Wonder if we can just use Merfolk looter instead of Jace. That guy is way overpriced to be viable unless someone has gold bricks in their basement somewhere. Sure we can use his flip form, but 11 cents vs 60+ usd? When we are mostly just using it for the card draw / discard? I know this isn't the budget forum, but this is one of those rare cases where it feels like more bling than necessary.
You wouldn't use jace just for his draw/discard. The only reason hes even viable at all in the deck is because he does that and can also be great card advantage by reusing spells. He can probably work in some builds but hes not an absolute necessity. Basically if you aren't going to use Jace himself then I wouldn't have a looting creature in the deck at all. There are wayyyyyy better options available than anything like Merfolk Looter. Hes 80$ for his planeswalker side, not his creature side.
Okay guys, I actually have some time to type, so I’ll introduce myself.
Love modern, want a combo deck. I was messing around with combo Elves (which is nice, but a def glass cannon combo deck. Take out my Heritage Druid and I crumble), and Amulet Bloom (which is a VERY complicated combo in terms of how it kills). I wanted to find a combo that didn’t fail once the pieces were in place. I read an article about bubble hulk and loved the fact that all you need to do is dump Hulk in the yard, reanimate it and have it die (which Makeshift Mannequin and Footsteps of the Goryo accomplish nicely). There’s no fizzling with the deck, as long as you can sequence the triggers correctly. So, I was hooked.
That being said, I feel like there’s been nothing but bashing on this thread so far. “The deck isn’t good because of …,” and “The deck will never be tier 1 because of …” First of all, combo decks relying on the GY are NEVER gonna hold tier 1-2 status. It’s too easy to hate out! I am a long time Dredge player in Legacy. I’ve come to terms with the fact that Dredge will always be the boogie man of the format. When the format is unprepared for a GY based combo deck, it dominates. When they are prepared, it fails miserably. That’s just the nature of a GY based combo deck. There’s too many good hate cards for it to be successful. Like someone posted earlier, as soon as the deck becomes popular, all people have to do is add Surgical Extractions to the SB and we’re pretty much toast. Extirpates, Rest in Peace, Relic of Progenitus… We have to accept the fact that this isn’t the deck to take to EVERY event. This is the deck to build, practice, and keep in the back pocket for when the format changes and people are unprepared for the GY combo. So, I wouldn’t sweat the idea that we’ll never be tier 1 or 2. That’s fine with me. I like having the Boogie Man deck.
As for bashing the current lists, I don’t mean it’s all negative comments, but I haven’t seen anyone post anything besides ‘what can be added to make it better,’ to the point where some suggestions are basically saying to take everything out of the deck except for Hulk, Footsteps, and the other combo creatures. That’s a little harsh, especially when the two guys who brought the decklist back to the limelight have been testing this deck since its Post-Flash inception. I do think minor changes are necessary to make things more consistent, but revamping the entire thing seems a little disrespectful to the guys who’ve been testing this deck for years.
I see our biggest problem is finding a Hulk. I’ll wrap spoiler tags on this so quick readers don’t get bogged down by my ramblings.
Now, some people suggested using Glimpse the Unthinkable as a way to get a Hulk in the yard faster. I feel that this is ONLY good with Jace, Vryn’s Prodigy. Self-milling is a great way to find a combo piece, especially if it needs to go to the GY anyway. The problem is milling away large amounts of cards needing to play certain ones from your hand. If you mill away both Footsteps and Hulk, what good is that? We’re not running Unburial Rites or Dread Return, so we can’t just mill away the Reanimation spells as well as the target. This is where Jace is great. You can flip him and allow him to play your reanimation spells from the GY. I think that the combo of Glimpse + Jace is needed to run Glimpse. I wouldn’t suggest running Glimpse without Jace to back it up.
Quick sidenote regarding Merfolk Looter: Not as good as Jace for the reason being that he flips and gets to Snapcaster Mage a spell back. Like I mentioned above, he is able to work with the self-mill cards and allows you to dump a bunch of everything into the yard, and will let you snapback a reanimate spell. Looter is good for digging through the deck, and allows you to retain reanimate spells in hand for when you dump a Hulk, but is not good with the self-milling strategy. If Looter is an option, which I am considering, I’d run it without the Glimpse / Breaking // Entering strategy. Just run him in your 75. If you’re running with the mass-dump-mill cards, I’d run Jace over Looter.
I am a fan of self-milling, but to a smaller extent. I am really intrigued at the Darkblast discussion. Dredges 3 is just enough to keep the digging going without milling away everything, and is a very useful ability on its own. Not only does it take out all X/1’s like Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique, Young Pyromancer, Grim Lavamancer, (unflipped) Delver of Secrets, Birds of Paradise, Noble Heirarch, Heritage Druid, Cursecatcher, Silvergill Adept, Master of Waves, Dark Confidant, Blighted Agent, Glistener Elf, Inkmoth Nexus, Signal Pest, Vault Skirge, and a host of other creatures that are big in the format; but technically can take out X/2 creatures when played correctly (upkeep, play it: -1/-1. Draw Step, dredge, replay: -2/-2). Take all of that versatility, and add the fact that it’s digging deeper to putting a Hulk into the yard. The only thing (going off of what I mentioned above with Glimpse), is to wait until a reanimate spell is in hand before you heavily start Dredging. It’d be the same thing as Glimpse if you don’t have a Footsteps or Mannequin in hand… You wouldn’t want to mill away your reanimation. Take ALL of that, and also include the fact that it’s a way to get Hulk to die when reanimated with Mannequin. Even if you’ve used the card already, and you have a reanimated Hulk, you can just Dredge it back to ping the Hulk, finishing the combo.
So, other than Looting and Self-Mill (which I still feel is only good in small doses, or large doses with Jace), the other option to more reliably draw into Hulk is by tutoring. Right now, Summoner’s Pact is best for this spot as it can tutor for 0 and finds you Hulk. The problem comes with the upkeep. If Pact is an option, I think it’s best combined with Through the Breach, as you don’t need to find a way to discard in addition to tutoring. I do feel there are other tutors that might be considered. For example, Dark Petition is one I’m more interested in testing. Yes, it costs 5, and yes, that’s really high for the deck. But why do you need to tutor in the first place? Because you can’t find a Hulk and need one to combo off. So what’s worse, digging and digging past turn 5 because you can’t draw a Hulk, or on turn 5, playing the tutor, finding your Hulk, and having the BBB to play Footsteps? I can really see this card being a 1-of in the deck, just as Hulk #5. The downside to DP, the same as with Pact. It’s in hand, not in the yard. You’d need some way of dumping it.
Can be used to get a Value Package if the deck evolved in that direction or post board
Puts Hulk right to the GY, not to hand. Sidesteps the ‘needing to discard’ problem
Can get you a package of Body Double, Reveillark, Viscera Seer & _________. Can be useful if your opponent Extirpated your Hulks, or if the situation calls for it to combo out the hard way, but getting all the pieces in the GY and reanimate a Body Double or Lark.
Cons:
Costs 3U compared to 0 as with Pact
So, as you can see, there are a lot of advantages of running Gifts in the 75. Maybe only as 1 or 2 copies, but if that’s the case, I’d consider that as Hulk 5-6.
I want to test Darkblast in the main, and 1 copy of Gifts main to see if it helps with finding Hulk. The next step I would consider is taking out the 3 SSG for 3 Merfolk Looter. Will slow the deck down a little, but might add more consistency to finding the combo for turns 3+. If I decide that Looter isn’t cutting it, I think I’d just up the dig count with cards like Sleight of Hand. If these changes don’t improve consistency, Then, I think I’d look into the self-mill strategy. I think Breaking // Entering is better over Glimpse, only because the -2 mills vs a whole different card (Entering) for the long game makes B//E better than Glimpse IMO.
Is anticipate a card worth trying- maybe better them sleight of hand since u can be a little more mana efficient using it at instant speed, and no risk milling a reanimator piece like other dig spells?
Just sleeved up Jace, will take it to the test tomorrow.
Though I did not test, I don't see Breaking // Entering in a build with Simian Spirit Guide. I would prefer the 20th land and cantrips (Sleight of Hands) instead of card disadvantage dig spells (Taigam's Scheming). Otherwise, stick with Glimpse the Unthinkable.
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So, as you can see, there are a lot of advantages of running Gifts in the 75. Maybe only as 1 or 2 copies, but if that’s the case, I’d consider that as Hulk 5-6.[/spoiler]
So, here’s the updated list I plan on testing:
I want to test Darkblast in the main, and 1 copy of Gifts main to see if it helps with finding Hulk. The next step I would consider is taking out the 3 SSG for 3 Merfolk Looter. Will slow the deck down a little, but might add more consistency to finding the combo for turns 3+. If I decide that Looter isn’t cutting it, I think I’d just up the dig count with cards like Sleight of Hand. If these changes don’t improve consistency, Then, I think I’d look into the self-mill strategy. I think Breaking / Entering is better over Glimpse, only because the -2 mills vs a whole different card (Entering) for the long game makes B//E better than Glimpse IMO.
-Yawg
I think that the synergy that Darkblast has with Makeshift Mannequin makes it a viable option for the deck. I also agree that Gifts Ungiven may provide the inevitability that the deck needs for finding the combo. Its a bit slower than the deck would like but it can easily bin a hulk and if you run a singleton Noxious Revival then it can even get a reanimation spell when needed. I've played with Summoner's Pact a bit and while it can be great, I think it would need a deck that plays some green to pay for the trigger if needed and maybe even a list with a permanent discard outlet. It might work decent in a breach list though.
Now on the topic of Merfolk Looter, I don't think it is a good choice at all. It would be very slow, usually get eaten by previously dead removal, is a worse version of Jace and would waste a slot that could be used for something better. Its only real upside would be that vs some decks it could be a reusable discard outlet.
Personally I think that CAW_86 list with a couple Gifts Ungiven would be the most consistent list currently. That being said I think the current most viable alternative lines of development would be more reanimation targets, or Jace in a more control oriented build, or some build that focuses even more on gifts with a decent alternate win-con to get around grave hate.
I like how Gifts, at its worst, is Hulk 5 - 6. You can just instantly put Hulk in the yard. If Revival is an option, you can gifts for the whole package, getting Footsteps of the Goryo, Faithless Looting, Noxious Revival and Protean Hulk. Worst, they give you Hulk and Looting, which still lets you pitch the Hulk and dig two deep for another Reanimation spell. After SBing is where I'm liking Gifts more and more. If you're looking to stop a hate card before comboing, you can Gifts for 3 targets that will kill the threat (eg: Scavenging Ooze in play. Gifts for Echoing Truth, Slaughter Pact and Pithing Needle. No matter what, Ooze is gone and you combo free. Need a counter, go for Noxious, Swan Song, Pact of Negation. No matter what, you get counter backup. Things like that.)
Noxious wouldn't be great in the self-Mill strat. You're more than likely to mill away the revival, so it wont' help save cards that are milled.
I"m starting to test with Gifts and Darkblast, and I'll let you all know how the additions work. For now, i'm leaving out Noxious Revival, but if the Gifting is better with one, I'd throw one in the main. I think it's a wasted spot, however, unless I find that I use Gifts for more than just tutoring for a Hulk.
-Yawg
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
From void evolved Phyrexia. Great Yawgmoth, Father of Machines, saw its perfection. Thus The Grand Evolution began. — Phyrexian Scriptures
i draw and discard him into the gy like any other creature. If I have no hulk for combo I just use footseps or mannequin to get him on to the field.
looking at Marcc777's comments. woodfall primus is looking to be more and more the better way to go than using ashen rider
the thing that would haunt me is the creature situations that could come up and you'd want the exile trigger of rider over primus's non-creature trigger. However ridding a 5/5 beat stick to victory is more than likely probably in this meta. after all that is what Grixis delver does. only difference being is we hope to do that with primus after primus has eaten two lands which will more than likely be the two colors our opponent would have needed for answering primus, so bit of a favorable gamble.
I maintain my position that you need an extra threat such as rider or primus in this deck, as it can be difficult at time to dig up 4 (hulk) out of 60 sometimes. your deck really has to be really giving you bad draws if you are not drawing into 1 of 8 our of 60.
Tested a few today, Jace is really great! Favourite plays of the day:
1. Turn 1 Thoughtseize, Turn 2 Jace
2. Footsteps Lark for Jace + Body Double, copying Lark
Is Darkblast good? If so, I may cut the Lightning Axe for it. (Though deck becomes weaker vs Scavenging Ooze).
So I think I've worked out a decent list in the Woodfall Primus line. I decided to try dropping serum visions as it does not get anything into the graveyard and also has no interaction. This list try's to go deeper into the reanimation strategy while still having a decent amount of alternate win conditions and a bit more interaction.
Because the deck has multiple win-cons (Combo, Primus, Thragtusk, Angler, Ætherling) cards like Surgical Extraction, Scavenging Ooze and Relic of Progenitus become much less of a problem and don't just shut the deck down without a proper answer. The only kinds of cards that are still a fairly large problem are permanent grave hate like Rest in Peace, Wheel of Sun and Moon and Leyline of the Void. Splashing green provides great outs to these cards via Nature's Claim and Abrupt Decay. Gnaw to the Bone can be helpful in the burn and zoo matchups. Decay comes in vs boggles/infect/twin and anywhere else that more spot removal is needed. Aetherling comes in vs Tron and Control decks and can be brought in early via a footsteps or a makeshift. Angler can be play very early with all of the fetch lands and dig spells and gets past a relic standstill. Boseiju and Swan Song are pretty self explanatory and venser is for getting past Leylines.
So in testing ashen rider vs woodfall primus- i like rider better
exiling a creature is super relevant. I have been running 1 rider, with three mannequins so keep it on the field for the win if needed.
It really depends on the turn that you use it. Rider will sometimes be better in the late game but if you can blow up 2 lands on turn 3 and on top of that get a 5/5 body for blocking/beating down then primus is way better. Rider can only stay on the field with a makeshift where primus will survive both reanimation spells and if copied via a body double then it can take a removal (other than path) to the face and keep on trucking.
griselbrand draws you a lot of cards while on the board. without hate he isn't very effective!
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on another note, I ran into a match up where someone got wise and pithing needle my viscera seer is there an alternative sacrifice creature or outlet we can use?
Got more creatures with benefits, that I didn't list?
copy paste and add them to the list.
theres a lot of creatures out there with etb and die triggers, I'm sure i missed ones that would play well with this reanimators type of reanimate spells.
You wouldn't use jace just for his draw/discard. The only reason hes even viable at all in the deck is because he does that and can also be great card advantage by reusing spells. He can probably work in some builds but hes not an absolute necessity. Basically if you aren't going to use Jace himself then I wouldn't have a looting creature in the deck at all. There are wayyyyyy better options available than anything like Merfolk Looter. Hes 80$ for his planeswalker side, not his creature side.
That being said, I feel like there’s been nothing but bashing on this thread so far. “The deck isn’t good because of …,” and “The deck will never be tier 1 because of …” First of all, combo decks relying on the GY are NEVER gonna hold tier 1-2 status. It’s too easy to hate out! I am a long time Dredge player in Legacy. I’ve come to terms with the fact that Dredge will always be the boogie man of the format. When the format is unprepared for a GY based combo deck, it dominates. When they are prepared, it fails miserably. That’s just the nature of a GY based combo deck. There’s too many good hate cards for it to be successful. Like someone posted earlier, as soon as the deck becomes popular, all people have to do is add Surgical Extractions to the SB and we’re pretty much toast. Extirpates, Rest in Peace, Relic of Progenitus… We have to accept the fact that this isn’t the deck to take to EVERY event. This is the deck to build, practice, and keep in the back pocket for when the format changes and people are unprepared for the GY combo. So, I wouldn’t sweat the idea that we’ll never be tier 1 or 2. That’s fine with me. I like having the Boogie Man deck.
As for bashing the current lists, I don’t mean it’s all negative comments, but I haven’t seen anyone post anything besides ‘what can be added to make it better,’ to the point where some suggestions are basically saying to take everything out of the deck except for Hulk, Footsteps, and the other combo creatures. That’s a little harsh, especially when the two guys who brought the decklist back to the limelight have been testing this deck since its Post-Flash inception. I do think minor changes are necessary to make things more consistent, but revamping the entire thing seems a little disrespectful to the guys who’ve been testing this deck for years.
I see our biggest problem is finding a Hulk. I’ll wrap spoiler tags on this so quick readers don’t get bogged down by my ramblings.
Quick sidenote regarding Merfolk Looter: Not as good as Jace for the reason being that he flips and gets to Snapcaster Mage a spell back. Like I mentioned above, he is able to work with the self-mill cards and allows you to dump a bunch of everything into the yard, and will let you snapback a reanimate spell. Looter is good for digging through the deck, and allows you to retain reanimate spells in hand for when you dump a Hulk, but is not good with the self-milling strategy. If Looter is an option, which I am considering, I’d run it without the Glimpse / Breaking // Entering strategy. Just run him in your 75. If you’re running with the mass-dump-mill cards, I’d run Jace over Looter.
I am a fan of self-milling, but to a smaller extent. I am really intrigued at the Darkblast discussion. Dredges 3 is just enough to keep the digging going without milling away everything, and is a very useful ability on its own. Not only does it take out all X/1’s like Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique, Young Pyromancer, Grim Lavamancer, (unflipped) Delver of Secrets, Birds of Paradise, Noble Heirarch, Heritage Druid, Cursecatcher, Silvergill Adept, Master of Waves, Dark Confidant, Blighted Agent, Glistener Elf, Inkmoth Nexus, Signal Pest, Vault Skirge, and a host of other creatures that are big in the format; but technically can take out X/2 creatures when played correctly (upkeep, play it: -1/-1. Draw Step, dredge, replay: -2/-2). Take all of that versatility, and add the fact that it’s digging deeper to putting a Hulk into the yard. The only thing (going off of what I mentioned above with Glimpse), is to wait until a reanimate spell is in hand before you heavily start Dredging. It’d be the same thing as Glimpse if you don’t have a Footsteps or Mannequin in hand… You wouldn’t want to mill away your reanimation. Take ALL of that, and also include the fact that it’s a way to get Hulk to die when reanimated with Mannequin. Even if you’ve used the card already, and you have a reanimated Hulk, you can just Dredge it back to ping the Hulk, finishing the combo.
So, other than Looting and Self-Mill (which I still feel is only good in small doses, or large doses with Jace), the other option to more reliably draw into Hulk is by tutoring. Right now, Summoner’s Pact is best for this spot as it can tutor for 0 and finds you Hulk. The problem comes with the upkeep. If Pact is an option, I think it’s best combined with Through the Breach, as you don’t need to find a way to discard in addition to tutoring. I do feel there are other tutors that might be considered. For example, Dark Petition is one I’m more interested in testing. Yes, it costs 5, and yes, that’s really high for the deck. But why do you need to tutor in the first place? Because you can’t find a Hulk and need one to combo off. So what’s worse, digging and digging past turn 5 because you can’t draw a Hulk, or on turn 5, playing the tutor, finding your Hulk, and having the BBB to play Footsteps? I can really see this card being a 1-of in the deck, just as Hulk #5. The downside to DP, the same as with Pact. It’s in hand, not in the yard. You’d need some way of dumping it.
I think that the key is Gifts Ungiven.
Pros:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
Creatures 15
4 Protean Hulk
2 Reveillark
2 Body Double
3 Viscera Seer
1 Mogg Fanatic
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Footsteps of the Goryo
2 Makeshift Mannequin
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Faithless Looting
4 Serum Visions
3 Izzet Charm
3 Pact of Negation
2 Darkblast
1 Lightning Axe
2 Taigam’s Scheming
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Swan Song
2 Pithing Needle
1 Darkblast
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Grave Titan
1 Pyroclasm
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Echoing Truth
I want to test Darkblast in the main, and 1 copy of Gifts main to see if it helps with finding Hulk. The next step I would consider is taking out the 3 SSG for 3 Merfolk Looter. Will slow the deck down a little, but might add more consistency to finding the combo for turns 3+. If I decide that Looter isn’t cutting it, I think I’d just up the dig count with cards like Sleight of Hand. If these changes don’t improve consistency, Then, I think I’d look into the self-mill strategy. I think Breaking // Entering is better over Glimpse, only because the -2 mills vs a whole different card (Entering) for the long game makes B//E better than Glimpse IMO.
-Yawg
Though I did not test, I don't see Breaking // Entering in a build with Simian Spirit Guide. I would prefer the 20th land and cantrips (Sleight of Hands) instead of card disadvantage dig spells (Taigam's Scheming). Otherwise, stick with Glimpse the Unthinkable.
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I think that the synergy that Darkblast has with Makeshift Mannequin makes it a viable option for the deck. I also agree that Gifts Ungiven may provide the inevitability that the deck needs for finding the combo. Its a bit slower than the deck would like but it can easily bin a hulk and if you run a singleton Noxious Revival then it can even get a reanimation spell when needed. I've played with Summoner's Pact a bit and while it can be great, I think it would need a deck that plays some green to pay for the trigger if needed and maybe even a list with a permanent discard outlet. It might work decent in a breach list though.
Now on the topic of Merfolk Looter, I don't think it is a good choice at all. It would be very slow, usually get eaten by previously dead removal, is a worse version of Jace and would waste a slot that could be used for something better. Its only real upside would be that vs some decks it could be a reusable discard outlet.
Personally I think that CAW_86 list with a couple Gifts Ungiven would be the most consistent list currently. That being said I think the current most viable alternative lines of development would be more reanimation targets, or Jace in a more control oriented build, or some build that focuses even more on gifts with a decent alternate win-con to get around grave hate.
Baby Jace seems like a better option. Although if people go with a Gifts plan, Revival can be good for piles.
Noxious wouldn't be great in the self-Mill strat. You're more than likely to mill away the revival, so it wont' help save cards that are milled.
I"m starting to test with Gifts and Darkblast, and I'll let you all know how the additions work. For now, i'm leaving out Noxious Revival, but if the Gifting is better with one, I'd throw one in the main. I think it's a wasted spot, however, unless I find that I use Gifts for more than just tutoring for a Hulk.
-Yawg
sorry i missed this earlier.
ashen rider
i draw and discard him into the gy like any other creature. If I have no hulk for combo I just use footseps or mannequin to get him on to the field.
looking at Marcc777's comments. woodfall primus is looking to be more and more the better way to go than using ashen rider
the thing that would haunt me is the creature situations that could come up and you'd want the exile trigger of rider over primus's non-creature trigger. However ridding a 5/5 beat stick to victory is more than likely probably in this meta. after all that is what Grixis delver does. only difference being is we hope to do that with primus after primus has eaten two lands which will more than likely be the two colors our opponent would have needed for answering primus, so bit of a favorable gamble.
I maintain my position that you need an extra threat such as rider or primus in this deck, as it can be difficult at time to dig up 4 (hulk) out of 60 sometimes. your deck really has to be really giving you bad draws if you are not drawing into 1 of 8 our of 60.
Darkblast was great when I was just digging for a hulk. Felt like a dead card when I was looking for reanimation.
Gifts felt a little awkward, mostly due to my minimal experience with gift.
The best synergy with darkblast was targeting a mannequin'd hulk.
1. Turn 1 Thoughtseize, Turn 2 Jace
2. Footsteps Lark for Jace + Body Double, copying Lark
Is Darkblast good? If so, I may cut the Lightning Axe for it. (Though deck becomes weaker vs Scavenging Ooze).
Currently:
4 Protean Hulk
2 Reveillark
2 Body Double
1 Mogg Fanatic
3 Viscera Seer
4 Serum Visions
1 Sleight of Hand
4 Thoughtseize
4 Faithless Looting
1 Lightning Axe
3 Izzet Charm
4 Footsteps of the Goryo
2 Makeshift Mannequin
2 Pact of Negation
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroclasm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Hibernation
1 Echoing Truth
1 Pact of Negation
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Murderous Cut
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
exiling a creature is super relevant. I have been running 1 rider, with three mannequins so keep it on the field for the win if needed.
How does this list beat leyline??
I guess Ratchet? But that takes forever.
4 Protean Hulk
3 Woodfall Primus
3 Body Double
3 Viscera Seer
2 Thragtusk
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Reveillark
Interaction/Dig(18):
3 Slaughter Pact
1 Darkblast
2 Pact of Negation
4 Izzet Charm
4 Faithless Looting
4 Taigam's Scheming
4 Footsteps of the Goryo
3 Makeshift Mannequin
Land(18):
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Breeding Pool
1 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Ætherling
2 Spellskite
1 Swan Song
2 Nature's Claim
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Gnaw to the Bone
3 Gurmag Angler
Because the deck has multiple win-cons (Combo, Primus, Thragtusk, Angler, Ætherling) cards like Surgical Extraction, Scavenging Ooze and Relic of Progenitus become much less of a problem and don't just shut the deck down without a proper answer. The only kinds of cards that are still a fairly large problem are permanent grave hate like Rest in Peace, Wheel of Sun and Moon and Leyline of the Void. Splashing green provides great outs to these cards via Nature's Claim and Abrupt Decay. Gnaw to the Bone can be helpful in the burn and zoo matchups. Decay comes in vs boggles/infect/twin and anywhere else that more spot removal is needed. Aetherling comes in vs Tron and Control decks and can be brought in early via a footsteps or a makeshift. Angler can be play very early with all of the fetch lands and dig spells and gets past a relic standstill. Boseiju and Swan Song are pretty self explanatory and venser is for getting past Leylines.
It really depends on the turn that you use it. Rider will sometimes be better in the late game but if you can blow up 2 lands on turn 3 and on top of that get a 5/5 body for blocking/beating down then primus is way better. Rider can only stay on the field with a makeshift where primus will survive both reanimation spells and if copied via a body double then it can take a removal (other than path) to the face and keep on trucking.
You use the 2 body double loop to get a venser during the combo to bounce it.
list so far is.
protean hulk combo enabler
ashen rider exiles things on the ETB and Die trigger
woodfall primus destroys noncreature permanents with 2 ETB and persist gives us a permanent 5/5 with trample
wurmcoil engine only benefit is the die trigger which nets us 2 3/3 wurmcoil tokens.
thragtusk etb gives 5 life. Die/leave trigger leaves us a 3/3 body.
child of alara die trigger wipes the board.
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite here static effects can wipe a board. doesn't do much else.
griselbrand draws you a lot of cards while on the board. without hate he isn't very effective!
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on another note, I ran into a match up where someone got wise and pithing needle my viscera seer is there an alternative sacrifice creature or outlet we can use?
Got more creatures with benefits, that I didn't list?
copy paste and add them to the list.
theres a lot of creatures out there with etb and die triggers, I'm sure i missed ones that would play well with this reanimators type of reanimate spells.
I do like the no serum visions build listed above
Visions helps keep the marginal hands for sure but this deck is fine aggressively mulliganing