Round 1 - Grixis Land Destruction (2-1)
He was able to slow me down enough with land destruction to make it interesting in games 1 and 2, with it coming down to sub-5 life for both of us in each of those games. Game 3 was a blowout, in comparison, with me ending the game with 19 life, losing only 1 to my own Smallpox. The only problem I ran into was getting a rack effect on line quickly enough to deal damage. Both games 1 and 2 I didn't draw into one until quite a few turns in, once I did, he went down quickly.
Side In: Collective Brutality
Side Out: Dismember
Round 2 - Blue Control/Combo Variant (2-0)
Not even a little concerning. He complained the remainder of the tournament about needing to assemble 2 pieces for his deck to work and that 8-rack made it impossible to do that. He scooped at 10 life in game 2.
No sideboard changes.
Round 3 - Merfolk (2-0)
This was a match up I was dreading. I always feel as though hyper-aggro decks like Merfolk, Elves, and Affinity are the biggest weakness of the deck. The first game he got me down to 1 life. Game 2 I was able to clear the battlefield with 3 rack effects in play and a Mutavault ready to swing in, so I was able to deal lethal with him at 11 and me at 6.
Side In: 2x Bontu's Last Reckoning; 1x Fatal Push; 2x Ratchet Bomb
Side Out: 4x Raven's Crime; 1x Dismember
Round 4 - R/W Burn (2-0)
Burn is another deck I'm not particularly fond of playing against because it comes down to who can top deck better. Fortunately, in both games, I was able to. Game 1 he flooded lands and didn't draw into enough burn spells to finish me. Game 2 he didn't draw into lands and I kept him at 1 land the entire game.
Side In: 2x Death's Shadow; Collective Brutality; 2 x Grafdigger's Cage (I wasn't sure which variant of burn he was running)
Side Out: 4x Raven's Crime; 1x Dismember
Round 5 - Grixis Death's Shadow
Draw into the Top 8 - did not play
Top 8 -
Round 1 - Merfolk (2-0)
Same Merfolk deck I played in Round 3. He played far too defensively and didn't attempt to win the race by being hyper aggressive. These games were a lot more one-sided in my favor.
Round 2 - Merfolk (0-2)
This Merfolk player admitted to having a friend that he frequently plays against that mains an 8-rack deck. He utilized a hyper-aggro strategy and was able to top-deck into very fruitful Master of Waves in both games, dealing over 14 of lethal early in game 2.
The biggest revelation from playing in the PPTQ was how to deal with Merfolk and aggro decks.
- I do think taking the play is the way to go in these match ups. I did not do that in my Top 8 and paid for it.
- I think 3x Bontu's Last Reckoning in the sideboard is the correct number.
- I will be removing Funeral Charm from the deck. As much fun as I've had with the card in the past, I've found that in the key situations where I want removal, it doesn't do the trick. Either it's ineffective because the -1 isn't enough or the singular, un-targeted discard is mediocre, considering the other options. In its place I'll be running 2x Collective Brutality. The modes are just a bit better and I found them more effective across the board. The added C of cost was not an issue, that I can recall. I had plenty of lands or other "dead" cards to discard for the Escalate cost if I wanted, based on where I was playing CB at in the game. I'll also add in a 2nd Dismember. A resolved Master of Waves made it apparent how important it is to get that card out of the game immediately and a Push won't always have a Revolt trigger to get that done.
- I have also played around with the previously mentioned Ensnaring Bridge / Bontu's Last Reckoning combination, in place of Fatal Push, Dismember, and Funeral Charm. I did not like it whatsoever. Far too costly in many situations. Bridge was easily removed or useless because of cards in hand. On and on we go.
Unrelated to Aggro:
- Delirium Skeins never came out because I wasn't matched up against any decks where it was needed. I have play tested it though and it was very useful. The only reason I have 1 SB is because that's the only copy I had the day of the tournament.
Thank you for the report and congratulations on your run.
I think that Merfolk is more dangerous for non Ensnaring Bridge variants (and in a different category of Elves and Robots), because a board wipe against them is not enough; they can easily draw 2 lords with a Mutavault in play and go to town. Their only answer to bridge is Echoing Truth or Hurkyl's Recall.
Are those 3 Grafdigger's Cage in sb because of fear of dredge or what? I think we have good matchups against Storm and Company decks.
You mentioned you want to add another Dismember. Why not adding 4 fetches and going the full Fatal Push playset mb?
Do you think that 23 lands is the correct number, despite playing 4 Raven's Crime and 4 Smallpox?
Round 1 - Grixis Land Destruction (2-1)
He was able to slow me down enough with land destruction to make it interesting in games 1 and 2, with it coming down to sub-5 life for both of us in each of those games. Game 3 was a blowout, in comparison, with me ending the game with 19 life, losing only 1 to my own Smallpox. The only problem I ran into was getting a rack effect on line quickly enough to deal damage. Both games 1 and 2 I didn't draw into one until quite a few turns in, once I did, he went down quickly.
Side In: Collective Brutality
Side Out: Dismember
Round 2 - Blue Control/Combo Variant (2-0)
Not even a little concerning. He complained the remainder of the tournament about needing to assemble 2 pieces for his deck to work and that 8-rack made it impossible to do that. He scooped at 10 life in game 2.
No sideboard changes.
Round 3 - Merfolk (2-0)
This was a match up I was dreading. I always feel as though hyper-aggro decks like Merfolk, Elves, and Affinity are the biggest weakness of the deck. The first game he got me down to 1 life. Game 2 I was able to clear the battlefield with 3 rack effects in play and a Mutavault ready to swing in, so I was able to deal lethal with him at 11 and me at 6.
Side In: 2x Bontu's Last Reckoning; 1x Fatal Push; 2x Ratchet Bomb
Side Out: 4x Raven's Crime; 1x Dismember
Round 4 - R/W Burn (2-0)
Burn is another deck I'm not particularly fond of playing against because it comes down to who can top deck better. Fortunately, in both games, I was able to. Game 1 he flooded lands and didn't draw into enough burn spells to finish me. Game 2 he didn't draw into lands and I kept him at 1 land the entire game.
Side In: 2x Death's Shadow; Collective Brutality; 2 x Grafdigger's Cage (I wasn't sure which variant of burn he was running)
Side Out: 4x Raven's Crime; 1x Dismember
Round 5 - Grixis Death's Shadow
Draw into the Top 8 - did not play
Top 8 -
Round 1 - Merfolk (2-0)
Same Merfolk deck I played in Round 3. He played far too defensively and didn't attempt to win the race by being hyper aggressive. These games were a lot more one-sided in my favor.
Round 2 - Merfolk (0-2)
This Merfolk player admitted to having a friend that he frequently plays against that mains an 8-rack deck. He utilized a hyper-aggro strategy and was able to top-deck into very fruitful Master of Waves in both games, dealing over 14 of lethal early in game 2.
The biggest revelation from playing in the PPTQ was how to deal with Merfolk and aggro decks.
- I do think taking the play is the way to go in these match ups. I did not do that in my Top 8 and paid for it.
- I think 3x Bontu's Last Reckoning in the sideboard is the correct number.
- I will be removing Funeral Charm from the deck. As much fun as I've had with the card in the past, I've found that in the key situations where I want removal, it doesn't do the trick. Either it's ineffective because the -1 isn't enough or the singular, un-targeted discard is mediocre, considering the other options. In its place I'll be running 2x Collective Brutality. The modes are just a bit better and I found them more effective across the board. The added C of cost was not an issue, that I can recall. I had plenty of lands or other "dead" cards to discard for the Escalate cost if I wanted, based on where I was playing CB at in the game. I'll also add in a 2nd Dismember. A resolved Master of Waves made it apparent how important it is to get that card out of the game immediately and a Push won't always have a Revolt trigger to get that done.
- I have also played around with the previously mentioned Ensnaring Bridge / Bontu's Last Reckoning combination, in place of Fatal Push, Dismember, and Funeral Charm. I did not like it whatsoever. Far too costly in many situations. Bridge was easily removed or useless because of cards in hand. On and on we go.
Unrelated to Aggro:
- Delirium Skeins never came out because I wasn't matched up against any decks where it was needed. I have play tested it though and it was very useful. The only reason I have 1 SB is because that's the only copy I had the day of the tournament.
Thank you for the report and congratulations on your run.
I think that Merfolk is more dangerous for non Ensnaring Bridge variants (and in a different category of Elves and Robots), because a board wipe against them is not enough; they can easily draw 2 lords with a Mutavault in play and go to town. Their only answer to bridge is Echoing Truth or Hurkyl's Recall.
Are those 3 Grafdigger's Cage in sb because of fear of dredge or what? I think we have good matchups against Storm and Company decks.
You mentioned you want to add another Dismember. Why not adding 4 fetches and going the full Fatal Push playset mb?
Do you think that 23 lands is the correct number, despite playing 4 Raven's Crime and 4 Smallpox?
The Cages are there for dredge, storm, company, & finks decks. I don't run an Extraction in the 75, so my only option for stopping those threats is Cage, Void, etc. I know Ross runs 4 Leyline of the Void, but I'm not a fan of the hard cast cost of the card and Grafdigger's Cage hits more threats.
As for adding in the 4 fetches, that's definitely something I've considered doing and I may do that this Thursday @ my LGS to see how it goes. However, I do like having Dismember in the deck for the occasions where my opponent is running high mana creatures that are susceptible to -5/-5 removal. With the prevalence of Grixis DS, Gurmag Angler and Tasigur, the Golden Fang won't get taken out by a Fatal Push, even with a Revolt trigger, but a Dismember will get it done. Additionally, I have run into some "indestructible" creatures that a Bontu's or Push won't get, but a Dismember would.
The other thing to consider is when removal is being played. Most likely, it's T/1-3, when the opponent is playing low cost creatures at the beginning of the game. Then again, once the top deck begins. That makes me question the necessity of running 4 fetches purely for revolt triggers, because the frequency with which you're going to need a revolt trigger, have a Push available, and a fetch available is low(?)(meaning I'm not sure). I'm certainly willing to give it a shot though because, as you said, it'll help thin the deck, with Urborg in, they're swamps anyways and not useless, so we'll see what happens.
The only time I felt short on land during the event was playing against the land destruction deck. Otherwise, I think there may have been a total of 2-3 turns the whole day that I was waiting on a 3rd land to play a Lilli. Otherwise, I had plenty of lands to pitch to Raven's Crime, Collective Brutality to escalate, or Smallpox.
I think twenty-three lands is more than enough. also I think and I see that four copies of urborg and mutavault is very excessive, many times we will have to force the mulligan to have two copies of muta in hand or two urborg in hand, besides that can stop us the game. I think 3/3 is the right thing to do.
also would opt for three fetch ia many creatures we can not kill. spellqueller relikary kitchen eternal vendillion master etc ... right now I'm playing with 23 lands and you end up with too much mana. I have removed two funeral charms since they are mediocre and I am playing with four fatal push and two dismember. the wrench mind took four, I think it's the right number if you play in an aggro meta and control with few affinitys and tron .
I tend to agree with 3 of Mutavaults and will be making that change tonight. Too many times I've seen multiple copies of it in my hand, rather than a black source. Seeing multiple Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth doesn't bother me because you can always float a B, play the 2nd copy, and tap your other land for the 3rd mana to cast the Lili or Bontu's. Also, having 4x Urborg is good to trigger Revolt off of the Legendary Rule, imo.
I've got my updated list for tonight, based on my observations from last weekend, so we'll see how it fares.
Went 3-1 last night, matching up against: 1) Vengevine; 2) Gifts Storm 3) U/W Control 4) Traditional Jund
Vengevine - 2-1
Unfortunately, this was my buddy, so it knocked him out of the running and I know the deck pretty well, having played against it. I definitely feel favored in this match, with the ability to control the game much better than he can create threats. Much like a true combo deck, there's always a risk of a great top deck that lets you run it into a dangerous combo, which is what happened game 2.
Side in: 3x Grafdigger's Cage; 1x Fatal Push; 3x Bontu's
Side Out: 4x Raven's Crime; 1x CB; 2x Thoughtseize
Gifts Storm - 2-1
I really dislike playing against Combo decks because of the lack of interaction and the feeling that they're just a ticking time bomb that will go off any moment... That aside, he took game 1 fairly easily. I was able to hold him off for quite a while and tink him down with Mutavault and Rack effects for a while, but ultimately he got the combo off. Games 2 and 3 were no contest, because of sideboard. Game 2 I Thougthseized his Smash to Smithereens in T1 or T2, then played a Grafdigger's T3, with a 2nd in hand from a top deck. He made no attempt at getting a storm count going and could not keep any creatures on the field. Game 3 I had a Grafdigger's in play for a few turns, he was able to start his combo and destroyed it with Smash, played his Baral, Chief of Compliance. That was the beginning of his ramp into the lethal storm count, unfortunately for him, I had a Push in hand, and destroyed the Chief in response, ending that right away. From there, he couldn't put anything else together as I took total control of the game.
Side in: 3x Grafdigger's Cage; 1x Collective Brutality
Side out: 4x Raven's Crime
U/W Control - 0-2
This one I totally botched. Both games I kept lackluster hands and I think I sideboarded incorrectly. I also think the lack of the additional Delirium Skeins in the SB was a problem. Game 1 he resolved a big Gideon. I was able to hold him off and ultimate Lili, placing Gideon in 1 pile and all of his lands in the other. He kept Gideon and proceeded to beat me down. Game 2 I got him down into single digit life, but couldn't close the game out as he utilized Sphinx's Revelation to turn the tables on me.
Side in: 1x Delirium Skeins; 2x Asylum Visitor
Side out: 3x Fatal Push
Traditional Jund - 2-0
Easy match up here. This guy also plays a B/W 8-rack variant, so he knew what I was all about, but couldn't accomplish anything. I finished both games at 19 life or so, taking damage only from Smallpoxes and fetches.
Side in: 1x Fatal Push
Side out: 1x Collective Brutality
All in all, the deck felt good.
- Running 3x Mutavault felt better than 4 of. I had it in play every game and only had mana issues for 1-2 turns during my Jund matchup, as I waited for a 3rd mana source to get a Lili on the board.
- Running 3x Fetch lands felt good too. I only had one game of having to use a fetch for the sole purpose of getting a Swamp. Otherwise, they were great B sources with an Urborg in play and definitely were useful for Revolt triggers. I never had an issue with a 4C creature in play that I could not remove, due to a lack of a Revolt trigger. I'll keep running the 3x fetches and see if that feeling continues.
- I did not miss Funeral Charm in the deck whatsoever.
- Collective Brutality definitely had its shining moments of being able to utilize multiple modes by pitching excess lands.
- I'm going to remove Ratchet Bomb from the SB, in favor of adding the additional Delirium Skeins.
- I wasn't impressed by Asylum Visitor either and will be testing 2x Pack Rat instead. The reason being, Asylum Visitor seems to be the card to add in when you're in for the long haul games, to allow you to get back to card advantage. However, considering what our cards do, having more discard spells in your hand isn't really that helpful late game, in my experience, as your opponent is usually only sitting at 1 card from their draw step anyways. Thus, most of the cards we draw into late game are dead, as we wait for Rack effects or a Mutavault to come in for a win condition to finish them off. Pack Rat would take those dead cards and unused mana and turn it into additional rats and increased threat. I think this creates a quicker clock and creates a better board state for the deck. In theory. I'll have to test it out to see, but I've definitely seen a number of people online say that they really enjoy Pack Rat in the deck.
Went 3-1 last night, matching up against: 1) Vengevine; 2) Gifts Storm 3) U/W Control 4) Traditional Jund
Vengevine - 2-1
Unfortunately, this was my buddy, so it knocked him out of the running and I know the deck pretty well, having played against it. I definitely feel favored in this match, with the ability to control the game much better than he can create threats. Much like a true combo deck, there's always a risk of a great top deck that lets you run it into a dangerous combo, which is what happened game 2.
Side in: 3x Grafdigger's Cage; 1x Fatal Push; 3x Bontu's
Side Out: 4x Raven's Crime; 1x CB; 2x Thoughtseize
Gifts Storm - 2-1
I really dislike playing against Combo decks because of the lack of interaction and the feeling that they're just a ticking time bomb that will go off any moment... That aside, he took game 1 fairly easily. I was able to hold him off for quite a while and tink him down with Mutavault and Rack effects for a while, but ultimately he got the combo off. Games 2 and 3 were no contest, because of sideboard. Game 2 I Thougthseized his Smash to Smithereens in T1 or T2, then played a Grafdigger's T3, with a 2nd in hand from a top deck. He made no attempt at getting a storm count going and could not keep any creatures on the field. Game 3 I had a Grafdigger's in play for a few turns, he was able to start his combo and destroyed it with Smash, played his Baral, Chief of Compliance. That was the beginning of his ramp into the lethal storm count, unfortunately for him, I had a Push in hand, and destroyed the Chief in response, ending that right away. From there, he couldn't put anything else together as I took total control of the game.
Side in: 3x Grafdigger's Cage; 1x Collective Brutality
Side out: 4x Raven's Crime
U/W Control - 0-2
This one I totally botched. Both games I kept lackluster hands and I think I sideboarded incorrectly. I also think the lack of the additional Delirium Skeins in the SB was a problem. Game 1 he resolved a big Gideon. I was able to hold him off and ultimate Lili, placing Gideon in 1 pile and all of his lands in the other. He kept Gideon and proceeded to beat me down. Game 2 I got him down into single digit life, but couldn't close the game out as he utilized Sphinx's Revelation to turn the tables on me.
Side in: 1x Delirium Skeins; 2x Asylum Visitor
Side out: 3x Fatal Push
Traditional Jund - 2-0
Easy match up here. This guy also plays a B/W 8-rack variant, so he knew what I was all about, but couldn't accomplish anything. I finished both games at 19 life or so, taking damage only from Smallpoxes and fetches.
Side in: 1x Fatal Push
Side out: 1x Collective Brutality
All in all, the deck felt good.
- Running 3x Mutavault felt better than 4 of. I had it in play every game and only had mana issues for 1-2 turns during my Jund matchup, as I waited for a 3rd mana source to get a Lili on the board.
- Running 3x Fetch lands felt good too. I only had one game of having to use a fetch for the sole purpose of getting a Swamp. Otherwise, they were great B sources with an Urborg in play and definitely were useful for Revolt triggers. I never had an issue with a 4C creature in play that I could not remove, due to a lack of a Revolt trigger. I'll keep running the 3x fetches and see if that feeling continues.
- I did not miss Funeral Charm in the deck whatsoever.
- Collective Brutality definitely had its shining moments of being able to utilize multiple modes by pitching excess lands.
- I'm going to remove Ratchet Bomb from the SB, in favor of adding the additional Delirium Skeins.
- I wasn't impressed by Asylum Visitor either and will be testing 2x Pack Rat instead. The reason being, Asylum Visitor seems to be the card to add in when you're in for the long haul games, to allow you to get back to card advantage. However, considering what our cards do, having more discard spells in your hand isn't really that helpful late game, in my experience, as your opponent is usually only sitting at 1 card from their draw step anyways. Thus, most of the cards we draw into late game are dead, as we wait for Rack effects or a Mutavault to come in for a win condition to finish them off. Pack Rat would take those dead cards and unused mana and turn it into additional rats and increased threat. I think this creates a quicker clock and creates a better board state for the deck. In theory. I'll have to test it out to see, but I've definitely seen a number of people online say that they really enjoy Pack Rat in the deck.
First off, I would like to say that this is an excellent report here, very insightful and very well put!
Secondly, I noticed you said you were replacing the Funeral Charm for the 2nd CB, was there a reason you up'd your count of Wrench Minds to 4 instead of the CB to 2? How did Ghost Quarter feel in the MB, very interesting tech but can be effective! Also, the 2nd Dismember, many have told me that 2x Dismember can be an issue with taking damage for removal; however, what was your experience with the 2nd copy.
The deck looks very good in my opinion and one that I'd like to try out myself and see. My local meta here runs a few 8-Racks and a few of the typical builds like Death Shadow's, etc, etc. Any changes you'd recommend if focusing around that?
Hello people ! today I got the first place in the trial mkm series. 7-1 in global. in theory will be the list in tc decks. I only lost the first against ub faeries. I have managed to win titanshift burn uwr urkiki etc ...
highlight things on the deck.
23 more than enough land.
4 wrench mind
no pack rat. I am not convinced i is weak, is usually topdeck bad.
night of souls betrayal is bound to give you the match against affinyti infect and coco.
little more to say with the desire to go to the mkm of barcelona and to be able to play a good role. this deck will give us many joys! greetings 8 rack players and remember. always on the draw
Awesome job! How'd the 4 Wrench Mind play out? Any info on hyper-aggro match-ups?
Hello, this week I'm Going to play the playoff of a tournament series that warrants invitations for a bigger tournament for top2 and there's a very limited range of decks that I can face, so I was thinking that maybe 8-rack would be a good choice if tuned well for it.
The playoff is in the format that wizards used on the PT (1st and 2nd enter directly to the semifinals, 3rd and 4th on quarterfinals and so on)
The matchups would be:
1st match (I choose first if I play or draw): Winner of match between Burn or RUG Scapeshift (the old version) (most likely to be Burn as it's favored)
2nd match (opponent chooses first if he plays or draws): RG Scapeshift or 4C Humans (or bant)
Then finals, which doesn't really matter as getting top2 is enough
What are your thoughts about tuning 8-rack for this matches? Would it be favored?
I don't think there would be much to change on recent lists for the Valakut/Scapeshift matchups
My biggest concern is the Humans matchup, in which I don't know exactly how to tune the deck for it. What would be your suggestions? How can we tune the list to consistently beat CoCo aggro decks? I'm thinking that Grafdigger's Cage is a good option against CoCo and also, as much Bontu's Last Reckoning as I can fit in the board. But beyond that I'm having a hard time finding what could give a gamebreaker advantage.
Then, the burn matchup, are you having more success choosing to play or to draw?
Would you think that playing 4 Collective Brutality main deck could be a good choice for this expected matches and good enought to give some advantage on the burn matchup? What else would you suggest?
fatal push is the removal I needed mono black .
the three fetch are to activate the revolt to the late game. since with urborg in play with the fetch you can add black without sacrificing it. and that's very good because at the given time it can help you to activate the push revolt. I found many times that a simple vendilion cliqueIt kills you ,
and have the fatal push in hand and not have revolt. being able to activate the revolt can save us from many dangerous creatures . Master of Etherium,Thought-Knot Seer ,Restoration Angel ,Flickerwisp , Obstinate Baloth , Master of Waves etc..
I've heard multiple arguments and I definitely agree that revolt is a big upside running the fetches. It also helps enable against Burn with your DS. I found my mana list to be this if I do decide to run the 3 fetches:
I hope it brings you good results. by the way, the fetch can go well. if you do mulligan and put something in the bottom of the library .. with fetch can change !! Hahaha !! Greetings . I am very scrupulous but it has its logic
No I definitely agree, I've seen lists shift more towards the 3 Fetch plan as it gives you versatility for Revolt triggers. As I've read and seen, Hyper Aggro decks can tend to be a problem and any way to enhance your removal package will benefit you in the longer run. I will say, wouldn't you prefer running a 4 of Urborg if running 3 Fetches?
Anyways, I'd like to finalize the list I have came too after a weekend of thought on how I'd like to pilot the list. I will be changing the fetch output for that sake of revolt triggers.
I've actually started to play one Bontu's Last Reckoning main over a Dismember.
Fatal Push is great, its amazing. What Fatal Push can't hit, Dismember/Smallpox can take care of (or Lily). We have single target removal clearly taken care of. What I usually lose to is swarm tactics that I can't handle. Damnation has always been too slow but Bontu's Last Reckoning is very much on curve.
10-14 main removal package is what most play (not counting Liliana of the Veil). Those concist of 3-4 Fatal Push, 4 Smallpox, 1-2 Dismember, 0-4 Collective Brutality and 0-2 Funeral Charm. I propose that y'all try a one-of Bontu's Last Reckoning instead of the earlier mentioned cards.
I've actually started to play one Bontu's Last Reckoning main over a Dismember.
Fatal Push is great, its amazing. What Fatal Push can't hit, Dismember/Smallpox can take care of (or Lily). We have single target removal clearly taken care of. What I usually lose to is swarm tactics that I can't handle. Damnation has always been too slow but Bontu's Last Reckoning is very much on curve.
Loads of things. Besides brews there is quite a few T1/T2 decks that use bigger creatures.
Eldrazis
Tasigur
Gurmag
Shadow
Titan
Baloth
Goyf
Big Flayer
Knight of the Relinqary
Master of Eterium
Merfolk with two lords
Slivers with two lords
Elves with two lords
Humans with counters
There sure is exceptions here. Flaying is betters vs dredge and Vizier combo. Maybe some more matchups, but I think the list shows quite a few regularly played creatures that BLR hit thaat Flaying don't.
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Thank you for the report and congratulations on your run.
I think that Merfolk is more dangerous for non Ensnaring Bridge variants (and in a different category of Elves and Robots), because a board wipe against them is not enough; they can easily draw 2 lords with a Mutavault in play and go to town. Their only answer to bridge is Echoing Truth or Hurkyl's Recall.
Are those 3 Grafdigger's Cage in sb because of fear of dredge or what? I think we have good matchups against Storm and Company decks.
You mentioned you want to add another Dismember. Why not adding 4 fetches and going the full Fatal Push playset mb?
Do you think that 23 lands is the correct number, despite playing 4 Raven's Crime and 4 Smallpox?
Thanks!
Getting revolt when the all-star creatures of the format are 1 and 2 CMC, or over 4 CMC isn't relevant and not worth the 1 life either.
In short, since we don't need them for fixing Fetches aren't worth it.
The Cages are there for dredge, storm, company, & finks decks. I don't run an Extraction in the 75, so my only option for stopping those threats is Cage, Void, etc. I know Ross runs 4 Leyline of the Void, but I'm not a fan of the hard cast cost of the card and Grafdigger's Cage hits more threats.
As for adding in the 4 fetches, that's definitely something I've considered doing and I may do that this Thursday @ my LGS to see how it goes. However, I do like having Dismember in the deck for the occasions where my opponent is running high mana creatures that are susceptible to -5/-5 removal. With the prevalence of Grixis DS, Gurmag Angler and Tasigur, the Golden Fang won't get taken out by a Fatal Push, even with a Revolt trigger, but a Dismember will get it done. Additionally, I have run into some "indestructible" creatures that a Bontu's or Push won't get, but a Dismember would.
The other thing to consider is when removal is being played. Most likely, it's T/1-3, when the opponent is playing low cost creatures at the beginning of the game. Then again, once the top deck begins. That makes me question the necessity of running 4 fetches purely for revolt triggers, because the frequency with which you're going to need a revolt trigger, have a Push available, and a fetch available is low(?)(meaning I'm not sure). I'm certainly willing to give it a shot though because, as you said, it'll help thin the deck, with Urborg in, they're swamps anyways and not useless, so we'll see what happens.
The only time I felt short on land during the event was playing against the land destruction deck. Otherwise, I think there may have been a total of 2-3 turns the whole day that I was waiting on a 3rd land to play a Lilli. Otherwise, I had plenty of lands to pitch to Raven's Crime, Collective Brutality to escalate, or Smallpox.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/30-01-17-ECi-8-rack/
Matchups?
I tend to agree with 3 of Mutavaults and will be making that change tonight. Too many times I've seen multiple copies of it in my hand, rather than a black source. Seeing multiple Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth doesn't bother me because you can always float a B, play the 2nd copy, and tap your other land for the 3rd mana to cast the Lili or Bontu's. Also, having 4x Urborg is good to trigger Revolt off of the Legendary Rule, imo.
I've got my updated list for tonight, based on my observations from last weekend, so we'll see how it fares.
Through the breach, U/W control, Jeskai control, ad nauseum
2x Dismember
3x Fatal Push
Discard (20) -
1x Collective Brutality
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Raven's Crime
4x Smallpox
3x Thoughtseize
4x Wrench Mind
Rack Effects (8) -
4x The Rack
4x Shrieking Affliction
Planeswalker (4) -
4x Lilians of the Veil
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Ghost Quarter
3x Mutavault
1x Polluted Delta
12x Swamp
4x Urbrog, Tomb Yawgmoth
2x Asylum Visitor
2x Death's Shadow
3x Bontu's Last Reckoning
1x Collective Brutality
1x Delirium Skeins
1x Fatal Push
2x Ratchet Bomb
Went 3-1 last night, matching up against: 1) Vengevine; 2) Gifts Storm 3) U/W Control 4) Traditional Jund
Vengevine - 2-1
Unfortunately, this was my buddy, so it knocked him out of the running and I know the deck pretty well, having played against it. I definitely feel favored in this match, with the ability to control the game much better than he can create threats. Much like a true combo deck, there's always a risk of a great top deck that lets you run it into a dangerous combo, which is what happened game 2.
Side in: 3x Grafdigger's Cage; 1x Fatal Push; 3x Bontu's
Side Out: 4x Raven's Crime; 1x CB; 2x Thoughtseize
Gifts Storm - 2-1
I really dislike playing against Combo decks because of the lack of interaction and the feeling that they're just a ticking time bomb that will go off any moment... That aside, he took game 1 fairly easily. I was able to hold him off for quite a while and tink him down with Mutavault and Rack effects for a while, but ultimately he got the combo off. Games 2 and 3 were no contest, because of sideboard. Game 2 I Thougthseized his Smash to Smithereens in T1 or T2, then played a Grafdigger's T3, with a 2nd in hand from a top deck. He made no attempt at getting a storm count going and could not keep any creatures on the field. Game 3 I had a Grafdigger's in play for a few turns, he was able to start his combo and destroyed it with Smash, played his Baral, Chief of Compliance. That was the beginning of his ramp into the lethal storm count, unfortunately for him, I had a Push in hand, and destroyed the Chief in response, ending that right away. From there, he couldn't put anything else together as I took total control of the game.
Side in: 3x Grafdigger's Cage; 1x Collective Brutality
Side out: 4x Raven's Crime
U/W Control - 0-2
This one I totally botched. Both games I kept lackluster hands and I think I sideboarded incorrectly. I also think the lack of the additional Delirium Skeins in the SB was a problem. Game 1 he resolved a big Gideon. I was able to hold him off and ultimate Lili, placing Gideon in 1 pile and all of his lands in the other. He kept Gideon and proceeded to beat me down. Game 2 I got him down into single digit life, but couldn't close the game out as he utilized Sphinx's Revelation to turn the tables on me.
Side in: 1x Delirium Skeins; 2x Asylum Visitor
Side out: 3x Fatal Push
Traditional Jund - 2-0
Easy match up here. This guy also plays a B/W 8-rack variant, so he knew what I was all about, but couldn't accomplish anything. I finished both games at 19 life or so, taking damage only from Smallpoxes and fetches.
Side in: 1x Fatal Push
Side out: 1x Collective Brutality
All in all, the deck felt good.
- Running 3x Mutavault felt better than 4 of. I had it in play every game and only had mana issues for 1-2 turns during my Jund matchup, as I waited for a 3rd mana source to get a Lili on the board.
- Running 3x Fetch lands felt good too. I only had one game of having to use a fetch for the sole purpose of getting a Swamp. Otherwise, they were great B sources with an Urborg in play and definitely were useful for Revolt triggers. I never had an issue with a 4C creature in play that I could not remove, due to a lack of a Revolt trigger. I'll keep running the 3x fetches and see if that feeling continues.
- I did not miss Funeral Charm in the deck whatsoever.
- Collective Brutality definitely had its shining moments of being able to utilize multiple modes by pitching excess lands.
- I'm going to remove Ratchet Bomb from the SB, in favor of adding the additional Delirium Skeins.
- I wasn't impressed by Asylum Visitor either and will be testing 2x Pack Rat instead. The reason being, Asylum Visitor seems to be the card to add in when you're in for the long haul games, to allow you to get back to card advantage. However, considering what our cards do, having more discard spells in your hand isn't really that helpful late game, in my experience, as your opponent is usually only sitting at 1 card from their draw step anyways. Thus, most of the cards we draw into late game are dead, as we wait for Rack effects or a Mutavault to come in for a win condition to finish them off. Pack Rat would take those dead cards and unused mana and turn it into additional rats and increased threat. I think this creates a quicker clock and creates a better board state for the deck. In theory. I'll have to test it out to see, but I've definitely seen a number of people online say that they really enjoy Pack Rat in the deck.
First off, I would like to say that this is an excellent report here, very insightful and very well put!
Secondly, I noticed you said you were replacing the Funeral Charm for the 2nd CB, was there a reason you up'd your count of Wrench Minds to 4 instead of the CB to 2? How did Ghost Quarter feel in the MB, very interesting tech but can be effective! Also, the 2nd Dismember, many have told me that 2x Dismember can be an issue with taking damage for removal; however, what was your experience with the 2nd copy.
The deck looks very good in my opinion and one that I'd like to try out myself and see. My local meta here runs a few 8-Racks and a few of the typical builds like Death Shadow's, etc, etc. Any changes you'd recommend if focusing around that?
BB8-RackBB
Pauper:
UUDelverlUU
Awesome job! How'd the 4 Wrench Mind play out? Any info on hyper-aggro match-ups?
BB8-RackBB
Pauper:
UUDelverlUU
The playoff is in the format that wizards used on the PT (1st and 2nd enter directly to the semifinals, 3rd and 4th on quarterfinals and so on)
The matchups would be:
1st match (I choose first if I play or draw): Winner of match between Burn or RUG Scapeshift (the old version) (most likely to be Burn as it's favored)
2nd match (opponent chooses first if he plays or draws): RG Scapeshift or 4C Humans (or bant)
Then finals, which doesn't really matter as getting top2 is enough
What are your thoughts about tuning 8-rack for this matches? Would it be favored?
I don't think there would be much to change on recent lists for the Valakut/Scapeshift matchups
My biggest concern is the Humans matchup, in which I don't know exactly how to tune the deck for it. What would be your suggestions? How can we tune the list to consistently beat CoCo aggro decks? I'm thinking that Grafdigger's Cage is a good option against CoCo and also, as much Bontu's Last Reckoning as I can fit in the board. But beyond that I'm having a hard time finding what could give a gamebreaker advantage.
Then, the burn matchup, are you having more success choosing to play or to draw?
Would you think that playing 4 Collective Brutality main deck could be a good choice for this expected matches and good enought to give some advantage on the burn matchup? What else would you suggest?
How did you like the 3 Fetches in the main?
BB8-RackBB
Pauper:
UUDelverlUU
I've heard multiple arguments and I definitely agree that revolt is a big upside running the fetches. It also helps enable against Burn with your DS. I found my mana list to be this if I do decide to run the 3 fetches:
13 Swamp
3 Fetches
3 Mutavaults
4 Urborg
BB8-RackBB
Pauper:
UUDelverlUU
No I definitely agree, I've seen lists shift more towards the 3 Fetch plan as it gives you versatility for Revolt triggers. As I've read and seen, Hyper Aggro decks can tend to be a problem and any way to enhance your removal package will benefit you in the longer run. I will say, wouldn't you prefer running a 4 of Urborg if running 3 Fetches?
Anyways, I'd like to finalize the list I have came too after a weekend of thought on how I'd like to pilot the list. I will be changing the fetch output for that sake of revolt triggers.
1x Dismember
3x Fatal Push
2x Funeral Charm
Sorceries:
1x Collective Brutality
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Raven's Crime
4x Smallpox
3x Thoughtseize
3x Wrench Mind
4x The Rack
4x Shrieking Affliction
Planeswalkers:
4x Liliana of the Veil
Lands:
3x Mutavault
3x Marsh Flats
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
13x Swamp
2x Asylum Visitor
2x Death's Shadow
2x Bontu's Last Reckoning
1x Collective Brutality
3x Delirium Skeins
1x Dismember
1x Fatal Push
3x Leyline of the Void
BB8-RackBB
Pauper:
UUDelverlUU
Fatal Push is great, its amazing. What Fatal Push can't hit, Dismember/Smallpox can take care of (or Lily). We have single target removal clearly taken care of. What I usually lose to is swarm tactics that I can't handle. Damnation has always been too slow but Bontu's Last Reckoning is very much on curve.
10-14 main removal package is what most play (not counting Liliana of the Veil). Those concist of 3-4 Fatal Push, 4 Smallpox, 1-2 Dismember, 0-4 Collective Brutality and 0-2 Funeral Charm. I propose that y'all try a one-of Bontu's Last Reckoning instead of the earlier mentioned cards.
1 Funeral Charm
4 Smallpox
1 Collective Brutality
1 Dismember
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
What were you seeing that Flaying Tendrils wouldn't have hit?
Eldrazis
Tasigur
Gurmag
Shadow
Titan
Baloth
Goyf
Big Flayer
Knight of the Relinqary
Master of Eterium
Merfolk with two lords
Slivers with two lords
Elves with two lords
Humans with counters
There sure is exceptions here. Flaying is betters vs dredge and Vizier combo. Maybe some more matchups, but I think the list shows quite a few regularly played creatures that BLR hit thaat Flaying don't.