I agree with you on your points about why Kelvin Chew runs the card.
I'm pointing out in response to the other poster when he says that high placing decks don't run evolution, which is obviously not true. And his assertions that Evolution is a bad card because high placing decks don't run it are therefore unfounded. And the reasons that he stated as to why it's not good are subjective at best.
I believe that Evolution's power comes mainly from its flexibility of use in deck construction which differs widely for different players in different metas.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Kelvin Chew has been playing 1-of evolution in the side of normal Knightfall since GP brisbane (11th place). And I believe has made several MTGO 5-0s and good MOCS finishes with it since before gp brisbane and some period after it.
His updated normal Knightfall list in his latest article still recommends 1 copy in the sideboard even though he has since switched to vizier knightfall.
Whatever your arguments are against evolution in normal knightfall, no high placing decks running it isn't a valid one.
As bentobocx pointed out, Kevin uses Eldritch evolution as a supplement to his combo game, not in order to find silver bullets in the side. (E.G. It's actually winning you the game) This is because at that particular time, the combo game was more prominent vs. decks like titanshift (now tier 3), and things like GDS did not yet represent a significant portion of the meta. I do not believe this is a particularly successful strategy at the moment.
Of course we can argue that it hasn't shown results. Kevin Chew's success is not an end all, be all. I might as well try to argue that Taking Turns is in fact a tier 1 deck based on the recent GP top 8. We can very easily check deck lists which have done well here: http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=222&meta=44&f=MO If you check the meta, one, count it one collected bant deck in the past 2 months has played eldritch, including all the MTGO Modern league placings. Additionally, none of Kevin's decklists are available, because they haven't made the top of tournaments.
It's also widely known that wizards does not publish all 5-0 decks. He's made some references to his MTGO performances on his Facebook page and his articles. Admittedly somewhat outdated because they're from before amonkhet and the PT.
You're right that his success is not the be all end all of how the decks should be constructed. But a platinum pro's words as an opinion leader also holds more weight.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
What I'm saying is that sacrificing a creature and blowing 3 mana is only worth it if it wins you the game.
We'll just have to disagree with this. Sacrificing a mana dork for something better, even on T2, is fine with me in a lot of cases.
The comment on improving the combo game is a relevant one as well. In a matchup like Burn/Affinity/Storm/Whatever, the Evo isn't just your Finks/RecSage/Eidolon - it's another KotR. The card pulls double-duty in these MUs.
Regarding Bento's talk about tons of silver bullets: this is kind of presumptive. Running Evo doesn't in any way mean you butcher your sideboard for it. It's a one-of that gives me a bit more space/flexibility. I don't have to fill that space with a ton of dudes that I wouldn't be playing otherwise, and I don't. It's just solid because we're already pushed in the direction of playing creature sideboard cards. A great example of this is Kelvin's posted list, where none of his fetchable cards are even one-ofs. Still extra copies.
We also shouldn't avoid running a card because it's 'bad' against GDS. What about the other 88% of the format?
Not playing the card is 100% defensible. It certainly has an opportunity cost to run. But it's also a totally playable and solid card in our strategy.
A one of seems great. It can be a game winning top deck when the situation provides you with the opportunities to do these amazing things you just mentioned.
Nice Work Malko! I too have been playing Kelvin's vizier knightfall list and have been doing fairly well. I did have a run of bad luck this weekend though in a 60 man 1k paper event where I ran into eldrazi tron rounds 1 and 2 and lost both in 3 games. The games that i won were easy combo wins and the games that i lost were grindy bu felt pretty unfavored. How has the matchup been in your experience? Any advice for me? I need to improve this matchup if im going to keep bringing vizier knightfall to paper events at my lgs.
Nice Work Malko! I too have been playing Kelvin's vizier knightfall list and have been doing fairly well. I did have a run of bad luck this weekend though in a 60 man 1k paper event where I ran into eldrazi tron rounds 1 and 2 and lost both in 3 games. The games that i won were easy combo wins and the games that i lost were grindy bu felt pretty unfavored. How has the matchup been in your experience? Any advice for me? I need to improve this matchup if im going to keep bringing vizier knightfall to paper events at my lgs.
Just built this deck this past weekend at GP cleveland, although im running elvish mystics instead of hierarchs atm.(was thinking about running arbor elf instead just to help with w/u mana till I can grab the nobles) Played in a tourney tonight and won, but looking for a bit of help with board. currently running 2 negate, 3 leyline, 2 Ref mage, 2 RIP, 2 Stony silence, 1 finks, 1 blessed alliance, 1 courser, and cant remember the last card atm. Local meta has a lot of burn , fish, and tron. Looking for some input if possible.
also, i guess I should say im running a non druid combo version
So, I've been on an absolute tear with Kelvin's Vizier Knightfall mashup deck lately, putting up a 33-7 (!) result over the past 8 leagues
That's amazing. One question, do you think that the retreats are still useful in that deck? Both combos are a bit unrelated and it seems weird to run them together.
So I took a look at hour of devastation spoilers and I came across Ramunap Excavator. What do you think about it?
It's a great card, I have no doubt about it. I already bought two azusa for the reasons you mentioned. Anyway, I don't think it does that much for knightfall as it does for GW company (the one that Todd Stevens played). That deck already ran crucible and azusa, and has way more utility lands than we do (4 quarters and 2 horizon canopy).
A bit offtopic but I want to mention it. Trasno, I'll be going to Impact Returns at Naron. I guess that you will go there too (your description says that you live there) so we might be able to meet and talk about knightfall
How has the (eldrazi tron) matchup been in your experience? Any advice for me?
As Malko said, I feel like it's slightly favored. Reflector mage is a good card, same for blessed alliance. I want to discuss how to sideboard against them because I'm not totally sure. Advice is welcome.
-3 Birds of paradise (they usually keep the chalices because of path to exile, so maybe cutting some dorks is fine)
-1 Spell Queller (There are some targets, but not a lot of them. I usually want it as a flash flier, and vendilion is better for that)
-2 Selfless Spirit (does absolutely nothing)
-2 Retreat to Coralhelm (they usually run 4 relics in the 75, and combo is bad vs TKS)
-1 Courser -1 witness (not impactful enough)
+1 Gaddock Teeg (Stops karn, all is dust and late game chalices)
+3 Reflector mage
+2 Blessed alliance
+1 vendilion clique
+2 Unified will (I want to counter all is dust. This are okay, negate is probably too narrow)
+1 eldritch evolution
Looking for a bit of help with board. currently running 2 negate, 3 leyline, 2 Ref mage, 2 RIP, 2 Stony silence, 1 finks, 1 blessed alliance, 1 courser, and cant remember the last card atm. Local meta has a lot of burn , fish, and tron. Looking for some input if possible.
You could put a second ghost quarter and some unified wills for tron, one worship for merfolk and some anti burn card (courser/burrenton/rhox war monk) instead of leyline and RIP, which are mediocre cards in this deck.
Thanks for the input, ill have to grab a worship. For another question, how screwed is the deck vs skred/GR ponza? My local meta is fairly diverse, but i guess with there being at most 3 blood moon decks i shouldnt worry too much
Good stuff. Although you touched on the Grixis Shadow matchup, I'd like to hear more about how that matchup has been for you (main-board and post-board)? That deck is my main concern right now when I evaluate basically anything, and it seems to me that those matches are very rarely won through combo, and more often won through attrition. So, I'm wondering how you think the Vizier version is positioned vis-a-vis the traditional version against Grixis?
Izzet Staticaster is a great sideboard card against Affinity. Many lists are also running MB Qasali Pridemage.
You can definitely run Stony Silence, Kataki, Reclamation Sage and Manglehorn has additional sideboard cards against Affinity and other Artifact decks. When I last played the deck I had 2 Staticaster, 1 Manglehorn & 1 Rec Sage in the board in addition to 1 MB Qasali Pridemage.
I've never played against Dredge with this deck (no one plays it locally, never see it on cockatrice), but I believe our plan is to gum up the board and prevent them from casting Conflagrate via exiling it with Scooze. Since the banning dredge has lost both speed and consistency, so a deck like ours that just plays a bunch of dudes and fliers can actually outgrind them if we don't let them board wipe us. Some people have advocated running Rhox War Monk for the dredge matchup, basically because Dredge can't race it.
Would knightfall 'need' to run more than one ghost quarter and horizon canopy? I could see running a second ghost quarter in the sideboard, but with knights we're able to pull up our singleton when we land ramunap excavator for repeatable shenanigans.
How many excavator are you thinking of running? I think the 3-drop section is pretty crowded as-is.
x4 Knight, x4 Queller, x1 Courser, x1 Tracker, x1 Excavator ?
x10 2-drops,
x7 dorks.
Hey Axel,
This list looks interesting and I'm wanting to give GW company a shot. How are the matchups against the big decks in the meta? What are the weaknesses? Could you possibly splash U and squeeze in reflector mages :D?
Wanting to make the switch. Ive been playing the Knightfall Vizier recently, and it feels much more gimmicky and vulnerable than the traditional lists. I'm convinced that a pile of good cards is better suited for me.
Thanks!
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I'm pointing out in response to the other poster when he says that high placing decks don't run evolution, which is obviously not true. And his assertions that Evolution is a bad card because high placing decks don't run it are therefore unfounded. And the reasons that he stated as to why it's not good are subjective at best.
I believe that Evolution's power comes mainly from its flexibility of use in deck construction which differs widely for different players in different metas.
As bentobocx pointed out, Kevin uses Eldritch evolution as a supplement to his combo game, not in order to find silver bullets in the side. (E.G. It's actually winning you the game) This is because at that particular time, the combo game was more prominent vs. decks like titanshift (now tier 3), and things like GDS did not yet represent a significant portion of the meta. I do not believe this is a particularly successful strategy at the moment.
Of course we can argue that it hasn't shown results. Kevin Chew's success is not an end all, be all. I might as well try to argue that Taking Turns is in fact a tier 1 deck based on the recent GP top 8. We can very easily check deck lists which have done well here: http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=222&meta=44&f=MO If you check the meta, one, count it one collected bant deck in the past 2 months has played eldritch, including all the MTGO Modern league placings. Additionally, none of Kevin's decklists are available, because they haven't made the top of tournaments.
UWUW ControlUW
UGWSpiritsUGW
GHardened ScalesG
WGRUKiki PodWGRU [RIP]
You're right that his success is not the be all end all of how the decks should be constructed. But a platinum pro's words as an opinion leader also holds more weight.
We'll just have to disagree with this. Sacrificing a mana dork for something better, even on T2, is fine with me in a lot of cases.
The comment on improving the combo game is a relevant one as well. In a matchup like Burn/Affinity/Storm/Whatever, the Evo isn't just your Finks/RecSage/Eidolon - it's another KotR. The card pulls double-duty in these MUs.
Regarding Bento's talk about tons of silver bullets: this is kind of presumptive. Running Evo doesn't in any way mean you butcher your sideboard for it. It's a one-of that gives me a bit more space/flexibility. I don't have to fill that space with a ton of dudes that I wouldn't be playing otherwise, and I don't. It's just solid because we're already pushed in the direction of playing creature sideboard cards. A great example of this is Kelvin's posted list, where none of his fetchable cards are even one-ofs. Still extra copies.
We also shouldn't avoid running a card because it's 'bad' against GDS. What about the other 88% of the format?
Not playing the card is 100% defensible. It certainly has an opportunity cost to run. But it's also a totally playable and solid card in our strategy.
also, i guess I should say im running a non druid combo version
That's amazing. One question, do you think that the retreats are still useful in that deck? Both combos are a bit unrelated and it seems weird to run them together.
It's a great card, I have no doubt about it. I already bought two azusa for the reasons you mentioned. Anyway, I don't think it does that much for knightfall as it does for GW company (the one that Todd Stevens played). That deck already ran crucible and azusa, and has way more utility lands than we do (4 quarters and 2 horizon canopy).
A bit offtopic but I want to mention it. Trasno, I'll be going to Impact Returns at Naron. I guess that you will go there too (your description says that you live there) so we might be able to meet and talk about knightfall
As Malko said, I feel like it's slightly favored. Reflector mage is a good card, same for blessed alliance. I want to discuss how to sideboard against them because I'm not totally sure. Advice is welcome.
1 Botanical Sanctum
1 Breeding Pool
1 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
//Creatures
3 Birds of Paradise
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Selfless Spirit
4 Spell Queller
1 Spellskite
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Voice of Resurgence
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Eldritch Evolution
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Unified Will
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Negate
3 Reflector Mage
2 Izzet Staticaster
-3 Birds of paradise (they usually keep the chalices because of path to exile, so maybe cutting some dorks is fine)
-1 Spell Queller (There are some targets, but not a lot of them. I usually want it as a flash flier, and vendilion is better for that)
-2 Selfless Spirit (does absolutely nothing)
-2 Retreat to Coralhelm (they usually run 4 relics in the 75, and combo is bad vs TKS)
-1 Courser -1 witness (not impactful enough)
+1 Gaddock Teeg (Stops karn, all is dust and late game chalices)
+3 Reflector mage
+2 Blessed alliance
+1 vendilion clique
+2 Unified will (I want to counter all is dust. This are okay, negate is probably too narrow)
+1 eldritch evolution
You could put a second ghost quarter and some unified wills for tron, one worship for merfolk and some anti burn card (courser/burrenton/rhox war monk) instead of leyline and RIP, which are mediocre cards in this deck.
L: Maverick
Good stuff. Although you touched on the Grixis Shadow matchup, I'd like to hear more about how that matchup has been for you (main-board and post-board)? That deck is my main concern right now when I evaluate basically anything, and it seems to me that those matches are very rarely won through combo, and more often won through attrition. So, I'm wondering how you think the Vizier version is positioned vis-a-vis the traditional version against Grixis?
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
Started playing reflector knightfall and was curious about a couple things.
- why no artifact hate in the side? My meta has a lot of affinity and eggs.
- how's the dredge matchup? Played it once, got smoked, looking for help
Main matchups are: artifact decks, grixis decks
You can definitely run Stony Silence, Kataki, Reclamation Sage and Manglehorn has additional sideboard cards against Affinity and other Artifact decks. When I last played the deck I had 2 Staticaster, 1 Manglehorn & 1 Rec Sage in the board in addition to 1 MB Qasali Pridemage.
I've never played against Dredge with this deck (no one plays it locally, never see it on cockatrice), but I believe our plan is to gum up the board and prevent them from casting Conflagrate via exiling it with Scooze. Since the banning dredge has lost both speed and consistency, so a deck like ours that just plays a bunch of dudes and fliers can actually outgrind them if we don't let them board wipe us. Some people have advocated running Rhox War Monk for the dredge matchup, basically because Dredge can't race it.
It's actually also great VS Dredge (Narcomoeba, Bloodghast, Golgari Thug).
How many excavator are you thinking of running? I think the 3-drop section is pretty crowded as-is.
x4 Knight, x4 Queller, x1 Courser, x1 Tracker, x1 Excavator ?
x10 2-drops,
x7 dorks.
This list looks interesting and I'm wanting to give GW company a shot. How are the matchups against the big decks in the meta? What are the weaknesses? Could you possibly splash U and squeeze in reflector mages :D?
Wanting to make the switch. Ive been playing the Knightfall Vizier recently, and it feels much more gimmicky and vulnerable than the traditional lists. I'm convinced that a pile of good cards is better suited for me.
Thanks!