This list is something I've been working on for about a month solidly, I was playing the "Stock" Esper Control list about a year ago, before switching to USA to fight Eldrazi Winter, Then after the banning went back to Esper Control this time adding in Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek as well as support pieces like, Engineered Explosives and Academy Ruins to the main as well as another copy of EE in the board. With Thopter Sword in the deck my win-rate with the deck increased so much so as winning a GPT beating Infect in the finals, Coming in second at a following GPT losing to the mirror that also had Tron Lands and Crucible Of Worlds and proceeded to lock me out with Ghost Quarter. I then played in PA State Championship and finished top 16 of 82... Later that year I took it to GP Charlotte 2016 and finished Day 1 5-4, not bad for a "bad deck" and my very first GP experience. After this, what I felt was a failed deck, I switched to Grixis Control. Then I left Magic earlier this year and am now coming back. With my first love Esper Control W/Thopter Sword combo included. I would like to hear the feedback on this deck. And if any of you fine gentlemen/ladies would make any changes. So far in my online testing I have yet to lose to DS of any flavor, UW Control, Tron, Company.dec, or Eldrazi of any flavor. Of course I take this with a grain of salt as most pilots online aren't top level and also this deck isn't a known quantity as most people forgot Thopter Sword was even a combo... I'd love to hear questions and ideas about my deck... Please please Drill me and tear this list apart! I want to make it as best as I can and would love it if you guys even tested it out to see how it feels to play and give me some feedback. Thanks!
-ECFIII
What you are experiencing is being the one to ask questions rather than only answering those questions. Although I love esper draw go I cannot imagine myself not playing something proactive in an eternal format as diverse as modern. My current go to deck is jeskai copycat for that very reason.
Anyway thopter/sword is a bit better now that abrupt decay is non existant in tier 1 and barely even in tier 2 decks ever since twin got banned and we got passed the eldrazi, and aggro combo nonsense. I would suggest you take your deck into a bit of a more proactive approach and abuse your artifacts more. Also to take your discussion to another thread because at that point it is a totally different deck but it is better than jamming thopter sword into esper draw go.
@rafiqedh: Hey, and welcome to the thread! Please note that this is the "developing competetive" part of the forum, and this thread is dedicated to the deck "esper draw-go". Even though your deck runs most of our core, it doesnt really play like our deck. While we don't mind theorycrafting, or discussing sacred cows, we really like it when new people read up on the thread. (Also, decks that are only "sort-of" esper draw-go, like "red esper" or epser teachings etc, arent really that interesting to read about for those of us playing the stock list) We usually find ourselves defending our core every few pages, from new players inexperienced in piloting our deck. There is also a primer, thats mostly still relevant. You will find that your card-choices have been discussed (to death) in this thread, so there is certainly a lot of relevant info for you here!
I would like to gently protest against this; it's not like the stock list has been putting up great results, or indeed any results at all AFAIK (maybe a few 5-0s from Donny in comp leagues?) and it's also not like Modern is an unchanging format. It's changed massively since the Primer and indeed since most of the discussions in this thread, due to bannings, unbannings, and new printings. Even assuming a very conservative stock list, surely it can't be right to play the high numbers of Spell Snare that old lists often did (esp after the printing of Fatal Push). Secure the Wastes is probably better than WSZ. etc
Not sure what you're protesting here, mate? My whole post? Pointing out that its a draw-go thread, not tapout/midrange etc? My claim that the primer is mostly relevant?
I would say that it is: Even though the list has changed a bit, and the meta a lot, the reasoning behind card choices are still "mostly relevant". The core hasnt really changed at all, since I started playing esper draw-go a couple of years ago. We have what, 6 flex slots? Note that I havent said anyone should play stock lists from the primer, just that its a good place to start reading up on our deck. Reading the whole thread would give any newbie a lot of insight into why most of us play really similar lists.
Maybe my original post was unclear: I tried to be welcoming, and at the same time point out that this thread is for a specific type of competetive deck. Its interesting to read other peoples experiments with alternative builds, but thats not really why this thread exists, or why we're here. Also, that we're up for discussing anything, but new people should read up on _why_ we're playing the cards we do. The info is there.
If my post was unclear, or seemed unfriendly, I apologize: english isnt my native language.
(Also, I disagree that STW is better than WSZ, I've run both, switched back to wsz. A lot of us play wsz. Its mostly down to meta and personal preference, though. Please lets not have this debate again. Or actually, if anyone has some brilliant new insight, please bring it on! But lets not rehash the same old points of early pressure vs protection from decking ourself)
Last of all: Have a brilliant day, people! Its summer, enjoy it! Currently 10*C here, so we're rocking shorts and eating icecream while enjoying the sun.
In -
Unmaking
Purge
Rest In Peace x2
NoSB
Elspeth
Clique x2
Out -
Push x2
Snap x2
Path x4
I originally had the Knots coming out due to the fact that I'm bringing RIP in and expect them to bring in Leyline of the Void, but the more I think about it, the more I want to do everything I can to avoid an early Walker from landing. Any thoughts?
lol I really love how similar our specific lists are!
I just moved the 2 Runed Halo back to board this week, they weren't as great as I wanted them to be against Tron and Midrange decks, which are slowly taking over my meta (4 abzan, 1 Jund, 2 Rock, 2 fish, 2 ETron 1 GW Tron.... blah)
I figure the MUs it's great against are MUs I should just focus on beating G2/3 anyway (burn, combo, valakut) instead of shaving answers in the MUs im favored
That being said, I think our smallpox MU relies heavily on a late-game token generator because they typically will roll over to 5+ dudes.
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Not sure what you're protesting here, mate? My whole post? Pointing out that its a draw-go thread, not tapout/midrange etc? My claim that the primer is mostly relevant?
I would say that it is: Even though the list has changed a bit, and the meta a lot, the reasoning behind card choices are still "mostly relevant". The core hasnt really changed at all, since I started playing esper draw-go a couple of years ago. We have what, 6 flex slots? Note that I havent said anyone should play stock lists from the primer, just that its a good place to start reading up on our deck. Reading the whole thread would give any newbie a lot of insight into why most of us play really similar lists.
Maybe my original post was unclear: I tried to be welcoming, and at the same time point out that this thread is for a specific type of competetive deck. Its interesting to read other peoples experiments with alternative builds, but thats not really why this thread exists, or why we're here. Also, that we're up for discussing anything, but new people should read up on _why_ we're playing the cards we do. The info is there.
If my post was unclear, or seemed unfriendly, I apologize: english isnt my native language.
(Also, I disagree that STW is better than WSZ, I've run both, switched back to wsz. A lot of us play wsz. Its mostly down to meta and personal preference, though. Please lets not have this debate again. Or actually, if anyone has some brilliant new insight, please bring it on! But lets not rehash the same old points of early pressure vs protection from decking ourself)
Last of all: Have a brilliant day, people! Its summer, enjoy it! Currently 10*C here, so we're rocking shorts and eating icecream while enjoying the sun.
I do not post a lot on MTGSalvation, and whether intended or not when i initially read your post it came across essentially as "if your not on our core and exactly Draw-Go then you should not post here", which is why my post was then immediately removed as it seemed you all have no interest in looking over my list if it did not coincide with your card choices. I also never stated i haven't read the primer, or any of the pages.. I've actually read the primer multiple times including everything that is hidden behind other stuff, I have watched the videos from GreatNate, QTwelve, PimpDonny, Paul Cheon and many others, and searched the thread for thoughts on individual card discussion before i even considered posting my list. I felt my list still held the concept of "Draw-Go" with a few minor changes for my own playstyle and meta, the list has performed Great and i was just looking for other thoughts and opinions. I see other lists posted which are not the exact core of Draw-Go so figured mine would of been OK.. so I was confused. Also, please do not take this reply as a "woe is me" type post or as me trying to complain saying that you were mean to me as that is not it at all. I enjoy the deck and the concept and if my list which is not identical card choices is not welcome, as it is then making everything all "muddled" together that is fine, however when i had said it was not "entirely Draw-Go" i was referring to the fact that based on the primer and other lists I have looked over i had cards that others are not playing Main Board but the design is the same.
Anyone on MTGO find most players tend to keep in loads of removal in post SB games? I find it slightly annoying that I have to cast Esper Charm in mindrot mode before deploying my Baneslayers and inevitably seeing something like TerminateFatal Push getting discarded. White decks keeping in 4 paths...they think if the game goes that long they're going to win?
I think it's actually correct to keep in removal against us, depending on how G1 goes. If we win with Colonnades and they don't see STW or WSZ, it makes sense for them to believe they can actually kill all of our wincons. Couple that with the amount of SB hate a typical deck is packing for control in Modern, and it may just be that the cards they would side in are worse than the alternative.
On a side-note, has anyone tested against the UW deck? I run over my opponents, but control is such a new phenomenon in modern, I don't know if we have a good matchup or if they just don't have the experience with the deck yet.
I'd actually say that if you're playing against an experienced UW player, you will get run over. They have many ways of cutting us off of black, and their wincons are more resilient, not to mention that Jace shrinks our wincons.
@espershardmage: in my experience, we easily run over uw-control. Our CA is just that much better, and we have a better selection of cards.
@rafiqedh: I'm sorry thats how I came across, dude. You'd be amazed how many new players question TT, so I've just started referring people to the primer instead.
It depends on their build. The slow roll style that plays like us with Mb seas and few wincons, pretty tough but Esper Charm discarding 2x is pretty brutal.
We also tend to play more answers while they play more CA on sticks (wall of omens, Resto, 4x snap isn't uncommon)
I've not lost to them, but I also gained most of my competitive MTG experience playing the Caw-Blade mirror for its entirety of existence - sandbagging colonnades early game isn't terrible, timely landdrops aren't as important here because we aren't fighting for mana efficiency as much as we are fighting for card advantage and efficiency - 2/4/1 as much as possible, cryptic is great, expect dispel from SB, surgical/extirpate is a great way to combat counter wars.
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@espershardmage: in my experience, we easily run over uw-control. Our CA is just that much better, and we have a better selection of cards.
@rafiqedh: I'm sorry thats how I came across, dude. You'd be amazed how many new players question TT, so I've just started referring people to the primer instead.
I was not questioning Think Twice, in fact until last night my list was running 4x Think Twice. However I am having some difficulties with the list (loosing all but 1 game last night to an Esper Tokens and a Bant land destruction / aggro list) I have also been told my list would be demolished by our UW control players deck because his has "more threats" even though our lists are almost identical with the exception of him running Seas and me running Charm.
Control mirrors are rarely about card quality and often about the foresight, patience, and decision-making skill of the pilots - more so than any other mirror, in my opinion.
Midrange decks can just land a threat and ride. Aggro can outrace their mirror. Combo can have the nuts.
Control doesn't turn a sharp corner, which means you need a minimum of 4-5 turns planned before you begin the threatening combat sequences. Many control mirrors are lost on the back of becoming the aggressor too early in the game.
As for those series of lost games, those are both tricky MUs for us. Two of the best SB strategies against us are LD and token advantage, so decks focused on that tend to play a rough game.
In the LD game, focus on drawing cards and answering their actual threats (not the LD).
In the token game, you'll pretty much forfeit G1 if you can't get a Colonnade online to start block + removal chains. Once you do that a couple times, they'll try to overcommit to the board - giving you the opportunity to presss a board wipe into their side. Look for Night of Souls Betrayal or Curse of Deaths Hold if this MU is something you expect a lot of.
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@espershardmage: in my experience, we easily run over uw-control. Our CA is just that much better, and we have a better selection of cards.
@rafiqedh: I'm sorry thats how I came across, dude. You'd be amazed how many new players question TT, so I've just started referring people to the primer instead.
I was not questioning Think Twice, in fact until last night my list was running 4x Think Twice. However I am having some difficulties with the list (loosing all but 1 game last night to an Esper Tokens and a Bant land destruction / aggro list) I have also been told my list would be demolished by our UW control players deck because his has "more threats" even though our lists are almost identical with the exception of him running Seas and me running Charm.
I never actually got to see your list, but I'd like to. If you don't feel like it fits the thread, then feel free to PM me. I suspect it isn't too far off tho, if it's playing Think Twice. I can't say I'll have a whole lot of insight to give, however.
Quick question for you guys. I've been mulling over my mainboard choices really hard and it occurred to me that I'm catering towards combo matchups in the main while both never facing one in months and also trying to beat aggro decks. Thus, how crazy is it to toss the AdNaus type match up and build to crush Burn and Company matchups? What mainboards would you all be on if you wanted those matchups to be as favorable as possible?
Quick question for you guys. I've been mulling over my mainboard choices really hard and it occurred to me that I'm catering towards combo matchups in the main while both never facing one in months and also trying to beat aggro decks. Thus, how crazy is it to toss the AdNaus type match up and build to crush Burn and Company matchups? What mainboards would you all be on if you wanted those matchups to be as favorable as possible?
I'd toss the Ad Naus for Burn and Company any day.
I feel like I'm fair against almost all of the field. My 4 MB flex slots are 2 Negate, 2 Blessed Alliance. The 5th flex slot is (for me) constant - 3rd snapcaster, never less!
I'm on 4 PtE, 2 push, 4 CC 3 LK 2 Negate 2 BA 3 S verdict 2 SphRev 1 WSZ 3 Snap 4 Charm 4 TT 26 lands
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Thus, how crazy is it to toss the AdNaus type match up and build to crush Burn and Company matchups? What mainboards would you all be on if you wanted those matchups to be as favorable as possible?
This, to me, is extremely interesting. I'm curious to see what you come up with!
I'd play spell snare if I wanted Burn and company to be rollovers. 3 spell snare 2 Negate most likely. Both of those decks have very little mana requirements, and one goes infinite mana relatively easily.
Company has moved to more 2cmc cards, vizier (also typically they play rallier) and it hits Scooze as well as duskwatch recruiter, devoted druid, selfless spirit, qasali pridemage (usually SB), tidehollow sculler (def comes in against a board wipe deck).
Burn has targets in: helix, skullcrack, Boros charm, eidolon, searing blaze (snapcaster, Colonnade are targetable!!)
I'd also be playing significantly more hate in SB, i.e. 5-6 cards for each MU specifically. Probably 4 leyline of sanctity since it makes both of them resort to a game plan that is much easier to beat,e.g. Put dudes on the board and attack
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I'd play spell snare if I wanted Burn and company to be rollovers. 3 spell snare 2 Negate most likely. Both of those decks have very little mana requirements, and one goes infinite mana relatively easily.
Company has moved to more 2cmc cards, vizier (also typically they play rallier) and it hits Scooze as well as duskwatch recruiter, devoted druid, selfless spirit, qasali pridemage (usually SB), tidehollow sculler (def comes in against a board wipe deck).
Burn has targets in: helix, skullcrack, Boros charm, eidolon, searing blaze (snapcaster, Colonnade are targetable!!)
I'd also be playing significantly more hate in SB, i.e. 5-6 cards for each MU specifically. Probably 4 leyline of sanctity since it makes both of them resort to a game plan that is much easier to beat,e.g. Put dudes on the board and attack
You would play Negate over Knot? Also, what cards would you cut? Verdict is amazing against Company and Zoo-style Burn, but lackluster at best against traditional Burn. Cryptic is mediocre against both/all but it's a huge part of the engine of the deck, allowing us to scale to the lategame. I'm been testing playing only 3 copies and the effect is already very apparent -- especially with relatively dead Snares late game. Similar thing with Think Twice too.
What cards other than Snare would you include? I've been considering playing 2 Alliance, 3 Push, and a pair of Wall of Omens main, but I can't think of very many other cards we even have access to against those decks that aren't just 100% narrow. I've also been looking at Agony Warp as a pseudo-Lightning Helix.
What you are experiencing is being the one to ask questions rather than only answering those questions. Although I love esper draw go I cannot imagine myself not playing something proactive in an eternal format as diverse as modern. My current go to deck is jeskai copycat for that very reason.
Anyway thopter/sword is a bit better now that abrupt decay is non existant in tier 1 and barely even in tier 2 decks ever since twin got banned and we got passed the eldrazi, and aggro combo nonsense. I would suggest you take your deck into a bit of a more proactive approach and abuse your artifacts more. Also to take your discussion to another thread because at that point it is a totally different deck but it is better than jamming thopter sword into esper draw go.
Not sure what you're protesting here, mate? My whole post? Pointing out that its a draw-go thread, not tapout/midrange etc? My claim that the primer is mostly relevant?
I would say that it is: Even though the list has changed a bit, and the meta a lot, the reasoning behind card choices are still "mostly relevant". The core hasnt really changed at all, since I started playing esper draw-go a couple of years ago. We have what, 6 flex slots? Note that I havent said anyone should play stock lists from the primer, just that its a good place to start reading up on our deck. Reading the whole thread would give any newbie a lot of insight into why most of us play really similar lists.
Maybe my original post was unclear: I tried to be welcoming, and at the same time point out that this thread is for a specific type of competetive deck. Its interesting to read other peoples experiments with alternative builds, but thats not really why this thread exists, or why we're here. Also, that we're up for discussing anything, but new people should read up on _why_ we're playing the cards we do. The info is there.
If my post was unclear, or seemed unfriendly, I apologize: english isnt my native language.
(Also, I disagree that STW is better than WSZ, I've run both, switched back to wsz. A lot of us play wsz. Its mostly down to meta and personal preference, though. Please lets not have this debate again. Or actually, if anyone has some brilliant new insight, please bring it on! But lets not rehash the same old points of early pressure vs protection from decking ourself)
Last of all: Have a brilliant day, people! Its summer, enjoy it! Currently 10*C here, so we're rocking shorts and eating icecream while enjoying the sun.
and working out my SB strategy. I think my configuration is as follows:
In -
Unmaking
Purge
Rest In Peace x2
NoSB
Elspeth
Clique x2
Out -
Push x2
Snap x2
Path x4
I originally had the Knots coming out due to the fact that I'm bringing RIP in and expect them to bring in Leyline of the Void, but the more I think about it, the more I want to do everything I can to avoid an early Walker from landing. Any thoughts?
My list, for reference:
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
2 hallowed fountain
2 watery grave
3 island
1 plains
1 swamp
1 ghost quarter
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Glacial Fortress
1 godless shrine
1 Mystic Gate
4 path to exile
2 Fatal Push
4 supreme verdict
Permission:
4 cryptic command
3 logic knot
2 Negate
Card Draw:
4 esper charm
4 think twice
2 sphinx's revelation
2 Snapcaster Mage
Other:
1 White Sun's Zenith
2 Runed Halo
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Dispel
1 Fatal Push
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Anguished Unmaking
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Celestial Purge
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Rest In Peace
2 Stony Silence
I just moved the 2 Runed Halo back to board this week, they weren't as great as I wanted them to be against Tron and Midrange decks, which are slowly taking over my meta (4 abzan, 1 Jund, 2 Rock, 2 fish, 2 ETron 1 GW Tron.... blah)
I figure the MUs it's great against are MUs I should just focus on beating G2/3 anyway (burn, combo, valakut) instead of shaving answers in the MUs im favored
That being said, I think our smallpox MU relies heavily on a late-game token generator because they typically will roll over to 5+ dudes.
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I do not post a lot on MTGSalvation, and whether intended or not when i initially read your post it came across essentially as "if your not on our core and exactly Draw-Go then you should not post here", which is why my post was then immediately removed as it seemed you all have no interest in looking over my list if it did not coincide with your card choices. I also never stated i haven't read the primer, or any of the pages.. I've actually read the primer multiple times including everything that is hidden behind other stuff, I have watched the videos from GreatNate, QTwelve, PimpDonny, Paul Cheon and many others, and searched the thread for thoughts on individual card discussion before i even considered posting my list. I felt my list still held the concept of "Draw-Go" with a few minor changes for my own playstyle and meta, the list has performed Great and i was just looking for other thoughts and opinions. I see other lists posted which are not the exact core of Draw-Go so figured mine would of been OK.. so I was confused. Also, please do not take this reply as a "woe is me" type post or as me trying to complain saying that you were mean to me as that is not it at all. I enjoy the deck and the concept and if my list which is not identical card choices is not welcome, as it is then making everything all "muddled" together that is fine, however when i had said it was not "entirely Draw-Go" i was referring to the fact that based on the primer and other lists I have looked over i had cards that others are not playing Main Board but the design is the same.
UWR Control
BR Hollow One
@rafiqedh: I'm sorry thats how I came across, dude. You'd be amazed how many new players question TT, so I've just started referring people to the primer instead.
We also tend to play more answers while they play more CA on sticks (wall of omens, Resto, 4x snap isn't uncommon)
I've not lost to them, but I also gained most of my competitive MTG experience playing the Caw-Blade mirror for its entirety of existence - sandbagging colonnades early game isn't terrible, timely landdrops aren't as important here because we aren't fighting for mana efficiency as much as we are fighting for card advantage and efficiency - 2/4/1 as much as possible, cryptic is great, expect dispel from SB, surgical/extirpate is a great way to combat counter wars.
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Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
I was not questioning Think Twice, in fact until last night my list was running 4x Think Twice. However I am having some difficulties with the list (loosing all but 1 game last night to an Esper Tokens and a Bant land destruction / aggro list) I have also been told my list would be demolished by our UW control players deck because his has "more threats" even though our lists are almost identical with the exception of him running Seas and me running Charm.
Midrange decks can just land a threat and ride. Aggro can outrace their mirror. Combo can have the nuts.
Control doesn't turn a sharp corner, which means you need a minimum of 4-5 turns planned before you begin the threatening combat sequences. Many control mirrors are lost on the back of becoming the aggressor too early in the game.
As for those series of lost games, those are both tricky MUs for us. Two of the best SB strategies against us are LD and token advantage, so decks focused on that tend to play a rough game.
In the LD game, focus on drawing cards and answering their actual threats (not the LD).
In the token game, you'll pretty much forfeit G1 if you can't get a Colonnade online to start block + removal chains. Once you do that a couple times, they'll try to overcommit to the board - giving you the opportunity to presss a board wipe into their side. Look for Night of Souls Betrayal or Curse of Deaths Hold if this MU is something you expect a lot of.
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I never actually got to see your list, but I'd like to. If you don't feel like it fits the thread, then feel free to PM me. I suspect it isn't too far off tho, if it's playing Think Twice. I can't say I'll have a whole lot of insight to give, however.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I'd toss the Ad Naus for Burn and Company any day.
UWR Control
BR Hollow One
I'm on 4 PtE, 2 push, 4 CC 3 LK 2 Negate 2 BA 3 S verdict 2 SphRev 1 WSZ 3 Snap 4 Charm 4 TT 26 lands
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This, to me, is extremely interesting. I'm curious to see what you come up with!
Company has moved to more 2cmc cards, vizier (also typically they play rallier) and it hits Scooze as well as duskwatch recruiter, devoted druid, selfless spirit, qasali pridemage (usually SB), tidehollow sculler (def comes in against a board wipe deck).
Burn has targets in: helix, skullcrack, Boros charm, eidolon, searing blaze (snapcaster, Colonnade are targetable!!)
I'd also be playing significantly more hate in SB, i.e. 5-6 cards for each MU specifically. Probably 4 leyline of sanctity since it makes both of them resort to a game plan that is much easier to beat,e.g. Put dudes on the board and attack
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Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
You would play Negate over Knot? Also, what cards would you cut? Verdict is amazing against Company and Zoo-style Burn, but lackluster at best against traditional Burn. Cryptic is mediocre against both/all but it's a huge part of the engine of the deck, allowing us to scale to the lategame. I'm been testing playing only 3 copies and the effect is already very apparent -- especially with relatively dead Snares late game. Similar thing with Think Twice too.
What cards other than Snare would you include? I've been considering playing 2 Alliance, 3 Push, and a pair of Wall of Omens main, but I can't think of very many other cards we even have access to against those decks that aren't just 100% narrow. I've also been looking at Agony Warp as a pseudo-Lightning Helix.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.