Nope. I'm looking for a card like Anticipate in Jund colors. I'm sure it will have some horrible drawback but the drawbacks aren't relevant to me right now.
Nope. I'm looking for a card like Anticipate in Jund colors. I'm sure it will have some horrible drawback but the drawbacks aren't relevant to me right now.
That's why I like Grim Flayer. It lets you dig for the right cards and toss cards that don't help the current board state. The only time dealing combat damage becomes difficult is against removal heavy decks, in which case you want a higher threat density anyway.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The worst part isn't the pain, or the smell, or even the fear of death. It's hearing the clatter of bone on stone and knowing the bones are yours."BRG
I've personally been enjoying pretty traditional Jund lately. It's still extremely strong and I feel like it's fast clock (as compared ot Abzan) wins me a LOT of games I otherwise wouldn't be. (I've not been big on Abzan lately).
One of the things I am going to be working on this week is coming up with a Jund variant of the Abzan Traverse lists that have been running around. I really like the 19 land curve of them and Jund has always been the better Bob deck. Since it'll have Flayers, Goyfs, Bobs and Scooze I will also be running 2-3 Claim//Fame to see how I like it.
Ok guys, did a lot of testing last night with the Jund Traverse version I mentioned in my post from yesterday. Here is a brief synopsis of the list and thought process so far that's gone into it that I wrote for my testing group.
The mindset was to make a Traverse/Delirium list much like the 19-land Abzan lists that have been running around but I wanted to run Jund as it is the better shell for running Dark Confidant. This also let me test out the new Claim // Fame. For the sake of testing, I ran a full suite of 3 instead of 2 and 1 K. Command like I initially had planned. It was great essentially every single time I cast it and I never missed it being a K. Command. The card is seriously bonkers in this shell. Onto the list:
All in all a lot of things are still flexible as is pretty typical with most GBx lists. I would like to put a Reclamation Sage somewhere in the SB since it can be Traversed. I am still undecided on that Goblin Dark Dweller slot in the Sideboard as well. I want that slot to be something that helps in longer grindier games as a great traverse target. GDD is great for that since you can instantly flash back Traverse to go get another fatty and would love to get something "immune" to Fatal Push if possible. The other options I can think of are:
Tireless Tracker: Was great in Traditional Jund for me before but I feel like we just have too few lands here and the other options in this list are likely better, but he's worth a mention.
Thundermaw Hellkite: I've seen an uptick in Thundermaw's in Jund sideboards as a way to fight Lingering Souls as well as being a big hasty flier which is good against Death Shadow.
Stormbreath Dragon: Similar reasonings to Thundermaw, doesn't kill Lingering Soul type fliers and has 1 less P/T but does come with pro white which can be relevant.
Ishkanah, Graf Widow: I tested Ishkanah last week in Abzan and this card was truly insane in every game I cast it. 4 bodies for 5 mana is nothing to be trifled with.
Silvermoon Cavalier: This is mainly a small thought because of how busted it is against removal heavy decks. Without Bolt running around this is going to stick around in many of those matchups and can make things exceedingly awkward. It doesn't close out quickly though which is part of the reason we are playing Jund over Abzan.
Liliana, the Last Hope: I feel like this Lili has a home somewhere in the 75 as a 1x but haven't quite figured out where I want her just yet. Currently I am thinking of that second Anathemancer slot.
Those are the options I have considered so far for that Goblin Dark Dweller's slot in the Sideboard. If yall have other recommendations let me know.
Now to talk about the elephant in the room (well zombie wizard but still). Anathemancer. So part of my brewing process is I wanted to find good tutorable creatures in red that could either act as silver bullets or help in certain matchups. My initial thought process to fight big mana decks was Magus of the Moon. The problem with this though is that on only 19 lands, there is no room for the extra basics to feel comfortable running a Blood Moon plan without putting a HUGE damper on my own plan. Too much so I think. That's where Anathemancer steps in. The thought process and plan is that I am going to be bringing him in anytime I feel like I can or should be the beatdown deck in the matchup. He should hit for 2-5 damage when he comes down in most of those matchups and the fact it's damage means it can be redirected to planeswalkers if those are an issue (which they can sometimes be). I never thought I would use his Unearth ability but it did come up in testing during games that went long and almost always ended the game. It's possible I trim down to 1 in the board after a while but like with Claim // Fame, I wanted to ensure it came up often enough so I could make a determination if I liked it.
Anyway, this is likely within a card or two I plan to play for the PPTQs coming up this weekend. It felt smooth as butter and reasonably well positioned for my local metagame.
Three Claim // Fame and zero Kolaghan's Command seems off.
So I said it in the post, I ran 3 Claim//Fame for testing so that I could identify how much I liked the card. I am actually on a 2:1 split most likely in the long run. That being said, I didn't miss Kommand at all during testing. Most of the time I'm using it to rebuy creatures anyway and since all but 1 creature is 2 cmc, Claim works better since you can then give the creature haste if you need or want to. Claim//Fame also makes opposing Thoughtseize decisions pretty awkward. Can't take that Tarmogoyf if I have a Claim in hand, if I you take the Claim I get the Goyf anyway.
Depends on the creature but I've definitely considered it. No idea the slot it'd replace though. I feel like Huntmaster is extremely good and wouldn't mind a 2nd either. This deck has 7 cards currently that let you cast 2 spells in turn off a single card draw which is big game to keep Huntmaster flipping (3 Claim // Fame and 4 Traverse). I've also considered Big Game Hunter instead of a removal spell.
Based off of what I just wrote, would you take Jund to an open field?
Absolutely. One factor that you are missing here is passion, experience, skill and joy, which can shake those numbers up a bit. Not that unfavourable matchups get favourable but I like it how Willy Edel said: Its better to take 100 % of a 70 % deck than 70 % of a 100 % deck. And Jund will always have my 100 % for sure. I just love that deck. I am in strong belief that you can pilot the deck in such a way to get close to 50/50 for every matchup right now and probably generally (besides Tron). And thats what I love about this deck. Figuring out the perfect configuration and using skill and experience to squeeze out wins. It might be just me but I don't like decks which just prey on certain decks absolutely hard (like Tron on us) because I feel there is not much skill involved in such a case. I want to win because I played well not because the matchup was good (of course if a deck is just bad than the deck is bad, not trying to say to playing worse decks on purpose). Maybe you want to play magic differently, but I feel with Jund you really want to fight for you wins and thats what keeps me interested and motivated. Its challanging.
This is how I feel as well and why I tend to hover around the Midrange decks in Modern. I'd rather have a field of near 50/50s then play a deck that has equal number 80/20s and 20/80s. I also dislike playing decks that have to play "dodge the hate" like Affinity and Dredge.
@Exatraz:
I've also been playing a lot of Abzan Traverse for the past few weeks and I like it a lot but it suffers from the same issues Abzan always does which you mentioned, too : it always feels so.darn.slow. I played a lot of Grim Flayer jund builds since he was printed and the Traverse builds highlighted my frustrations w him too - when you have delirium he's great but when you don't and you can't connect w your 2/2 man, is he dissapointing.
Anyway,I've been kicking around a similar thought on taking the 19 land traverse shell and porting it to Jund. I like where you are starting from; here's some feedback / thoughts:
* Many, many times I look @ the yard and see 3 types - typically these were from a fetchland, a discard spell/traverse, and an artifact (bauble). I don't know how - aside from the obvious like Street Wraith or Tarfire or pitching more things to Collective Brutality to get Delirium online faster or to recover it after some GY hate. In a nutshell - delirium is a frustrating mechanic at times. Are you finding that with only 2 Nihil Spellbomb you get things online quick enough?
* I would hesitate on Ishkanah only because adding another card w delirium on it would bug me, but she's quite good. I could also see just putting Pia and Kiran Nalaar in there since its a bit less on the mana, also gets you multiple (flying) bodies, and throwing thopters are peoples heads is always a fun time.
* If you are set on running a 5 drop in the board, I would lean toward whatever haste dragon you prefer. This build wants to close a game out quickly; as fun as casting GDD and using it to recast traverse / claim//fame etc seems, I think the haste would matter more to me here. Hard to say without playing this list, really.
* I would just run a single Raging Ravine and something like a Ghost Quarter or 2 Raging Ravine over the Treetop Village. I always find the 3/3 to be a little anemic when it could just be a ravine and if my land comes in tapped I prefer having more than a single color mana.
* A friend of mine has been high on Anathemancer forever; your reasoning is in-line with some of the arguments he has, too. I do know that I hate Fulminator Mage with a passion and have been trying to find a different angle against Tron for years. Maybe I'll finally bite the bullet and give it a shot. Again, since a build like this wants to end the game faster perhaps being able to just do that extra 3-6 dmg to the head (or snipe Ugin) is better than other options.
@Exatraz:
I've also been playing a lot of Abzan Traverse for the past few weeks and I like it a lot but it suffers from the same issues Abzan always does which you mentioned, too : it always feels so.darn.slow. I played a lot of Grim Flayer jund builds since he was printed and the Traverse builds highlighted my frustrations w him too - when you have delirium he's great but when you don't and you can't connect w your 2/2 man, is he dissapointing.
Anyway,I've been kicking around a similar thought on taking the 19 land traverse shell and porting it to Jund. I like where you are starting from; here's some feedback / thoughts:
* Many, many times I look @ the yard and see 3 types - typically these were from a fetchland, a discard spell/traverse, and an artifact (bauble). I don't know how - aside from the obvious like Street Wraith or Tarfire or pitching more things to Collective Brutality to get Delirium online faster or to recover it after some GY hate. In a nutshell - delirium is a frustrating mechanic at times. Are you finding that with only 2 Nihil Spellbomb you get things online quick enough?
* I would hesitate on Ishkanah only because adding another card w delirium on it would bug me, but she's quite good. I could also see just putting Pia and Kiran Nalaar in there since its a bit less on the mana, also gets you multiple (flying) bodies, and throwing thopters are peoples heads is always a fun time.
* If you are set on running a 5 drop in the board, I would lean toward whatever haste dragon you prefer. This build wants to close a game out quickly; as fun as casting GDD and using it to recast traverse / claim//fame etc seems, I think the haste would matter more to me here. Hard to say without playing this list, really.
* I would just run a single Raging Ravine and something like a Ghost Quarter or 2 Raging Ravine over the Treetop Village. I always find the 3/3 to be a little anemic when it could just be a ravine and if my land comes in tapped I prefer having more than a single color mana.
* A friend of mine has been high on Anathemancer forever; your reasoning is in-line with some of the arguments he has, too. I do know that I hate Fulminator Mage with a passion and have been trying to find a different angle against Tron for years. Maybe I'll finally bite the bullet and give it a shot. Again, since a build like this wants to end the game faster perhaps being able to just do that extra 3-6 dmg to the head (or snipe Ugin) is better than other options.
I'll respond in order to each paragraph, thank you for a detailed response.
The Spellbombs have been enough for me so far. Typically I've been getting Creature/Land/Instant/Sorcery fairly easily. Occasionally a Lili will hit the bin and offset a little bit. I despise Bauble with a HUGE passion. It just doesn't do anything. Spellbomb at least insulates me against opposing GY decks a little bit and there is enough of those running around that I've never felt too bad about it. If I feel super desperate to add more "types" I might look into Brain Maggot or Bitterblossom next. I definitely look to lean on Goyf first and if my opponent can answer it, I follow up with Flayer. In fact most of the time against removal heavy decks or decks with blockers for Flayer I lead Dark Confidant, Goyf, Flayer.
I agree with Ishkanah to an extent but again, I haven't had many issues. Pia and Kiran I've thought about but one of my goals with that Goblin Dark Dwellers slot is having something that is good against removal heavy decks and part of that is dodging Fatal Push. Mom and Pop do that a bit so it's definitely a consideration but normally Huntmaster just has higher upside IMO. Additionally that is why initially I chose GDD though was for the matchups (like midrange mirrors or vs Death Shadow) where things can get grindy, getting 2 creatures is pretty key. Remember with GDD that when you choose Claim // Fame, you use either Claim or Fame so it can be a 6 power haste menace creature.
On the manlands, I definitely wanted 2 manlands but being on 19 lands, I wasn't confident we could always get to 5 mana for Ravine and while 3 power is a bit anemic, it does have Trample and an extremely cheap activation cost which has been relevant. I don't like GQ because adding colorless to the manabase seems risky but I could see double Ravine (admittedly getting lands hasn't been as much an issue as I initially thought).
So I still love Fulminator Mage as it's just a great card but I agree. I ALSO want to be clocking my opponent. So far one of the biggest boons for me about Anathemancer is I've been able to bring it in against both Death Shadow/Midrange/Control matches as well as against Tron. All those decks don't run a ton of basics usually so it just becomes a powerhouse for pushing through the last chunks of damage, sniping off planeswalkers and worst case chump blocking to save some damage (against TKS and the like).
All in all the list is far from set in stone but the deck felt infinitely better than the Abzan lists I was testing due to the speed and versatility of the threats Jund has to offer. Not ramping my opponent with Path is also nice and been worth the additional mana for terminate. The other thing I will note about Claim // Fame is I've often so far been able to use it early to rebuy a threat and play removal in the same turn and get to wait on the Fame portion til it's relevant. It's made for some ridiculously tough decisions for my opponents as they have to attack knowing I could have a cheap huge hastey attacker cracking back. Also it quickly solves the Goyf on Goyf staredown.
The goal I had with playing this list is to try and run as few bad cards as possible. Every card is arguably good against against a good portion of the metagame and with so few lands, that makes our top decks insane.
Please do! Like with essentially all GBx decks, there is a ton of room to monkey with the ratios and numbers to suit personal preference as well as metagame.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I know someone at my local who plays with a bitter-blossom to deal with all these midrange and control decks
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
You can also play Street Wraith
Gus
One of the things I am going to be working on this week is coming up with a Jund variant of the Abzan Traverse lists that have been running around. I really like the 19 land curve of them and Jund has always been the better Bob deck. Since it'll have Flayers, Goyfs, Bobs and Scooze I will also be running 2-3 Claim//Fame to see how I like it.
The mindset was to make a Traverse/Delirium list much like the 19-land Abzan lists that have been running around but I wanted to run Jund as it is the better shell for running Dark Confidant. This also let me test out the new Claim // Fame. For the sake of testing, I ran a full suite of 3 instead of 2 and 1 K. Command like I initially had planned. It was great essentially every single time I cast it and I never missed it being a K. Command. The card is seriously bonkers in this shell. Onto the list:
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Grim Flayer
3x Dark Confidant
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
Spells(22)[S:14 I:8]:
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
4x Fatal Push
3x Terminate
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
3x Claim // Fame
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Liliana of the Veil
Artifact(2):
2x Nihil Spellbomb
Lands(19):
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Blackcleave Cliffs
2x Overgrown Tomb
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Stomping Ground
1x Blood Crypt
1x Treetop Village
1x Raging Ravine
2x Collective Brutality
2x Fulminator Mage
2x Anathemancer
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Damnation
1x Shatterstorm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Goblin Dark Dwellers
1x Kolaghan's Command
All in all a lot of things are still flexible as is pretty typical with most GBx lists. I would like to put a Reclamation Sage somewhere in the SB since it can be Traversed. I am still undecided on that Goblin Dark Dweller slot in the Sideboard as well. I want that slot to be something that helps in longer grindier games as a great traverse target. GDD is great for that since you can instantly flash back Traverse to go get another fatty and would love to get something "immune" to Fatal Push if possible. The other options I can think of are:
Tireless Tracker: Was great in Traditional Jund for me before but I feel like we just have too few lands here and the other options in this list are likely better, but he's worth a mention.
Thundermaw Hellkite: I've seen an uptick in Thundermaw's in Jund sideboards as a way to fight Lingering Souls as well as being a big hasty flier which is good against Death Shadow.
Stormbreath Dragon: Similar reasonings to Thundermaw, doesn't kill Lingering Soul type fliers and has 1 less P/T but does come with pro white which can be relevant.
Ishkanah, Graf Widow: I tested Ishkanah last week in Abzan and this card was truly insane in every game I cast it. 4 bodies for 5 mana is nothing to be trifled with.
Silvermoon Cavalier: This is mainly a small thought because of how busted it is against removal heavy decks. Without Bolt running around this is going to stick around in many of those matchups and can make things exceedingly awkward. It doesn't close out quickly though which is part of the reason we are playing Jund over Abzan.
Liliana, the Last Hope: I feel like this Lili has a home somewhere in the 75 as a 1x but haven't quite figured out where I want her just yet. Currently I am thinking of that second Anathemancer slot.
Those are the options I have considered so far for that Goblin Dark Dweller's slot in the Sideboard. If yall have other recommendations let me know.
Now to talk about the elephant in the room (well zombie wizard but still). Anathemancer. So part of my brewing process is I wanted to find good tutorable creatures in red that could either act as silver bullets or help in certain matchups. My initial thought process to fight big mana decks was Magus of the Moon. The problem with this though is that on only 19 lands, there is no room for the extra basics to feel comfortable running a Blood Moon plan without putting a HUGE damper on my own plan. Too much so I think. That's where Anathemancer steps in. The thought process and plan is that I am going to be bringing him in anytime I feel like I can or should be the beatdown deck in the matchup. He should hit for 2-5 damage when he comes down in most of those matchups and the fact it's damage means it can be redirected to planeswalkers if those are an issue (which they can sometimes be). I never thought I would use his Unearth ability but it did come up in testing during games that went long and almost always ended the game. It's possible I trim down to 1 in the board after a while but like with Claim // Fame, I wanted to ensure it came up often enough so I could make a determination if I liked it.
Anyway, this is likely within a card or two I plan to play for the PPTQs coming up this weekend. It felt smooth as butter and reasonably well positioned for my local metagame.
So I said it in the post, I ran 3 Claim//Fame for testing so that I could identify how much I liked the card. I am actually on a 2:1 split most likely in the long run. That being said, I didn't miss Kommand at all during testing. Most of the time I'm using it to rebuy creatures anyway and since all but 1 creature is 2 cmc, Claim works better since you can then give the creature haste if you need or want to. Claim//Fame also makes opposing Thoughtseize decisions pretty awkward. Can't take that Tarmogoyf if I have a Claim in hand, if I you take the Claim I get the Goyf anyway.
Absolutely. One factor that you are missing here is passion, experience, skill and joy, which can shake those numbers up a bit. Not that unfavourable matchups get favourable but I like it how Willy Edel said: Its better to take 100 % of a 70 % deck than 70 % of a 100 % deck. And Jund will always have my 100 % for sure. I just love that deck. I am in strong belief that you can pilot the deck in such a way to get close to 50/50 for every matchup right now and probably generally (besides Tron). And thats what I love about this deck. Figuring out the perfect configuration and using skill and experience to squeeze out wins. It might be just me but I don't like decks which just prey on certain decks absolutely hard (like Tron on us) because I feel there is not much skill involved in such a case. I want to win because I played well not because the matchup was good (of course if a deck is just bad than the deck is bad, not trying to say to playing worse decks on purpose). Maybe you want to play magic differently, but I feel with Jund you really want to fight for you wins and thats what keeps me interested and motivated. Its challanging.
I've also been playing a lot of Abzan Traverse for the past few weeks and I like it a lot but it suffers from the same issues Abzan always does which you mentioned, too : it always feels so.darn.slow. I played a lot of Grim Flayer jund builds since he was printed and the Traverse builds highlighted my frustrations w him too - when you have delirium he's great but when you don't and you can't connect w your 2/2 man, is he dissapointing.
Anyway,I've been kicking around a similar thought on taking the 19 land traverse shell and porting it to Jund. I like where you are starting from; here's some feedback / thoughts:
* Many, many times I look @ the yard and see 3 types - typically these were from a fetchland, a discard spell/traverse, and an artifact (bauble). I don't know how - aside from the obvious like Street Wraith or Tarfire or pitching more things to Collective Brutality to get Delirium online faster or to recover it after some GY hate. In a nutshell - delirium is a frustrating mechanic at times. Are you finding that with only 2 Nihil Spellbomb you get things online quick enough?
* I would hesitate on Ishkanah only because adding another card w delirium on it would bug me, but she's quite good. I could also see just putting Pia and Kiran Nalaar in there since its a bit less on the mana, also gets you multiple (flying) bodies, and throwing thopters are peoples heads is always a fun time.
* If you are set on running a 5 drop in the board, I would lean toward whatever haste dragon you prefer. This build wants to close a game out quickly; as fun as casting GDD and using it to recast traverse / claim//fame etc seems, I think the haste would matter more to me here. Hard to say without playing this list, really.
* I would just run a single Raging Ravine and something like a Ghost Quarter or 2 Raging Ravine over the Treetop Village. I always find the 3/3 to be a little anemic when it could just be a ravine and if my land comes in tapped I prefer having more than a single color mana.
* A friend of mine has been high on Anathemancer forever; your reasoning is in-line with some of the arguments he has, too. I do know that I hate Fulminator Mage with a passion and have been trying to find a different angle against Tron for years. Maybe I'll finally bite the bullet and give it a shot. Again, since a build like this wants to end the game faster perhaps being able to just do that extra 3-6 dmg to the head (or snipe Ugin) is better than other options.
I'll respond in order to each paragraph, thank you for a detailed response.
The Spellbombs have been enough for me so far. Typically I've been getting Creature/Land/Instant/Sorcery fairly easily. Occasionally a Lili will hit the bin and offset a little bit. I despise Bauble with a HUGE passion. It just doesn't do anything. Spellbomb at least insulates me against opposing GY decks a little bit and there is enough of those running around that I've never felt too bad about it. If I feel super desperate to add more "types" I might look into Brain Maggot or Bitterblossom next. I definitely look to lean on Goyf first and if my opponent can answer it, I follow up with Flayer. In fact most of the time against removal heavy decks or decks with blockers for Flayer I lead Dark Confidant, Goyf, Flayer.
I agree with Ishkanah to an extent but again, I haven't had many issues. Pia and Kiran I've thought about but one of my goals with that Goblin Dark Dwellers slot is having something that is good against removal heavy decks and part of that is dodging Fatal Push. Mom and Pop do that a bit so it's definitely a consideration but normally Huntmaster just has higher upside IMO. Additionally that is why initially I chose GDD though was for the matchups (like midrange mirrors or vs Death Shadow) where things can get grindy, getting 2 creatures is pretty key. Remember with GDD that when you choose Claim // Fame, you use either Claim or Fame so it can be a 6 power haste menace creature.
On the manlands, I definitely wanted 2 manlands but being on 19 lands, I wasn't confident we could always get to 5 mana for Ravine and while 3 power is a bit anemic, it does have Trample and an extremely cheap activation cost which has been relevant. I don't like GQ because adding colorless to the manabase seems risky but I could see double Ravine (admittedly getting lands hasn't been as much an issue as I initially thought).
So I still love Fulminator Mage as it's just a great card but I agree. I ALSO want to be clocking my opponent. So far one of the biggest boons for me about Anathemancer is I've been able to bring it in against both Death Shadow/Midrange/Control matches as well as against Tron. All those decks don't run a ton of basics usually so it just becomes a powerhouse for pushing through the last chunks of damage, sniping off planeswalkers and worst case chump blocking to save some damage (against TKS and the like).
All in all the list is far from set in stone but the deck felt infinitely better than the Abzan lists I was testing due to the speed and versatility of the threats Jund has to offer. Not ramping my opponent with Path is also nice and been worth the additional mana for terminate. The other thing I will note about Claim // Fame is I've often so far been able to use it early to rebuy a threat and play removal in the same turn and get to wait on the Fame portion til it's relevant. It's made for some ridiculously tough decisions for my opponents as they have to attack knowing I could have a cheap huge hastey attacker cracking back. Also it quickly solves the Goyf on Goyf staredown.
The goal I had with playing this list is to try and run as few bad cards as possible. Every card is arguably good against against a good portion of the metagame and with so few lands, that makes our top decks insane.