I started playing magic with a wall deck with chords. I went online and played tron. The guy o'stoned me with 15 potential mana on my side and told me: there is a reason people play lands instead of walls. True story and probably true overall.
Thank god idestructable effects exsist, and that they can't do it untill turn 4+ where you normally beat a G/X tron by then
@Agrossdemise what do you think kiki chords weaknesses are? In my experience our big weakneses are big mana decks (as all midrange decks die to) and certain combo decks as many non-discard midrange decks have problems with. The later is not nesaseraly true with the right silver bullits.
Knowing the ramp potensial of coco walls I asumed you tryed to race their mana production. Wheb you regularly report casting elish norn turn 3 you are in tron land. (While more realistic would be doing it tyrn 4.) Instead you are telling me your construction is good because it can block attakers?
While never an easy winn (with some exceptions) I always feel agro is very beatable with regular chord. About 50/50 before sideboard and very favorable in the post sideboard games.
Having 22 mana in a turn is not impossible in the excample you give, and while chording for e witnes an making a winning combo on that turn is good, it just sounds better to ulamog someone the turn you have 10 mana. With the cast trigger you are favored even if they do have removal.or counters. (Obviusly chord is a more flexible card.)
From what you are describing it sounds like you are having suckess and contributing that suckess to the wrong factors in your deck.
@VidaThor
just test the list and you will see. the way it looks on paper is not how it works exactly. I have tested both the big mana spell and big creature spells and it is just beyond garbage.
im really really really really bad at describing things the way i want sometimes. The deck has Success because it is good and has the answers and speed needed in the meta.
god that all sounded like garbage, my brain is just not working the way i want right now sorry.
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Standard
BUG SuperFriends
Modern RWGKiki's CastleRWG UB Turns UB GRBU HulkBreach GRBU
aggrosdemise I think its great you have had success with your deck. Modern is a format that rewards knowing the deck you play, and I dont think you need the absolute most competitive deck to do well (this is a kiki chord thread for crying out loud).
Jeff Hoogland has described kiki chord as a bad combo deck, a bad midrange-control deck, and a bad aggro deck, but it is very flexible and requires a little line-finding to win. Your list seems far more combo oriented, and while it can have powerful plays like t3 elesh norn, probably has fewer tools to deal with a wide meta.
Patrickgooley don't be like that. We are all here to have a good time playing magic, and share experiences with our deck. You are verging on personal attacks and that is not good.
Also the statement that 'if a deck was good many people would play it'. This is not true. If you need emperic evidence of this then look towards Amulet bloom. The deck had some minor suckess 30 months before it got banned. I had it build 2 years before it got banned, and I just felt like it was OK, often contributing it's victories to luck in an incosistent deck. Only the last 6 months before the ban did I truly know how good the deck was because the public opinion of it changed. Any card that can add 6 mana for 2 mana is better then dark ritual and we all know how good that card is. And through all this time the decklist remained virtualy identical. If you need further proof look at the new death shadow deck. Some would claim it is better then the old death shadow deck. The only difference? The banning of 'probe forcing people to come up with a new build. If you want to split hairs they also printed fatal push but considering many versions do not runn it, it can hardly be contributed to the suckess of the current death shadow list.
If you examine the above evidence we can colcude that publick opinion does not make a deck good. Often they corelate, but not always. This is something explorer style players within game theory knows very well. Although many bad tryed are left upon the altar of exploration before a good deck is discovered. Most people who do not share this opinion of explorers are often achievers or killers who mistake the explorer for a socializer, one who just wants to play with his pet cards. I am here using Richard Bartles taxonomy of players types from 1996, even though more complex taxonomies exist. If you considder most pro teams to be achievers, people who wants to play the 'best deck', then why on earth do most teams include explorers, innovators like Sam Black or Patrick Chapin who come up with really good decks? The truth is that there is lot of unexplored teritory within magic. But I am gonne stop it there, I am imagineing I am rambling on.
Now look at what aggrosdemise is doing in his deck? While clearly unconvetional, he is tapping into some of the wall synergies in modern. While very slim, they have had some suckess. 3 walls in particular breaks fundamental rules of magic: Adding more mana then they should. Wall of Roots can be activated the turn you play it, and once in your oponents turn as well. It is particularly synergetic with Chord of Calling. Overgrown Battlement is very good, adding more then 1 mana at a time. Compare it to Priest of Titania or Elvish Archdruid, these are cards known to be good, and it comes on an 0/4 body that can block. Axebane Guardian is clearly worse. It dies to bolt, cost 1 more mana. But it can help casting difficult manacost. Wall of Blossoms is an old star magic card that is considered very good. Wall of Omens and Carved Caryatid does the same, and they synergise with the mana walls. It is like a combination of elves meets cantrips. And they all work with Chord of Calling or Collected Company. Fast mana is one of the strongest thing in magic, and often what gets banned. You can compare these walls to havving creature versions of the tron lands. Once you assemble them you can tap them for mana.
However, with such an unique effect I find it very hard to assesss them. All I am saying is that I do not find the 'good blocker' aspect of the cards particularly impressive. Depending on the kiki-list agressive decks is often not what we have problems with. Particularly finding good creatures post sideboard often tips the battle in ouer favor. What the wall list do is push the deck in a more ramp direction, and not a 'good stuff' midrange deck like regular kki-chord is. What I do not understand, and find quite fasinating and baffeling is that using the kiki package as the payoff cards is working more for agrossdemise then running chord of chording with Duskwatch recruiter and expensive chord silver bullits like Wurmcoil Engine and Elish Norn.
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I have dyslexia, no I am not going to spell check for you, yes you have to live with the horrors of it.
For the record, I am the one toying with bestiary. Card filtering + card draw is not what I would call durdle, but consistency.
I am totally fine with unconventional lists and I had my biggest tournament win with an unconventional list. The advantage is that the opponent has no clue of what you are doing until it's too late.
I'm a long time Abzan Company player looking to jump aboard the Kiki Chord train since I feel like it's Tron matchup (which is HUGE in my local meta) and Abzan Company matchup (probably tied with Tron for the most people running a deck at my local shop) are better. I've got a WiP list that I'd love some feedback on from people with a little more experience with the deck.
Patrickgooley don't be like that. We are all here to have a good time playing magic, and share experiences with our deck. You are verging on personal attacks and that is not good.
Also the statement that 'if a deck was good many people would play it'. This is not true. If you need emperic evidence of this then look towards Amulet bloom. The deck had some minor suckess 30 months before it got banned. I had it build 2 years before it got banned, and I just felt like it was OK, often contributing it's victories to luck in an incosistent deck. Only the last 6 months before the ban did I truly know how good the deck was because the public opinion of it changed. Any card that can add 6 mana for 2 mana is better then dark ritual and we all know how good that card is. And through all this time the decklist remained virtualy identical. If you need further proof look at the new death shadow deck. Some would claim it is better then the old death shadow deck. The only difference? The banning of 'probe forcing people to come up with a new build. If you want to split hairs they also printed fatal push but considering many versions do not runn it, it can hardly be contributed to the suckess of the current death shadow list.
If you examine the above evidence we can colcude that publick opinion does not make a deck good. Often they corelate, but not always. This is something explorer style players within game theory knows very well. Although many bad tryed are left upon the altar of exploration before a good deck is discovered. Most people who do not share this opinion of explorers are often achievers or killers who mistake the explorer for a socializer, one who just wants to play with his pet cards. I am here using Richard Bartles taxonomy of players types from 1996, even though more complex taxonomies exist. If you considder most pro teams to be achievers, people who wants to play the 'best deck', then why on earth do most teams include explorers, innovators like Sam Black or Patrick Chapin who come up with really good decks? The truth is that there is lot of unexplored teritory within magic. But I am gonne stop it there, I am imagineing I am rambling on.
Now look at what aggrosdemise is doing in his deck? While clearly unconvetional, he is tapping into some of the wall synergies in modern. While very slim, they have had some suckess. 3 walls in particular breaks fundamental rules of magic: Adding more mana then they should. Wall of Roots can be activated the turn you play it, and once in your oponents turn as well. It is particularly synergetic with Chord of Calling. Overgrown Battlement is very good, adding more then 1 mana at a time. Compare it to Priest of Titania or Elvish Archdruid, these are cards known to be good, and it comes on an 0/4 body that can block. Axebane Guardian is clearly worse. It dies to bolt, cost 1 more mana. But it can help casting difficult manacost. Wall of Blossoms is an old star magic card that is considered very good. Wall of Omens and Carved Caryatid does the same, and they synergise with the mana walls. It is like a combination of elves meets cantrips. And they all work with Chord of Calling or Collected Company. Fast mana is one of the strongest thing in magic, and often what gets banned. You can compare these walls to havving creature versions of the tron lands. Once you assemble them you can tap them for mana.
However, with such an unique effect I find it very hard to assesss them. All I am saying is that I do not find the 'good blocker' aspect of the cards particularly impressive. Depending on the kiki-list agressive decks is often not what we have problems with. Particularly finding good creatures post sideboard often tips the battle in ouer favor. What the wall list do is push the deck in a more ramp direction, and not a 'good stuff' midrange deck like regular kki-chord is. What I do not understand, and find quite fasinating and baffeling is that using the kiki package as the payoff cards is working more for agrossdemise then running chord of chording with Duskwatch recruiter and expensive chord silver bullits like Wurmcoil Engine and Elish Norn.
Because at the end of the day, i'm using creatures to ramp not lands. which means there is a lot more possible interaction to mess up the big mana creatures from being cast. i do not plan on tapping walls for 10+ mana on turn 3/4 they are there to tap for 2-3 mana a piece, allowing me to fill the board in response to what they do or to chord/coco/flash at end of their turn to setup a combo kill on mine. The purpose is to Build a fast wall control to say you can't kill me turns 1-3, followed up by now I'm going to win and there is nothing you can do about it turns 4+. Yes sometimes with only 21 lands hands get awkward, or with all the walls you flood out and fail to get a wincon. but that is just math that i'm working on to perfect. the list is at about 95% of perfect, now it's down to the 5 flex spots Main, and 4 in side to figure out the perfect route to go for the Meta, which is constantly evolving. I may have been playing magic since judgement, but this deck requires so much understanding to work that even though the list may be near perfect, i make huge play mistakes that cost me games. The main thing i need to be careful of is lands turn 1-3, then mana management, then chord/coco targets. I have tested this deck on Xmage/Cockatrice vs every meta deck for at least 100+ hours a month easily in the last year, and i still make huge misplays vs certain decks because i don't take a moment to stop and think what am i trying to accomplish this specific game. which is why love chord/pod decks because every decision matters.
The fact i have managed a turn 3 elesh norn in 2/4 weeks, when i was going for a turn 4/5 is 100% pure RNG nothing more. I'm sure there is a math to that probability with shuffling and cuts and foils, but i do not know it. but I'm sure it's a 5% or under. I literally had a disruption and a turn 4-5 elesh possibility in hand and somehow top-decked my way into a turn 3.
My average mana on turn 3 is rather average, my plan is to really have ramp out of control on turn 4+.
I'm a long time Abzan Company player looking to jump aboard the Kiki Chord train since I feel like it's Tron matchup (which is HUGE in my local meta) and Abzan Company matchup (probably tied with Tron for the most people running a deck at my local shop) are better. I've got a WiP list that I'd love some feedback on from people with a little more experience with the deck.
I would drop a pia and kia in a instant, vs decks it's good vs you do not really want two, vs decks it is bad against you do not want to even see one.
with your list township is better.
aggrosdemise I think its great you have had success with your deck. Modern is a format that rewards knowing the deck you play, and I dont think you need the absolute most competitive deck to do well (this is a kiki chord thread for crying out loud).
Jeff Hoogland has described kiki chord as a bad combo deck, a bad midrange-control deck, and a bad aggro deck, but it is very flexible and requires a little line-finding to win. Your list seems far more combo oriented, and while it can have powerful plays like t3 elesh norn, probably has fewer tools to deal with a wide meta.
Jeff hoogland has some real truth to his words, which is why i find a standard list quite clunky and changed my list to be more flexible in a lot more situations. It may seem like it has fewer tools to deal with a wide meta, i have setup my sideboard to fix those weaknesses. I have two match ups i dread Bring to light ramp, and Snap wrath decks which i can beat both but i must not make a single mistake. Everything else i am more than comfortable with in my list. Why bring to light over GR? Control+ramp+bounce effects=a sad day. I can do one or the other, but all three....
I had actually been meaning to post my list with Saheeli+Felidar in it, so thanks for bringing that up again, adri_kalo. There was a link to a list a few pages back that did well in a league with Saheeli/Felidar--no chords, but 4 Oath of Nissa and 4 Eldritch Evolution. I toyed around with the list and was very impressed with Saheeli/Felidar--but less wowed by Oath of Nissa and emphasizing Renegade Rallier shenanigans. While it was fun to blink Oath, or play a second Oath and then Rallier it back--it wasn't really winning games. So I upped my 1cc mana dorks to maximize turn 2 Saheeli and made room for both Chord and Evolution. Here is my current list:
I've been jamming it a ton on xmage with success against a wide field and now that I just finished the deck in paper, I'm excited to play in the large weekly modern tournaments we have out in Boston/Cambridge. Sideboard is a little all over the place and is in constant shuffle. Lots of burn on xmage, so the Leylines are likely due to a warped meta. As for the main, I'm pretty happy with it. Chord decks to me have always felt like I can never fit everything I want into the 60. I'd love to run the 4th Chord, Evo, and Saheeli--but Paths are too necessary to cut and I don't like going below 26ish creatures for a Chord deck.
Saheeli+Felidar offers a powerful angle of attack that offers incredible value and more routes to infinite--Resto+Kiki, Felidar+Kiki, Felidar+Saheeli. Saheeli is a fantastic turn 2 play that offers card selection with scry, value with etb effects, or even mana by copying a mana dork or generating another creature for convoking Chord. Evolution is incredibly powerful and can steal games you thought you had lost. It is very good at turning 2-drops into Felidar or 3-drops into Kiki.
This thread can be difficult to parse at times because there are 3-4 variants being discussed at any given time, but this is the version that has most impressed me thus far. And if the Saheeli+Felidar route needs differentiating or a naming distinction, then "Kitty Chord" is the obvious choice, imo.
Run a max of 3 leylins in SB, it is mathematically the right number. I do not remember the correct reasoning/math past it is the best % wise of getting it in a hand and keeping hand vs getting it in hand and having to mull or over drawing them.
And then in MB
i would do only 2 cubs and run 1 selfless spirit and do a 4 evo/2 chord split.
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Standard
BUG SuperFriends
Modern RWGKiki's CastleRWG UB Turns UB GRBU HulkBreach GRBU
I would drop a pia and kia in a instant, vs decks it's good vs you do not really want two, vs decks it is bad against you do not want to even see one.
with your list township is better.
I've been hesitant to drop the second P&K. A lot of the other strategies locally go wide (like Elves) and it can be extremely useful to have the extra blockers. It does make sense that's an area to focus on to cut to 60 cards, but that will take some experimentation. I know that township is a better card in my deck. What I'm asking though, is if it's even worth running. It is extremely useful in Abzan Company to facilitate the beatdown/midrange plan. But Kiki Chord fills this role by itself fairly naturally, so I'm curious if it's wise to find a spot for it, or just ignore it and move on.
I would drop a pia and kia in a instant, vs decks it's good vs you do not really want two, vs decks it is bad against you do not want to even see one.
with your list township is better.
I've been hesitant to drop the second P&K. A lot of the other strategies locally go wide (like Elves) and it can be extremely useful to have the extra blockers. It does make sense that's an area to focus on to cut to 60 cards, but that will take some experimentation. I know that township is a better card in my deck. What I'm asking though, is if it's even worth running. It is extremely useful in Abzan Company to facilitate the beatdown/midrange plan. But Kiki Chord fills this role by itself fairly naturally, so I'm curious if it's wise to find a spot for it, or just ignore it and move on.
To be honest nothing wrong with going 61 cards, that's what i have been on.
And township, test it out
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I'be been pretty busy recently and haven't gotten to do as much testing as I'd wanted. I highly recommend figuring out how to play Grove of the Burnwillows in whatever you're testing right now if you haven't already.
I'be been pretty busy recently and haven't gotten to do as much testing as I'd wanted. I highly recommend figuring out how to play Grove of the Burnwillows in whatever you're testing right now if you haven't already.
Your list is awesome and is so fun to play, thanks for keeping us updated!
Just a quick question though, cards with flash are insane with Fauna Shaman, have you ever thought of a Spell Queller? And if you have trouble with Tron and GR Titan, why not maindeck Aven mindcensor?
I'be been pretty busy recently and haven't gotten to do as much testing as I'd wanted. I highly recommend figuring out how to play Grove of the Burnwillows in whatever you're testing right now if you haven't already.
Your list is awesome and is so fun to play, thanks for keeping us updated!
Just a quick question though, cards with flash are insane with Fauna Shaman, have you ever thought of a Spell Queller? And if you have trouble with Tron and GR Titan, why not maindeck Aven mindcensor?
Thanks! I've tried both in the past.
Spell Queller is great as a generic temporary answer in specific situations and in the right meta it could be correct as an inclusion.. think Spell based combo/removal light MUs. My issue with the card is it doesn't really fix any problem MUs my list can't toolbox through between the main/side. The card really shines where you're fine with temporary answers... Like Knightfall/Bant Company where you're unable to toolbox as efficiently and having just a generic answer to turn to makes sense. The other challenge that comes with running more than 1-2 copies is the additional strain on the mana base.
Aven Mindcensor is probably in the slot that changes the most in my board. It comes in vs. Tron, Titan/Shift decks, Chord decks, KOTR decks and Death Shadow Jund. It's not particularly good against any of them to be honest and I typically switch back and forth between it and a 2nd Magus if the Moon. Just given the number of MUs it's not particularly great in G1 I'd prefer to keep it in the board. Also, there isn't a 3 drop or 2 drop in the main I'd cut for it currently.
I'be been pretty busy recently and haven't gotten to do as much testing as I'd wanted. I highly recommend figuring out how to play Grove of the Burnwillows in whatever you're testing right now if you haven't already.
Your list is awesome and is so fun to play, thanks for keeping us updated!
Just a quick question though, cards with flash are insane with Fauna Shaman, have you ever thought of a Spell Queller? And if you have trouble with Tron and GR Titan, why not maindeck Aven mindcensor?
Thanks! I've tried both in the past.
Spell Queller is great as a generic temporary answer in specific situations and in the right meta it could be correct as an inclusion.. think Spell based combo/removal light MUs. My issue with the card is it doesn't really fix any problem MUs my list can't toolbox through between the main/side. The card really shines where you're fine with temporary answers... Like Knightfall/Bant Company where you're unable to toolbox as efficiently and having just a generic answer to turn to makes sense. The other challenge that comes with running more than 1-2 copies is the additional strain on the mana base.
Aven Mindcensor is probably in the slot that changes the most in my board. It comes in vs. Tron, Titan/Shift decks, Chord decks, KOTR decks and Death Shadow Jund. It's not particularly good against any of them to be honest and I typically switch back and forth between it and a 2nd Magus if the Moon. Just given the number of MUs it's not particularly great in G1 I'd prefer to keep it in the board. Also, there isn't a 3 drop or 2 drop in the main I'd cut for it currently.
I can totally understand your reasoning.
As for Grove, how is it such a great upgrade to perhaps Karplusan Forest or Copperline gorge? The only advantage I see right now is against Death's shadow, but all the other matchups you just get furthur away from the GW beatdown option.
Why did you get rid of Raging Ravine? It's such a beast to close out grindy games where Gavony Township sometimes can't shine?
Do you post videos of you playing the deck somewhere? I've played a couple months with the list and i've be getting a lot better but I feel like there's lots of room for improvement. And also, I'd be curious to see your sideboard notes!
You want every land in your deck to come into play untapped. Copperline Gorge doesn't do that late game, and the idea is to take less damage and mulligan less, Karplusan Forest requires unnecessary damage and Fire-lit Thicket openers lead to far to many mulligans (Thicket + Gavony, Thicket + Plains, Thicket + Shock/Fetch can't cast Turn 2 Voice). The card also just has the text opponents can't play Death's Shadow stamped on it a lot of the time.
I've never played Raging Ravine in this deck.
I unfortunately don't stream or actually own any cards on MTGO. I can put together a sideboard guide for any MUs you're interested in.
I'be been pretty busy recently and haven't gotten to do as much testing as I'd wanted. I highly recommend figuring out how to play Grove of the Burnwillows in whatever you're testing right now if you haven't already.
Village Bell-Ringer performs better with an abundance of 1-CMC Dorks & Fauna Shaman, there are a number if instances where you pitch to Shaman, get Bell-Ringer, Cast Bell-Ringer, Untap everything and now have Chord for 5 up or the ability to activate Shaman again. Again, keeping cards that require blue as low as possible has always worked out better for me.
To keep it simple, Wall of Roots can't kill your opponent and doesn't produce blue or white. Exalted is important when the highest power creature on your side of the table is 3 and you need to attack through Goyfs/Tasigur/Thought-knot Seers. If I was running a full 4 copies of Chord I'd most likely re-consider some number of Walls.
You want every land in your deck to come into play untapped. Copperline Gorge doesn't do that late game, and the idea is to take less damage and mulligan less, Karplusan Forest requires unnecessary damage and Fire-lit Thicket openers lead to far to many mulligans (Thicket + Gavony, Thicket + Plains, Thicket + Shock/Fetch can't cast Turn 2 Voice). The card also just has the text opponents can't play Death's Shadow stamped on it a lot of the time.
I've never played Raging Ravine in this deck.
I unfortunately don't stream or actually own any cards on MTGO. I can put together a sideboard guide for any MUs you're interested in.
If you can fit grove, the card is busted against death shadow and the life from your opponent is irrelevant when comboing. Furthermore, the types of builds which play grove also play gavony, so the beatdown plan is still very real.
I am on a different list, so my landbase is slightly different. I play both pia and kiran, as well as courser of kruphix, so the firelit thicket is often a godsend when it isn't ruining my opening hand. In a three land opener it is often good, in a two land opener you often have to mulligan it away, especially because your primary two mana spell is voice.
While on the topic of courser, the 9th fetch is very good as it gives us more "scry" effects and makes the splash easier. Furthermore, I play the 23rd land.
Raging ravine is usually the first land to be cut. It slows our early turns and often puts me in an awkward position when I have ravine, an untapped land, bird and 2 drop. If you are greedy and play bird out turn one, if your bird dies you are left without a turn two play if ravine is your only other land. If you play ravine turn one you basically have a six card hand because the bird is likely irrelevant.
However, ravine is in my list currently. The card is a godsend in long matchups, and is particularly good when you know your opponent is holding up counter spells so you just activate and smash.
Last note, village bell ringer is awesome, and when I tested Luda's list it outperformed exarch and pestermite, especially against cryptic decks. It allows for more aggressive attacks and synergizes well with much of the deck. Kiki chord does not have the ability to tempo-out opponents the same way the old twin decks did, so pestermite and crew have lower value in a build like this.
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The close to current list is a few pages back, i will update list once i figure out some things
I love Furystoke Giant so much, but yea.
Thank god idestructable effects exsist, and that they can't do it untill turn 4+ where you normally beat a G/X tron by then
@VidaThor
just test the list and you will see. the way it looks on paper is not how it works exactly. I have tested both the big mana spell and big creature spells and it is just beyond garbage.
im really really really really bad at describing things the way i want sometimes. The deck has Success because it is good and has the answers and speed needed in the meta.
god that all sounded like garbage, my brain is just not working the way i want right now sorry.
Standard
BUG SuperFriends
Modern
RWGKiki's CastleRWG
UB Turns UB
GRBU HulkBreach GRBU
Legacy
GRWBNic-ShiftGRWB
Jeff Hoogland has described kiki chord as a bad combo deck, a bad midrange-control deck, and a bad aggro deck, but it is very flexible and requires a little line-finding to win. Your list seems far more combo oriented, and while it can have powerful plays like t3 elesh norn, probably has fewer tools to deal with a wide meta.
Also the statement that 'if a deck was good many people would play it'. This is not true. If you need emperic evidence of this then look towards Amulet bloom. The deck had some minor suckess 30 months before it got banned. I had it build 2 years before it got banned, and I just felt like it was OK, often contributing it's victories to luck in an incosistent deck. Only the last 6 months before the ban did I truly know how good the deck was because the public opinion of it changed. Any card that can add 6 mana for 2 mana is better then dark ritual and we all know how good that card is. And through all this time the decklist remained virtualy identical. If you need further proof look at the new death shadow deck. Some would claim it is better then the old death shadow deck. The only difference? The banning of 'probe forcing people to come up with a new build. If you want to split hairs they also printed fatal push but considering many versions do not runn it, it can hardly be contributed to the suckess of the current death shadow list.
If you examine the above evidence we can colcude that publick opinion does not make a deck good. Often they corelate, but not always. This is something explorer style players within game theory knows very well. Although many bad tryed are left upon the altar of exploration before a good deck is discovered. Most people who do not share this opinion of explorers are often achievers or killers who mistake the explorer for a socializer, one who just wants to play with his pet cards. I am here using Richard Bartles taxonomy of players types from 1996, even though more complex taxonomies exist. If you considder most pro teams to be achievers, people who wants to play the 'best deck', then why on earth do most teams include explorers, innovators like Sam Black or Patrick Chapin who come up with really good decks? The truth is that there is lot of unexplored teritory within magic. But I am gonne stop it there, I am imagineing I am rambling on.
Now look at what aggrosdemise is doing in his deck? While clearly unconvetional, he is tapping into some of the wall synergies in modern. While very slim, they have had some suckess. 3 walls in particular breaks fundamental rules of magic: Adding more mana then they should. Wall of Roots can be activated the turn you play it, and once in your oponents turn as well. It is particularly synergetic with Chord of Calling. Overgrown Battlement is very good, adding more then 1 mana at a time. Compare it to Priest of Titania or Elvish Archdruid, these are cards known to be good, and it comes on an 0/4 body that can block. Axebane Guardian is clearly worse. It dies to bolt, cost 1 more mana. But it can help casting difficult manacost. Wall of Blossoms is an old star magic card that is considered very good. Wall of Omens and Carved Caryatid does the same, and they synergise with the mana walls. It is like a combination of elves meets cantrips. And they all work with Chord of Calling or Collected Company. Fast mana is one of the strongest thing in magic, and often what gets banned. You can compare these walls to havving creature versions of the tron lands. Once you assemble them you can tap them for mana.
However, with such an unique effect I find it very hard to assesss them. All I am saying is that I do not find the 'good blocker' aspect of the cards particularly impressive. Depending on the kiki-list agressive decks is often not what we have problems with. Particularly finding good creatures post sideboard often tips the battle in ouer favor. What the wall list do is push the deck in a more ramp direction, and not a 'good stuff' midrange deck like regular kki-chord is. What I do not understand, and find quite fasinating and baffeling is that using the kiki package as the payoff cards is working more for agrossdemise then running chord of chording with Duskwatch recruiter and expensive chord silver bullits like Wurmcoil Engine and Elish Norn.
I am totally fine with unconventional lists and I had my biggest tournament win with an unconventional list. The advantage is that the opponent has no clue of what you are doing until it's too late.
1 Spellskite
//Creature (27)
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Restoration Angel
1 Reveillark
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Thragtusk
3 Voice of Resurgence
3 Wall of Omens
2 Wall of Roots
//Enchantment Creature (2)
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
//Instant (7)
4 Chord of Calling
3 Path to Exile
//Sorcery (2)
2 Eldritch Evolution
1 Arid Mesa
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
2 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Crumble to Dust
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Lightning Helix
1 Lone Missionary
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Slaughter Games
2 Stony Silence
1 Raging Ravine
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Renegade Rallier
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Sin Collector
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Celestial Purge
1 Surgical Extraction
Some specific questions I have;
I'm currently running 61 cards; if you were to cut 1 card from the list what would it be?
How does my manabase look? I'm concerned that even with as light of a need for Black Mana as I have, a singleton Overgrown Tomb may not be enough.
Kessig Wolf Run or Gavony Township (my favorite mana-sink) are they worth running in Kiki Chord?
Because at the end of the day, i'm using creatures to ramp not lands. which means there is a lot more possible interaction to mess up the big mana creatures from being cast. i do not plan on tapping walls for 10+ mana on turn 3/4 they are there to tap for 2-3 mana a piece, allowing me to fill the board in response to what they do or to chord/coco/flash at end of their turn to setup a combo kill on mine. The purpose is to Build a fast wall control to say you can't kill me turns 1-3, followed up by now I'm going to win and there is nothing you can do about it turns 4+. Yes sometimes with only 21 lands hands get awkward, or with all the walls you flood out and fail to get a wincon. but that is just math that i'm working on to perfect. the list is at about 95% of perfect, now it's down to the 5 flex spots Main, and 4 in side to figure out the perfect route to go for the Meta, which is constantly evolving. I may have been playing magic since judgement, but this deck requires so much understanding to work that even though the list may be near perfect, i make huge play mistakes that cost me games. The main thing i need to be careful of is lands turn 1-3, then mana management, then chord/coco targets. I have tested this deck on Xmage/Cockatrice vs every meta deck for at least 100+ hours a month easily in the last year, and i still make huge misplays vs certain decks because i don't take a moment to stop and think what am i trying to accomplish this specific game. which is why love chord/pod decks because every decision matters.
The fact i have managed a turn 3 elesh norn in 2/4 weeks, when i was going for a turn 4/5 is 100% pure RNG nothing more. I'm sure there is a math to that probability with shuffling and cuts and foils, but i do not know it. but I'm sure it's a 5% or under. I literally had a disruption and a turn 4-5 elesh possibility in hand and somehow top-decked my way into a turn 3.
My average mana on turn 3 is rather average, my plan is to really have ramp out of control on turn 4+.
I would drop a pia and kia in a instant, vs decks it's good vs you do not really want two, vs decks it is bad against you do not want to even see one.
with your list township is better.
Jeff hoogland has some real truth to his words, which is why i find a standard list quite clunky and changed my list to be more flexible in a lot more situations. It may seem like it has fewer tools to deal with a wide meta, i have setup my sideboard to fix those weaknesses. I have two match ups i dread Bring to light ramp, and Snap wrath decks which i can beat both but i must not make a single mistake. Everything else i am more than comfortable with in my list. Why bring to light over GR? Control+ramp+bounce effects=a sad day. I can do one or the other, but all three....
Standard
BUG SuperFriends
Modern
RWGKiki's CastleRWG
UB Turns UB
GRBU HulkBreach GRBU
Legacy
GRWBNic-ShiftGRWB
2 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Breeding Pool
2 Temple Garden
1 Sacred Garden
1 Steam Vents
2 Stomping Ground
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Spellskite
2 Voice of Resurgence
3 Wall of Omens
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Renegade Rallier
3 Felidar Guardian
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Restoration Angel
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3 Eldtritch Evolution
3 Path to Exile
3 Saheeli Rai
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Izzet Staticater
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Spellskite
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Stony Silence
I've been jamming it a ton on xmage with success against a wide field and now that I just finished the deck in paper, I'm excited to play in the large weekly modern tournaments we have out in Boston/Cambridge. Sideboard is a little all over the place and is in constant shuffle. Lots of burn on xmage, so the Leylines are likely due to a warped meta. As for the main, I'm pretty happy with it. Chord decks to me have always felt like I can never fit everything I want into the 60. I'd love to run the 4th Chord, Evo, and Saheeli--but Paths are too necessary to cut and I don't like going below 26ish creatures for a Chord deck.
Saheeli+Felidar offers a powerful angle of attack that offers incredible value and more routes to infinite--Resto+Kiki, Felidar+Kiki, Felidar+Saheeli. Saheeli is a fantastic turn 2 play that offers card selection with scry, value with etb effects, or even mana by copying a mana dork or generating another creature for convoking Chord. Evolution is incredibly powerful and can steal games you thought you had lost. It is very good at turning 2-drops into Felidar or 3-drops into Kiki.
This thread can be difficult to parse at times because there are 3-4 variants being discussed at any given time, but this is the version that has most impressed me thus far. And if the Saheeli+Felidar route needs differentiating or a naming distinction, then "Kitty Chord" is the obvious choice, imo.
My cube thread!
I like the list,
a few Changes i would make.
Run a max of 3 leylins in SB, it is mathematically the right number. I do not remember the correct reasoning/math past it is the best % wise of getting it in a hand and keeping hand vs getting it in hand and having to mull or over drawing them.
And then in MB
i would do only 2 cubs and run 1 selfless spirit and do a 4 evo/2 chord split.
Standard
BUG SuperFriends
Modern
RWGKiki's CastleRWG
UB Turns UB
GRBU HulkBreach GRBU
Legacy
GRWBNic-ShiftGRWB
I've been hesitant to drop the second P&K. A lot of the other strategies locally go wide (like Elves) and it can be extremely useful to have the extra blockers. It does make sense that's an area to focus on to cut to 60 cards, but that will take some experimentation. I know that township is a better card in my deck. What I'm asking though, is if it's even worth running. It is extremely useful in Abzan Company to facilitate the beatdown/midrange plan. But Kiki Chord fills this role by itself fairly naturally, so I'm curious if it's wise to find a spot for it, or just ignore it and move on.
To be honest nothing wrong with going 61 cards, that's what i have been on.
And township, test it out
Standard
BUG SuperFriends
Modern
RWGKiki's CastleRWG
UB Turns UB
GRBU HulkBreach GRBU
Legacy
GRWBNic-ShiftGRWB
Dies horrible to tron. ^-^
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Eternal Witness
3x Fauna Shaman
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3x Kitchen Finks
1x Magus of the Moon
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Restoration Angel
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Spellskite
1x Village Bell-Ringer
3x Voice of Resurgence
1x Breeding Pool
2x Forest
2x Gavony Township
2x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
Instant (10)
3x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
3x Path to Exile
1x Aven Mindcensor
2x Blood Moon
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Fulminator Mage
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Spellskite
1x Stony Silence
G/x Tron - 7-9 (44%)
GR Titan - 5-10 (33%)
Junk - 10-5 (67%)
Death's Shadow Jund - 12-8 (60%)
Affinity - 9-4 (69%)
Dredge - 9-10 (47%)
Bant Eldrazi - 13-7 (65%)
Burn - 11-8 (58%)
I'be been pretty busy recently and haven't gotten to do as much testing as I'd wanted. I highly recommend figuring out how to play Grove of the Burnwillows in whatever you're testing right now if you haven't already.
Your list is awesome and is so fun to play, thanks for keeping us updated!
Just a quick question though, cards with flash are insane with Fauna Shaman, have you ever thought of a Spell Queller? And if you have trouble with Tron and GR Titan, why not maindeck Aven mindcensor?
BGW - Abzan
Legacy
BG - BG Lands
Thanks! I've tried both in the past.
Spell Queller is great as a generic temporary answer in specific situations and in the right meta it could be correct as an inclusion.. think Spell based combo/removal light MUs. My issue with the card is it doesn't really fix any problem MUs my list can't toolbox through between the main/side. The card really shines where you're fine with temporary answers... Like Knightfall/Bant Company where you're unable to toolbox as efficiently and having just a generic answer to turn to makes sense. The other challenge that comes with running more than 1-2 copies is the additional strain on the mana base.
Aven Mindcensor is probably in the slot that changes the most in my board. It comes in vs. Tron, Titan/Shift decks, Chord decks, KOTR decks and Death Shadow Jund. It's not particularly good against any of them to be honest and I typically switch back and forth between it and a 2nd Magus if the Moon. Just given the number of MUs it's not particularly great in G1 I'd prefer to keep it in the board. Also, there isn't a 3 drop or 2 drop in the main I'd cut for it currently.
Fish: 2-1
G1, kept a bad/slow hand. G2 turn 5 combo. G3: turn 5 elspeth, turn 6 elesh norn.
Jund: 2-0
Turn 6 combo both games.
GB tron: 2-1
G1 I missed I could kill him, he drops ugin.
G2: ewit/Kiki ghost quarter carry
G3: azorious guildmage to strong.
Grix: 0-0 draw
Trying spike feeder/archangel combo.
I have not needed it yet, but i love the angel with permiter captain.
Standard
BUG SuperFriends
Modern
RWGKiki's CastleRWG
UB Turns UB
GRBU HulkBreach GRBU
Legacy
GRWBNic-ShiftGRWB
I can totally understand your reasoning.
As for Grove, how is it such a great upgrade to perhaps Karplusan Forest or Copperline gorge? The only advantage I see right now is against Death's shadow, but all the other matchups you just get furthur away from the GW beatdown option.
Why did you get rid of Raging Ravine? It's such a beast to close out grindy games where Gavony Township sometimes can't shine?
Do you post videos of you playing the deck somewhere? I've played a couple months with the list and i've be getting a lot better but I feel like there's lots of room for improvement. And also, I'd be curious to see your sideboard notes!
BGW - Abzan
Legacy
BG - BG Lands
You want every land in your deck to come into play untapped. Copperline Gorge doesn't do that late game, and the idea is to take less damage and mulligan less, Karplusan Forest requires unnecessary damage and Fire-lit Thicket openers lead to far to many mulligans (Thicket + Gavony, Thicket + Plains, Thicket + Shock/Fetch can't cast Turn 2 Voice). The card also just has the text opponents can't play Death's Shadow stamped on it a lot of the time.
I've never played Raging Ravine in this deck.
I unfortunately don't stream or actually own any cards on MTGO. I can put together a sideboard guide for any MUs you're interested in.
If your only reason to play blue is Izzet Staticaster, why not Deceiver Exarch or Pestermite over Village Bell-Ringer? It has other applications that can be handy, like tapping a Urza's Tower, an opponent's dork, an opponent's red source, tap a Reality Smasher or Death's Shadow tap one of the few basic lands your opponent may have when blood moon'd and a lot of good plays that can be listed. Another question: Why Noble Hierarch over Wall of Roots?
To keep it simple, Wall of Roots can't kill your opponent and doesn't produce blue or white. Exalted is important when the highest power creature on your side of the table is 3 and you need to attack through Goyfs/Tasigur/Thought-knot Seers. If I was running a full 4 copies of Chord I'd most likely re-consider some number of Walls.
If you can fit grove, the card is busted against death shadow and the life from your opponent is irrelevant when comboing. Furthermore, the types of builds which play grove also play gavony, so the beatdown plan is still very real.
I am on a different list, so my landbase is slightly different. I play both pia and kiran, as well as courser of kruphix, so the firelit thicket is often a godsend when it isn't ruining my opening hand. In a three land opener it is often good, in a two land opener you often have to mulligan it away, especially because your primary two mana spell is voice.
While on the topic of courser, the 9th fetch is very good as it gives us more "scry" effects and makes the splash easier. Furthermore, I play the 23rd land.
Raging ravine is usually the first land to be cut. It slows our early turns and often puts me in an awkward position when I have ravine, an untapped land, bird and 2 drop. If you are greedy and play bird out turn one, if your bird dies you are left without a turn two play if ravine is your only other land. If you play ravine turn one you basically have a six card hand because the bird is likely irrelevant.
However, ravine is in my list currently. The card is a godsend in long matchups, and is particularly good when you know your opponent is holding up counter spells so you just activate and smash.
Last note, village bell ringer is awesome, and when I tested Luda's list it outperformed exarch and pestermite, especially against cryptic decks. It allows for more aggressive attacks and synergizes well with much of the deck. Kiki chord does not have the ability to tempo-out opponents the same way the old twin decks did, so pestermite and crew have lower value in a build like this.