Appreciate the love brother! As Syreal said, we've both been focusing on Standard for Nationals. I just had a cheeky league before going out on Saturday! I'll stream this week for sure!
Is there a reason GU Beck-Elves isn't as popular as the big 3 variants other than Pyroclasm/Anger?
That list is relatively stock. Beck Elves never got popular because it pushes the deck well into the combo variant and Beck is not Glimpse. Not even close.
Land (18)
2x Cavern of Souls
3x Forest
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Pendelhaven
4x Razorverge Thicket
1x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
Instant (8)
4x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
The major deviation from most lists is that I run 4 Visionary and 1 Mystic since I feel that drawing into gas and placing a body down is preferable to turn 1 mana dork 6-8. I also run an EWitness over one Ezuri since it helps win some MUs with its value. Any insight regarding this that I might not be aware of?
Also, Pendelhaven seems underwhelming most of the time. Im also considering moving in Abbey over Nythkos, but not sure if a win-con is preferred to an enabler (I don't want two colorless sources). I'm running two caverns because I only own 2 on paper and wanted to feel it out. Is 2 enough?
Anyone have anything to say about the manabase?
You really should be running all 8 dorks. That turn one dork really sets the pace of the deck. Also consider that you only run 18 lands which is very light and only possible from the fact that we run 8 dorks. You're replacing a 1 drop that creates mana with a 2 drop that doesn't. The change you are making slows the deck down considerably and will make the key cards in the deck, Archdruid, Ezuri, Coco, Chord, look pretty clunky.
With the absence of Shaman of the Pack, Ezuri is THE win condition. Infinite mana does nothing without Ezuri so I would strongly considering running 4 in the GW version of elves. I would keep in Eternal Witness too, and consider cutting something like a Nettle Sentinel or the Visionary left over from putting back in the missing 3 Mystic.
Pendelhaven may not be relevant in a lot of matchups, but we get to run it for free. The only reason not to run Pendelhaven is if you're worried about Blood Moon and in that case just replace it with a forest. Abbey vs Nykthos is a toss up. Some decks just lose to a flipped Abbey and Nykthos may help you go off a turn earlier so you can't go wrong with either one of those. 2 Caverns is fine. There aren't many counters in the meta right now for it to be spectacular so it will primarily be just another green source for your elves or white if you need to name another creature type, but it's another utility land that we get to run without much of a downside.
Realistically, what win percentages does this deck have against: Grixis Death's Shadow, Eldrazi Tron, Titanshift, Affinity, Burn, UW Control, Abzan CoCo, Eldrazi and Taxes and RG Ponza, in his classical Ezuri/Archdruid/Shaman of the Pack version?
Same question but for the version with white for Vizier, Selfless Spirit, Horizon Canopy and possibly Path to Exile?
GDS: 60% - You're definitely favoured, they do almost all the damage and one Shaman is all it takes to end the game.
E-Tron: 50% - Its not a fun matchup and whoever develops their mana the best wins, generally speaking.
Titanshift: ~25-30% - It's almost impossible to win game 1's outside of them stumbling, game 2 you have access to some Thoughtseize which occasionally buys time for you to win. Either way, not one you want to run into.
Affinity: 40% - Win the die roll. It's critically important in game 1. Game 2/3, whoever draws their sweeper generally wins, however they're a turn faster so the onus is on us to kill their stuff.
Burn: 60+% - Its very difficult to lose outside of 2+ Searing Blazes. I'm often willing to take ~8 damage off Eidolons.
UW Control: 45% - I've revised my stance. I used to think we were 50:50 but now I think we're pretty firmly underdogs. However, its still incredibly winnable if you're crafty and know the matchup well.
Abzan Coco: 50% - Honestly, this one used to be favoured but now its 50:50. They combo off, they win. Most other games, they lose. It's a very non interactive matchup but we usually have enough time to kill them.
Eldrazi and Taxes: 60+% - They're screwed. They TKS us while we have an empty hand. We go wider and go bigger. Effectively a bye.
RG Ponza: ??? - Haven't played against it enough to discern a percentage. However, I do feel like we're 50:50 because they have Angers, but we have ways to play around their land hate. Seems very dicey but winnable if they can't control our board.
I'll leave someone who plays Vizier to give you the percentages but I'll be honest - percentages are not the reason to play the deck. You either have an affinity with it or you don't. It's that simple. I can only assume you're asking because you're interested.
My leading advice to people that ask me "Hey, you seem to be having a ton of fun, should I play Elves?" is always "Don't play Elves, its misery incarnate." If I didn't love the archetype to the point of writing articles/streaming/making videos on it, I likely would never play it. Its a labour of love.
Here is the article, but I think I'm in the wrong forum
Yes the deck depends on getting Intruder Alarm AND Beck. And Heritage Druid to a degree, but I was hoping adding Voyaging Satyr or Kiora's Follower along with some blue scry/control might be able to make it more consistent. I will jump forums, sorry I'm just really excited.
...For this reason I thought, doesn't the Vizier combo give us a way to win games we otherwise couldn't win and turn some uninteractive MUs like Valakut and ETron into positive MUs, or at least winnable?
Also, I have another question: why E Tron only 50%? I thought we were favored. We should be faster and just overrun them, no?
GW for the most part still has teething problems with Valakut, but you gain a ton of percentage against the non interactive decks skyrocket to a decent percentage due to the combo factor.
As for E-Tron, we were favoured during Eldrazi Winter but the additional payoff/sweeper in Ballista has really turned the tides in their favour, be it as a 2 mana Gutshot on the play or as a 4/4 machine gun. The flexibility and resilience of the card is a very real kick in the balls.
So as someone who's stayed loyal to the GB/Shaman/Lead plan despite the rise of the Vizier combo, I thought I'd share the list that has served me very well (3-1, 3-0, 3-1, and 3-0 in recent weeks) at my little LGS:
Took down Izzet Control, Boros Burn, and Jund Shadow last night. Only won once with Ezuri pumps (and even then it was just tapping five lands and swinging with two dudes after grinding out early damage). Going off with Ezuri is definitely a Plan B in this setup. Nettle Sentinel, Scooze, Shaman, and Lead the Stampede were the MVP cards.
I'm considering cutting a Visionary for a third Sentinel. Sentinel has overperformed lately, but Visionary is undeniably nice in the more attrition-based GB build. I could cut Elves of Deep Shadow, but playing a ninth noncreature spell makes me want a ninth mana dork. The one-of flex slots filled by Scooze and Rec Sage have paid dividends, so I don't want to trim those. Any thoughts?
I'm also curious as to any glaring omissions people see in my sideboard. This is pretty well tuned for my local meta, but in an unknown field, am I missing anything obvious? Thanks!
I've played against Grixis Shadow twice, alot of UWX control, one or two goblin players, and one or two affinity players one titanshift and one burn player. Lost to UWR after 2x Helix, Anger, Cryptic, Verdict
So as someone who's stayed loyal to the GB/Shaman/Lead plan despite the rise of the Vizier combo, I thought I'd share the list that has served me very well (3-1, 3-0, 3-1, and 3-0 in recent weeks) at my little LGS:
Took down Izzet Control, Boros Burn, and Jund Shadow last night. Only won once with Ezuri pumps (and even then it was just tapping five lands and swinging with two dudes after grinding out early damage). Going off with Ezuri is definitely a Plan B in this setup. Nettle Sentinel, Scooze, Shaman, and Lead the Stampede were the MVP cards.
I'm considering cutting a Visionary for a third Sentinel. Sentinel has overperformed lately, but Visionary is undeniably nice in the more attrition-based GB build. I could cut Elves of Deep Shadow, but playing a ninth noncreature spell makes me want a ninth mana dork. The one-of flex slots filled by Scooze and Rec Sage have paid dividends, so I don't want to trim those. Any thoughts?
I'm also curious as to any glaring omissions people see in my sideboard. This is pretty well tuned for my local meta, but in an unknown field, am I missing anything obvious? Thanks!
I lean hard on chording for Kataki against affinity, because rec sage is a little slow and fracturing gust has to be drawn. How do you find your robots MU? They're usually just a little faster than us, and if they get an early cranial on a vault skirge things can get very bad because our shamans suddenly have a lot more work to do. Its like swimming after a moving goal.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Interesting. It was odd to see her claim that Elves has a good matchup, but then lose to it. But that can happen with any matchup in Modern, as I know too well. I guess there's no explanation other than for me to "get good."
For reference, I was running Liam Lonergan's Invitational list nearly to the 75 (74 of 75 cards). I don't know if this changes anything. I realize that Elves with Shaman of the Pack is just better right now, so I just bought the 4 Gilt-Leaf Palace that I needed (kind of sucks because I sold the ones that I bought for $3 each to CFB for $10 each at a GP and now had to rebuy them at $12 each). At least I was able to bargain a bit, as most were around $15 right now.
I'm not sure whether GB is the best approach right now as GW has been the deck getting finishes. That might just be due to pilot strength (Martin Juza) or due to popularity. I think the GW might just be better in a non grindy meta while GB excels against GBx/DS. Different strokes for different folks.
Also as an addon, since people have been asking, my list for the PPTQ/this weekend and my list in the future when the Cradle comes out.
3 Forest
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Pendelhaven
1 Westvale Abbey // Orhmendahl, the Profane Prince
3 Chord of Calling
1 (last week) Relic of Progenitus / (this week) Dismember / Growing Rites of I_______ (when it comes out)
4 Collected Company
Sideboard (in flux):
3 Thoughtseize
/0-1 Shaper's Sanctuary (testing when it comes out, season to taste)
0-2 Relic of Progenitus (season to taste)
1-2 Dismember (1 if one is main, 2 otherwise)
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Lifecrafter's Bestiary
1 Reclamation Sage
1-2 Garruk Relentless // Garruk, the Veil-Cursed (season to taste)
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Nissa, Vital Force
0-1 Stain the Mind (season to taste)
0-1 Thragtusk (season to taste)
(Had to not use deck tags cause new cards and brackets)
I lean hard on chording for Kataki against affinity, because rec sage is a little slow and fracturing gust has to be drawn. How do you find your robots MU? They're usually just a little faster than us, and if they get an early cranial on a vault skirge things can get very bad because our shamans suddenly have a lot more work to do. Its like swimming after a moving goal.
Affinity is definitely a matchup that gets worse on the GB Shaman build relative to GW Vizier. Plating is without a doubt the priority target for my one maindeck Rec Sage, which can help scrape out a win G1. I would say the matchup is slightly unfavorable for my build.
Kataki is a great hoser for sure. Philosophically, I'm opposed to including cards that can't be hardcast (unless I happen upon a Canopy), so I'd probably include a second Gust before Kataki. If only Chord could search your hand along with your library!
I just finished building this deck on MTGO this week and I'm having a blast so far, even if I'm losing more than I'd like. Are there any streamers that run Elves often, or is there a list of VODs that have gameplay and commentary? I'm looking for any resource to learn.
I've done a few dummy runs, in a version that plays pact instead of chord. The advantage there is that you effectively have 8 heritage druids in your deck for that opening splurge on turn 2 (and if you've drawn it, pact can be nettle sentinels 5-8 or ezuri/craterhoof for the turn 3 kill).
I'm less keen on the new card in the chord version of the deck, because I feel like as a card it favours the more legacy-esque method of storming out, and more cantrips elves to abuse the copious amounts of mana. As a result, it slots very amicably into my version running 3x coiling oracles alongside the 4x visionaries. The cantrips aren't just there to booster against discard decks anymore, they are there to storm out in a single turn.
Anyway results to follow. The cards won't actually arrive in the post for a few days yet, but I've been tying things out with proxies in the meantime. Has worked well so far every time I've drawn it (but critically that doesn't mean there aren't better options in that slot)
I just finished building this deck on MTGO this week and I'm having a blast so far, even if I'm losing more than I'd like. Are there any streamers that run Elves often, or is there a list of VODs that have gameplay and commentary? I'm looking for any resource to learn.
Both VIPOwl and myself stream infrequently, although I should be getting back to schedule soon. We both stream at ungodly Australian times though, and I happen to be re-learning how to play GW (being a long time GB pilot and aficionado) so it'll be sloppy but at least we can learn together!
As of next week (due to Daylight Savings) it'll be streaming (assuming no ISP meltdowns!):
1830 AEDT // 0030 PDT // 0330 EDT // 0830 BST Tuesday/Thursday
1000 AEDT // 1600 PDT // 1900 EDT // 0000 BST One of the weekend days, usually! (Saturday this time around, but I'll keep it updated on twitch.tv/syreal_)
@Larrie:
Any grindy-non Jeskai matchup, the Garruk's overperform. Its a card that both VIP and myself have been testing extensively after I got him on board, and he's liked it too.
@Larrie:
Any grindy-non Jeskai matchup, the Garruk's overperform. Its a card that both VIP and myself have been testing extensively after I got him on board, and he's liked it too.
Awesome tech! Gonna try it for this week.
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That list is relatively stock. Beck Elves never got popular because it pushes the deck well into the combo variant and Beck is not Glimpse. Not even close.
Creature (34)
4x Devoted Druid
4x Dwynen's Elite
4x Elvish Archdruid
1x Elvish Mystic
4x Elvish Visionary
1x Eternal Witness
3x Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4x Heritage Druid
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Nettle Sentinel
1x Vizier of Remedies
Land (18)
2x Cavern of Souls
3x Forest
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Pendelhaven
4x Razorverge Thicket
1x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
Instant (8)
4x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
The major deviation from most lists is that I run 4 Visionary and 1 Mystic since I feel that drawing into gas and placing a body down is preferable to turn 1 mana dork 6-8. I also run an EWitness over one Ezuri since it helps win some MUs with its value. Any insight regarding this that I might not be aware of?
Also, Pendelhaven seems underwhelming most of the time. Im also considering moving in Abbey over Nythkos, but not sure if a win-con is preferred to an enabler (I don't want two colorless sources). I'm running two caverns because I only own 2 on paper and wanted to feel it out. Is 2 enough?
Anyone have anything to say about the manabase?
With the absence of Shaman of the Pack, Ezuri is THE win condition. Infinite mana does nothing without Ezuri so I would strongly considering running 4 in the GW version of elves. I would keep in Eternal Witness too, and consider cutting something like a Nettle Sentinel or the Visionary left over from putting back in the missing 3 Mystic.
Pendelhaven may not be relevant in a lot of matchups, but we get to run it for free. The only reason not to run Pendelhaven is if you're worried about Blood Moon and in that case just replace it with a forest. Abbey vs Nykthos is a toss up. Some decks just lose to a flipped Abbey and Nykthos may help you go off a turn earlier so you can't go wrong with either one of those. 2 Caverns is fine. There aren't many counters in the meta right now for it to be spectacular so it will primarily be just another green source for your elves or white if you need to name another creature type, but it's another utility land that we get to run without much of a downside.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
GDS: 60% - You're definitely favoured, they do almost all the damage and one Shaman is all it takes to end the game.
E-Tron: 50% - Its not a fun matchup and whoever develops their mana the best wins, generally speaking.
Titanshift: ~25-30% - It's almost impossible to win game 1's outside of them stumbling, game 2 you have access to some Thoughtseize which occasionally buys time for you to win. Either way, not one you want to run into.
Affinity: 40% - Win the die roll. It's critically important in game 1. Game 2/3, whoever draws their sweeper generally wins, however they're a turn faster so the onus is on us to kill their stuff.
Burn: 60+% - Its very difficult to lose outside of 2+ Searing Blazes. I'm often willing to take ~8 damage off Eidolons.
UW Control: 45% - I've revised my stance. I used to think we were 50:50 but now I think we're pretty firmly underdogs. However, its still incredibly winnable if you're crafty and know the matchup well.
Abzan Coco: 50% - Honestly, this one used to be favoured but now its 50:50. They combo off, they win. Most other games, they lose. It's a very non interactive matchup but we usually have enough time to kill them.
Eldrazi and Taxes: 60+% - They're screwed. They TKS us while we have an empty hand. We go wider and go bigger. Effectively a bye.
RG Ponza: ??? - Haven't played against it enough to discern a percentage. However, I do feel like we're 50:50 because they have Angers, but we have ways to play around their land hate. Seems very dicey but winnable if they can't control our board.
I'll leave someone who plays Vizier to give you the percentages but I'll be honest - percentages are not the reason to play the deck. You either have an affinity with it or you don't. It's that simple. I can only assume you're asking because you're interested.
My leading advice to people that ask me "Hey, you seem to be having a ton of fun, should I play Elves?" is always "Don't play Elves, its misery incarnate." If I didn't love the archetype to the point of writing articles/streaming/making videos on it, I likely would never play it. Its a labour of love.
He used Forbidden Orchard
Lands
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gavony Township
Creatures
3 Arbor Elf
4 Heritage Druid
4 Joraga Treespeaker
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
1 Ant Queen
1 Regal Force
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Beck // Call
3 Intruder Alarm
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Fecundity
1 Intruder Alarm
1 Viridian Shaman
3 Creeping Corrosion
Here is the article, but I think I'm in the wrong forum
Yes the deck depends on getting Intruder Alarm AND Beck. And Heritage Druid to a degree, but I was hoping adding Voyaging Satyr or Kiora's Follower along with some blue scry/control might be able to make it more consistent. I will jump forums, sorry I'm just really excited.
GW for the most part still has teething problems with Valakut, but you gain a ton of percentage against the non interactive decks skyrocket to a decent percentage due to the combo factor.
As for E-Tron, we were favoured during Eldrazi Winter but the additional payoff/sweeper in Ballista has really turned the tides in their favour, be it as a 2 mana Gutshot on the play or as a 4/4 machine gun. The flexibility and resilience of the card is a very real kick in the balls.
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
4 Blooming Marsh
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Pendelhaven
1 Westvale Abbey
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Heritage Druid
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Shaman of the Pack
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
2 Nettle Sentinel
2 Elvish Visionary
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
3 Lead the Stampede
2 Chord of Calling
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Reclamation Sage
2 Heroic Intervention
2 Duress
1 Elvish Champion
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Tajuru Preserver
1 Prowess of the Fair (will be Shaper's Sancutary when it drops)
Took down Izzet Control, Boros Burn, and Jund Shadow last night. Only won once with Ezuri pumps (and even then it was just tapping five lands and swinging with two dudes after grinding out early damage). Going off with Ezuri is definitely a Plan B in this setup. Nettle Sentinel, Scooze, Shaman, and Lead the Stampede were the MVP cards.
I'm considering cutting a Visionary for a third Sentinel. Sentinel has overperformed lately, but Visionary is undeniably nice in the more attrition-based GB build. I could cut Elves of Deep Shadow, but playing a ninth noncreature spell makes me want a ninth mana dork. The one-of flex slots filled by Scooze and Rec Sage have paid dividends, so I don't want to trim those. Any thoughts?
I'm also curious as to any glaring omissions people see in my sideboard. This is pretty well tuned for my local meta, but in an unknown field, am I missing anything obvious? Thanks!
1 Vizier of Remedies
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
3 Elvish Visionary
2 Dwynen's Elite
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Selfless Spirit
6 Forest
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Temple Garden
1 Westvale Abbey
4 Windswept Heath
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
3 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Essence Warden
1 Fiend Hunter
2 Fracturing Gust
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Rest in Peace
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Spellskite
I lean hard on chording for Kataki against affinity, because rec sage is a little slow and fracturing gust has to be drawn. How do you find your robots MU? They're usually just a little faster than us, and if they get an early cranial on a vault skirge things can get very bad because our shamans suddenly have a lot more work to do. Its like swimming after a moving goal.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Where do you put in the Garruks?
Affinity is definitely a matchup that gets worse on the GB Shaman build relative to GW Vizier. Plating is without a doubt the priority target for my one maindeck Rec Sage, which can help scrape out a win G1. I would say the matchup is slightly unfavorable for my build.
Kataki is a great hoser for sure. Philosophically, I'm opposed to including cards that can't be hardcast (unless I happen upon a Canopy), so I'd probably include a second Gust before Kataki. If only Chord could search your hand along with your library!
I've done a few dummy runs, in a version that plays pact instead of chord. The advantage there is that you effectively have 8 heritage druids in your deck for that opening splurge on turn 2 (and if you've drawn it, pact can be nettle sentinels 5-8 or ezuri/craterhoof for the turn 3 kill).
I'm less keen on the new card in the chord version of the deck, because I feel like as a card it favours the more legacy-esque method of storming out, and more cantrips elves to abuse the copious amounts of mana. As a result, it slots very amicably into my version running 3x coiling oracles alongside the 4x visionaries. The cantrips aren't just there to booster against discard decks anymore, they are there to storm out in a single turn.
Anyway results to follow. The cards won't actually arrive in the post for a few days yet, but I've been tying things out with proxies in the meantime. Has worked well so far every time I've drawn it (but critically that doesn't mean there aren't better options in that slot)
Both VIPOwl and myself stream infrequently, although I should be getting back to schedule soon. We both stream at ungodly Australian times though, and I happen to be re-learning how to play GW (being a long time GB pilot and aficionado) so it'll be sloppy but at least we can learn together!
As of next week (due to Daylight Savings) it'll be streaming (assuming no ISP meltdowns!):
1830 AEDT // 0030 PDT // 0330 EDT // 0830 BST Tuesday/Thursday
1000 AEDT // 1600 PDT // 1900 EDT // 0000 BST One of the weekend days, usually! (Saturday this time around, but I'll keep it updated on twitch.tv/syreal_)
Any grindy-non Jeskai matchup, the Garruk's overperform. Its a card that both VIP and myself have been testing extensively after I got him on board, and he's liked it too.
Awesome tech! Gonna try it for this week.