You'll generally need 2 mana sources, preferably lands, but if you've got 1 land and a Simian Spirit Guide, and the rest of your hand is perfect, that's keepable. 1 mana source is a no go, unless it's a red land and you've got at least 2 Faithless Looting and things you're willing to discard to ensure you're going to hit your 2nd land between turn 1 and 2 lootings. 1 land and 2 SSG might be keepable, if you have something like Faithless Looting and Tormenting Voice. Most deck variants only have around 20 lands, so your odds of drawing into a land without looting are comparatively low, and your lands are also going to be relatively high priority for pitching to those looting effects to keep combo pieces in hand. Keep that in mind if you're planning on an early Breach or Looting into Vengeance.
If you've got a Goryo's Vengeance, you'll want a pitch effect (Faithless, Voices, Lightning Axe, etc), or to be on the draw with a good reanimation target like Griselbrand and a Goryo's already in hand (so you can draw then discard, then reanimate on turn 3 at latest). If you have Goryo's and a target, but no pitch effect, weigh how many turns it's going to take you to get up to 8 in hand to discard. If it's more than 3 or 4, ship the hand. Goryo's and a looting card is much better to keep, as any target or further lootings all enable your hand.
If you've got a Through the Breach, you'll want at least 1 form of fast mana and possibly a Nourishing Shoal to splice it onto if you're playing the shoal variant. A breach on turn 5 is generally not good enough versus any of the linear aggro decks in the format like Affinity, Infect, or Burn, and probably not good enough versus any combo decks like Twin or Scapeshift. If you're playing a variant with more interaction (such as Durward's RB variant with lots of discard, or a Grixis version with lots of Lightning Axes and Izzet Charms) to clear early drops for time, you can keep a hand that goes a little longer.
Be wary of having too many looting effects. Faithless and Izzet Charm are net card disadvantage when cast from hand and Faithless is only neutral when flashed back. Tormenting Voice is card neutral. Only Night's Whisper in most decks is any sort of card advantage. If you've got a hand that's 3 or 4 land, 2 Faithless, and a Voice, it's really hard to tell what that's going to turn into. It could be perfect, it could be crap.
Also don't forget those discards are not optional. If your hand is 3 good cards and Faithless, when you cast Faithless to draw 2 if they're both good you're going to have to pick 2 of those 5 good cards to discard. Nothing hurts more than having to pitch something like an SSG or Desperate Ritual and then fizzling when you go off because you didn't draw into more.
I tend to err on the side of the mulligan in when I have too many looting cards. Better a strong 5 or 6 than a soft 7 that only might turn into a strong 5 or 6 after you've spent 3 cards and 4 mana on it. Because for me, it inevitably turns into a crappy 5 on turn 3, after spending all my good early dig cards.
Beyond that, like any regular combo deck that relies on the 4+4/4+4 type formula, you want as many combo pieces as you can get, or draw/discard effects like Faithless/Voice/Izzet Charm to get to them as you can. If you're on the shoal version, remember that Shoals are basically dead in hand unless you've also got a Wurm or at least a Manamorphose or spare Borborygmos to pitch to it. If you're on Fury of the Horde, that's also dead in hand unless you've also got the full combo. Soul Spikes are a little more flexible. Manamorphose, redundant copies of Breach or Vengeance, Desperate Ritual, any lands beyond 3 or 4, those are all effectively dead cards unless your hand can already go off. Worldspine Wurms are mostly dead unless you've got a Shoal or Breach (though they can serve as discard fodder for Looting/Voice as they'll at least shuffle back in). If you've got more than 2 dead cards, strongly consider mulliganing, especially if you don't have a looting effect.
This is ultimately a fast combo deck. If your hand of 6 or 7 doesn't actively do anything by turn 4, you probably should mulligan. Once you hit 5 you have to start putting up with sloppier hands. In those cases looting effects are better than dead cards, with a slight priority on Faithless, just because you get to draw before choosing what to discard.
He means, that you either need one of 4 Through the Breaches and a Creature, or one of 4 Goryo's + 1 Legendary Creature in your Graveyard. You have basically 2 Combo cards (A and B (Goryo's and TTB)) where you play the playset and your creatures (C and D (Griselbrand and Wordlspine Wurm in the Shoal version)). You want now a combination from A/B + C or B + D. Those are your combo pieces and you want to play as many of those as possible, hence, the 4+4/4+4 formula (playset of all playable combo cards).
@Topic, atm I working on a detailed guide on how to play the Shoal version. It will take a little bit of time, since it is quite deep (mulligan decisions, how to approach the game, how to combo, ...). I want, that in the end you should be able to play the Shoal version on a decent level (so, that you don't lose everygame cause you make punts).
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: If I can go to GP Copenhagen I will play this deck, not sure witch version, but most likely is the Shoal version (as so many advantages over the classic take).
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
The 4+4/4+4 formula is something I originally encountered as a term in Legacy, mostly in reference to the Sneak'n'Show archetype.
Kathal has the right of the concept. Basically, if your 2 card combo only works with 1 particular card, plus 1 particular card, then if you've got nothing to tutor those up, the combo is too inconsistent to work reliably. You just won't draw both halves of the combo often enough to be able to win games. With only 4 copies of a card, your chance of seeing it in your opening 7 are around 40%. If you have two independent cards you need, that means you'll have both in your opening hand only around 15% of the time, which is not very good odds.
However, if you have 2 cards which can function as half the combo, you now have 8 total cards that work that way, and chances are now high enough that the deck could be considered potentially reliable enough to win games. For Sneak'n'Show, you've got both Show and Tell and Sneak Attack as your way to cheat large creatures into play, and on the other side, you've got both Griselbrand and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. So if there's a second card that works "well enough" for one half, that's 8 effective copies of a card, and you have about a 65% chance of seeing 1 or more of those cards. And for a 2 card combo, a combined chance of seeing both halves of the combo of around 40%. Those odds start to be good enough to play as a serious deck.
In this deck, depending on the version the creature package is usually similar to Sneak and Show, (or, in the Shoal version, we're on Worldspine Wurm and Borborygmos Enraged as the "+4" for either Breach or Shoal), and Goryo's Vengeance + Through the Breach as our cheat cards. We're a bit less consistent, because Vengeance and Breach don't work exactly alike (Goryo's works from the graveyard, Breach, from the hand), but for Modern it's generally "good enough".
This is the same reason Modern Twin decks usually run 4 Deceiver Exarch, plus some number of Pestermite, and 4 Splinter Twin, plus some number of Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. If the Twin deck is all in on the combo, they may run 3 or even 4 of the second card, while the versions that are more control oriented may only run 1 or 2 extras. The control versions often run other threats like Vendillion Clique and Snapcaster Mage plus counters and answers to slow the game down, while the combo versions will usually run more spells to dig through their library, in order to increase the chance of drawing into the combo. For this deck, our looting spells are also generally our dig spells.
Can anyone post a "stock" non-Shoal list? I'm looking to build it once MM2 drops prices. Thanks in advance.
Kathal's primer in the first post of the thread has solid stock versions of all the major variants, including the classic Kahleya version, which is probably the most streamlined non-Shoal version though it's also probably weakest to hate. Caleb Durward's been playing with variations that have heavier hand disruption to avoid hate. The first post also has links to his article.
The stock lists are in the primer, but some of them are a little bit out of date (pre KTK), so they don't have the correct manabase. Furthermore, in the BR version people started to run 4 Temples as additional "1 drop" (scrying 1 is pretty nice) and in the Grixis version I saw some lists run Halimar Depths (which is btw just awesome).
Hey all! Another week, another one of these tournament reports (if you guys want me to stop, I can. Now I can start to offer some legitimate gameplay tips, tactics and thoughts for individual matchups)
After 4 consecutive tournaments going 3-1, I finally swept the field. That puts my record at 16-4 on this deck. Very very powerful are my same thoughts.
My list for reference:
Round 1: Elfball/Mono-Green Devotion (Garruk Wildspeaker/Nykthos/Genesis Wave etc.)
This is one of those matchups that seem unlosable. They play a (mostly) fair game, with some possible explosive starts (needing Burning-Tree Emissary and Nykthos). With no real interaction G1, it was an easy combo finish. Second game was less clean. They got in a lot of early damage, and a Beast Within on Griselbrand forced only a small set of draws. Luckily, (and you should note this) if you are playing around Path to Exile/Removal, always attack first before drawing cards. Since we do not require the combat step to win, they will almost always use their removal spell then, allowing you to draw cards in response. I set up a TTB on the Wurm for the final points of damage.
1-0
SB:
-1 Time of Need, -1 Manamorphose, +2 Abrupt Decay
Round 2: Time Warp (Oddly enough, the list I had played and streamed for nearly a year)
The best way to think of these rougish matchups is that they are a random control deck. Game one, they tapped out on one turn, and promptly lost. The second game is more typical of these blue matchups post-board. I played draw-go until I could force a Nourishing Shoal at the end of their turn (splicing Goryo's/TTB on it). They had to use most of their countermagic then, and a Duress cleared the way for the original spell to resolve.
SB:
-1 Time of Need, -1 Desperate Ravings -3 Manamorphose, -1 Stomping Ground
+1 Boseiju, +3 Duress, +2 Abrupt Decay (Since I know they rely on Howling Mine effects, this was a critical board in. Not something you normally do against the blue decks)
2-0
Round 3: GR Tron
Ah, the best matchup. By far. I honestly think we are 70-30 or better against them. Game 1 was a super slow hand, but even a T5 combo is good enough. The second game was worse, with him mulliganing to 5 and myself to 4. A turn 1 Duress from my end stripped his only relevant card, but he proceeded to have the god-draw of tron+Karn over 3 turns. Not much else to say. The final game he slammed Leyline of Sanctity on Turn 1. I combo on turn two, draw a bunch of cards, and leave myself with a Through the Breach with Worldspine Wurm to finish him off the following turn. (Well before any chance of Ugin as well)
3-0
SB: Game 2: -1 Time of Need, -1 Deperate Ravings, +2 Duress, Game 3: Back to main 60
Round 4: Bogles
Another easy matchup if they do not provide early pressure. T2 and T3 combo kills in the two games. Only catch was to play around the Path to Exile he left up.
4-0
SB: Nothing Maybe it is correct to play Decays, but the list just seemed super smooth.
Again, seriously debating making the trip for the Modern GP. I think this is the list with only SB changes to make. I think there needs to be some number of Blood Moons/Chalice of the Voids/Better Artifact hate. That's what I am fiddling with now.
U no say you made a deck tech . At least I stumbled over it . If you don't mind I will add this video to the Primer.
Nice job at the FMN (and pls don't stop with this, when I get to play more magic again I will also start to post again results, since it helps to identify the match-ups %). But yeah, the deck is just great. In my opinion there are 6 fix slots in the SB (3 Discard spells and 3 Leylines), but often you want to play the playset from those. That leaves you with 7-9 slots, 1 Boseiju is always great, 2-3 Decays too, the rest are personal preferences (I have 2 Needles atm in the SB, since they are great against Tron, Infect and other decks (although you don't want it against Infect)). I never tested Rending Volley, since I already like the Twin match-up, but you are probably right to play a few of those.
For artifact hate, there are a bunch of cards, which you can play. For single target there is Rakods Charm, Decay, Destructive Revelry (also awesome against Enchantments, but is probably to narrow), Vandalblast (has some value, when you can overload it). For multiple things there is Shattering Spree (is between single and everything, but also requires a red heavy manabase (which shouldn't be a problem for us), Creeping Corrosion/Shatterstorm (Shatterstorm is clearly better) and Hurkyl's Recall (if you play 1 U dual land). I think, that those are the only "playable" ones.
If you can afford the time and money go there and swing with some Griselbrands, I'm sure it will be a blast for you
@Topic, I have some problems with the name of the deck (or with this Archetype in general). Griselbrand Reanimator is so meh, we should rename the deck (and I know, some mods won't be happy about this ), but I don't know how. I really like Tin Fins (the legacy version of this deck), since it also so close to the Shoal version (how it plays and kills the opponent). Any suggestions?
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
That deck tech was well before I started playing. I'm thiiiiis close to actually building it online and just having a full primer ready. I feel very comfortable with the deck, and honestly can take a tournament, especially with the current metagame.
Rending Volley is beautiful in the matchup. Seriously, having access to Simian Spirit Guide and Rending Volley is quite nice.
That is the list of cards I was looking at for Artifact hate, but I keep finding myself wanting too much. (CMC <4, Instant, Multiple Targets)
I keep finding that I like Abrupt Decay more and more, and Rakdos Charm less and less.
These are names that I've thought of (and were mentioned in the comments) for the Shoal version
Grishoalbrand Vengeance
Wurm Brand Oryo's/Name Brand Oryo's
Tungsten Fins
Yeah, I know the problem with artifact hate. The two best cards for this deck are Abrupt Decay (since it is a catch-all spell) and Shattering Spree. Everything was meh (I'm at a point, where I don't even run Rakdos Charm anymore, since I don't need it and the other options are better).
Gonna test Rending Volley at the next tournament (Sunday), lets see how good it is (on paper it looks great).
I don't like those names, they are either to complex or doesn't represent all different builds (ofc, the Shoal build is probably the best build, but still, many people are playing the BR/Grixis or the Ooze version). That's why I like Tin Fins as a name, cause it is a deckname which fits every build. But this is just my opinion.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: I also want to build this deck on MTGO, but the costs . Maybe later this year, but for now probably not.
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
This list looks great! I like the Lighthouse in the landslot (played it too, was awesome when the games dragged on). The only thing which irritates me are the Buddylands (never tried them, I played more Scar lands in those slots), but I think they are no problem. The only thing I'm suggesting you is, to try Halimar Depths (as a 1 or 2 off). It gives you another turn 1 play and overall they are pretty great. The only problem I see is that you have already 12 turn 1 plays, so you probably don't need them (I played only 2 Discard spells main and 4 Bolts, cause DRS was legal back in the days, but you are playing them in the SB). Did you ever consider a G splash for decay (I know, that it stretches the manabase and it can lead to awkward situations, but they are just so great. Maybe they aren't needed atm, since I didn't play this version since last year August).
Do you mind if I use your list as stock list for the Grixis version?
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll definitely test the Halimar Depths...although I worry about them entering the battlefield tapped, and also tapping only for blue. With the 12 1-drops, might not need them (as you mentioned), but def worth testing.
I did think about splashing green for decay, or white for lifegain, but not convinced it's worth the strain on the manabase. Echoing Truths has been great answering disruption (EOT bounce whatever, then do my thing).
Absolutely, you can use this as the stock Grixis version.
I'll be sure to post future results, or deck changes.
Hi I've been playing the shoal version for quite a while now, can anybody help me out with strategies against a bloom titan deck? By the way, New to the forum here thanks in advance
You should be a turn faster than Bloom Titan G1.
I'd think of it in the same way as Affinity/Infect. They have their gameplan and we have ours. G1 we have little interaction. Postboard, definitely think about bringing in Abrupt Decays as it is the best card in the matchup.
What specific issue do you have? The pacts? How to play? Helps to know what you need help with
This is actually the first time I've played against it, game one he managed to pull of a turn two win via summoners pact through hive mind, game 2 i boarded in blood moons but wasn't able to draw it despite the aggresive mulls but I managed to combo off while he was trying to resolve a titan turn 3, game 3 was turn too slow he managed to win by pact of negation on my blood moon i needed another land drop for a shoaled breach on turn 4. I guess I'll grab me a couple of abrupt decays then, how many should i board in? Should I board it in with blood moon?
I think the pull from eternity is inspired. Lets you reload after a bust. I've been missing with Eerie Procession myself, so I am stoked. I like this list, but it does see a little too all-in. Serum powders and Gemstone Caverns?!? I got goose bumps, felt like I was looking at flash-hulk.
Built the deck last night (shoal version) and hated the manamorphose...what do you guys think about replacing them with 4 Decay? Shores up the infect and twin matchups and gives you a little bit of interaction. Plus you can still pitch to shoal.
Also, thoughts about Murderous Cut and or sickening shoal main or sideboarded?
If you've got a Goryo's Vengeance, you'll want a pitch effect (Faithless, Voices, Lightning Axe, etc), or to be on the draw with a good reanimation target like Griselbrand and a Goryo's already in hand (so you can draw then discard, then reanimate on turn 3 at latest). If you have Goryo's and a target, but no pitch effect, weigh how many turns it's going to take you to get up to 8 in hand to discard. If it's more than 3 or 4, ship the hand. Goryo's and a looting card is much better to keep, as any target or further lootings all enable your hand.
If you've got a Through the Breach, you'll want at least 1 form of fast mana and possibly a Nourishing Shoal to splice it onto if you're playing the shoal variant. A breach on turn 5 is generally not good enough versus any of the linear aggro decks in the format like Affinity, Infect, or Burn, and probably not good enough versus any combo decks like Twin or Scapeshift. If you're playing a variant with more interaction (such as Durward's RB variant with lots of discard, or a Grixis version with lots of Lightning Axes and Izzet Charms) to clear early drops for time, you can keep a hand that goes a little longer.
Be wary of having too many looting effects. Faithless and Izzet Charm are net card disadvantage when cast from hand and Faithless is only neutral when flashed back. Tormenting Voice is card neutral. Only Night's Whisper in most decks is any sort of card advantage. If you've got a hand that's 3 or 4 land, 2 Faithless, and a Voice, it's really hard to tell what that's going to turn into. It could be perfect, it could be crap.
Also don't forget those discards are not optional. If your hand is 3 good cards and Faithless, when you cast Faithless to draw 2 if they're both good you're going to have to pick 2 of those 5 good cards to discard. Nothing hurts more than having to pitch something like an SSG or Desperate Ritual and then fizzling when you go off because you didn't draw into more.
I tend to err on the side of the mulligan in when I have too many looting cards. Better a strong 5 or 6 than a soft 7 that only might turn into a strong 5 or 6 after you've spent 3 cards and 4 mana on it. Because for me, it inevitably turns into a crappy 5 on turn 3, after spending all my good early dig cards.
Beyond that, like any regular combo deck that relies on the 4+4/4+4 type formula, you want as many combo pieces as you can get, or draw/discard effects like Faithless/Voice/Izzet Charm to get to them as you can. If you're on the shoal version, remember that Shoals are basically dead in hand unless you've also got a Wurm or at least a Manamorphose or spare Borborygmos to pitch to it. If you're on Fury of the Horde, that's also dead in hand unless you've also got the full combo. Soul Spikes are a little more flexible. Manamorphose, redundant copies of Breach or Vengeance, Desperate Ritual, any lands beyond 3 or 4, those are all effectively dead cards unless your hand can already go off. Worldspine Wurms are mostly dead unless you've got a Shoal or Breach (though they can serve as discard fodder for Looting/Voice as they'll at least shuffle back in). If you've got more than 2 dead cards, strongly consider mulliganing, especially if you don't have a looting effect.
This is ultimately a fast combo deck. If your hand of 6 or 7 doesn't actively do anything by turn 4, you probably should mulligan. Once you hit 5 you have to start putting up with sloppier hands. In those cases looting effects are better than dead cards, with a slight priority on Faithless, just because you get to draw before choosing what to discard.
Some of my decks:
Oath Walker Devo - Modern
Stompy - Modern
Battle of Wits - Modern
Teysa's Sac Circus - EDH
Rob's 450 Unpowered - Cube
@Topic, atm I working on a detailed guide on how to play the Shoal version. It will take a little bit of time, since it is quite deep (mulligan decisions, how to approach the game, how to combo, ...). I want, that in the end you should be able to play the Shoal version on a decent level (so, that you don't lose everygame cause you make punts).
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: If I can go to GP Copenhagen I will play this deck, not sure witch version, but most likely is the Shoal version (as so many advantages over the classic take).
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Kathal has the right of the concept. Basically, if your 2 card combo only works with 1 particular card, plus 1 particular card, then if you've got nothing to tutor those up, the combo is too inconsistent to work reliably. You just won't draw both halves of the combo often enough to be able to win games. With only 4 copies of a card, your chance of seeing it in your opening 7 are around 40%. If you have two independent cards you need, that means you'll have both in your opening hand only around 15% of the time, which is not very good odds.
However, if you have 2 cards which can function as half the combo, you now have 8 total cards that work that way, and chances are now high enough that the deck could be considered potentially reliable enough to win games. For Sneak'n'Show, you've got both Show and Tell and Sneak Attack as your way to cheat large creatures into play, and on the other side, you've got both Griselbrand and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. So if there's a second card that works "well enough" for one half, that's 8 effective copies of a card, and you have about a 65% chance of seeing 1 or more of those cards. And for a 2 card combo, a combined chance of seeing both halves of the combo of around 40%. Those odds start to be good enough to play as a serious deck.
In this deck, depending on the version the creature package is usually similar to Sneak and Show, (or, in the Shoal version, we're on Worldspine Wurm and Borborygmos Enraged as the "+4" for either Breach or Shoal), and Goryo's Vengeance + Through the Breach as our cheat cards. We're a bit less consistent, because Vengeance and Breach don't work exactly alike (Goryo's works from the graveyard, Breach, from the hand), but for Modern it's generally "good enough".
This is the same reason Modern Twin decks usually run 4 Deceiver Exarch, plus some number of Pestermite, and 4 Splinter Twin, plus some number of Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. If the Twin deck is all in on the combo, they may run 3 or even 4 of the second card, while the versions that are more control oriented may only run 1 or 2 extras. The control versions often run other threats like Vendillion Clique and Snapcaster Mage plus counters and answers to slow the game down, while the combo versions will usually run more spells to dig through their library, in order to increase the chance of drawing into the combo. For this deck, our looting spells are also generally our dig spells.
Kathal's primer in the first post of the thread has solid stock versions of all the major variants, including the classic Kahleya version, which is probably the most streamlined non-Shoal version though it's also probably weakest to hate. Caleb Durward's been playing with variations that have heavier hand disruption to avoid hate. The first post also has links to his article.
Otherwise, you can find lists here: http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=312&f=MO&meta=44.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: The discard heavy BR lists are the most common non Shoal list atm, since it has a much better match-up against Twin.
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
After 4 consecutive tournaments going 3-1, I finally swept the field. That puts my record at 16-4 on this deck. Very very powerful are my same thoughts.
My list for reference:
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Stomping Ground
1 Verdant Catacomb
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Stomping Ground
2 Blood Crypt
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Griselbrand
2 Borborygmos Enraged
4 Worldspine Wurm
4 Faithless Looting
2 Desperate Ritual
4 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Time of Need
3 Night's Whisper
1 Tormenting Voice
4 Nourishing Shoal
4 Manamorphose
4 Through the Breach
3 Duress
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Rakdos Charm
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Rending Volley
Round 1: Elfball/Mono-Green Devotion (Garruk Wildspeaker/Nykthos/Genesis Wave etc.)
This is one of those matchups that seem unlosable. They play a (mostly) fair game, with some possible explosive starts (needing Burning-Tree Emissary and Nykthos). With no real interaction G1, it was an easy combo finish. Second game was less clean. They got in a lot of early damage, and a Beast Within on Griselbrand forced only a small set of draws. Luckily, (and you should note this) if you are playing around Path to Exile/Removal, always attack first before drawing cards. Since we do not require the combat step to win, they will almost always use their removal spell then, allowing you to draw cards in response. I set up a TTB on the Wurm for the final points of damage.
1-0
SB:
-1 Time of Need, -1 Manamorphose, +2 Abrupt Decay
Round 2: Time Warp (Oddly enough, the list I had played and streamed for nearly a year)
The best way to think of these rougish matchups is that they are a random control deck. Game one, they tapped out on one turn, and promptly lost. The second game is more typical of these blue matchups post-board. I played draw-go until I could force a Nourishing Shoal at the end of their turn (splicing Goryo's/TTB on it). They had to use most of their countermagic then, and a Duress cleared the way for the original spell to resolve.
SB:
-1 Time of Need, -1 Desperate Ravings -3 Manamorphose, -1 Stomping Ground
+1 Boseiju, +3 Duress, +2 Abrupt Decay (Since I know they rely on Howling Mine effects, this was a critical board in. Not something you normally do against the blue decks)
2-0
Round 3: GR Tron
Ah, the best matchup. By far. I honestly think we are 70-30 or better against them. Game 1 was a super slow hand, but even a T5 combo is good enough. The second game was worse, with him mulliganing to 5 and myself to 4. A turn 1 Duress from my end stripped his only relevant card, but he proceeded to have the god-draw of tron+Karn over 3 turns. Not much else to say. The final game he slammed Leyline of Sanctity on Turn 1. I combo on turn two, draw a bunch of cards, and leave myself with a Through the Breach with Worldspine Wurm to finish him off the following turn. (Well before any chance of Ugin as well)
3-0
SB: Game 2: -1 Time of Need, -1 Deperate Ravings, +2 Duress, Game 3: Back to main 60
Round 4: Bogles
Another easy matchup if they do not provide early pressure. T2 and T3 combo kills in the two games. Only catch was to play around the Path to Exile he left up.
4-0
SB: Nothing Maybe it is correct to play Decays, but the list just seemed super smooth.
Again, seriously debating making the trip for the Modern GP. I think this is the list with only SB changes to make. I think there needs to be some number of Blood Moons/Chalice of the Voids/Better Artifact hate. That's what I am fiddling with now.
Link to cubetutor:
http://cubetutor.com/cubeblog/10113
Nice job at the FMN (and pls don't stop with this, when I get to play more magic again I will also start to post again results, since it helps to identify the match-ups %). But yeah, the deck is just great. In my opinion there are 6 fix slots in the SB (3 Discard spells and 3 Leylines), but often you want to play the playset from those. That leaves you with 7-9 slots, 1 Boseiju is always great, 2-3 Decays too, the rest are personal preferences (I have 2 Needles atm in the SB, since they are great against Tron, Infect and other decks (although you don't want it against Infect)). I never tested Rending Volley, since I already like the Twin match-up, but you are probably right to play a few of those.
For artifact hate, there are a bunch of cards, which you can play. For single target there is Rakods Charm, Decay, Destructive Revelry (also awesome against Enchantments, but is probably to narrow), Vandalblast (has some value, when you can overload it). For multiple things there is Shattering Spree (is between single and everything, but also requires a red heavy manabase (which shouldn't be a problem for us), Creeping Corrosion/Shatterstorm (Shatterstorm is clearly better) and Hurkyl's Recall (if you play 1 U dual land). I think, that those are the only "playable" ones.
If you can afford the time and money go there and swing with some Griselbrands, I'm sure it will be a blast for you
@Topic, I have some problems with the name of the deck (or with this Archetype in general). Griselbrand Reanimator is so meh, we should rename the deck (and I know, some mods won't be happy about this ), but I don't know how. I really like Tin Fins (the legacy version of this deck), since it also so close to the Shoal version (how it plays and kills the opponent). Any suggestions?
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Rending Volley is beautiful in the matchup. Seriously, having access to Simian Spirit Guide and Rending Volley is quite nice.
That is the list of cards I was looking at for Artifact hate, but I keep finding myself wanting too much. (CMC <4, Instant, Multiple Targets)
I keep finding that I like Abrupt Decay more and more, and Rakdos Charm less and less.
These are names that I've thought of (and were mentioned in the comments) for the Shoal version
Grishoalbrand Vengeance
Wurm Brand Oryo's/Name Brand Oryo's
Tungsten Fins
Link to cubetutor:
http://cubetutor.com/cubeblog/10113
Gonna test Rending Volley at the next tournament (Sunday), lets see how good it is (on paper it looks great).
I don't like those names, they are either to complex or doesn't represent all different builds (ofc, the Shoal build is probably the best build, but still, many people are playing the BR/Grixis or the Ooze version). That's why I like Tin Fins as a name, cause it is a deckname which fits every build. But this is just my opinion.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: I also want to build this deck on MTGO, but the costs . Maybe later this year, but for now probably not.
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I placed 3rd at Starcity States in Richmond Ky, and 1st at FNM. Those are my only results so far.
I encourage the Grisel lovers to try this list, as it's been extremely consistent for me.
4 emrakul
4 simian spirit guide
4 goryo's vengance
4 through the breach
4 faithless looting
4 serum visions
4 izzet charm
4 thoughtseize
4 fury of the horde
4 bloodstained mire
4 polluted delta
2 watery grave
2 blood crypt
1 steam vents
1 darkslick shores
1 blackcleave cliffs
1 dragonskull summit
1 swamp
1 mountain
1 island
1 desolate lighthouse
4 lightning bolt
4 dragon's claw
1 boseiju, who shelter's all
2 echoing truths
3 inquisition of kozelik
1 liliana of the veil
If anyone wants, I'll be glad to discuss sideboard strategies or maindeck card choices.
Do you mind if I use your list as stock list for the Grixis version?
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll definitely test the Halimar Depths...although I worry about them entering the battlefield tapped, and also tapping only for blue. With the 12 1-drops, might not need them (as you mentioned), but def worth testing.
I did think about splashing green for decay, or white for lifegain, but not convinced it's worth the strain on the manabase. Echoing Truths has been great answering disruption (EOT bounce whatever, then do my thing).
Absolutely, you can use this as the stock Grixis version.
I'll be sure to post future results, or deck changes.
I'd think of it in the same way as Affinity/Infect. They have their gameplan and we have ours. G1 we have little interaction. Postboard, definitely think about bringing in Abrupt Decays as it is the best card in the matchup.
What specific issue do you have? The pacts? How to play? Helps to know what you need help with
Link to cubetutor:
http://cubetutor.com/cubeblog/10113
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/goryos_vengeance_with_joe_loss.html
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
Spells:
3 Pentad Prism
3 Serum Powder
2 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Izzet Charm
2 Pull from Eternity
4 Through the Breach
1 Eerie Procession
4 Faithless Looting
4 Fury of the Horde
1 Swamp
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
3 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Caverns
3 Torpor Orb
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Back to Nature
4 Silence
1 Pyroclasm
3 Thoughtseize
1 Gemstone Mine
He's 3-1 right now, so it's hard to know how good this really is.
EDH: ZurUBW, Leroy Jenkins (Norin the Wary)R, Nicol BolasRBU, Arcum DagssonU, Sharuum, the HegemonUBW, Captain SisayGW, Hazezon TamarGWR
Also, thoughts about Murderous Cut and or sickening shoal main or sideboarded?