I've got 2 clique in my "maybeboard", I've had better luck with extirpate + thoughtseize against the decks I want tseize but I can see the versatility of clique against non-combo decks.
Question: does anyone extract DS if it ends up in the yard? I haven't, but I feel like knocking out 30-50% of their threat count could be strong.
It's something I've been thinking about but haven't found enough cards to cut to make it worth bringing in.
I actually really prefer extirpate. In our deck, I don't know why surgical is ever the "right" call. The amount of times I've had someone respond to surgical has been enough of a warning to me that I want split second. Especially against company, storm (they try going off inresp), Ad naus goes for it, dredge cracks a fetch or uses neonate to instant speed draw and pick the dredger up (if they're experienced and leave neonate in play for the 2-4-1), cheeri0s tries to go off inresp, snapcaster targeting surgical's target in control mirrors, every once in awhile a savvy opponent will exile their own yard inresp to surgical in order to save their combo pieces (relic in scapeshift/Tron serves this purpose), and multiple other reasons. We should always have the mana open anyway, so there's no reason in my opinion to play surgical here. Just the thoughts I've had on it.
@annihilator: I was just wondering if anyone had tried it, but the discard point is valid (as is PtE point). Not gonna try it tomorrow then. 30-40 people show up on Tuesday's and I almost always play 1 shadow player.
@espershardmage: what's your 75 look like?
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I'm on this for the moment. I plan on cutting a Snap for 4th Verdict MD, which will let me cut Wrath in the SB. Don't know what I'll slot in there yet. The Thoughtseizes will become Cliques. And I'm not sure about the 1x Snare with only 2 Snapcaster. Need to track it and see how often it's useful and how often it's just dead. Right now it's nice because it allows for a bit of a toolbox feel with the 3 Snaps.
I've enjoyed Extraction, but haven't actually tried Extirpate. I'm absolutely biased by my own experiences, though, as T2 Extraction/Snap/Extraction is somsthing that's been GG for me against Dredge and T2 Brutality taking one of two Loams and seeing Pierce and Negate allowed me to T3 Extract Loam, decline to pay for Pierce, Snap-Extract, Snare the Negate. Not having to pay even B for it opens a lot of doors. (Though, again, I am admittedly speaking from incomplete information.)
I've actually been unimpressed with the sb Fatal Push, but I'm scared to remove it when running into BW Eldrazi is a possibility. It's prolly also good vs. Company, but other things do the job there.
In general, I actually think that Extirpate may be better than surgical, but ironically, I have the Surgicals and not Extirpates. The reasoning for Surg before was to GQ a Tron land and Surg it immediately (ie, with no mana available), but seeing as most lists have dropped the GQs for the most part, Extirpate may just be a strict upgrade.
I feel like BW Eldrazi can hit us hard if they're on the tax game plan, if not then I feel it's strictly worse than Eldrazi Tron. Strangler will rarely have a target, displacer becomes all but worthless, and they're playing fewer ways to power out T2/3 TKS/Smasher that is so backbreaking. Not that the deck is bad by any means - just think we should always fear taxes, because we essentially have to t4/5 wrath to get anywhere in that game.
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The misc slots will likely include 2 negates and 2 leylines (not sure which ones I want main yet).
I've been thinking about a copy of anguished unmaking as my last board slot, as it reasonably answers plenty of things we're scared of. I'm not totally sold on it, though.
Otherwise, dispel or a second purge are whats at the top of my list.
I've yet to see any convincing arguments to switch away from the build I've been running (snares, zenith, 2 snap, 0 serum).
I feel that snare is actually reasonably positioned right now, hitting goyfs/flayers/snaps out of shadow variants, hitting pretty much the entire vizier deck, several of the important spells out of dredge, as well as being the same old allstar vs jund/junk, affinity, and burn.
Missing eldrazi and tron is a problem, but IMO, its not significant enough to really bother me.
Choosing between negate and leyline in the main is mostly down to which deck I think will be the most represented: eldrazi tron or shadow. I feel its pretty reasonable to narrow it down to primarily these two.
Any thoughts are always appreciated
I might be playing esper in vegas this weekend
I've been thinking about a copy of anguished unmaking as my last board slot, as it reasonably answers plenty of things we're scared of. I'm not totally sold on it, though.
I've been considering Unmaking as well. I don't think this is the correct meta for it with so many aggressive decks running around, but in the more open meta of a large tournament, I think it's criminally underplayed by our pilots.
I like that list Cody. I'd be MB leyline at Vegas. DS, Abzan, Storm, and multiple other top tiered decks are hurt. That's where I'd be. Grixis DS and abzan combo are likely most represented, Eldrazi Tron and storm followed by Affinity and burn. Only deck that completely disregards it G1 is Affinity.
3 extraction effects with 2 snap - care to share how that's performing?
Edit: does anyone remember hive mind combo? Wonder how that deck would do these days. Turn 5 free wins
3 extractions w 2 snaps performs reasonably well, but tbh I'm considering switching to cliques/spellbomb. Also keeps missing my 3. snap, wven thoughI only played 3 for a couple of weeks. I think the perfect number of snaps is 2.5.
So a successful stream tonight, I ended 4-1 after a weird 1-3 league.
I played the same list as my previous post, which only changed the cantrip slots from spreading seas to shadow of dobut as both a throwback to the original list and a way to fight coco.... it was decent I think as long as you have some type of cantrip in those slots its fine. SB is solid as is, each card over performed when I seen them in their respective matchups.
@TheAnnihilator0798: Thank you for the rundown. So it absolutely seems like Leyline would be the way to go in my local
meta then. It most consists of
a couple burn decks, a couple DS decks, a UB fairies deck, a few BGx decks, Eldrazi Tron, and one 4c
saheeli deck.
Follow up question: If I am running two Leylines in the Main and I know that my opponent is playing burn or like BGx
midrange, how important is it that I have leyline in my starting hand? Is it worth mulling to get?
Is it worth mulling to 5?
@PimpDonny: So you are using Vendilion as a straight up replacement for Thoughtseize then? But you are saying
that it is more than just a matter of preference; in your opinion Vendilion is objectively better
than Thoughtseize as it both fits our game plan better while simultaneously being more versatile as
well?
Disclaimer: I am a total Esper noob and haven't played MTG at all since Theros came out. I hope you guys don't
mind me picking your brains a bit :).
My thoughts on mulliganing with 2 leylines in my deck:
Ill never go really hard for it, throwing away otherwise good hands.
I am more likely to throw away borderline hands, especially if Im also getting a scry/am on the draw.
Imo, vendilion clique is a preferable choice. Its an instant, it can target us to cycle something, and it has a body. I play thoughtseize because of extractions, and the 1 cmc.
I really have liked extrqction effects in the matchups theyre good in, and they tend to be good in multiples, thus 3.
I only play 2 snap because I really believe the card is not that great for us. It isnt terrible, obviously, but its primary reason for inclusion is because we dont have the card pool to otherwise play redundant effects.
Donny I shamelessly copied your list with some different sideboard cards last week but made the shadow of doubt sub as well. So far it's been ok for me but I haven't beeb super impressed with it...actually thinking of swapping to a pair of anticipates.
At what point does it become a good idea on MTGO to add in the amalek special 2x maindeck leyline surprise? I think it's around 30% now between DS+GBx+Scapeshift+Burn...
Back on Esper tonight after straying away to jeskai control and ur storm for the Charlotte open and going a combined 1-8. I feel like karma got me bad. It was not fun.
Im actually thinking about moving 2 of the nihil spellbombs md to free up 2 slots in the sb.
MD leylines are not out of the question with the amount of discard and burn out there on modo tho.
I was considering Spellbombs, but decided not to run them, even in the sideboard. Of course if you're running something like Shadow of Doubt or Remand maindeck, then I think they'd be strictly better.
My problem is that the card doesn't solve any problems or even make it hard for an opponent to win, with the exception of a deck like Living End. I've played plenty of Dredge in Legacy, and graveyard sweepers in general are minor speedbumps; we have to draw multiple copies for it to be effective. Against Death's Shadow it counters half of a Kolaghan's Command (not really since they'll use the Shock) or half a Snapcaster Mage, but doesn't work towards locking them out of the game. And let's not be naiive and think Tasigur gives a damn about a Nihil Spellbomb. Think of it this way, if they Thoughtseize you, how likely are they to take a Nihil Spellbomb? Esper Charm, Logic Knot, Revelation, even a Path to Exile is likely a better card against them, yet we're using sideboard slots for these.
Maybe I'm wrong and I should have actually ran them through their paces, but I'm giving Detention Sphere a shot and that card ironically is better against Grixis Shadow and possibly even Dredge. I have 2 Sphere, 2 Halo, 2 Night of Souls' Betrayal post-board, so I'm hoping their Abrupt Decays get overloaded and their Nature's Claims countered. Meh. Sphere also is a solid against Eldrazi Tron, which I wasn't getting from Engineered Explosives.
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It's something I've been thinking about but haven't found enough cards to cut to make it worth bringing in.
@annihilator: I was just wondering if anyone had tried it, but the discard point is valid (as is PtE point). Not gonna try it tomorrow then. 30-40 people show up on Tuesday's and I almost always play 1 shadow player.
@espershardmage: what's your 75 look like?
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4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
2 hallowed fountain
2 watery grave
3 island
1 plains
1 swamp
1 ghost quarter
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Glacial Fortress
1 godless shrine
1 Mystic Gate
4 path to exile
2 Fatal Push
3 supreme verdict
Permission:
4 cryptic command
3 logic knot
1 Spell Snare
1 Negate
Card Draw:
4 esper charm
4 think twice
2 sphinx's revelation
3 Snapcaster Mage
Other:
1 White Sun's Zenith
2 Runed Halo
2 Leyline
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Fatal Push
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Celestial Purge
1 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Wrath of God
1 NoSB
I'm on this for the moment. I plan on cutting a Snap for 4th Verdict MD, which will let me cut Wrath in the SB. Don't know what I'll slot in there yet. The Thoughtseizes will become Cliques. And I'm not sure about the 1x Snare with only 2 Snapcaster. Need to track it and see how often it's useful and how often it's just dead. Right now it's nice because it allows for a bit of a toolbox feel with the 3 Snaps.
I've enjoyed Extraction, but haven't actually tried Extirpate. I'm absolutely biased by my own experiences, though, as T2 Extraction/Snap/Extraction is somsthing that's been GG for me against Dredge and T2 Brutality taking one of two Loams and seeing Pierce and Negate allowed me to T3 Extract Loam, decline to pay for Pierce, Snap-Extract, Snare the Negate. Not having to pay even B for it opens a lot of doors. (Though, again, I am admittedly speaking from incomplete information.)
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In general, I actually think that Extirpate may be better than surgical, but ironically, I have the Surgicals and not Extirpates. The reasoning for Surg before was to GQ a Tron land and Surg it immediately (ie, with no mana available), but seeing as most lists have dropped the GQs for the most part, Extirpate may just be a strict upgrade.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
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My list right now looks like:
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
2 hallowed fountain
2 watery grave
1 mystic gate
1 sunken ruins
3 island
2 plains
1 swamp
2 ghost quarter
4 esper charm
2 sphinx's revelation
4 path to exile
2 fatal push
3 supreme verdict
3 spell snare
3 logic knot
4 cryptic command
2 snapcaster mage
1 white sun's zenith
3 thoughtseize
2 surgical extraction
1 extirpate
2 runed halo
2 blessed alliance
1 celestial purge
1 wrath of god
3 misc
The misc slots will likely include 2 negates and 2 leylines (not sure which ones I want main yet).
I've been thinking about a copy of anguished unmaking as my last board slot, as it reasonably answers plenty of things we're scared of. I'm not totally sold on it, though.
Otherwise, dispel or a second purge are whats at the top of my list.
I've yet to see any convincing arguments to switch away from the build I've been running (snares, zenith, 2 snap, 0 serum).
I feel that snare is actually reasonably positioned right now, hitting goyfs/flayers/snaps out of shadow variants, hitting pretty much the entire vizier deck, several of the important spells out of dredge, as well as being the same old allstar vs jund/junk, affinity, and burn.
Missing eldrazi and tron is a problem, but IMO, its not significant enough to really bother me.
Choosing between negate and leyline in the main is mostly down to which deck I think will be the most represented: eldrazi tron or shadow. I feel its pretty reasonable to narrow it down to primarily these two.
Any thoughts are always appreciated
I think it's a good tool; i side it in about 2/3 of the top MUs right now. But it's difficult to quantify realistically.
I've been considering Unmaking as well. I don't think this is the correct meta for it with so many aggressive decks running around, but in the more open meta of a large tournament, I think it's criminally underplayed by our pilots.
3 extraction effects with 2 snap - care to share how that's performing?
Edit: does anyone remember hive mind combo? Wonder how that deck would do these days. Turn 5 free wins
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Leyline is my personal fave, I like that nihil is also one sided though
What's your SB look like now?
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I played the same list as my previous post, which only changed the cantrip slots from spreading seas to shadow of dobut as both a throwback to the original list and a way to fight coco.... it was decent I think as long as you have some type of cantrip in those slots its fine. SB is solid as is, each card over performed when I seen them in their respective matchups.
Esper draw go Control!
Twitch stream: http://www.twitch.tv/pimpdonny
meta then. It most consists of
a couple burn decks, a couple DS decks, a UB fairies deck, a few BGx decks, Eldrazi Tron, and one 4c
saheeli deck.
Follow up question: If I am running two Leylines in the Main and I know that my opponent is playing burn or like BGx
midrange, how important is it that I have leyline in my starting hand? Is it worth mulling to get?
Is it worth mulling to 5?
@PimpDonny: So you are using Vendilion as a straight up replacement for Thoughtseize then? But you are saying
that it is more than just a matter of preference; in your opinion Vendilion is objectively better
than Thoughtseize as it both fits our game plan better while simultaneously being more versatile as
well?
Disclaimer: I am a total Esper noob and haven't played MTG at all since Theros came out. I hope you guys don't
mind me picking your brains a bit :).
Ill never go really hard for it, throwing away otherwise good hands.
I am more likely to throw away borderline hands, especially if Im also getting a scry/am on the draw.
Imo, vendilion clique is a preferable choice. Its an instant, it can target us to cycle something, and it has a body. I play thoughtseize because of extractions, and the 1 cmc.
I really have liked extrqction effects in the matchups theyre good in, and they tend to be good in multiples, thus 3.
I only play 2 snap because I really believe the card is not that great for us. It isnt terrible, obviously, but its primary reason for inclusion is because we dont have the card pool to otherwise play redundant effects.
At what point does it become a good idea on MTGO to add in the amalek special 2x maindeck leyline surprise? I think it's around 30% now between DS+GBx+Scapeshift+Burn...
MD leylines are not out of the question with the amount of discard and burn out there on modo tho.
Esper draw go Control!
Twitch stream: http://www.twitch.tv/pimpdonny
My problem is that the card doesn't solve any problems or even make it hard for an opponent to win, with the exception of a deck like Living End. I've played plenty of Dredge in Legacy, and graveyard sweepers in general are minor speedbumps; we have to draw multiple copies for it to be effective. Against Death's Shadow it counters half of a Kolaghan's Command (not really since they'll use the Shock) or half a Snapcaster Mage, but doesn't work towards locking them out of the game. And let's not be naiive and think Tasigur gives a damn about a Nihil Spellbomb. Think of it this way, if they Thoughtseize you, how likely are they to take a Nihil Spellbomb? Esper Charm, Logic Knot, Revelation, even a Path to Exile is likely a better card against them, yet we're using sideboard slots for these.
Maybe I'm wrong and I should have actually ran them through their paces, but I'm giving Detention Sphere a shot and that card ironically is better against Grixis Shadow and possibly even Dredge. I have 2 Sphere, 2 Halo, 2 Night of Souls' Betrayal post-board, so I'm hoping their Abrupt Decays get overloaded and their Nature's Claims countered. Meh. Sphere also is a solid against Eldrazi Tron, which I wasn't getting from Engineered Explosives.