I'm more and more unhappy with eternal witness. I find it way too slow in most matches. I think about rallier but as usual I'm facing unability to trigger revolt too many times. Currently I'm still testing rallier, coupled with voice of resurgence, and another version where it is coupled with wall of omens. Am I the only one having an issue with 4 witnesses in the deck?
By playing things like Voice maindeck you are diluting your combo plan game 1. There are decks that don't even care about you playing a Voice so you have to ask yourself if it is better than only going for the combo which every deck cares about? 4 Witness is the place you want to be as seen by the majority placing lists over the history of the deck. They act as either grindy cards when we need it or extra combo pieces when we need it.
There are a lot of ideas that are so bad as to not be worth testing. The arbor elf angle is one of them. It has no place in a deck with collected company.
Yet somehow we return to Simian Spirit Guide from time to time for similar reasons; does it all go back to Collected Company itself?
I suppose it doesn't matter though. I'm not here to prove you wrong; I'm here to share my experiences with this community and learn how to be a better player and deckbuilder. And since I am not receiving any constructive argument against my position, I'll simply refrain from detracting from any constructive conversation.
I explained it in my reply to your original post. There are far too many downsides of playing Elf+Sprawl compared to just playing traditional manadorks. Plan B of Gavony Township becomes worse, Company hits become worse, you lose out on chumpblockers, you are open to Ghost Quarter on more than just Township and the biggest of all is that you need both cards to really make it work otherwise you should just be playing a normal dork. Too many inconsistencies with the deck would be created by playing those cards.
The same things go for people playing SSG. It does make a turn of the deck faster yes, but it also dilutes the deck at every other point of the game which overall makes it worse.
Hmm I can understand the Ghost Quarter argument, as well as the Company part to some extent (I still hate accelerating past 4-6 mana).
I guess I was just thinking of a more consistent turn 3 kill speed against Tron and the faster archetypes. I did not consider what the metagame would actually look like.
So has the overall feeling on path to exile remained the same? Sideboard only?
I'm still running 2 main and a third in the board and I really like having that additional 1-mana interaction for when I need it most. Plus it improves the currency of eternal witness by being able to (albeit slowly) machine gun an opposing boardstate away or even ramp off your own creatures.
I'm running 29 creatures (6 mana dorks, I haven't shaved any of those, it's "flex slots" only, none of the important stuff has been diluted) Essentially it's there instead of some unspecified 30th and 31st creatures in the main. Hasn't been a problem so far, and I've noticed a marked improvement by maybe 10% or so in my eldrazi/shadow matchups.
That was my overall reason for including the card in the main. The opportunity cost is low (amounts to a slightly increased probability of whiffing on a coco) but the payoff can be huge. If you draw a witness (or coco into one) that single path you've drawn can remove up to three creatures in a typical game. Witness is a force multiplier and path is the useful tool.
Now what's interesting about path's inclusion is that it doesn't "slow the deck down" per se, but it does (at a low rate) change the composition of your opening hands a bit. That said, for 2 spells out of 60 it brings a lot of insurance to your game 1 where you may rely on removing a difficult creature or disrupt an opposing combo, or even just bolster your beatdown plan if the combo doesn't quite assemble.
I finally been able to join my LGS for modern tournaments. I had this deck for a year now but haven't played it competitively til recently. I have been having success with my list with a record of 7-1 on matches for the past 2 weeks. My meta consists of Naya Zoo, 8-rack, GB tron, Eldrazi tron, Jeskai control, Mardu burn, Naya burn, Grixis Death Shadow, Grixis delver, Bogles, Storm and Krark Clan Ironworks Combo.
I have not been impressed with Worship and Orshov Pontiff in the SB. Maybe I will be changing them to Aven Mindcensor.
So far my Record for games
8-Rack 4-2
GB Tron 0-2
Mardu Burn 2-1
Naya Zoo 4-2
Storm 2-0
KCI 2-0
The only hard loss was to GB tron. Walking ballista wrecked the deck. I was unable to find stony silence. Any suggestions in my list will be great. Thanks.
@ZEUS1478526
Spellskite is good vs Ballista. I'd suggest cutting both Worship and Stony, you don't want to mess up your Companies. Consider one Rec Sage in addition to the Pridemage. Mindcensor could be decent as well. Maybe even add a Phyrexian Revoker vs Ballista, KCI and Walkers. Sin Collector over Sculler might be nice vs Storm and Control. Pontiff seems fine, kills Goblins, small Bogles, some Delvers, Pyro tokens, and gives you an unexpected pump sometimes.
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I have never thought of phyrexian revoker as a SB. It may help but usually creatures have a downside that it can be easily answered. I would still like to keep some amount of stony silence in my 75. How do you side against tron matchups? How to deal with walking ballista?
Revoker has problems, yeah, but maybe still worth a try. What do you need Stony for that doesn't get answered by a mix of Decay/Pulse/Qasali/Rec Sage/Kataki? I'd board -1 Ooze, -1 Witness, -2 Finks, -1 Seer, +1 Pulse, +1 Mindcensor, +1 Qasali, +1 Sage, +1 Selfless Spirit or somesuch against classic Tron. Spellskite deals with Ballista best, but all artifact hate or general protection can work, timing is relevant. Also sometimes you can force them into saccing it early and then kill them with your follow-up.
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"I can call an army to my side in the blink of an eye. Best not blink."
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Thanks for the input. Your SB sounds reasonable. Will try it. My reason for including stony silence that it shuts down so many stuff like o-stone, ballista, map, relic of progenitus and mana fixers. I wish wizards would increase the number of SB to 20.
Going for an Eldritch Evolution Toolbox when it comes to our postboard hate-creatures. Still need to upgrade to Canopies and Hierarchs, but I can make due with Brushland and Arbor Elf until I have the money. More importantly, what am I missing in terms of sideboard material?
EDIT: Fleshed the list out to a full 75. Only thing I'm doubtinf now is the mana base (including dorks).
I side out Chords. We dont win by giving them the easiest Negate/Dispel targets and the only really great Chord plays are Selfless Spirit and Scooze in response to a sweeper pr snappi imo, plus keeps the non-creature count low.
Is UW really a bad matchup though? I've played against it pretty extensively against my friend, and he hasn't beaten me a single time. I've also let him SB against me while I remain on MB, and I still wreck him every time. Jeskai on the other hand seems nearly impossible to win against.
It'll never be a slam dunk win for him if he DOES win. Always a long Grindy game. I play Esper control sometimes and the GWx Vizier MU is a super long, hard fought game.
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I side out Chords. We dont win by giving them the easiest Negate/Dispel targets and the only really great Chord plays are Selfless Spirit and Scooze in response to a sweeper pr snappi imo, plus keeps the non-creature count low.
Is UW really a bad matchup though? I've played against it pretty extensively against my friend, and he hasn't beaten me a single time. I've also let him SB against me while I remain on MB, and I still wreck him every time. Jeskai on the other hand seems nearly impossible to win against.
I'm still on this deck as my main modern deck, been on it more or less since Vizier was printed.
I've chickened out of running it at larger events so far though, instead opting for "cheese" decks like titanshift. This was mostly due to lack of confidence in hitting decent matchups, worrying about too much titanshift, rather ironically.
Now I've segued into this deck and eldrazi tron as the decks in my deckbox. I'm hoping to just get to that point where my lines of play and gameplan choices can elevate me above matchup worries. Between the two decks I feel I'm covering most dodgy matchups and have a good shot at spiking a tournament.
I'll be feeding back with results periodically.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Has anyone put up results with a Bant Vizier list recently? I played the 4 Color Retreat deck that did well at the SCG Open Charlotte (which basically mashes Knightfall combo with Vizier Combo), and despite going 3-1 was thoroughly underwhelmed. A lot of times my opening hands were parts of the wrong combos. What I did really enjoy was rebuying CoCos with Eternal Witness, which is a staple of most Vizier lists. Adding blue to the mix also opens options like Reflector Mage and Spell Queller as silver bullets to CoCo for.
Anyone have any experience with that version of the deck?
Birds is a staple so no questions there; Arbor Elf is both a budget and a tech substitute for Hierarchs (Sandbagging Murmuring Bosk on T2 after Elf on T1 raises some questions), and Wall of Roots is both Chord and Evolution fodder (food for thought, if you spend rhe 5th G made from WoR to cast Evolution, you can sac wall as part of the cost for Evolution ... or at least the rulings were valid for Birthing Pod's cost).
Going for a 3/1 split between Witness and Rallier: with any luck I won't be having to hardcast Rallier, but instead using Evolution to trigger it later on as a sort of Recurring Nightmare-ish synergy.
Hi thread! I have a few questions about strategy/sideboarding with this deck
Vs jeskai control, which is the best way to win? So far I have not been able to win a single game. I've tried siding in decays (for queller), sin collector, lead the stampede and siding out chords but it doesn't seem like it's enough.
In the mirror, which cards do you usually side out? finks? I know that finks isn't the best there because infinite life is almost worthless but there are situations where you want to be attacking / don't want to be attacked, and finks is awesome at doing so.
Also, which is the consensus best way of beating valakut decks? I've tried siding 2 burrenton, and I've thought about magus of the moon, but they all seem too low impact... Sin collector is a card too, but even lower impact. Apart from going burrenton/selfless into druid, vizier, duskwatch I haven't found a way to win. So I don't know if I should board more burrenton/selfless effects or if I should go with mindcensor/moon kind of cards...
Hi thread! I have a few questions about strategy/sideboarding with this deck
Vs jeskai control, which is the best way to win? So far I have not been able to win a single game. I've tried siding in decays (for queller), sin collector, lead the stampede and siding out chords but it doesn't seem like it's enough.
In the mirror, which cards do you usually side out? finks? I know that finks isn't the best there because infinite life is almost worthless but there are situations where you want to be attacking / don't want to be attacked, and finks is awesome at doing so.
Also, which is the consensus best way of beating valakut decks? I've tried siding 2 burrenton, and I've thought about magus of the moon, but they all seem too low impact... Sin collector is a card too, but even lower impact. Apart from going burrenton/selfless into druid, vizier, duskwatch I haven't found a way to win. So I don't know if I should board more burrenton/selfless effects or if I should go with mindcensor/moon kind of cards...
Only way I win against valakut is either fast combo. (like double druid for redundancy and vizier) or combination of sin collectors and distended mindbenders.
I mean, selfless spirit helps a little bit to protect against anger, but I usually either need to be fast or heavy on disruption.. Not been happy with Aven mindcensor either.. It's a bad matchup.
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StaffI explained it in my reply to your original post. There are far too many downsides of playing Elf+Sprawl compared to just playing traditional manadorks. Plan B of Gavony Township becomes worse, Company hits become worse, you lose out on chumpblockers, you are open to Ghost Quarter on more than just Township and the biggest of all is that you need both cards to really make it work otherwise you should just be playing a normal dork. Too many inconsistencies with the deck would be created by playing those cards.
The same things go for people playing SSG. It does make a turn of the deck faster yes, but it also dilutes the deck at every other point of the game which overall makes it worse.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
I guess I was just thinking of a more consistent turn 3 kill speed against Tron and the faster archetypes. I did not consider what the metagame would actually look like.
Avatar and Signature by XenoNinja via Heroes of the Plane Studios
I'm still running 2 main and a third in the board and I really like having that additional 1-mana interaction for when I need it most. Plus it improves the currency of eternal witness by being able to (albeit slowly) machine gun an opposing boardstate away or even ramp off your own creatures.
I'm running 29 creatures (6 mana dorks, I haven't shaved any of those, it's "flex slots" only, none of the important stuff has been diluted) Essentially it's there instead of some unspecified 30th and 31st creatures in the main. Hasn't been a problem so far, and I've noticed a marked improvement by maybe 10% or so in my eldrazi/shadow matchups.
That was my overall reason for including the card in the main. The opportunity cost is low (amounts to a slightly increased probability of whiffing on a coco) but the payoff can be huge. If you draw a witness (or coco into one) that single path you've drawn can remove up to three creatures in a typical game. Witness is a force multiplier and path is the useful tool.
Now what's interesting about path's inclusion is that it doesn't "slow the deck down" per se, but it does (at a low rate) change the composition of your opening hands a bit. That said, for 2 spells out of 60 it brings a lot of insurance to your game 1 where you may rely on removing a difficult creature or disrupt an opposing combo, or even just bolster your beatdown plan if the combo doesn't quite assemble.
Here is my list
3 Forest
1 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Gavony township
1 Blooming Marsh
30 Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Devoted Druid
4 Vizier of remedies
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Visera Seer
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Rhonas
4 Collected Company
4 Chord of Calling
2 Path to Exile
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stony Silence
1 Kataki War's wage
2 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Worship
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
1 Orshov Pontiff
1 Burrenton Forge tender
I have not been impressed with Worship and Orshov Pontiff in the SB. Maybe I will be changing them to Aven Mindcensor.
So far my Record for games
8-Rack 4-2
GB Tron 0-2
Mardu Burn 2-1
Naya Zoo 4-2
Storm 2-0
KCI 2-0
The only hard loss was to GB tron. Walking ballista wrecked the deck. I was unable to find stony silence. Any suggestions in my list will be great. Thanks.
Spellskite is good vs Ballista. I'd suggest cutting both Worship and Stony, you don't want to mess up your Companies. Consider one Rec Sage in addition to the Pridemage. Mindcensor could be decent as well. Maybe even add a Phyrexian Revoker vs Ballista, KCI and Walkers. Sin Collector over Sculler might be nice vs Storm and Control. Pontiff seems fine, kills Goblins, small Bogles, some Delvers, Pyro tokens, and gives you an unexpected pump sometimes.
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Abzan Toolbox Primer
GWBAbzan CompanyBWG
GWBUGifts RockUBWG
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Abzan Toolbox Primer
GWBAbzan CompanyBWG
GWBUGifts RockUBWG
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Devoted Druid
3 Vizier of Remedies
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Anafenza Kin-Tree Spirit
1 Viscera Seer
4 Eternal Witness
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Flickerwisp
Spells (9)
4 Collected Company
4 Chord of Calling
1 Eldritch Evolution
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Temple Garden
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Murmuring Bosk
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Gavony Township
3 Path to Exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Manglehorn
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Eidolon of the Rhetoric
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Spellskite
1 Caustic Caterpillar
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Walking Ballista
Going for an Eldritch Evolution Toolbox when it comes to our postboard hate-creatures. Still need to upgrade to Canopies and Hierarchs, but I can make due with Brushland and Arbor Elf until I have the money. More importantly, what am I missing in terms of sideboard material?
EDIT: Fleshed the list out to a full 75. Only thing I'm doubtinf now is the mana base (including dorks).
Avatar and Signature by XenoNinja via Heroes of the Plane Studios
Is UW really a bad matchup though? I've played against it pretty extensively against my friend, and he hasn't beaten me a single time. I've also let him SB against me while I remain on MB, and I still wreck him every time. Jeskai on the other hand seems nearly impossible to win against.
Here's my list for reference: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/21-08-17-abzan-company/
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
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Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
It's a great matchup imo. I allmost never lose it. Only problem I've had a couple of times are the games can get so grindy and take too long.
I find Jeskai can go both ways, but we have the tools to beat them, and things like mindbender can wreck them.
I've chickened out of running it at larger events so far though, instead opting for "cheese" decks like titanshift. This was mostly due to lack of confidence in hitting decent matchups, worrying about too much titanshift, rather ironically.
Now I've segued into this deck and eldrazi tron as the decks in my deckbox. I'm hoping to just get to that point where my lines of play and gameplan choices can elevate me above matchup worries. Between the two decks I feel I'm covering most dodgy matchups and have a good shot at spiking a tournament.
I'll be feeding back with results periodically.
Anyone have any experience with that version of the deck?
2 Arbor Elf
1 Wall of Roots
Birds is a staple so no questions there; Arbor Elf is both a budget and a tech substitute for Hierarchs (Sandbagging Murmuring Bosk on T2 after Elf on T1 raises some questions), and Wall of Roots is both Chord and Evolution fodder (food for thought, if you spend rhe 5th G made from WoR to cast Evolution, you can sac wall as part of the cost for Evolution ... or at least the rulings were valid for Birthing Pod's cost).
3 Vizier of Remedies
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Walking Ballista
Standard.
1 Viscera Seer
1 Anafenza Kin-Tree Spirit
Standard.
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Renegade Rallier
1 Flickerwisp
Going for a 3/1 split between Witness and Rallier: with any luck I won't be having to hardcast Rallier, but instead using Evolution to trigger it later on as a sort of Recurring Nightmare-ish synergy.
4 Chord of Calling
1 Eldritch Evolution
Speaking of Evolution ... I'm devating on swapping 1 Chord out for another Evolution, but I know that doesnt bode well for grindy games.
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Murmuring Bosk
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Gavony Township
Not much to say here either.
So there is my current 60, any advice would be appreciated (in particular with making Rallier and Evolution useful together and separately).
Avatar and Signature by XenoNinja via Heroes of the Plane Studios
3 Unified Will
3 Path to Exile
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Walking Ballista
I saw some copies of Spell Queller and Reflector Mage but didn't catch anything else that wasn't standardized.
Do you have the 60? I'm very curious about it.
Vs jeskai control, which is the best way to win? So far I have not been able to win a single game. I've tried siding in decays (for queller), sin collector, lead the stampede and siding out chords but it doesn't seem like it's enough.
In the mirror, which cards do you usually side out? finks? I know that finks isn't the best there because infinite life is almost worthless but there are situations where you want to be attacking / don't want to be attacked, and finks is awesome at doing so.
Also, which is the consensus best way of beating valakut decks? I've tried siding 2 burrenton, and I've thought about magus of the moon, but they all seem too low impact... Sin collector is a card too, but even lower impact. Apart from going burrenton/selfless into druid, vizier, duskwatch I haven't found a way to win. So I don't know if I should board more burrenton/selfless effects or if I should go with mindcensor/moon kind of cards...
L: Maverick
Only way I win against valakut is either fast combo. (like double druid for redundancy and vizier) or combination of sin collectors and distended mindbenders.
I mean, selfless spirit helps a little bit to protect against anger, but I usually either need to be fast or heavy on disruption.. Not been happy with Aven mindcensor either.. It's a bad matchup.