I'd encourage anyone who is not satisfied with the current 2-drop suite to try out goyf again. The meta is much different than when this deck first came around. Many more decks are running graveyard based synergys. Even small goyfs are really not a bad thing when they are replacing weaker creatures like selfless spirit #2-3, scooze #3 and qasali #2-3. Renegade rallier really makes playing out the first goyf to eat whatever removal a real plan. Very solid turn 2 play when your dork gets bolted.
our two drops are great? im not sure why people think otherwise. Voice and ooze are both great in this DS format. the only 2 drop im medium on is selfless spirit but it serves a very specific purpose
our two drops are great? im not sure why people think otherwise. Voice and ooze are both great in this DS format. the only 2 drop im medium on is selfless spirit but it serves a very specific purpose
Our 2-drops are good utility, but they don't contribute to the combo plan in any way, and aren't heavy hitters like our 3-drop slot. This is totally fine, mind you, and Knightfall is doing great as a deck with a mix of utility, grindy beatdown and an occasional combo.
...But (and keep in mind I'm mostly theorycrafting here because I don't have testing results) there may be matchups where the linear combo plan offered by Druid/Vizier might be more proactively powerful, and that's uninteractive decks such as Tron, Ad Nauseam, maybe Dredge and Storm? Most of our 2-drops are usually useless in these matchups.
There is the obvious exception of Scooze vs. Storm and of course vs. Dredge, which makes me think we should run one Scooze in the main to find with Chord. Pridemage is decent against Ad Nauseam but not amazing.
I'd be interested to see if the Vizier version can perform in those matchups. It's possible it's just not worth it and we should all be sticking to the tried and true list. All I'm saying is don't write this version off just yet.
I think that the issue most people have with two drops in this deck is that they are useful, but none of them are finishers. Selfless and qasali have some utility, voice and ooze are great for buying some turns, but none of them end the game like knight or tracker or vendilion.
If we compare this deck to other midrange decks, for example BGx, our curve is much higher. If you read the articles that willy edel wrote about abzsn traverse, he explains that BGx usually has at most 8 cards with cmc 3+. Thats because they have a great finisher at the 2 cmc spot (goyf).
I dont think that our current 2 drops are bad, they contribute to the midrange gameplan and we can support tons of three drops just fine. And I dont like changing those two drops for the vizier combo, which is a finisher but totally unrelated with everything this deck does.
As before, maybe I'm wrong, but thats how I see it. I have the druid combo in paper so I'll test and report soon
I'm just getting this directly from Kelvin. He says the power level of the 2-drop suite the Knightfall deck ruins is not as high as 2 drops that enable POWERFUL interactions like the Vizier Druid combo, or Lotus Cobra.
Guys, I had my worst night of magic in a while, and my first 0-4.
0-2 vs traditional Jund - was unable to stick a threat in either game and drew scads of lands, opponent was running hot with terminates and pushes. Pulled out Quasali and Selfless for Finks, didnt see 'em. Doesen't seem like too bad a matchup
0-2 vs RB Goryo's - Went to 5 both games, drew many lands. T2 Emmy, T3 Emmy again in game 1, T2 Blood Moon in game 2. Seems like an awful matchup.
1-2 vs Storm - We all know this matchup is awful, thinking about going up to 2 Eidolon of Rhetoric, win was against a friend who knew to bring in Echoing Truth but I had the Queller. I'm running 2 Disdainful Stroke instead of Unified Will (haven't been able to find them locally, but might have a line of some for modern tomorrow) and it was fine, 3 Negates probably better.
0-2 vs Revolt Zoo - man this deck is gross, got hit with the nuts G1 (t1 Guide, T2 BTE, Herbalists, BTE, Bushwhacker, T3 A-Comm and a bolt to eat Spell Queller), G2 I went to a decent 5(ugh), but I screwed the pooch and threw down a 3/3 Knight instead of running out a fetch (I'll admit to being tilted, which feels rare for me) and it went downhill from there.
So I dunno, it felt like extremely poor running to me, drew back-to-back lands when I needed action and saw maybe 4 castable/on-time CoCos all night. Hopefully tomorrow is better. Gonna try Wheel of Sun and Moon, really been missing RiP since I've swapped over from Bant Spirits.
this is why we play cobra, t3 on the draw. I killed him t4 from 20 life through 2 blockers on t4 with kessig and some cute ghost quarter actions on my own lands.
made another 5-0 today. hopefully my list gets posted this time ^^
(my mtgo list is exactly that. for mtgo. I probably wouldnt be playing the same 75 in paper, just adapting to storm and druid combo online)
Just an update on what I've been testing in my Fauana Shaman list lately after a couple of weeks of just running super cold with your run of the mill stock Knightfall. The updates I'd made were pretty specific to the piss poor results against Abzan Company, Elves (with the Vizier Combo), and spell based combo (Ad Naus, Storm).
1x Courser of Kruphix / 1x Tireless Tracker MD - I've tossed and turned between quantities here. Trying 2 of 1 or a Split. Most time when you're in a position to toolbox via Shaman you're either looking to grab a Knight/Queller. But in specific MUs like Burn the first card I'll tutor up is Courser and often having a 2nd just shuts the Door or If I still have lands in hand vs. Decks like UW and sometimes Death's Shadow I want to grab Tracker to help dig for Path or generate value. 1x Aven Mindcensor MD - I wanted a MD hatebear capable of slowing down Abzan Company, Storm (Gifts), Big Mana Decks. Functioning at instant speed with Fuana Shaman is definitely an additional perk. It can also be pretty potent vs. Death's Shadow variants unstable 12x Fetch Manabase. 1x Scavenging Ooze MD - I'm 100% sure the quantity should be 2 MD but I've been testing as a 1/1 split between MD/SB. Finding space has been a challenge. 1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence SB - I think this card is going to be a powerhouse going forward being extremely powerful in a number of MUs. 0x Unified Will SB - I'll be honest, the only time I miss this card right now is when my opponent is resolving a Primeval Titan. Negate does a fine job in the MUs where I want counterspells and plays well in the Burn MU. I could still be talked off this ledge.
hey man i dig your take here, linvala does seem more and more enticing to me as well, and especially in your fauna shell. I love this about our deck that people have all kinds of flavors that all work!!!! yay! Wish me luck in baltimore guys!
Redemption today guys, 3-0 against Storm, Bant Eldrazi and U-Tron. Drew well and had great openers, combo'd out against Storm and Eldrazi in the first games. Went to two Eidolons and it felt solid, Sun and Moon seemed like a decent simulacrum for RiP.
Anybody else test with goyf like wpgstevo? I'm kind of curious myself. I'd want to run 2 maybe. I would love another beater honestly when we need to put pressure on ppl.
Also anybody run fairgrounds warden or something else in place of reflector mage? I find myself increasingly frustrated with reflector, it seems to only put off the inevitable most of the time for me.
Played the deck at a small 5-rounder GPT for vegas. Matches went Bant Eldrazi W 2-1, Burn L 1-2, BTL Scapeshift W 2-0, Lantern Control W 2-1, Burn W 2-1. Finished 1st on breaks after swiss and dropped out of the cut since I had already won the prizes and wasn't going to GP vegas anyways. Goyf was a squire one turn out of the whole event, and otherwise got up to 3/4 and 4/5 quickly enough to be a real clock. Pretty much always happy to get goyf. Can't emphasize enough how important a followup the goyf is when your dork gets bolted. I would have put a kor firewalker in the board if I had known there would be so much burn today.
This being said, going for two copies of Vizier seems like a good way to play that combo without being all-in on it. Harsh Mentor does seem great against opposing Vizier decks.
Note the horrendous mislabeling as "Counters Company". I don't understand how that name gained traction despite the majority of the community hating it.
I'm sorry but I fail to see how goyf is better than ooze in the current meta, ooze is great vs dredge, storm, snapcaster decks, traverse decks, goyf decks, stops the infinite life combo from abzan and helps handle the 4 eternal witnesses some are running. has relevant text against burn and zoo.
the only matchup I think I would want goyfs is vs ad nauseum as ooze isnt really as fast a clock g1.
I feel like the lack of gavony and tracker really weakens your ability to grind, The synergy in the deck is much better than just having a beater like goyf. you have a threat in kotr. and failing that its not uncommon to just tempo people out with spell queller and exalted triggers.
I play 2 Scooze in the 75 as well so it's not like I am saying Scooze is bad. Rather, it is just less important to see in a given matchup. Tarmogoyf is a great beater in these grindy matchups you want gavony and scooze for, while being a much better clock in the other matchups like ad nauseam, tron/eldazi, storm, eggs etc.
Notably I'm playing the second ghost quarter over gavony township for some harder matchups like tron/eldrazi. Given this decision, I think Renegade Rallier is a superior grindy card to Tireless tracker. Not only does it help the ghost quarter game plan against ramp decks, but it is especially relevant when playing goyf as you can easily get 7+ power on the board when you bring back a goyf. The increased average power output from your Cocos is also notable (and easy to underestimate).
Note that Scooze and tracker are a bit mana intensive, something I'm trying to avoid - I'll dump my extra mana into Kessig on most turns.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
3x Forest
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Kessig Wolf Run
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Plains
1x Stomping Ground
2x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
4x Path to Exile
4x Collected Company
2x Retreat to Coralhelm
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Selfless Spirit
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Voice of Resurgence
1x Courser of Kruphix
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Renegade Rallier
3x Spell Queller
1x Reflector Mage
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Stony Silence
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Meddling Mage
2x Negate
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Rhox War Monk
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Our 2-drops are good utility, but they don't contribute to the combo plan in any way, and aren't heavy hitters like our 3-drop slot. This is totally fine, mind you, and Knightfall is doing great as a deck with a mix of utility, grindy beatdown and an occasional combo.
...But (and keep in mind I'm mostly theorycrafting here because I don't have testing results) there may be matchups where the linear combo plan offered by Druid/Vizier might be more proactively powerful, and that's uninteractive decks such as Tron, Ad Nauseam, maybe Dredge and Storm? Most of our 2-drops are usually useless in these matchups.
There is the obvious exception of Scooze vs. Storm and of course vs. Dredge, which makes me think we should run one Scooze in the main to find with Chord. Pridemage is decent against Ad Nauseam but not amazing.
I'd be interested to see if the Vizier version can perform in those matchups. It's possible it's just not worth it and we should all be sticking to the tried and true list. All I'm saying is don't write this version off just yet.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
If we compare this deck to other midrange decks, for example BGx, our curve is much higher. If you read the articles that willy edel wrote about abzsn traverse, he explains that BGx usually has at most 8 cards with cmc 3+. Thats because they have a great finisher at the 2 cmc spot (goyf).
I dont think that our current 2 drops are bad, they contribute to the midrange gameplan and we can support tons of three drops just fine. And I dont like changing those two drops for the vizier combo, which is a finisher but totally unrelated with everything this deck does.
As before, maybe I'm wrong, but thats how I see it. I have the druid combo in paper so I'll test and report soon
L: Maverick
0-2 vs traditional Jund - was unable to stick a threat in either game and drew scads of lands, opponent was running hot with terminates and pushes. Pulled out Quasali and Selfless for Finks, didnt see 'em. Doesen't seem like too bad a matchup
0-2 vs RB Goryo's - Went to 5 both games, drew many lands. T2 Emmy, T3 Emmy again in game 1, T2 Blood Moon in game 2. Seems like an awful matchup.
1-2 vs Storm - We all know this matchup is awful, thinking about going up to 2 Eidolon of Rhetoric, win was against a friend who knew to bring in Echoing Truth but I had the Queller. I'm running 2 Disdainful Stroke instead of Unified Will (haven't been able to find them locally, but might have a line of some for modern tomorrow) and it was fine, 3 Negates probably better.
0-2 vs Revolt Zoo - man this deck is gross, got hit with the nuts G1 (t1 Guide, T2 BTE, Herbalists, BTE, Bushwhacker, T3 A-Comm and a bolt to eat Spell Queller), G2 I went to a decent 5(ugh), but I screwed the pooch and threw down a 3/3 Knight instead of running out a fetch (I'll admit to being tilted, which feels rare for me) and it went downhill from there.
So I dunno, it felt like extremely poor running to me, drew back-to-back lands when I needed action and saw maybe 4 castable/on-time CoCos all night. Hopefully tomorrow is better. Gonna try Wheel of Sun and Moon, really been missing RiP since I've swapped over from Bant Spirits.
this is why we play cobra, t3 on the draw. I killed him t4 from 20 life through 2 blockers on t4 with kessig and some cute ghost quarter actions on my own lands.
made another 5-0 today. hopefully my list gets posted this time ^^
(my mtgo list is exactly that. for mtgo. I probably wouldnt be playing the same 75 in paper, just adapting to storm and druid combo online)
Just an update on what I've been testing in my Fauana Shaman list lately after a couple of weeks of just running super cold with your run of the mill stock Knightfall. The updates I'd made were pretty specific to the piss poor results against Abzan Company, Elves (with the Vizier Combo), and spell based combo (Ad Naus, Storm).
3x Birds of Paradise
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Eternal Witness
3x Fauna Shaman
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Selfless Spirit
4x Spell Queller
1x Tireless Tracker
3x Voice of Resurgence
Enchantment (2)
2x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Breeding Pool
1x Flooded Strand
3x Forest
1x Gavony Township
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Hallowed Fountain
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Kessig Wolf Run
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Plains
1x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
Instant (8)
4x Collected Company
4x Path to Exile
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Kataki, War's Wage
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Negate
1x Eldritch Evolution
2x Reflector Mage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Spellskite
A couple of talking points on card selection:
1x Courser of Kruphix / 1x Tireless Tracker MD - I've tossed and turned between quantities here. Trying 2 of 1 or a Split. Most time when you're in a position to toolbox via Shaman you're either looking to grab a Knight/Queller. But in specific MUs like Burn the first card I'll tutor up is Courser and often having a 2nd just shuts the Door or If I still have lands in hand vs. Decks like UW and sometimes Death's Shadow I want to grab Tracker to help dig for Path or generate value.
1x Aven Mindcensor MD - I wanted a MD hatebear capable of slowing down Abzan Company, Storm (Gifts), Big Mana Decks. Functioning at instant speed with Fuana Shaman is definitely an additional perk. It can also be pretty potent vs. Death's Shadow variants unstable 12x Fetch Manabase.
1x Scavenging Ooze MD - I'm 100% sure the quantity should be 2 MD but I've been testing as a 1/1 split between MD/SB. Finding space has been a challenge.
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence SB - I think this card is going to be a powerhouse going forward being extremely powerful in a number of MUs.
0x Unified Will SB - I'll be honest, the only time I miss this card right now is when my opponent is resolving a Primeval Titan. Negate does a fine job in the MUs where I want counterspells and plays well in the Burn MU. I could still be talked off this ledge.
Also anybody run fairgrounds warden or something else in place of reflector mage? I find myself increasingly frustrated with reflector, it seems to only put off the inevitable most of the time for me.
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Flooded Strand
1x Horizon Canopy
2x Temple Garden
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Stomping Ground
3x Forest
1x Plains
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Kessig Wolf Run
4x Path to Exile
4x Collected Company
2x Retreat to Coralhelm
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Selfless Spirit
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Voice of Resurgence
1x Courser of Kruphix
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Renegade Rallier
3x Spell Queller
1x Reflector Mage
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Stony Silence
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Meddling Mage
2x Negate
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Rhox War Monk
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
This being said, going for two copies of Vizier seems like a good way to play that combo without being all-in on it. Harsh Mentor does seem great against opposing Vizier decks.
Note the horrendous mislabeling as "Counters Company". I don't understand how that name gained traction despite the majority of the community hating it.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
the only matchup I think I would want goyfs is vs ad nauseum as ooze isnt really as fast a clock g1.
I feel like the lack of gavony and tracker really weakens your ability to grind, The synergy in the deck is much better than just having a beater like goyf. you have a threat in kotr. and failing that its not uncommon to just tempo people out with spell queller and exalted triggers.
Notably I'm playing the second ghost quarter over gavony township for some harder matchups like tron/eldrazi. Given this decision, I think Renegade Rallier is a superior grindy card to Tireless tracker. Not only does it help the ghost quarter game plan against ramp decks, but it is especially relevant when playing goyf as you can easily get 7+ power on the board when you bring back a goyf. The increased average power output from your Cocos is also notable (and easy to underestimate).
Note that Scooze and tracker are a bit mana intensive, something I'm trying to avoid - I'll dump my extra mana into Kessig on most turns.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpkob17/9th-32nd-decklists-2017-05-28
I would say it's too early to tell whether the Vizier version is better or worse than the traditional list, but it's safe to say that it IS viable.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB