I never cared about Leyline anyway. That card is masively overplayed and frequently ineffective against combo like ours. Sadly, Archer doesn't really improve deck weak spots. It doesn't draw cards, so it doesn't replace an engine. It's still a fragile creature, so it doesn't improve resilience. It's basically a creature Grapeshot, except you need to replay all your spells once you are ready to Archer. I'm just not seeing it.
3 MB Noxious have been really solid for me, with one SB. It just improves your combo resiliency and engine resiliency too much not to play 4 in the 75. Claim to fame looks pretty neat as well, and if you are splashing black you can always add discard for added protection. It also allows contraband KP, who is wonderful. Another stand-in for leyline is judge's familiar for those times you are on the play in G2 or G3.
Replacing Leylines is typically about what you expect to see. If you expect a lot of traditional BG/x and/or UW/x decks, you want 4 Paradoxical Outcome. If you expect a lot of DS Jund, pack the 3 remaining Grapeshots in the sideboard. This also works somewhat for tokens, manadorks, and sometimes Burn (to kill Eidolons or buy time by taking out threats), so you can also consider it if you think those strategies will be around. If you think there will be a lot of Ad Nauseam, Tron, CoCo, Infect, Affinity, etc etc then just slide in 4 generic useful cards (like Outcomes, or Silence if you don't already have it) and kill them without worrying about sideboards because they're way too slow for you.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
The main advantage of Leave is in allowing us to play WR with SSG instead of UW. You can even ditch cantrips for something like Looting. I don't actually know if that's better than what we are doing now, but it is an option Leave opens up more than Retract alone. At W instead of 1W it would have been busted.
With my work schedule I haven't been able to play a lot of Modern, but I've been playing Lantern Control again with long matches full of headaches and mixed results. There's a Modern PPTQ near me this weekend and Leave has me tempted to run the Rugged Prairie / SSG build with it. I bought a box of HoD and have 3 Leave in hand after trading. Rather than abandoning blue, I'm just thinking of adding a couple Leave so I have six Retract effects in the deck. Being an Instant, it's sort of like a combination of a Hurkle's Recall and Repeal that only target you, quite limited but a useful combination, and Chance is like an emergency button (if only that was instant speed as well). Having said that I'm not sure if a 4 Retract/2 Leave split is better or 3/3. I'm skeptical so I'll try 4/2 at FNM and report back.
Why so many Grapeshot against DS Jund? Against Discard? With Noxious Revival i can get back my grapeshots. I already have 2 Silence in SB
Because often the way the Death's Shadow matchups play out you have to kill things to live another turn so when trying to combo off your fallback position is often to Grapeshot to hit the opponent's board and live another turn. This can happen in succession for multiple turns if your opponent is slow-rolling threats.
Also another question: when do you board echoing truth in? i almost never have the desire to do so
Against Burn, if they drop a second Eidolon it's usually GG unless you have an answer, and Echoing Truth is a great one. Decks that run Chalice of the Void can also crush your soul if you're playing without an answer in your 75.
What do you guys think of Abrade?, seems like a good card for the maindeck since it can be cast End of Opponents turn to destroy Chalice of the Void while also giving us something to interact against decks with creatures.
I know its red but some of us already play that color
I ended up having my kids unexpectedly overnight Friday so I didn't attend FNM or the Modern PPTQ. However I did get to playtest a Rugged Prairie & Simian Spirit Guide list with Leave/Chance and I was pleasantly surprised as the new card won me the second game I played. I cast Leave on my opponents end step to pick up six Equipments with a Sram in play and after I untapped and drew yet another land hit Mox x2, land x3 & Bone Saw off the Sram triggers, dropped the Bone Saw and hit Noxious Revival. Then I cast Chance discarding 4 lands and hit a Retract and won the game on the spot. My opponent (Counters Company) played a Collected Company during that turn but could't survive.
Game 1 I made it almost halfway into my deck without hitting Retract effect. My playtesting partner laughed and pointed out that Muddle the Mixture could get an engine or a Leave and thus belongs in my Jeskai build. I'm considering a 3/3 split between Retract & Leave though, as I was quite impressed with it.
He also had Grixis Shadow, but we had limited time and honestly I just wasn't up for that level of punishment. Lol..
I have seen this deck kind of fall off the radar, and not sure if the primer is the most updated list. would someone post the most recent build they are testing? I also was thining of adding 2 Leave // chance
Leave // chance looks like it does a lot more things than Hurkyl's Recall. especially the "permanent" part as well as the second half of the spell seem as if it can solve a lot of problems the deck has (e.g. drawing too many blanks/lands).
Leave being white also might be able to open the deck up to a build without blue. I don't really see it coming as we profit from blue in form of counters and cantrips, but hey.
Leave would have been a staple if it only had costed W A man can dream...
Leave gets back gemstone mine as well. This may be a 2 of that gives us a real positive shift in kill rates before turn 4, and resilience after turn 6. Time to start crunching with the SSG build again.
I don't have a list that is good enough to share yet, but Leave//chance is impressive, albeit Chance is a highly volatile emergency button. It synergizes very well with Noxious Revival in that you can discard Grapeshot or Retract while digging for an Engine and get the thing you need back. Having said that I lost a game in playtesting yesterday that I actually didn't miss a land drop and cast Chance 3 times by turn 7, getting an engine that got destroyed with the first one and wiffing on the next two after drawing 10 cards. I like it though and it does win games. I'm running a 3-3 split with Retract and it works well as Spirit Guide helps cast it as well even though it is off color.
Heya guys, here is a quick set of stats with the inclusion of Leave // Chance into a build I have used in the past on this thread so the stats should relate. Here is the decklist:
Oddly enough I never scratched in this set of 200 (a scratch being a T7 or later kill). I am sure that there is a chance of it, but with the inclusion of a 6th very reliable bounce spell that has the added utility of re-energizing our gemstones and saving engines seems to have dropped our variance quite a bit. The second ability on Leave // Chance came in clutch just over 2% of the time. Long story short it caused a jump to 87% in kill rate by T4. That is pretty crazy, with some added protection to boot for our engines.
It's against the forum rules to discuss potential bannings as there is another forum for that, but the equipment storm archetype relies on Opal as a key enabler.
Heya guys, here is a quick set of stats with the inclusion of Leave // Chance into a build I have used in the past on this thread so the stats should relate. Here is the decklist:
Oddly enough I never scratched in this set of 200 (a scratch being a T7 or later kill). I am sure that there is a chance of it, but with the inclusion of a 6th very reliable bounce spell that has the added utility of re-energizing our gemstones and saving engines seems to have dropped our variance quite a bit. The second ability on Leave // Chance came in clutch just over 2% of the time. Long story short it caused a jump to 87% in kill rate by T4. That is pretty crazy, with some added protection to boot for our engines.
Why contraband Kingpin, and how do you sequence out your turns with him in the deck... Is he really important? If so why not 3? Is he something you cast if you draw into him to help find what you want?
Heya guys, here is a quick set of stats with the inclusion of Leave // Chance into a build I have used in the past on this thread so the stats should relate. Here is the decklist:
Oddly enough I never scratched in this set of 200 (a scratch being a T7 or later kill). I am sure that there is a chance of it, but with the inclusion of a 6th very reliable bounce spell that has the added utility of re-energizing our gemstones and saving engines seems to have dropped our variance quite a bit. The second ability on Leave // Chance came in clutch just over 2% of the time. Long story short it caused a jump to 87% in kill rate by T4. That is pretty crazy, with some added protection to boot for our engines.
Why contraband Kingpin, and how do you sequence out your turns with him in the deck... Is he really important? If so why not 3? Is he something you cast if you draw into him to help find what you want?
He has quite a few bonuses from what I have experienced:
1. He isn't an engine, but when coupled with either Sram or a paladin he is close. Getting up to 10 possible hits for engines really helped lower the mulligan rates, and having one of these in hand along with an engine really helps with resiliency.
2. When you are down to 5 or 6 cards on a draw after mulligans having one of these gave a much increased rate of digging to a real engine within the first 4 turns with the scry ability than Serum Visions gave on similar keeps.
3. A 4 butt is great, especially coupled with lifelink. Get one Accorder's Shield out on it and a 1/7 vigilence/lifelink can save you a ton of pain and buy a lot of life while digging for another engine.
4. It is mainboard hate for Burn, one of our tougher matches that is fairly common. It really hoses their strat, even if they get an eidolon out. The race almost always goes to us.
Sequencing-wise he is always my first play if I have another engine. If he eats removal great, if they save it that just gives us more draws for more engines and scrying opportunities. Being able to scry lands out of the way of your paladins draw is always wonderful, or after Sram's second and deeper draws. I had one Golem-Skin Gauntlets as an alternative win-con which worked pretty well in some match-ups, but I decided to go for more resiliency with the slot as the 1 CMC was occasionally a pain.
Sometimes you have to get creative with stacking the triggers on the scry to get the most out of him, so really think on that before you move through the combo too fast. Playing your opals at the right time to take advantage of that scry can make or break a combo as well, something that I have seen people forget about since they don't trigger your other engines.
He of course has a couple of down-sides. The black mana, which isn't too terrible, and he is a potential brick later on if you are mid-combo, but going to 10ish engines increased the successful combo rate far more than it contributed to stalled combos. Going to 3 is something that I need to test again now that Leave is around. In my testing before it felt like 11 slots for engines was too many. Having one in the side to bring in against aggro and burn might be a good plan though.
In opening hands I found that if he is without a real engine you usually shouldn't keep the hand. The only good keeps were if you had the capability of playing him, and of getting 5+ cards deeper into the deck through scrying. For instance a 2 land, 1 CBKP,1 Opal, 2 Cheeri0s, 1 Retract. Hands like that were almost always money on T3, but digging for less than 5 was usually fail, similar to the single Serum Visions with no engine keeps.
So What are keepable hands and how far do you mulligan? When i played this deck sometime mulling to 5 just for a land and a serum visions and 3 0's i would keep, cause the odds of mulling to 4 aren't much better. but would you keep a CBK, Land, x2 O's and anything else at 5?
Dividing my time between Lantern & UW Control in Modern, and Legacy is starting to fire in my local meta, so I won't have time to explore this further. IMHO Leave makes the deck better, but it is Tier 3 in the current meta, almost unplayable.
So What are keepable hands and how far do you mulligan? When i played this deck sometime mulling to 5 just for a land and a serum visions and 3 0's i would keep, cause the odds of mulling to 4 aren't much better. but would you keep a CBK, Land, x2 O's and anything else at 5?
At 5 that is an auto-keep against agro/burn. Other MU's I would probably still keep it, but it certainly bears some math.
Why we dont play claim//faim ? It is better then revival exept it doesnt help to recast retract
Noxious Revival over-all gives great resiliency plus a boost to consistency as you mentioned. I think claim // fame gives us better resiliency vs targeted discard or bolts/pushes, but it doesn't boost consistency. Perhaps a SB option.
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I never cared about Leyline anyway. That card is masively overplayed and frequently ineffective against combo like ours. Sadly, Archer doesn't really improve deck weak spots. It doesn't draw cards, so it doesn't replace an engine. It's still a fragile creature, so it doesn't improve resilience. It's basically a creature Grapeshot, except you need to replay all your spells once you are ready to Archer. I'm just not seeing it.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Because often the way the Death's Shadow matchups play out you have to kill things to live another turn so when trying to combo off your fallback position is often to Grapeshot to hit the opponent's board and live another turn. This can happen in succession for multiple turns if your opponent is slow-rolling threats.
I know its red but some of us already play that color
Game 1 I made it almost halfway into my deck without hitting Retract effect. My playtesting partner laughed and pointed out that Muddle the Mixture could get an engine or a Leave and thus belongs in my Jeskai build. I'm considering a 3/3 split between Retract & Leave though, as I was quite impressed with it.
He also had Grixis Shadow, but we had limited time and honestly I just wasn't up for that level of punishment. Lol..
Leave gets back gemstone mine as well. This may be a 2 of that gives us a real positive shift in kill rates before turn 4, and resilience after turn 6. Time to start crunching with the SSG build again.
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
4 Puresteel Paladin
2 Contraband Kingpin
Cheerios (19):
4 Accorder's Shield
4 Cathar's Shield
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Bone Saw
3 Spidersilk Net
Bounce (7):
4 Retract
2 Leave // Chance
1 Echoing Truth
2 Noxious Revival
2 Serum Visions
1 Grapeshot
Mana (19):
4 Mox Opal
4 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
1 Plains
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Wear // Tear
4 Judge's Familiar
1 Noxious Revival
1 Serum Visions
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Echoing Truth
The Stats (200 runs):
T2 Kills 4%
T3 Kills 54%
T4 Kills 29%
T5 Kills 10%
T6 Kills 3%
Oddly enough I never scratched in this set of 200 (a scratch being a T7 or later kill). I am sure that there is a chance of it, but with the inclusion of a 6th very reliable bounce spell that has the added utility of re-energizing our gemstones and saving engines seems to have dropped our variance quite a bit. The second ability on Leave // Chance came in clutch just over 2% of the time. Long story short it caused a jump to 87% in kill rate by T4. That is pretty crazy, with some added protection to boot for our engines.
Why contraband Kingpin, and how do you sequence out your turns with him in the deck... Is he really important? If so why not 3? Is he something you cast if you draw into him to help find what you want?
He has quite a few bonuses from what I have experienced:
1. He isn't an engine, but when coupled with either Sram or a paladin he is close. Getting up to 10 possible hits for engines really helped lower the mulligan rates, and having one of these in hand along with an engine really helps with resiliency.
2. When you are down to 5 or 6 cards on a draw after mulligans having one of these gave a much increased rate of digging to a real engine within the first 4 turns with the scry ability than Serum Visions gave on similar keeps.
3. A 4 butt is great, especially coupled with lifelink. Get one Accorder's Shield out on it and a 1/7 vigilence/lifelink can save you a ton of pain and buy a lot of life while digging for another engine.
4. It is mainboard hate for Burn, one of our tougher matches that is fairly common. It really hoses their strat, even if they get an eidolon out. The race almost always goes to us.
Sequencing-wise he is always my first play if I have another engine. If he eats removal great, if they save it that just gives us more draws for more engines and scrying opportunities. Being able to scry lands out of the way of your paladins draw is always wonderful, or after Sram's second and deeper draws. I had one Golem-Skin Gauntlets as an alternative win-con which worked pretty well in some match-ups, but I decided to go for more resiliency with the slot as the 1 CMC was occasionally a pain.
Sometimes you have to get creative with stacking the triggers on the scry to get the most out of him, so really think on that before you move through the combo too fast. Playing your opals at the right time to take advantage of that scry can make or break a combo as well, something that I have seen people forget about since they don't trigger your other engines.
He of course has a couple of down-sides. The black mana, which isn't too terrible, and he is a potential brick later on if you are mid-combo, but going to 10ish engines increased the successful combo rate far more than it contributed to stalled combos. Going to 3 is something that I need to test again now that Leave is around. In my testing before it felt like 11 slots for engines was too many. Having one in the side to bring in against aggro and burn might be a good plan though.
In opening hands I found that if he is without a real engine you usually shouldn't keep the hand. The only good keeps were if you had the capability of playing him, and of getting 5+ cards deeper into the deck through scrying. For instance a 2 land, 1 CBKP,1 Opal, 2 Cheeri0s, 1 Retract. Hands like that were almost always money on T3, but digging for less than 5 was usually fail, similar to the single Serum Visions with no engine keeps.
So What are keepable hands and how far do you mulligan? When i played this deck sometime mulling to 5 just for a land and a serum visions and 3 0's i would keep, cause the odds of mulling to 4 aren't much better. but would you keep a CBK, Land, x2 O's and anything else at 5?
At 5 that is an auto-keep against agro/burn. Other MU's I would probably still keep it, but it certainly bears some math.
Noxious Revival over-all gives great resiliency plus a boost to consistency as you mentioned. I think claim // fame gives us better resiliency vs targeted discard or bolts/pushes, but it doesn't boost consistency. Perhaps a SB option.