Bellower deck that you can reference in the future.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I'd like to add that when searching for ate creatures, it makes sense to look at the most similar deck in the format to our which is Abzan.
Unfortunately, a lot of their hate cards come with White mana symbols like Kataki and Ethersworn Canonist, Tidehollow Sculler, Sin Collector and Selfless Spirit. In a Chord Devotion deck, these cards are definitely more more justifiable, but I'm not sure if they are completely justifiable.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I don't think you understand the point of Thragtusk. It's not meant to be played against decks running Anger of the Gods or wraths effects so much as it's meant to gain life vs Burn, and be a good value creature for aggressive creature decks that we can get down fairly quickly to mitigate the life loss.
I would compare Whisperwood to a card like Dauntless Escort. It helps against Wrath effects, but I like Dauntless because it can be fetched with Bellower.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I'm surprised you've never cast Pact to get a BTE. I remember many a turns where I would use Pact to "String together" BTE's to play something ridiculously huge early (and in many instances just win the game). It is, however, a gamble (and can only be done against certain opponents and often if and when they tap our early).
**P.S. Yes it is 61 cards. I apologize I didn't mention that. In some builds that go higher up the curve (where hitting land drops feels a little more important) I will actually play 21 lands instead of 20. I've found, however, that it just plays better with 21 lands and 61 cards than it does with either 20 lands or 39 non-lands (generally one less bird when I've tried to cut in the past). **
Loaming Shaman was a more prevalent/powerful card when Dredge was all the rage. I liked the flexibility of having the option to shuffle back in other cards of my choosing from my graveyard into my library (i.e. if Craterhoof or another tutor target was removed earlier in the game)...For most lists, the best graveyard hate is Scavenging Ooze...but Loaming Shaman definitely has its pros.
On Joraga Treespeaker
Michael Jacobs (the professional player who worked on this deck for a quite some time a years ago) REALLY liked Treespeaker. He utilized it in every devotion deck he made. His thoughts on the card are :
"...Provides a key function in being able to produce two mana from a single card and is critical in games you mulligan. The one-turn windup before Treespeaker produces mana restricts their number in the deck to two since drawing multiples can be too slow. Be aware the level up ability is something your opponent can respond to, so cast cards like Utopia Sprawl and Burning-Tree Emissary beforehand so that your whole turn does not get blanked by a card like Lightning Bolt or Path to Exile. Joraga Treespeaker is also an excellent mana sink because a 1/4 can block quite well. It's often better to level up turn 2 if you have nothing else to do, as attacking for one is not as useful as allowing Arbor Elf to produce two green later in the game..."
I have played it in the past, and I do think the ability to produce two mana become a very big deal when it works. I haven't tested it enough to claim to be "proficient" with it (as I generally play 2-3 colors so Birds is needed for fixing) but I do think it has the potential to be among the best dorks in mono-green variants.
On Evolutionary Leap
Yeah...it would take a LOT more study on the Evolutionary Leap front.
I've wanted to build an Enchantment-based Devotion build for some time. I really think there could be something there between Courser, Eidolon, Oath, Utopia Sprawl, Fertile Ground, and even Nylea.
Evolutionary Leap just feels like a great way to (a) turn a smaller creature (i.e. a Visionary, etc.) that may have already done it's ETB thing into another (hopefully larger) creature. It also is a GREAT answer to spells that exile (so we can get the card into the graveyard instead), removal, and even boardwipes. I've thought about playing it in the board if and when boardwipes become more prevalent even in non-enchantment based decks.
Another card I've played that I honestly really like is Lignify. It's a great on-color way to nulify an opponent's creature while also giving us devotion. It was a portion of the enchantment deck I wanted to play. It just a great green and permanent means to "stopping" an opponent's creature...it doesn't remove them completely; but it does give us one more devotion...anywho thought I'd point it out while I was talking about my attempts with Enchantment based Devotion decks.
Exactly...Gaddock Teeg would come in if I made a more "transformational" portion of the board. This would include at least three copies of Genesis Hydra in place of Chord of Calling...I've also tested ideas such as Thalia and Thorn of Amethyst, etc....where essentially you get "rewarded" for playing only Creature spells. I haven't tested it to a point where I feel comfortable saying "this is the board" and Chord obviously opens up options for great creature hosers a well (Eidolon of Rhetoric, etc.)...
I've also been working with Heartwood Storyteller in the same vain (as it can be tutored with Bellower). I think the downside of them drawing off a Garruk or potential Chord may be worth it (but the enchantments do hurt a little...but you don't HAVE to play them). As with any symetrical effect; as long as it hurts them way more than it hurts us than its ok for a few cards to go "against" it or "nombo".
I don't know if an efficient plan is there...but a vast majority of our worst match ups are the unfair spell-based decks...so if we can find a consistent way to hose them we are in a GREAT position.
I did look into the Thune/Spike Feeder combo. I even tested a deck that was heavy on the combo (like three copies of feeder and two Archangels). It is definitely a viable possibility. The funny thing is that Walking Ballista turns the combo into infinite damage too (as with a Ballista on board it gets "infinite" +1/+1 counters that can be converted to damage...so yes I have looked into this and still have a version that focuses on the combo.
With this deck, however, I felt like I should start with a focus on Garruk and Craterhoof as the win-cons. I think there is absolute potential with the combo...but that the deck would look likely have to look a little different. I will, however, try to add one of each and see if literally just a copy of each is worth it. It well may be.
Duskwatch has been in there simply because I find myself in games where I have a TON of mana and wanted to tutor for a sink that makes that mana worthwhile to building back up. Duskwatch is good because at minimum it is a body early if you draw it (that can flip in certain cases to become a cost-reduction tool) but in the late game can be a way for you to tutor for a creature that can refill your hand. In instances where the opponent is able to wipe your board but you still have a good amount of mana (and a few Utopia sprawls, an oath, etc.)
Basically, it is a card that isn't dead early; but can be very beneficial late (or in situations where you literally just have some extra mana to spend). A big way we win is being able to spend all of the mana we can generate each turn and mana sinks are one of our best way to do so.
It is, however, best as a 1-of. I don't mind drawing it early; but multiples are not needed because I can tutor for it if I absolutely need to.
Fauna Shaman is good in the slot as well. I'll have to test both.
On Abzan Cards
You are right that we can look into Abzan and even Kiki Chord for potential options...but you are spot on that we do play a little differently than those decks as well. I do like cards like Canonist, Kataki, Eidolon, Magus of the Moon etc. that can work as creature-based "hosers". It just matters on how easily they can be hard cast when not Chorded (and how the final board will be built).
On Cavern/Boseiju
I've always felt Bosiju had a place in decks that played a large amount of Primal Command and/or Genesis Wave...and in the other deck's case also Rishkar's Expertise. It's also great for Tooth and Nail to ensure their namesake card is uncounterable. In most of these builds, the only sorcery spells they play are 5+ and are very important cards. For those such decks, I do think Boseiju is worth it (at minimum in the board for when playing against control).
I'm not as certain on Cavern simply because we have so many different creature types.
On Rishkar List
I was SOOOO happy when Rishkar's Expertise was printed. It is an overtly powerful card for sure. At the time: I thought it could make a Reverent Hunter deck (another Bellower target) a possibility) as you could consistently draw 5-10+ cards and inevitably cast a Garruk Wildspeaker or Kiora, etc. (and walker than untaps Nykthos) to untap and play all of the cards you just drew...
The deck was good. The problem came about when it began to feel like Expertise was kind of "win more". It could close games out for sure; but a lot of the times it won I felt like I already had a strong position...and I tend to question myself when playing cards like this with the following:
1. If Rishkar's Expertise was a different 6-drop...would I still have won the game?
2. If so, are the downsides for Expertise (needing a creature to cast for full potential, not being a permanent, etc.) higher or lower than the downsides of other cards that would fill the slot it is in.
I can't say I've tested it in a list like the list posted. There is every possibility that simply drawing 3 cards and casting another 5-drop is absolutely worth it (sounds amazing just writing it out
P.S. Awesome Bellower List...at one point I literally went through Gatherer and looked at every single 1-3 drop, non-legendary, green creature ever printed and made a similar list...it's a rabbit hole; but a fun one!
Firstly, how did you multiquote like that? I can't seem to do it efficiently.
I haven't tested Whisperwood, but it seems like Manifesting creatures isn't great. You don't get the ETB effects for flipping them.
It's true that even in a Pact deck we can't get a enormous Palukranos activation the turn it comes into play, but I like it better than Atarka becuase it's cheap, and can potentially do more dmg, and be even larger.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Out of the Bellower targets I compiled, I think that the creatures with the most potential are Vexing Shaman, Reverent Hunter, Dungrove Elder Dauntless Escort and Troll Ascetic. Dungrove Elder an get huge, although we aren't land ramping, so it will take a few turns for him to be enormous, but he's hard to deal with. Likewise, Troll Ascetic is even harder to deal with and provides one more devotion, an even better Kessig target. Probably just better than Elder. Reverent Hunter will be massive as soon as he hits the bf. He dies to removal, but they need to answer him or he will close out the game fast, especially with a Kessig. Vexing Shaman is a 2 devotion 2 drop that can nullify all of our opponents countespells.
The 1 Devotion from Visionary makes it seem much worse than BTE. The potential explosiveness that BTE provides seems better than drawing a single card.
This is the current Bellower Devotion list I'm testing
Creature 23
4 Arbor Elf
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
2 Eternal Witness
2 Woodland Bellower
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Primeval Titan
1 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Oath of Nissa
Instant 4
4 Chord of Calling
Land 21
5 Forest
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Temple Garden
2 Stomping Ground
1 Kessig Wolf Run
Planeswalker 5
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
1 Heartwood Storyteller
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Terastodon
1 Thragtusk
1 Hornet Queen
1 Dauntless Escort
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Troll Ascetic
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Sudden Shock
2 Creeping Corrosion
Some things I like about the Bellower version. It definitely allows for some value, and a grindier game. We can now run more hate creatures that can be fetched with Bellower. So we get a big body and a hate card as well. The small creatures are also not too hard to Chord for in the early stages of the game when it matters most.
I'm haven't actually played with Heartwood Storyteller, but I'm not convinced it's good yet.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
You are absolutely right too. I currently run two in my board (as it is surprisingly good against decks like Eldrazi and even Death's Shadow as they struggle when anyone has creatures bigger than theirs) but I would LOVE to get one in the main.
And you are right...having a Prime Time to fetch Kessig (which can give Reverent Hunter trample) is a great spot to be in
_____
P.S. I'm definitely going to try out BTE in the Visionary slots. The trade off of card advantage vs. explosiveness may be absolutely worth it in the 2-drop slot.