Thoughts on Angelsong vs Pollen Lullaby for a UW build?
Back when pump infect was 10-13% of the meta (last fall) I was running 2 Angelsong main and 3 Pollen Lullaby in the side.
I tested many of the other fogs and settled on those two. The Angelsong was found to be main-boardable because if I ever found it was dead I could cycle it during their endstep and hope to hit a blind miracle.
The Pollen Lullaby won the sideboard slots because of its sheer effectiveness against robots (in addition to infect).
Nowadays with the current meta I am leaning a little more towards Riot Control for what it can also do for us against Scapeshift-Valakut. Or Angel's Grace because of what it can also do for us against Ad Nauseum.
But really it depends on what your local meta looks like. All of these different Fog options are very similar in overall power and effect, they just each come with a little extra side bonus. Your personal preference and your local meta should help push you into using some and not others.
Not sure if the Stony silence is worth 2 sb slots, it shines VS affinity and lantern control, maybe it helps a bit in ad nauseam, but maybe can make better use of those 2 slots. F/e, pollen lullaby also helps vs affinity and the other creature based decks. Maybe i could switch them for 1 Pollen lullaby and 1 Spell Pierce What do u think of it?
I'm somewhat suprised that this deck doesn't get more attention. Regardless of power level, it's incredibly fun to play. One of my friends let me borrow all of his setups of this deck (he's got a pure U version, UB/UB and UG) to muck about this weekend. After 10 games or so with each version I'm digging his UG setup enough to purchase what I'm missing to run it.
Admittedly one of the things I loved the most about this deck was having my opponent feel like they have the dominate board state and are closing in on the win for all my setup cards to run into chained turns that ends things quickly. Flipping the tables so fast was amusing.
Though I did find super fast things to be an issue. A good starting hand for Burn/Storm was a nightmare as was a good cycling hand for Living End. Anything a titch slower though was fair game.
Sorry for the ramble. I just wanted to say reading through this thread has been cool and I appriciate all the thoughts and ideas that have gone into things so far. Cheers!
OK guys I need a little help refining my sideboard. It's time to prep for the GP
I need the process to be iterative and logical, so every suggested change needs a good reason and I have to be covering a wide range of matchups. Also, thought needs to be put into how many cards I'm likely to side out in each matchup as well. In the past I've had too many cards for certain matchups and never used some of them.
Anyway here's the current board:
(I am running 3x path and 1x commandeer in the main instead of 4x remand)
OK guys I need a little help refining my sideboard. It's time to prep for the GP
I need the process to be iterative and logical, so every suggested change needs a good reason and I have to be covering a wide range of matchups. Also, thought needs to be put into how many cards I'm likely to side out in each matchup as well. In the past I've had too many cards for certain matchups and never used some of them.
Anyway here's the current board:
(I am running 3x path and 1x commandeer in the main instead of 4x remand)
Thanks in advance for your help sorting out my sideboard.
Couple of questions:
(1) What is your current boarding plan against the main match-ups (Death's Shadow, Control, Tron, Burn, other)? Which do you believe are weakest post-board?
(2) What are the match-ups you are most worried about with your current boarding plan?
(3) What do you think the meta will be at the GP? Do you expect any surprises?
I think I have just about everything in your list and can test a little on MTGO if you want additional help.
Though I'm still monkeying with it. Cryptic Commands would be nice as would Spell Snare. I had Howling Mine's in but giving my opponent the first extra draw was just irritating. We'll see if I regret that choice.
OK guys I need a little help refining my sideboard. It's time to prep for the GP
I need the process to be iterative and logical, so every suggested change needs a good reason and I have to be covering a wide range of matchups. Also, thought needs to be put into how many cards I'm likely to side out in each matchup as well. In the past I've had too many cards for certain matchups and never used some of them.
Anyway here's the current board:
(I am running 3x path and 1x commandeer in the main instead of 4x remand)
Thanks in advance for your help sorting out my sideboard.
I would -1 path -2 explosives - -1 chalice +2 leyline of sanctity +1 rest in peace +1 negate.
Since you already have some cards vs creature decks, that would benefit your games vs burn, discard, graveyard-based decks ( there are many of them around, and RIP hoses them all), and the negate as an aid vs control-counter decks ( since you have already cut the remands)
I think howling mines are better if running a full playset of gigadrowse. It can be tapped down so the opponent can't draw cards. Dictate is better if not using gigadrowse imo. I run a 4/2 split of mines to dictate when I run gigadrowse and vice versa without them.
Purk, I like that you run 11 warps, I use 2 PtW and one walk the aeons and found that it helps when faced with extraction on time warp. I've never had a problem getting PtW(for the win) when I go off well before I deck out with a few mines in play.
Leylines should be 4 or 0. If it's not in your opener it's to late because your already going to get your hand ripped apart from turn one on, if you mull down to get it your usually left with a bad hand that's slow to get going. Really it could be 2 more cryptics which in an unknown meta would be more useful than the leylines.
I agree with adding another RiP, for a chalice maybe..?Idk.
I think you need to keep explosives or have ratchet bomb to deal with weenies, in most cases it will buy you the time you need to go off or clear the way for a PtW beatdown.
I think timely and explosives kinda solves the same problem so timely? should be something else,maybe spreading seas in case of bloodmoon and as an offensive.
I'd also remove a Prarie stream for a plains because of moon which shuts down your paths and half your SB.
I really like narset transcendent if your splashing white, its first ability always finds a card that isn't a land so it's a one sided mine effect and, it's second ability pretty much insures you won't fizzle when you go off.
I'd pull a mine since it's a mine itself.
It also helps flip thing.
I don't think you need the path in your SB if your happy with the three in your main. Frees up a slot anyways.
Hope it helps and goodluck, hope you go all the way!
Cards that were best against death's shadow last night were chalice and leyline, with supreme verdict being great because it dodges stubborn denial/negate which many decks are running now.
Eldrazi tron is another deck in my crosshairs. Supreme verdict, thing in the ice are both good there. That's the matchup where the 4th path to exile was handy, but gigadrowse and exhaustion do a reasonable job of slowing things down so having those sweepers out of the board is decent.
Affinity- stony silence, explosives and thing in the ice is really good here. Probably wouldn't board in chalices?
Coco decks- supreme verdict, thing in the ice and rest in peace. I think we have a good matchup here anyway.
Dredge: rest in peace and thing in the ice.
Living end: chalices (shuts off their combo) and rest in peace
Burn: leyline and chalice, and thing in the ice (blocker)
Merfolk: explosives, supreme verdict, thing in the ice
Elves: explosives, supreme verdict, thing in the ice.
Storm: chalice, leyline, rest in peace, explosives
I think that's where I'm at. Tron is a decent matchup anyway.
Private Mod Note
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
It's worth a try. If I were to put it in, I'd actually go for more like 3x copies. Snaps are usually run at 2x, but since you can cast Noxious Revival for 2 life, it's far easier to cast. Even if your build doesn't have much G in it, you can still get away with playing it at the cost of leaving yourself open to aggro. Good Luck and tell us how it goes!
I was brainstorming some rogue Turns decks (well, more rogue than the usual...) and I wanted to share what I was thinking, see if anyone else has tried it before I go on a deep dive to nowhere.
The idea here is hand control via Inquisition of Kozilek, Raven's Crime, & Collective Brutality, until we play a Spellweaver Helix to imprint on a discarded (or used) turns piece. Still playing around with numbers; but I went UB instead of UR [flame jab and faithless looting] because an opponent playing any of those 1CmC sorceries would also net us a copy, figured it was more popular in the current meta. Just a thought that I am tempted to sleeve up.
Back when pump infect was 10-13% of the meta (last fall) I was running 2 Angelsong main and 3 Pollen Lullaby in the side.
I tested many of the other fogs and settled on those two. The Angelsong was found to be main-boardable because if I ever found it was dead I could cycle it during their endstep and hope to hit a blind miracle.
The Pollen Lullaby won the sideboard slots because of its sheer effectiveness against robots (in addition to infect).
Nowadays with the current meta I am leaning a little more towards Riot Control for what it can also do for us against Scapeshift-Valakut. Or Angel's Grace because of what it can also do for us against Ad Nauseum.
But really it depends on what your local meta looks like. All of these different Fog options are very similar in overall power and effect, they just each come with a little extra side bonus. Your personal preference and your local meta should help push you into using some and not others.
Uw Taking Turns
The Bad Moon
Small Mardu Midrange
Big Mardu Midrange
Grixis Waste Not Combo
Bw 8-Rack
Bw Midrange
Currently i have the following sideboard:
1 Comandeer
1 Pollen Lullaby
2 Thing in the ice
2 Negate
2 Stony silence
3 Rest in peace
4 Leyline of sanctity
Not sure if the Stony silence is worth 2 sb slots, it shines VS affinity and lantern control, maybe it helps a bit in ad nauseam, but maybe can make better use of those 2 slots. F/e, pollen lullaby also helps vs affinity and the other creature based decks. Maybe i could switch them for 1 Pollen lullaby and 1 Spell Pierce What do u think of it?
Spirits
It is something like Creeping Corrosion + Time Walk when playing against Robots or Lantern.
But its close to useless against traditional tron builds. Whereas Stony Silence is usually pretty good.
Uw Taking Turns
The Bad Moon
Small Mardu Midrange
Big Mardu Midrange
Grixis Waste Not Combo
Bw 8-Rack
Bw Midrange
Admittedly one of the things I loved the most about this deck was having my opponent feel like they have the dominate board state and are closing in on the win for all my setup cards to run into chained turns that ends things quickly. Flipping the tables so fast was amusing.
Though I did find super fast things to be an issue. A good starting hand for Burn/Storm was a nightmare as was a good cycling hand for Living End. Anything a titch slower though was fair game.
Sorry for the ramble. I just wanted to say reading through this thread has been cool and I appriciate all the thoughts and ideas that have gone into things so far. Cheers!
Modern: Storm
Legacy: ANT
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
Have a list?
I need the process to be iterative and logical, so every suggested change needs a good reason and I have to be covering a wide range of matchups. Also, thought needs to be put into how many cards I'm likely to side out in each matchup as well. In the past I've had too many cards for certain matchups and never used some of them.
Anyway here's the current board:
(I am running 3x path and 1x commandeer in the main instead of 4x remand)
Any thoughts?
Cards that could make the cut:
Supreme verdict
Ghostly prison
The maindeck is as follows (fairly stock)
4x gigadrowse
3x exhaustion
2x cryptic command
4x serum visions
3x howling mine
4x dictate of kruphix
3x part the waterveil
4x temporal mastery
3x path to exile
1x commandeer
4x flooded strand
9x island
1x mikokoro, center of the sea
1x inkmoth nexus
1x gemstone caverns
1x oboro, palace in the clouds
1x glacial fortress
1x hallowed fountain
1x mystic gate
3x prairie stream
Thanks in advance for your help sorting out my sideboard.
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
Couple of questions:
(1) What is your current boarding plan against the main match-ups (Death's Shadow, Control, Tron, Burn, other)? Which do you believe are weakest post-board?
(2) What are the match-ups you are most worried about with your current boarding plan?
(3) What do you think the meta will be at the GP? Do you expect any surprises?
I think I have just about everything in your list and can test a little on MTGO if you want additional help.
2 Faerie Conclave
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Breeding Pool
3 Botanical Sanctum
4 Forests
4 Island
2 Thing in the Ice
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Serum Visions
4 Time Warp
1 Walk the Aeons
2 Part the Waterveil
2 Temporal Mastery
3 Fog
3 Remand
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements
1 Garruk Wildcaller
4 Dictate of Kruphix
2 Mana Leak
Though I'm still monkeying with it. Cryptic Commands would be nice as would Spell Snare. I had Howling Mine's in but giving my opponent the first extra draw was just irritating. We'll see if I regret that choice.
Modern: Storm
Legacy: ANT
I would -1 path -2 explosives - -1 chalice +2 leyline of sanctity +1 rest in peace +1 negate.
Since you already have some cards vs creature decks, that would benefit your games vs burn, discard, graveyard-based decks ( there are many of them around, and RIP hoses them all), and the negate as an aid vs control-counter decks ( since you have already cut the remands)
Thats my humble suggestion. Good luck in the GP!
Spirits
Purk, I like that you run 11 warps, I use 2 PtW and one walk the aeons and found that it helps when faced with extraction on time warp. I've never had a problem getting PtW(for the win) when I go off well before I deck out with a few mines in play.
Leylines should be 4 or 0. If it's not in your opener it's to late because your already going to get your hand ripped apart from turn one on, if you mull down to get it your usually left with a bad hand that's slow to get going. Really it could be 2 more cryptics which in an unknown meta would be more useful than the leylines.
I agree with adding another RiP, for a chalice maybe..?Idk.
I think you need to keep explosives or have ratchet bomb to deal with weenies, in most cases it will buy you the time you need to go off or clear the way for a PtW beatdown.
I think timely and explosives kinda solves the same problem so timely? should be something else,maybe spreading seas in case of bloodmoon and as an offensive.
I'd also remove a Prarie stream for a plains because of moon which shuts down your paths and half your SB.
I really like narset transcendent if your splashing white, its first ability always finds a card that isn't a land so it's a one sided mine effect and, it's second ability pretty much insures you won't fizzle when you go off.
I'd pull a mine since it's a mine itself.
It also helps flip thing.
I don't think you need the path in your SB if your happy with the three in your main. Frees up a slot anyways.
Hope it helps and goodluck, hope you go all the way!
I did some testing against grixis shadow last night and ended up tweaking further.
I took on board some of your comments and I've ended up with this:
Cards that were best against death's shadow last night were chalice and leyline, with supreme verdict being great because it dodges stubborn denial/negate which many decks are running now.
Eldrazi tron is another deck in my crosshairs. Supreme verdict, thing in the ice are both good there. That's the matchup where the 4th path to exile was handy, but gigadrowse and exhaustion do a reasonable job of slowing things down so having those sweepers out of the board is decent.
Affinity- stony silence, explosives and thing in the ice is really good here. Probably wouldn't board in chalices?
Coco decks- supreme verdict, thing in the ice and rest in peace. I think we have a good matchup here anyway.
Dredge: rest in peace and thing in the ice.
Living end: chalices (shuts off their combo) and rest in peace
Burn: leyline and chalice, and thing in the ice (blocker)
Merfolk: explosives, supreme verdict, thing in the ice
Elves: explosives, supreme verdict, thing in the ice.
Storm: chalice, leyline, rest in peace, explosives
I think that's where I'm at. Tron is a decent matchup anyway.
Spirits
It's worth a try. If I were to put it in, I'd actually go for more like 3x copies. Snaps are usually run at 2x, but since you can cast Noxious Revival for 2 life, it's far easier to cast. Even if your build doesn't have much G in it, you can still get away with playing it at the cost of leaving yourself open to aggro. Good Luck and tell us how it goes!
4x Collective Brutality
3x Exhaustion
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Mystic Speculation
4x Raven's Crime
2x Savor the Moment
4x Serum Visions
4x Time Warp
4x Darkslick Shores
3x Gemstone Caverns
4x Island
3x Marsh Flats
4x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
3x Gifts Ungiven
Artifact (4)
4x Spellweaver Helix
Planeswalker (2)
2x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
The idea here is hand control via Inquisition of Kozilek, Raven's Crime, & Collective Brutality, until we play a Spellweaver Helix to imprint on a discarded (or used) turns piece. Still playing around with numbers; but I went UB instead of UR [flame jab and faithless looting] because an opponent playing any of those 1CmC sorceries would also net us a copy, figured it was more popular in the current meta. Just a thought that I am tempted to sleeve up.
RBW Mardu Pyro
X Eldrazi
Pauper:
X Affinity
G Stompy