probably a blue black pain lands mixed with fast lands, or black red pain lands and fast lands. mix them together if you are going grixis instead of just 2 color
In addition to pain and fastlands ad Dos_Rouge said, you can try with scry temples as well.
i wouldn't bother with the scry temples. reason being is they enter the field tapped.
thing is this is a turn 3 deck, up until turn 3/3 land drops all of your fast lands are guarenteed to come into the battlefield untapped.
the way i see such lands as the scry temples or even the manlands is there enter play tapped puts you at risk of one of them being your only 3rd land drop. which messes up your consistency of going "3rd land, cast footsteps of the goryo and win!"
dont get hung up on just turn 3 consistency, for those who want to be really fast, such lands mess up your turn 2 consistency, despite having simian spirit guides
It is the same number of moving pieces as the Lark+Mogg finisher (so maybe testing it isn't worth the effort) but I'm pretty sure the ping-loop will require far fewer clicks in MTGO.
It is the same number of moving pieces as the Lark+Mogg finisher (so maybe testing it isn't worth the effort) but I'm pretty sure the ping-loop will require far fewer clicks in MTGO.
This is actually a pretty cool loop. I'm not sure if it is better but it reminds me of the Triskeliion kill in EDH i see with Mikeaus.
EDIT: stated something a bit incorrectly. fixed now.
I've yet to start goldfishing, but I have a few questions.
1) Which is the better win con -- Mogg Fanatic or Blood Cultist? Should I change this list to accommodate Mogg?
2) What should I put in my sideboard? I just don't know what this deck needs in order to improve bad matchups.
Any help is greatly appreciated!
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The difference is fairly marginal, but the big benefit to Mogg Fanatic is that it can function as creature removal in some scenarios. This doesn't come up often since it would only usually matter if you draw Mogg (or Cultist) naturally, but Cultist gaining you life is as far as I can tell almost always irrelevant since you're dealing infinite damage at the same time.
Other considerations are that Cultist drains rather than dealing damage (it's possible that this could be relevant, but I don't know that it is), and that Mogg can effectively wipe the opponent's board while you're going off (kill their True Believer?).
None of these edge cases come up often, but the scenarios that favor Mogg come up more often, so I give it the nod.
The Thing in the Ice's in the sideboard are currently an experiment, trying out a plan B that doesn't fold to the typical combo hate (in a small sample size, it's been pretty good).
Question from somebody new to the deck: does the kill card actually have to have 1 cmc? Doesn't the combo loop give you free hulk activations?
1: Sac Hulk
2: Get Seer, Body Double (Hulk)
3: Sac Double, get double (hulk)
4: Sac double, get reveillark
5: Sac reveillark, return double (hulk), double (reveillark)
6: Sac double (hulk), get whatever
7-infinite: loop whatever, body double, reveillark
This would allow for Zulaport Cutthroat as the kill card to work around leyline shenanigans. Is the concern about a body double getting stuck in hand? It seems like most of the discard outlets used to get Hulk in the yard would allow one to dump a body double at the same time.
Manic Scribe could mill people out without targeting, and Gonti, Lord of Luxury requires targeting but can mill out decks containing Eldrazi.
Hi guys, looking to try this deck again. I'm cautious about grave hate, but with Venser and grave titan that should be okay. I can't seem to find a list I like, however.
I would like to use through the breach, either in addition to or instead of mannequin, to rely on the graveyard less, though that may have to be post sideboard.
Are there any lists running green? Sultai charm seems fantastic, and abrupt decay/maelstrom pulse would also be extremely good against typical hate cards.
Anyway, could anyone post a list that uses through the breach, and has a grave titan squeezed in mainboard? And a Venser side or main? Anyone else trying green?
I played a list briefly a long time ago, that ran an Obzedat. Is that still considered decent?
Question from somebody new to the deck: does the kill card actually have to have 1 cmc? Doesn't the combo loop give you free hulk activations?...
Yes, the combo loop can give enough free hulk activations to tutor you into basically any Reveillark-returnable wincons. In the first page of the primer, your same scenario is basically spelled out in the "Playing around creature kill" and "Playing around Leyline of Sanctity" sections under the "Winning with Bubble Hulk" spoiler.
But, like you said, drawing a Body Double is a concern. If Double was in your opener, you can absolutely discard one along with Hulk, but if you draw her on the turn you're planning to Goryos-off you've delayed your win by a turn. The default wincon of Hulk-->(Double(as Hulk)+Seer)-->(Mogg+Lark) is preferred because it only requires one of each piece. This means you can run a very minimal Hulk target 'package' within a deck that is mostly card selection and Hulk reanimation. Running a >1cmc kill card maindeck is trading the streamlined kill and some hand redundancy away, for the ability to beat a game-1 Leyline (which is pretty edge-case).
Tolaria being 1UU to tutor seems pretty costly when there's plenty of card selection with the Looting/Cantrip/Scheming plans that most folks are running. As it is, most Bubble Hulk lists play out more like Ad Nauseam than they do BTL Scapeshift; a 3cmc tutor like Tolaria seems like it'd be more at home in a reactive BTL type shell.
Has anyone tested Squee, Goblin Nabob? With all the draw->discard spells we use, I figure we might as well turn that into card advantage. Like the old school days of Vintage, before Dredge was a mechanic, Bazaar of Baghdad was typically seen in decks along with Squee, and to good effect.
I have been messing around with it a little, but think I need to rework the deck a little to really take advantage of it. Are there any other good draw->discard that might work well here? Does this maybe open us up to Thirst for Knowledge?
Edit: I've been thinking again about Gifts Ungiven. Possibly using a gifts package that looks something like Protean Hulk, Footsteps of the Goryo, Noxious Revival, and a flexible card of choice. Makeshift Mannequin would work for some redundancy, but you run the risk of being given Hulk and Revival with no way to discard. I think a better option is probably using Through the Breach, that way no matter what you get stuck with, you can combo. However, the real question is, can we wait till turn 5 to combo?
Strategic Planning is entering Modern with HOU, is it better or worse than Contingency Plan/Taigam's Scheming? For 1B sorcery speed, it digs 3 cards deep and puts two in grave and one to our hand. It is worse against discard decks but can allow for wins the turn you cast it if you have mana and needed a reanimation spell (with Scheming you need to wait for 1 turn).
Strategic Planning is entering Modern with HOU, is it better or worse than Contingency Plan/Taigam's Scheming? For 1B sorcery speed, it digs 3 cards deep and puts two in grave and one to our hand. It is worse against discard decks but can allow for wins the turn you cast it if you have mana and needed a reanimation spell (with Scheming you need to wait for 1 turn).
I came here to talk about the same. Strategic Planning saw some play in Vintage when Thirst for Knowledge got restricted. It was in Slaver lists that operated in a similar way to our deck. Get Mindslaver into the graveyard and "reanimate" with Goblin Welder. So I can see it being useful in our deck. However, we have access to 4x Thirst for Knowledge if we want. In my current build I run Thirst for Knowledge and it works well with Squee, Goblin Nabob. The only real draw back to TfK, is that it cost 2U, while Strategic Planning only cost 1U. So, I can see games where you play a turn two Strategic Planning followed up by a turn three Footsteps of the Goryo. With TfK, you're talking turn four before you can cast Footsteps.
Basically, the deck plays Hardened Scales and Winding Constrictor so that it can play Hangarback Walker and Walking Ballista for value even when it isn't combo'ing off. When it finally does turn the corner, Dubious Challenge will flip the top 10 cards of your library (typically being 50 cards or less by the time you hit your fourth land), which will ideally reveal some combination of Hulk/Mikaeus that should enable the combo kill. Otherwise, hardcasting a turn-6 Mikaeus is another way to win the game if things go long.
The deck definitely loses the turn-3 (nutrdraw turn-2) speed that @maverickzero's deck has, but (at least for me) being able to put chumpblockers out early makes me feel like I'm faceplanting less often when my draws don't give me the combo.
The landbase is rough clay and would probably be optimized with more fetches and some way to hardcast Phantasmal Image. CoCo is a remnant of earlier brews, probably the 4th Scales or another Hangarback would be better.
Probably worse than the tried and true lists of the past, but it's been fun in my goldfish testing. Enjoy!
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i wouldn't bother with the scry temples. reason being is they enter the field tapped.
thing is this is a turn 3 deck, up until turn 3/3 land drops all of your fast lands are guarenteed to come into the battlefield untapped.
the way i see such lands as the scry temples or even the manlands is there enter play tapped puts you at risk of one of them being your only 3rd land drop. which messes up your consistency of going "3rd land, cast footsteps of the goryo and win!"
dont get hung up on just turn 3 consistency, for those who want to be really fast, such lands mess up your turn 2 consistency, despite having simian spirit guides
that would work, i dont think shivan reef is better than springs, id run some reef in addition to springs, depnding on how many blue cards you run.
There doesn't seem to be much love for the "one fell swoop" Disciple of the Vault+Walking Ballista gameplan because it takes so many slots to present lethal, but would the two-card combination of Mikaeus, the Unhallowed+Walking Ballista be a small enough package to be more viable?
Hulk-->(Double(as Hulk)+Seer)-->(Mikaeus+Ballista(s))
It is the same number of moving pieces as the Lark+Mogg finisher (so maybe testing it isn't worth the effort) but I'm pretty sure the ping-loop will require far fewer clicks in MTGO.
This is actually a pretty cool loop. I'm not sure if it is better but it reminds me of the Triskeliion kill in EDH i see with Mikeaus.
EDIT: stated something a bit incorrectly. fixed now.
As soon as I saw this archetype, I knew I had to try it. I copied Firefool's list as a start, which I've listed below.
4x Darkslick Shores
1x Geier Reach Sanitarium
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Island
1x Nephalia Drownyard
1x Swamp
4x Temple of Deceit
2x Underground River
4x Contingency Plan
4x Footsteps of the Goryo
4x Ideas Unbound
4x Serum Visions
4x Taigam's Scheming
2x Thoughtseize
1x Death Cultist
4x Protean Hulk
2x Reveillark
2x Viscera Seer
2x Makeshift Mannequin
I've yet to start goldfishing, but I have a few questions.
1) Which is the better win con -- Mogg Fanatic or Blood Cultist? Should I change this list to accommodate Mogg?
2) What should I put in my sideboard? I just don't know what this deck needs in order to improve bad matchups.
Any help is greatly appreciated!
Other considerations are that Cultist drains rather than dealing damage (it's possible that this could be relevant, but I don't know that it is), and that Mogg can effectively wipe the opponent's board while you're going off (kill their True Believer?).
None of these edge cases come up often, but the scenarios that favor Mogg come up more often, so I give it the nod.
1x Blood Crypt
2x Darkslick Shores
1x Desolate Lighthouse
1x Watery Grave
1x Swamp
2x Spirebluff Canal
1x Steam Vents
2x Scalding Tarn
4x Polluted Delta
1x Island
3x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Body Double
1x Reveillark
2x Viscera Seer
1x Mogg Fanatic
1x Makeshift Mannequin
4x Protean Hulk
1x Summoner's Pact
4x Faithless Looting
4x Serum Visions
4x Sleight of Hand
1x Cathartic Reunion
2x Collective Brutality
1x Dispel
2x Fatal Push
2x Izzet Charm
3x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1x Dispel
1x Echoing Truth
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Grave Titan
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Pithing Needle
2x Spell Pierce
1x Sudden Shock
3x Thing in the Ice
1: Sac Hulk
2: Get Seer, Body Double (Hulk)
3: Sac Double, get double (hulk)
4: Sac double, get reveillark
5: Sac reveillark, return double (hulk), double (reveillark)
6: Sac double (hulk), get whatever
7-infinite: loop whatever, body double, reveillark
This would allow for Zulaport Cutthroat as the kill card to work around leyline shenanigans. Is the concern about a body double getting stuck in hand? It seems like most of the discard outlets used to get Hulk in the yard would allow one to dump a body double at the same time.
Manic Scribe could mill people out without targeting, and Gonti, Lord of Luxury requires targeting but can mill out decks containing Eldrazi.
Also, for the heavy blue versions of the deck would Tolaria West be of interest? Tutors up Summoner's Pact, Pact of Negation, and Engineered Explosives.
I would like to use through the breach, either in addition to or instead of mannequin, to rely on the graveyard less, though that may have to be post sideboard.
Are there any lists running green? Sultai charm seems fantastic, and abrupt decay/maelstrom pulse would also be extremely good against typical hate cards.
Anyway, could anyone post a list that uses through the breach, and has a grave titan squeezed in mainboard? And a Venser side or main? Anyone else trying green?
I played a list briefly a long time ago, that ran an Obzedat. Is that still considered decent?
But, like you said, drawing a Body Double is a concern. If Double was in your opener, you can absolutely discard one along with Hulk, but if you draw her on the turn you're planning to Goryos-off you've delayed your win by a turn. The default wincon of Hulk-->(Double(as Hulk)+Seer)-->(Mogg+Lark) is preferred because it only requires one of each piece. This means you can run a very minimal Hulk target 'package' within a deck that is mostly card selection and Hulk reanimation. Running a >1cmc kill card maindeck is trading the streamlined kill and some hand redundancy away, for the ability to beat a game-1 Leyline (which is pretty edge-case).
Tolaria being 1UU to tutor seems pretty costly when there's plenty of card selection with the Looting/Cantrip/Scheming plans that most folks are running. As it is, most Bubble Hulk lists play out more like Ad Nauseam than they do BTL Scapeshift; a 3cmc tutor like Tolaria seems like it'd be more at home in a reactive BTL type shell.
I have been messing around with it a little, but think I need to rework the deck a little to really take advantage of it. Are there any other good draw->discard that might work well here? Does this maybe open us up to Thirst for Knowledge?
Edit: I've been thinking again about Gifts Ungiven. Possibly using a gifts package that looks something like Protean Hulk, Footsteps of the Goryo, Noxious Revival, and a flexible card of choice. Makeshift Mannequin would work for some redundancy, but you run the risk of being given Hulk and Revival with no way to discard. I think a better option is probably using Through the Breach, that way no matter what you get stuck with, you can combo. However, the real question is, can we wait till turn 5 to combo?
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
I came here to talk about the same. Strategic Planning saw some play in Vintage when Thirst for Knowledge got restricted. It was in Slaver lists that operated in a similar way to our deck. Get Mindslaver into the graveyard and "reanimate" with Goblin Welder. So I can see it being useful in our deck. However, we have access to 4x Thirst for Knowledge if we want. In my current build I run Thirst for Knowledge and it works well with Squee, Goblin Nabob. The only real draw back to TfK, is that it cost 2U, while Strategic Planning only cost 1U. So, I can see games where you play a turn two Strategic Planning followed up by a turn three Footsteps of the Goryo. With TfK, you're talking turn four before you can cast Footsteps.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
So, I've been brewing around the Mikaeus+Ballista angle a bit and this is what I've come up with:
3x Hangarback Walker
4x Walking Ballista
4x Viscera Seer
4x Winding Constrictor
2x Phantasmal Image
4x Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
4x Protean Hulk
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
1x Collected Company
4x Dubious Challenge
3x Hardened Scales
Lands
4x Blooming Marsh
4x Forest
4x Llanowar Wastes
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Swamp
3x Temple of Malady
The deck definitely loses the turn-3 (nutrdraw turn-2) speed that @maverickzero's deck has, but (at least for me) being able to put chumpblockers out early makes me feel like I'm faceplanting less often when my draws don't give me the combo.
The landbase is rough clay and would probably be optimized with more fetches and some way to hardcast Phantasmal Image. CoCo is a remnant of earlier brews, probably the 4th Scales or another Hangarback would be better.
Probably worse than the tried and true lists of the past, but it's been fun in my goldfish testing. Enjoy!