MTG Salvation

Quote from tarotplz »

Back when Call to the Feast first came out I compared it to Sram's Expertise. Both give us 3 1/1 tokens, both come with an additional upside. One being lifelink the other being a freecast.

Freecasts are one of the most valuable things you can get in this game, but still nobody touches Sram's.

I guess you could make the argument that lifelink helps vs aggressive decks, but so does the tempo gain from playing a free removal spell.

In the end I´d argue that Spectral Procession is much better than both of these cards, it is potenitally a mana cheaper and gives a arguably better keyword in flying.

In the end I agree. Sram's upside is very conditional and gaining life is not how you win. Flying isn't either but evasion helps with the killing and the killing is how one wins. That's why Spectral Procession and Lingering Souls are core cards for the archtype.

There's nothing wrong with testing other cards and talking about them if one has the time and the energy. Nothing at all, but neither of those other two cards mentioned above appeal enough to me for me to give them a try.

i think the key takeaway here is that at 4 cmc we demand more from our cards. Making 3 non-flying tokens, even with lifelink (which incidentally wastes Sorin's +1) is simply not enough. Not when that amount of mana will get you a planeswalker that can almost carry the game or turn an aggro match around.

Hi guys. After some playtesting (by myself, so probably not the best), I can drew my conclusions on call to the feast:

- I never worried about getting shocks and getting basics makes our life much higher, which is complemented by the lifegain of the tokens.
- The lifegain was good but not great. Flying is so powerful.
- Felt the same as when I play spectral: compared to our other token producers it feels "risky" to use 100% of the utility of the card, but now using 4 mana instead. Nothing better than landing a BB or playing Lingering souls and make a mental note: "Remember you can flash it back"
- I didn't feel as much as I thought the absence of the 3rd Sorin, Solemn Visitor. I like having PW diversity so I think I will be keeping him for a while.

After these thoughts, I decided to go back to spectral but to 2 copies (instead of 3 as before). The 3rd slot will be taken by Sorin, Lord of Innistrad to configure the most PW-based version I have ever tried. I will be testing in a (relatively-) competitive env this friday. This is the list I intend to use:



Going back to 13 token generators is something I always wanted to do, and I think with the inclusion of the 2 new PW (which are also pseudo anthems and a clock in the case of Gids) makes the deck really round. I will let you know how it runs Any feedback prior to the FNM?

not good enough

check the discussions on previous pages for "loquacity"

Bitterblossom is more like a anti-board-wipe / inevitability engine. I always side it out against aggressive match-ups that depend on my life total going to zero in the first three to four turns and side it in against decks that want to clean house a lot such as control. Recently I've been swapping in Anointer Priest against burn since they either have to burn it with a bolt (and it comes back anyway), or have to let it stay on the board and try to just out burn the life gain. It also chump blocks Goblin guide all day.

Also, Bitterblossom is probably over-rated. The best card to be printed for tokens recently isn't even a tokens card. Smuggler's Copter gives the deck a way to filter cards out and get to what you need faster while also being a legitimate threat. And unlike most decks there is basically zero chance of it just sitting around in the parking lot without a driver. Well, that and Selfless Spirit.

I would strongly disagree with that. smuggler's copter goes completely against the concept of intangible virtue, so if you play one, the other should be the replacement. IMO, I dont see the copter beating the virtue.

Selfless spirit, on the other hand is a card just meant against sweepers in our deck. I have found that dedicating 1-2 spots of the SB to this card is not worth it, since we can obtain the same effect by playing intelligently and using our discard: BB also does a great job here, as well as lingering souls and our token-producing PW. I see the utility, but I would much rather use the SB spots for something else, like auriok champion which is definitively better than Anointer Priest.

Where it comes to "endless stream of tokens" I've found BB's stock to be steadily decreasing -

Legion's Landing is trivially easy to flip in RtA builds. Opponents struggling to prevent the flip end up spending resources killing early tokens, and if they can't, well we get ramped and our long game is pretty much set.

Gideon Ally is just much stronger. Double the cost, yes, but the benefits outweight it by a huge margin.

The only remaining saving grace for BB that I see is the flying. And yet that lifeloss seems to offset it. Counting on Sorin to take back that lifeloss is a risky proposition to me.

One interesting little nugget that I've always thought about but never tried was Captain's Claws. T1 legion's, T2 RtA, T3 Cap's claws and equip, swing and flip landing. There's a card that will help with comebacks too, without the lifeloss.

Captain's Claws kind of turns on removal for our opponents; they can just kill the equipped token at the beginning of combat, and you a) don't get a token, and b) have to re-equip next turn. Also, the Kor Ally token is always attacking, and doesn't have flying.
As for the lifeloss, the amount of life lost is greatly outweighed by the creation of a token every turn. It negates mass removal, it quickly swarms the board, and it can block a Goyf or a Shadow forever.
Especially when you play against decks like Junk, Jund or UW(r) control, Bitterblossom is one of the, if not the, strongest card against them.
And when it comes to negating life loss, most builds play 2/3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor, 1 Vault of the Archangel, and 3 Shambling Vent, and some people play 1/2 Collective Brutality, so you will most likely see some lifegain in every match.

BB is a card I underrated myself for long. Now I couldn't see my deck working without it. You just land it t2 and then start using all the disruption our deck generates, not worrying about the tokens because they are being generated automatically, at a very fair price.

I only side it out against burn, basically. Against aggro creature based deks, it still shines, trading, chumping and letting us flood the board while playing removal and additional tokens.

Quote from MarcWizard »

Where it comes to "endless stream of tokens" I've found BB's stock to be steadily decreasing -

Legion's Landing is trivially easy to flip in RtA builds. Opponents struggling to prevent the flip end up spending resources killing early tokens, and if they can't, well we get ramped and our long game is pretty much set.

Gideon Ally is just much stronger. Double the cost, yes, but the benefits outweight it by a huge margin.

The only remaining saving grace for BB that I see is the flying. And yet that lifeloss seems to offset it. Counting on Sorin to take back that lifeloss is a risky proposition to me.

One interesting little nugget that I've always thought about but never tried was Captain's Claws. T1 legion's, T2 RtA, T3 Cap's claws and equip, swing and flip landing. There's a card that will help with comebacks too, without the lifeloss.

Legion's Landing is my favorite new pet card of Ixalan, actually. Who knew that putting lifelink on otherwise unimpressive 1/1 vampire tokens would actually be good? I've actually started going more mono-white and just lightly splashing for black for Lingering Souls. Also, as far as the arms race is concerned between planeswalkers, I think Gideon, Ally of Zendikar probably edges out Sorin, Lord of Innistrad. I know online I was also able to get enough ramp through Adanto, the First Fort and Path to Exile to hit Elspeth, Sun's Champion in a few games. That definitely did not feel like the route I wanted to go, but she is definitely a house.

The only thing that I'm surprised by is getting out-raced by my friend who runs a Selesnia tokens build. It's some kind of stompy token build that goes wide and uses Muraganda Petroglyphs. The only problem with his deck is that he has to rely on Birds of Paradise and Noble Heirarch to boost into some of the plays. Also, as it turns out a bunch of angry 1/1 townsfolk buffed by a Gideon, Ally of Zendikar emblem, Muraganda Petroglyphs, and backed by a 9/9 flying angry demon is somewhat frightening. Ugh, I do want to try Westvale Abbey, but that really feels like it's only good in some rather narrow situations.

Has anyone ever played with Ensnaring Bridge in the side-board? It should generally be easy enough to manage one's hand to allow 1/1 or even 2/2 tokens to attack but prevent the fatties from cracking-back.

I haven't tried it here but I have used it in Affinity with some success. It's actually better there due to 0/X creatures and instant-speed equipment attachment but it might still work here.

Normally one would rely on chump-blockers and number and Bridge would not seem useful, but a bigger token deck or creatures with Trample are trouble.

Bridge probably is not a good idea in a general environment but I can see it being very handy in FNM.

Quote from diateone »

I would strongly disagree with that. smuggler's copter goes completely against the concept of intangible virtue, so if you play one, the other should be the replacement. IMO, I dont see the copter beating the virtue.

Selfless spirit, on the other hand is a card just meant against sweepers in our deck. I have found that dedicating 1-2 spots of the SB to this card is not worth it, since we can obtain the same effect by playing intelligently and using our discard: BB also does a great job here, as well as lingering souls and our token-producing PW. I see the utility, but I would much rather use the SB spots for something else, like auriok champion which is definitively better than Anointer Priest.

I can second everything diateone has said here. My experience echoes all of these points. I don't think that Smuggler's Copter or Selfless Spirit have a place in an optimized version of BW Tokens in the current meta.

Quote from pzbw7z »

Has anyone ever played with Ensnaring Bridge in the side-board? It should generally be easy enough to manage one's hand to allow 1/1 or even 2/2 tokens to attack but prevent the fatties from cracking-back.

I haven't tried it here but I have used it in Affinity with some success. It's actually better there due to 0/X creatures and instant-speed equipment attachment but it might still work here.

Normally one would rely on chump-blockers and number and Bridge would not seem useful, but a bigger token deck or creatures with Trample are trouble.

Bridge probably is not a good idea in a general environment but I can see it being very handy in FNM.

It's fantastic against aggro, with the exception of burn, and is actually a good way to stop Eldrazies from smashing your reality. If Eldrazi, aggro and creature/combat based deck are a big part of your meta, ensnaring bridge can do you a lot of good.

However, it's next to useless against non-Emrakul combo and control in general.

Quote from methupmyass »

Lots of great info here. I'm addicted to this thread now. Makes me want to try out a list of my own - I'll just have to decide between the midrange vs control package, I suppose. The midrange-ish build seems to be more budget friendly, while lists running Liliana of the Veil seems slightly more competitive (I'm just guessing here).

Orzhov is looking really good right now because of the breadth of strategies available with the pair and the reprinting of a lot of older cards that support them. Not to mention we got Legion's Landing that a lot of people are not really seeing the forest vs the trees with yet. I'd say Soul Sisters and BW Tokens got the most love with the new standard sets and this iconic masters reprinting.

Also, some notes on Legion's Landing and Adanto, the First Fort. The card gives tokens a lot more freedom to play otherwise tempo disrupting utility lands, as when it flips it becomes a plains with upside. I've found myself comboing it with Windbrisk Heights to get free plays in this deck, comboing into good 4 and even 5 drop targets like Sorin, Solemn Visitor, Elspeth Tirel, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, and at worse another Spectral Procession or dusk // dawn if playing against Jund or other big value creature strategies.

I should probably link my list up at some point here. I just haven't gotten around to actually imputing the list onto a website yet.

Quote from methupmyass »

Lots of great info here. I'm addicted to this thread now. Makes me want to try out a list of my own - I'll just have to decide between the midrange vs control package, I suppose. The midrange-ish build seems to be more budget friendly, while lists running Liliana of the Veil seems slightly more competitive (I'm just guessing here).

Some folks like Lili but I don't. Actually, I like Lili a great deal but I don't like her in BW tokens. BB just isn't what I want to be doing and it can be difficult to do on curve or at least painful to do.

I would want two Swamps in a list with Lili and two Swamps are just bad in a list that wants WWW on turn three or four. If one doesn't play Spectral Procession, the mana-base can be fudged to support Lili, but who the hell isn't going to play Spectral Procession in BW tokens?

Yes, I know I just invited the flames with that last bit. Eh, c'est le vie.

The real decision is to Bitterblossom or not to Bitterblossom. Bitterblosson seems to be the preference these days but it is not consensus.

Quote from pzbw7z »

Quote from methupmyass »

Lots of great info here. I'm addicted to this thread now. Makes me want to try out a list of my own - I'll just have to decide between the midrange vs control package, I suppose. The midrange-ish build seems to be more budget friendly, while lists running Liliana of the Veil seems slightly more competitive (I'm just guessing here).

BB... can be difficult to do on curve or at least painful to do.

I would want two Swamps in a list with Lili and two Swamps are just bad in a list that wants WWW on turn three or four. If one doesn't play Spectral Procession, the mana-base can be fudged to support Lili, but who the hell isn't going to play Spectral Procession in BW tokens?

I run two Swamp, two Liliana of the Veil, and three Spectral Procession and very rarely encounter mana issues. I tend not to take that much damage from my land either. Most of the time I am fetching for basics. It's all about land base optimization. Here's mine for reference:

Quote from ChainVeil »

Quote from pzbw7z »

Quote from methupmyass »

Lots of great info here. I'm addicted to this thread now. Makes me want to try out a list of my own - I'll just have to decide between the midrange vs control package, I suppose. The midrange-ish build seems to be more budget friendly, while lists running Liliana of the Veil seems slightly more competitive (I'm just guessing here).

BB... can be difficult to do on curve or at least painful to do.

I would want two Swamps in a list with Lili and two Swamps are just bad in a list that wants WWW on turn three or four. If one doesn't play Spectral Procession, the mana-base can be fudged to support Lili, but who the hell isn't going to play Spectral Procession in BW tokens?

I run two Swamp, two Liliana of the Veil, and three Spectral Procession and very rarely encounter mana issues. I tend not to take that much damage from my land either. Most of the time I am fetching for basics. It's all about land base optimization. Here's mine for reference:

Colt47's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Land (24) 4x Concealed Courtyard 1x Fetid Heath 1x Ghost Quarter 2x Godless Shrine 4x Marsh Flats 2x Plains 2x Polluted Delta 1x Shambling Vent 2x Swamp 2x Vault of the Archangel 3x Windswept Heath

Your mana-base also illustrates the importance of identifying how dedicated on the balance board one is going towards white or black in these decks. If someone goes more towards black (runs Bitterblossom, liliana of the veil, etc) then the fetchland mix needs more fetches that get swamps. If it bends more towards white then the best idea is to go for as many fetches that grab white sources like plains.

Quote from methupmyass »

The opinion on running LotV seems very divided. Some say she's not worth it, others that they can't play tokens without her. I'll probably spend my money on cards that feel more important (I don't own a LotV).

I had pretty much decided on running Raise the Alarm and not Bitterblossom, but now, as part of a Black Friday weekend sale, a game store near me sells near mint Bitterblossom for the equivalent of $25...

I own both cards and don't main deck Bitterblossom anymore. It's not a bad card, but the problem is that it's geared to help fight decks like the original Mid-range Jund. Intruder Alarm is more explosive and can be used out of no where. Also, I've really moved away from hand disruption tactics in my build due to my meta. Lots of do-it-your-selfers in my area that build janky brews and many of them like cards such as Loxodon Smiter, Obstinate Baloth, etc. The really bad ones are the two players running Rampaging Ferocidon, Harsh mentor and Eidolon of the Great Revel. If people were wondering why I was running Anointer Priest, this is a meta where players are using Spatial Contortion and Kozilek's Return. Basically the pro-red does nothing against colorless, unfortunately. With the priest I can at least embalm so it comes back if it dies to one of those spells. It also blocks most of his early plays so it is a decent foil.

I main deck anointer priest against Colorless red attrition since it survives longer and can come back late game. Also, interesting note is that it triggers itself when returning to the field, so don't forget that interaction. That's why people run Anointer Priest with Anointed Procession in standard at the moment. Against the selesnya stompy lists I'm just running more strait removal. I'm using Deathmark right now since it is more reliable against humans and GW stompy builds than Fatal Push and you don't have to hold up a fetch to make sure it gets revolt. Also running 1x Anguished Unmaking and 1x go for the throat.