I go back and forth on capsule but once I added 2 lilianas I haven't looked back.
Crazy sequence I just played out online vs BTL/Gifts deck. I have t1 bauble t2 foundry t3 whir for sword. He ramps into BTL for fracturing gust. I untap and tezzeret hitting an opal. I have 2 more whirs in hand so I'll just whir for foundry whir for sieve all else being equal sac the bauble to recur sword and go infinite. He ramps again and then casts gifts ungiven. I'm like ok I'll whir for cage NBD.
his piles are:
elesh norn, ashen rider, ancient grudge, unburial rites :S
My hand is 2 whirs and an abrupt decay (brought in for stony). I'm not sure what to do here. He has 7 mana but only 1 black. Every card looks horrific and will dismantle combo with ease even through 2 whirs. I decide to give him rites and rider figuring he'll rites for norn, I'll whir for cage, he'll grudge cage - and then I'm pretty much boned unless I rip a liliana (I boarded one out because of g1 lingering souls os only 1 in deck).
EDIT: Just realized if I whir and cage in resp to rites for norn it comes straight into play and he wont be able to flashback grudge. Made the correct call without realizing it. Rites in hand and grudge in gy lets cage kill both cards completely leaving him with an 8 mana vindicate that I can chump all day long
Fortunately he derps it so hard. Plays fetch for black source, casts rider targeting the 5 counter tezzeret... I shrug, whir for sieve, untap sac bauble to get sword back and gg.
But anyone think that's the best split on the gifts pile? Or should I put rider+grudge in the yard and immediately whir for cage to disable both flashbacks? He can then cast norn guaranteed and I'll have to find an out to it. I would have a 5 counter tez but as I say my only outs are I think 2x pulse 1x liliana, a bridge would buy me time.
Decklist below but I'm still liking 2 muddle 2 chromatic sphere 2 lili 0 prism. I'm trying now to focus more on getting a sideboard that does what I want it to. Board continues to feel like an unfocused experiment.
I'm mainly trying to figure out how many slots I need to dedicate towards stony silence and rest in peace. I think decay is the flat out best answer to these, and its versatile against some of the random things (ad nauseum, mine/dictate in taking turns, etc) and with muddles I get some slow virtual copies to work with which is great.
That being said, grid can beat stony and can also do very good work versus creature decks - elves, vizier company, affinity (kinda), lingering souls. I think its probably correct to have 1 grid - not sure its worth a steam vents for the one sb card but I'm wary of t2 stony and sitting there with a grid stranded because I was counting on a star/opal for the red. I don't know if I bring grid in vs UWx control decks - probably not?
Maelstrom Pulse: I am probably dropping this for another decay. I can needle planeswalkers and liliana/bridge big creatures. The extra mana over decay has been murder sometimes, and vs UWx control my hopes of resolving it are near-zero. The only reason I would run it is fear of leyline of the void - but most people play relic/spellbomb/surgical. I could also see using echoing truth instead of pulse for more flexibility if I wanted some kind of true "catch all" (save our own cards from destruction, instant speed, tutorable with muddle, can be removal with discard)
Thoughtseize: I run these for combo/control decks but they are also worth something in the fight vs stony/rip on turn 1. Notably UWx control.
Herald of Anguish: I don't consider this worth anything vs stony silence and am probably cutting it too. I tried, but way too often I go "nice stony, here's a t4 herald" and they go "cool, path it". People simply don't cut all their removal so herald remains a liability esp vs path decks which would be most stony decks.
So I think where I'd go next is 2x decay, 1x grid, 4x thoughtseize and maybe 1x echoing truth. It's possible that its completely moronic to run truth over pulse though.
That 7 tezzeret list has me thinking. Big tezzeret is a legitimate wincon against stony silence (and decks overdoing targeted artifact hate). I'm very interested in this.
I think 3 is too many but maybe one, maybe in the side.
Hmmmm
Edit: I can imagine GDS ripping away all the scary stuff from your hand like thopter/chalice then you landing big tez and going bridge welding jar welding jar. That's just a win against GDS. hmmmmmmmm
People have talked about running a fourth tezz aob in board instead of herald, I guess you could do seeker but man is his plus ability useless. Unless im missing something youd have to nuke your bridge with a foundry in order to swing with his ultimate - not impossible but introduces complication/risk.
As a tutor for bridge or bullets I like it I just wish the untap artifact ability could be good for something. Maybe the tutor is so good that getting anything else is just gravy
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I went 4-1 at our weekly modern night beating Grixis Death Shadow w/ Delvers, UWb Control, Merfolk and Eldrazi Taxes and losing to Titanshift. Still running mostly a turbo build with 3x Tezz and Lili, 1 Bottled Cloister, serum visions but no IOK. 2x sideboard Herald of Anguish was as good as it has ever been for me, mowing down merfolk and taxes creatures and presenting a fast clock the oppponents weren't prepared for. I play a lot on MTGO and he's never won me games that directly before. Lilliana wasn't always great but was usually good, she got a lot of attention and ran away a few times.
Titanshift on the other hand felt terrible. My sideboard felt pretty worthless. I left in collective brutality hoping to spike a scapeshift, that may have been wrong. I screwed up and didn't bring in witchbane orb, which in hindsight was probably my best option. A natural thoptersword on curve wasn't fast enough to prevent prime time from Valakuting me out, and a sketchy keep that didn't come together and it was all over. Damage in bulk seems like it overwhelms the sword combo and primeval titan doesn't care about bridge very much. Is witchbane orb the best we can do?
c. Whir / Witchbane Orb shuts off Valakut for good;
Outside of this you just have to play around 1-2 Vandalblast and/or Grudge (usually), which Welding Jar does.
With these guidelines the Titanshift match-up goes from abysmal when we just try to Thopter-Sword to somewhat manageable in my experience.
Obviously there are times when a Scapeshift will slip through the cracks and you're massively dead, but outside of their nutdraws or when our answers just show up in the wrong order, we can brawl with Titanshift just fine with this plan.
/e: Stressing this out: they have two threats, Valakut, and Titan. Orb deals with one, Bridge the other.
I appreciate your thoughts and think you're right that I overvalued thopter sword and should have played toward bridge/orb more.
In one particular game I lost to being generally slow but having thopter sword online, then having one prime time land, grab 2nd valakut and mountain, killing it with a liliana then losing next turn to pact/titan. Maybe that's rare and I'm undervaluing bridge there, but it didn't seem like it dealt with titan enough for my liking.
Tourney report with the Turbo Tez version (4 gemstone caverns)
Here's my 3-1 tourney recap
Round one vs Mardu Tokens
So a dude showed up late and forgot his deck, I offered him my spare without thinking that I had tricked out the SB to crush tez so my friends will have fun playing it. Naturally I pair against dude.
Game one I nail him with a fast time sieve combo. G2 I fight through 6 horrible SB answers to what I do, almost stabilize and he pulls out the win before I can. G3 is another absurd walloping of like stony, k command, wear tear, rest in peace, anger of the gods. I'm limping along on life support and I happen to runner runner sword, foundry, time sieve. GG
Round two played burn.
Game one he would have beaten me but he'd maindecked deflecting palms because eldrazi are popular in the meta so I pulled it out.
G2 my opening hand was gemstone, spire, polluted, push, collective, abrupt, thopter foundry and I drew sword. I turn zero pushed his goblin guide which got me a land off the top, turn one foundry, turn 2 sword welding jar. GG
Round three GB Tron
Natural tron into Karn Ugin. GG
G2 we have a pithing needle, chalice, abrupt decay party, I get a tezzeret and swarm him with 5/5s
G3 I countered Karn, Karn, Ugin, Oblivion Stone, got thopter sword online and he cast ulamog, which I countered and made 4 power of thopters. I start to clock him and he draws an o ring and wiped my board then draws karn, ballista. Woof.
Round 4 vs UW Control
Game one he doesn't know what I'm playing. I fire off a few lands, get a few baubles out. He taps out to play some draw spell and I whir into foundry and drop sword next turn. He's dead quickly
Game 2 he gets RIP out on two, I had a turn 2 tezzeret with prism and he was dead two turns later. GG
So all in all I had a 70% game win percentage. The deck felt hella great. That tron matchup makes me feel sad. How do we ever beat something like that? I sided in 3 ceremonious rejection, 2 disdainful stroke and 2 negate. How could that not be enough?
What I'm thinking about now is making my main deck removal abrupt decays which will buy me three more sideboard spots to help shore up these big mana matchups (tron and valakut feel really bad)
I'm thinking a lot about big tezzeret. In sideboarded games things slow down and usually end in topdeck mode. If you land a big tez against tron you get a needle for karn, a needle for oblivion stone and then you tick tezzeret up to his ultimate. Against GDS you get bridge welding jar and then just start ripping mishra's baubles. He really does do a lot, offers a fast GG in matchups where we might get blanked by stony. I'm really growing to love the idea of one or two in the side.
Any other thoughts on big mana deck disruption innsideboards? Vampire hexmage? Summary Dismissal?
My other red flag was that academy ruins helped me once and really hobbled me 3 or 4 times. Thinking of turning it into a glimmervoid.
to me the best way to beat valakut is time sieve but you need some luck to get there before they do. Alternatively bridge and witchbane orb but then you still have to win which gives them even more turns to find a disenchant.
In either scenario it feels like if they draw a grudge/grip we're probably not winning. Picking which avenue to go for has to be a judgment call based on your hand and theirs - thoughtseize and muddle can help somewhat - but basically the risk is you put thoptersword out and cant get sieve in time, or you bridge and orb and then need more time to actually kill them (increasing odds they nuke your orb).
Its a pretty bad matchup no matter what but I think thats what it boils down to. If they draw and resolve one artifact removal you are like 90% to lose. Fight that with thoughtseize and muddle and jar - but if they are on krosan grip mudle and jar dont help
Ive been trying tez the seeker. Think of it as a 5th sorcery speed mana intensive whir. No results yet - ive had it thoughtseized, ive died with it stranded uncastable, and ive drawn it when I had combo out but couldnt risk tapping 5 for it just to get stubborn denialed or to get the tutored bridge k-commanded. But out of the board for grindy matches seems decent.
On welding jar - this keeps doing nothing for me. When I lean on it I get shatterstormed or krosan gripped. Last night I am facing some silly rakdos eldrazi deck - he has tks out so I tezz and animate sword with a jar figuring worst case he plays smasher and trades it for a jar and I lose tez. Yeah, he terminates and I once again cant use jar. In another game I had explosives for zero where I mootly used jar to save a bauble :s
Good vs decay and kcommand I guess so play it to the extent those cards are problems - although kc decks may have shatterstorm too
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I think I may move the abrupts to the main, which would buy me a few spots. Then I'm just going all in on beating big mana with my side. Thinking something like
Consensus was bontus is a budget replacement for damnation. Nobody believes its actually a better card just a servicable replacement for money purposes. Not supposed to talk budget options here so that was the end of that.
I dont think any other hou cards fit the deck - control might look at supreme will and nimble obstructionist but I dont think either goes in ub tezz.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I think I may move the abrupts to the main, which would buy me a few spots. Then I'm just going all in on beating big mana with my side. Thinking something like
Is that leaning too hard? I'm just sick of seeing first turn tron land and feeling like my odds of match win are 20%
(my meta feels like 50% tron)
You are much better off giving up that match.
Also, are you playing against Eldrazi Tron or classic GR Tron? Elrazi Tron is very beatable since Ensnaring Bridge can buy us a ton of time and limit the outs our opponent has to Karn and Walking Ballista. Sideboard an extra needle or two should be plenty to sway this match.
GR tron. Unwinnable even with 15 more cards, and now you ruined your match up against everyone else.
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U/B Tezzeret Control
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
Hey guys, I have been away from Modern and Tezzerator as of late and I was hoping someone could catch me up to speed on what the hot new tech is and the current discussion points. Last I played Deaths Shadow was EVERYWHERE but it looks like that has calmed down some.
Now that we are going to have less reliable MTGO data our work is going to be cut out for us. Tezzerator is very much a meta deck and it is going to be increasingly difficult to build/play when we have an unreliable metagame picture. Any thoughts going forward on more objectively powerful builds with most silver bullets sideboard because of this? Or perhaps having a more focused/less flexible kit game 1 in an effort to just combo as often as possible.
You might be farther ahead with some rationale on the weird choices.
I don't think anyone is playing thirst for knowledge in this deck, it has been pretty much completely nuked by Whir, and serum visions gets in because its a turn 1 play and dirt cheap to sneak in around resolving other cards. while thirst is nice in a control/topdeck game 3 mana is a lot in most other situations (when we'd ideally be whirring). I always thought the card would be like peanut butter to thopter/sword's jam but in practice I just never saw it played and when I tried it briefly it was clunk.
4/2 foundry/sword split seems unusual. I think the standard is 3/2 then you move up to 4/3 if you're more "all in" on the combo or playing less tutoring/filtering.
Sideboard - flaying tendrils seems a little random but I assume it has a specific purpose? Is it better vs creature decks than say ghirapur aether grid? And I've often thought of putting fatal push in the side along with the discard, and then just bringing in push or thoughtseize depending if its creature or combo/control deck. It just seems like a pretty low impact approach for a deck that runs a tonne of tutoring/filtering. Silver bullets should be coming in as we have a higher chance to hit them - and you already have to dedicate some "whatever" spots to abrupt decay a lot of the time just to fight stony silence.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I generally don't post in forums but just thought I'd give a quick write up in light of my recent testings with the deck on MTGO, especially seeing as I read this forum closely. I am running a very standard list:
Anyway, I am very happy with the standard build and have the following results from the 5 competitive leagues I have played so far:
4-1
4-1
4-1
1-3 drop
5-0
One of my 4-1's saw me punt in my loss, and I played very badly in my 1-3 drop. In fact, I have caught myself making mistakes in the majority of matches that I play. Let me provide a quick write-up of my 5-0 (achieved yesterday)
Round 1: Affinity 2-1.
I find affinity to be an extremely easy match-up. Pithing Needle, Thopter/Sword and Ensnaring Bridge are all excellent here, and both inquisition and collective brutality are effective at slowing them down/emptying my hand for bridge. Game 1 I inquisitioned then combo'd him out quickly. Game 2, I was on a mul to 6 with four lands and a bridge, drew two more lands and couldn't empty my hand. Perhaps should have gone to 5. Game 3 was very easy with needle, bridge and the combo all available. Never cast bridge as there was no need. Almost no side-boarding is needed here although Pithing Needle and Abrupt Decay are both good. Our plan A is so good here though that I'm hesitant to cut anything beyond Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Round 2: Burn 2-0:
My opponent had fast draws both games, and I was on the draw. Play/draw is huge in this matchup but both games I had natural thopter/sword and 3 mana sources in my opener. Often this isn't enough on the draw but inquisition helped get me there. Nothing worth nothing here other than I punted hard and nearly lost because of it: Never 3 mode a collective brutality vs a swiftspear and one tapped land on an empty board. Opponent drew land into Eidolon, and without another answer to it I very nearly lost what would have been an easy game had I just played to the combo and saved my brutality for Eidolon.
Round 3: Grixis Shadow: 2-1:
This is a matchup in which I feel we are heavily unfavored, and the main reason I've been taking Grixis Control to local PPTQs and not this deck. I was fortunate that in two games my opponent had hands heavy on lands, whereas I had threat-dense (redundancy of combo pieces) in hand. I have not figured out how to sideboard in this matchup yet, and have been bringing in Nihil SpellbombAbrupt Decay and Herald of Anguish while trimming some Mishra's Bauble, and a couple of Pentad PrismMox Opal and Pithing Needle. I am not altogether happy with my plan for the matchup post-SB and would appreciate thoughts on what to cut. I hate the idea of cutting my accelerantes while adding in anguish and green spells, but in practice it has been ok so far.
Round 4: Titan Shift: 2-1:
This matchup I am unsure about. With a bridge and Thopter/Sword out by the time e hit Prime Time I was able to out-race in game 1. I landed a Witchbane Orb in response to his first Valakut triggers in game 2, and was able to take two extra turns in a row with Thopter/Sword and Time Sieve in game 2 although him fetching from a fetch-land and a Sakura-Tribe Elder killed just enough thopters (by one) to halt my combo after I failed to topdeck an artifact to get the combo back on line (forced me to sac all artifacts but foundry and Sieve). Game 3 I won very quickly with turn 3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas swing for 5, turn 4 swing for 10 on the play. I initially felt this matchup was unwinnable but this is only the second time I've played it and it's felt fine, so I am now unsure. I did bring in Quicksilver Fountain but view this as more of a fun-of than anything. It is decent here, although Ensnaring Bridge, Witchbane Orb and the combo with Time Sieve seem more important. Have never tried racing to fountain though.
Round 5: UW Control: 2-0:
This matchup is pretty easy. Between Abrupt Decay for stony and sometimes Detention Sphere (although I usually find this unnecessary) and Pithing Needle on Jace, Architect of Thought I find that they just do not have enough relevant cards. Just play around countermagic and coast to victory.
I know this isn't much detail, but my main point is that while playing sub-optimally I've very consistently done very well in the 5 competitive leagues I've played with the deck. I wanted to try Liliana of the Veil as a 2 of, purely because of how good it is in the format right now but I'm not convinced it's worth subtracting anything from what feels like such a streamlined build. I'll certainly be keeping to this shell for the time being.
Game one I mull keep an awkward hand with a gemstone mine start and what looks like a pentad prism into turn 2 Tezzeret, but the land I scry on top is a Spire of Industry so I have to turn one a sword, turn 2 prism turn 3 Tezzeret, which still turns out- is amazing.
Game two I get a turn one chalice on one he plays a eidolon of the great revel, I tap a bauble to see he has another eidolon on top. My hand is land, 3 zero artifacts and whir. Instead of playing out all my zeros and taking 6 then whirring for bridge I opt to wait for either half of thopter sword to show up to use whir for the other. The cavalry never arrives and I lose to the eidolons.
Game three I rip a turn two tezzeret animating prism which buys me enough time to assemble thopter sword which bails me out thanks to him going in at me for lethal around my 5/5 and me having a Spirit Guide to gain a life and block an extra guy out of nowhere. That card is so busted.
Match 2 vs Blue Moon
Game one I get a chalice on one, power out thopter foundry and then whir for sword when he taps out end of my turn for a draw spell. Crish him.
Game 2 I get thopter sword out, he lands blue moon. I have a mox so I'm set, but I draw another one and just instincively sac one to thopter to play another, he counters my mox and smashes my thopter foundry. He flips a thing in the ice and deals me 21 quickly, me looking at a whir and two foundries uncastable in my hand. Derp.
Game three I land a chalice on one and then thopter sword in subsequent turns. I'm making a bunch of dudes but having to play around his relic and surgicals. I have a whir and 5 lands the whole time but he's got heavy counters. I decide to tap out to force him to have the surgical (after getting him to
Sac his relic) and he doesn't have it, so I untap and make a bunch of dudes, attack and swing. He's got a thing in the ice bout to flip, blood moon and two mana open. I pass turn and he taps to to play a snapcaster, In response I whir for time sieve and go infinite. It felt pretty fly to respond to ambush viper with infinite turns.
Match 3 grixis delver
Game one I cruise the combo out and stabilize at one life (again with a secret monkey activation of thopter sword)
Game two I get thopter sword and have a negate because I know he runs shatterstorm. He is digging like crazy and draws it on the last possible turn, I negate, he dispels and swings for lethal. Brutal.
Game three I have thopter sword by turn 2 and start laying it on pretty thick, he collectives me revealing negate whir tez. I reveal my hand and dump negate, he says he wants the whir. I am confused. On the turn before he dies he casts shatterstorm into my negate he knew about. Somehow he was preparing for a post ahatterstrom game and it just slipped his mind negate would answer shatterstorm. GGs
Ultimately the chalices in main along with 2 monkeys and Gemstones make for more often than not a turn one degenrate play, be it prism with tezeret, chalice on one or thopter combo live by turn two. A lot of games that one turn edge made all the difference.
So in short I think we can be the deck people need to answer. We're fast, robust and powerful.
I had dropped maelstrom pulse from my sideboard but last night ran into uw control with leyline of sanctity and stony silence.
G1 I faced jace aot into gideon into elspeth suns champ. I had tezz aob on t3 so I animate and drop jace from 5 counters to 1, then he gideons so I animate again and deal 8 to gideon (jace shrinkage) while also establishing combo. I decide to just tick tezz back up to 4 and block any elspeth soldier attacks with tokens - ill get there before she ultimates. I draw a needle for jace finally, he draws dsphere and targets foundry instead of tezz - punt. Untap ultimate gg although I think I win with the needle even if he hits tez.
G2 im sideboarding and wonder about bringing in 4 thoughtseize vs a deck that might have leylines. I keep 6 with 2 thoughtseizes and he t0 leylines. I just scoop and go to g3
G3 opening hand has decay and stuff. He goes t4 leyline t6 stony and I feel like its a cryptic to bounce in response to decay. I put combo out and other stuff waiting for some way to force through the decay. He cliques me so I decay and make 5 tokens, aether grid down the clique (which is also useless vs stony if leyline is out). He rips dsphere next turn for tokens and thats that.
So my point or problem is decks w stony and leyline. Rw prison and uwx control - does pulse help enough? Do we bring in thoughtseizes or grid?
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Consensus was bontus is a budget replacement for damnation. Nobody believes its actually a better card just a servicable replacement for money purposes. Not supposed to talk budget options here so that was the end of that.
I dont think any other hou cards fit the deck - control might look at supreme will and nimble obstructionist but I dont think either goes in ub tezz.
I've been playing 2 Bontu's Last Reckoning in the board for a number of MTGO leagues. It's OK. I think I like it slightly better than damnation for a few reasons, one being that it's faster and so better against Elves which is a hard match, and two, it's easier to cast vs hatebears. Try casting a damnation with Thalia out in time for it to matter. The untap drawback has really only been an issue when opponent is holding a CoCo or when an Aether Vial is out.
Side note - I've been struggling recently against hatebears or D+T or whatever you want to call it. Early Thalia has been a beast, because I'm almost always taking a Leonin Arbiter with IoK on turn one or two. In longer games, Flickerwisp shenanigans with Eldrazi Displacer is hard to deal with. I think it's a matchup that isn't awful, but just takes a lot of practice. Like, a LOT of practice.
@BadMcFadden - If you're on Sultai, just play a Pulse if that scenario bothers you. With an Esper list, I use Fragmentize and even a Felidar Cub, as Leyline is important to get rid of. Cub has actually been a pretty decent SB option - it can block and swing and even take out an Eidolan without any lifeloss, and can't be negated. If you don't like pulse, I'd go one Rec Sage.
Crazy sequence I just played out online vs BTL/Gifts deck. I have t1 bauble t2 foundry t3 whir for sword. He ramps into BTL for fracturing gust. I untap and tezzeret hitting an opal. I have 2 more whirs in hand so I'll just whir for foundry whir for sieve all else being equal sac the bauble to recur sword and go infinite. He ramps again and then casts gifts ungiven. I'm like ok I'll whir for cage NBD.
his piles are:
elesh norn, ashen rider, ancient grudge, unburial rites :S
My hand is 2 whirs and an abrupt decay (brought in for stony). I'm not sure what to do here. He has 7 mana but only 1 black. Every card looks horrific and will dismantle combo with ease even through 2 whirs. I decide to give him rites and rider figuring he'll rites for norn, I'll whir for cage, he'll grudge cage - and then I'm pretty much boned unless I rip a liliana (I boarded one out because of g1 lingering souls os only 1 in deck).
EDIT: Just realized if I whir and cage in resp to rites for norn it comes straight into play and he wont be able to flashback grudge. Made the correct call without realizing it. Rites in hand and grudge in gy lets cage kill both cards completely leaving him with an 8 mana vindicate that I can chump all day long
Fortunately he derps it so hard. Plays fetch for black source, casts rider targeting the 5 counter tezzeret... I shrug, whir for sieve, untap sac bauble to get sword back and gg.
But anyone think that's the best split on the gifts pile? Or should I put rider+grudge in the yard and immediately whir for cage to disable both flashbacks? He can then cast norn guaranteed and I'll have to find an out to it. I would have a 5 counter tez but as I say my only outs are I think 2x pulse 1x liliana, a bridge would buy me time.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I like the ballistas with mages. Too many tezz's. Needs thopter sword and too many damnation main.
I'm mainly trying to figure out how many slots I need to dedicate towards stony silence and rest in peace. I think decay is the flat out best answer to these, and its versatile against some of the random things (ad nauseum, mine/dictate in taking turns, etc) and with muddles I get some slow virtual copies to work with which is great.
That being said, grid can beat stony and can also do very good work versus creature decks - elves, vizier company, affinity (kinda), lingering souls. I think its probably correct to have 1 grid - not sure its worth a steam vents for the one sb card but I'm wary of t2 stony and sitting there with a grid stranded because I was counting on a star/opal for the red. I don't know if I bring grid in vs UWx control decks - probably not?
Maelstrom Pulse: I am probably dropping this for another decay. I can needle planeswalkers and liliana/bridge big creatures. The extra mana over decay has been murder sometimes, and vs UWx control my hopes of resolving it are near-zero. The only reason I would run it is fear of leyline of the void - but most people play relic/spellbomb/surgical. I could also see using echoing truth instead of pulse for more flexibility if I wanted some kind of true "catch all" (save our own cards from destruction, instant speed, tutorable with muddle, can be removal with discard)
Thoughtseize: I run these for combo/control decks but they are also worth something in the fight vs stony/rip on turn 1. Notably UWx control.
Herald of Anguish: I don't consider this worth anything vs stony silence and am probably cutting it too. I tried, but way too often I go "nice stony, here's a t4 herald" and they go "cool, path it". People simply don't cut all their removal so herald remains a liability esp vs path decks which would be most stony decks.
So I think where I'd go next is 2x decay, 1x grid, 4x thoughtseize and maybe 1x echoing truth. It's possible that its completely moronic to run truth over pulse though.
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Time Sieve
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
3 Mox Opal
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Talisman of Dominance
1 Pithing Needle
2 Chromatic Star
1 Welding Jar
// 6 Instant
4 Whir of Invention
2 Muddle the Mixture
4 Polluted Delta
3 Darkslick Shores
2 Watery Grave
2 Island
2 Flooded Strand
1 Swamp
1 Inventors' Fair
3 Spire of Industry
1 Academy Ruins
1 Breeding Pool
1 Steam Vents
// 5 Planeswalker
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Liliana of the Veil
// 5 Sorcery
4 Serum Visions
1 Collective Brutality
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Torpor Orb
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1 Ghirapur Aether Grid
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Damnation
4 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
1 Echoing Truth
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I think 3 is too many but maybe one, maybe in the side.
Hmmmm
Edit: I can imagine GDS ripping away all the scary stuff from your hand like thopter/chalice then you landing big tez and going bridge welding jar welding jar. That's just a win against GDS. hmmmmmmmm
As a tutor for bridge or bullets I like it I just wish the untap artifact ability could be good for something. Maybe the tutor is so good that getting anything else is just gravy
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Titanshift on the other hand felt terrible. My sideboard felt pretty worthless. I left in collective brutality hoping to spike a scapeshift, that may have been wrong. I screwed up and didn't bring in witchbane orb, which in hindsight was probably my best option. A natural thoptersword on curve wasn't fast enough to prevent prime time from Valakuting me out, and a sketchy keep that didn't come together and it was all over. Damage in bulk seems like it overwhelms the sword combo and primeval titan doesn't care about bridge very much. Is witchbane orb the best we can do?
a. Targeted discard nabs early game Scapeshift;
b. Whir / Bridge stops Titan cold;
c. Whir / Witchbane Orb shuts off Valakut for good;
Outside of this you just have to play around 1-2 Vandalblast and/or Grudge (usually), which Welding Jar does.
With these guidelines the Titanshift match-up goes from abysmal when we just try to Thopter-Sword to somewhat manageable in my experience.
Obviously there are times when a Scapeshift will slip through the cracks and you're massively dead, but outside of their nutdraws or when our answers just show up in the wrong order, we can brawl with Titanshift just fine with this plan.
/e: Stressing this out: they have two threats, Valakut, and Titan. Orb deals with one, Bridge the other.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
I appreciate your thoughts and think you're right that I overvalued thopter sword and should have played toward bridge/orb more.
In one particular game I lost to being generally slow but having thopter sword online, then having one prime time land, grab 2nd valakut and mountain, killing it with a liliana then losing next turn to pact/titan. Maybe that's rare and I'm undervaluing bridge there, but it didn't seem like it dealt with titan enough for my liking.
Here's my 3-1 tourney recap
Round one vs Mardu Tokens
So a dude showed up late and forgot his deck, I offered him my spare without thinking that I had tricked out the SB to crush tez so my friends will have fun playing it. Naturally I pair against dude.
Game one I nail him with a fast time sieve combo. G2 I fight through 6 horrible SB answers to what I do, almost stabilize and he pulls out the win before I can. G3 is another absurd walloping of like stony, k command, wear tear, rest in peace, anger of the gods. I'm limping along on life support and I happen to runner runner sword, foundry, time sieve. GG
Round two played burn.
Game one he would have beaten me but he'd maindecked deflecting palms because eldrazi are popular in the meta so I pulled it out.
G2 my opening hand was gemstone, spire, polluted, push, collective, abrupt, thopter foundry and I drew sword. I turn zero pushed his goblin guide which got me a land off the top, turn one foundry, turn 2 sword welding jar. GG
Round three GB Tron
Natural tron into Karn Ugin. GG
G2 we have a pithing needle, chalice, abrupt decay party, I get a tezzeret and swarm him with 5/5s
G3 I countered Karn, Karn, Ugin, Oblivion Stone, got thopter sword online and he cast ulamog, which I countered and made 4 power of thopters. I start to clock him and he draws an o ring and wiped my board then draws karn, ballista. Woof.
Round 4 vs UW Control
Game one he doesn't know what I'm playing. I fire off a few lands, get a few baubles out. He taps out to play some draw spell and I whir into foundry and drop sword next turn. He's dead quickly
Game 2 he gets RIP out on two, I had a turn 2 tezzeret with prism and he was dead two turns later. GG
So all in all I had a 70% game win percentage. The deck felt hella great. That tron matchup makes me feel sad. How do we ever beat something like that? I sided in 3 ceremonious rejection, 2 disdainful stroke and 2 negate. How could that not be enough?
What I'm thinking about now is making my main deck removal abrupt decays which will buy me three more sideboard spots to help shore up these big mana matchups (tron and valakut feel really bad)
I'm thinking a lot about big tezzeret. In sideboarded games things slow down and usually end in topdeck mode. If you land a big tez against tron you get a needle for karn, a needle for oblivion stone and then you tick tezzeret up to his ultimate. Against GDS you get bridge welding jar and then just start ripping mishra's baubles. He really does do a lot, offers a fast GG in matchups where we might get blanked by stony. I'm really growing to love the idea of one or two in the side.
Any other thoughts on big mana deck disruption innsideboards? Vampire hexmage? Summary Dismissal?
My other red flag was that academy ruins helped me once and really hobbled me 3 or 4 times. Thinking of turning it into a glimmervoid.
@Boomforest: look up the linked post in my sig for some cues on beating Tron.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
In either scenario it feels like if they draw a grudge/grip we're probably not winning. Picking which avenue to go for has to be a judgment call based on your hand and theirs - thoughtseize and muddle can help somewhat - but basically the risk is you put thoptersword out and cant get sieve in time, or you bridge and orb and then need more time to actually kill them (increasing odds they nuke your orb).
Its a pretty bad matchup no matter what but I think thats what it boils down to. If they draw and resolve one artifact removal you are like 90% to lose. Fight that with thoughtseize and muddle and jar - but if they are on krosan grip mudle and jar dont help
Ive been trying tez the seeker. Think of it as a 5th sorcery speed mana intensive whir. No results yet - ive had it thoughtseized, ive died with it stranded uncastable, and ive drawn it when I had combo out but couldnt risk tapping 5 for it just to get stubborn denialed or to get the tutored bridge k-commanded. But out of the board for grindy matches seems decent.
On welding jar - this keeps doing nothing for me. When I lean on it I get shatterstormed or krosan gripped. Last night I am facing some silly rakdos eldrazi deck - he has tks out so I tezz and animate sword with a jar figuring worst case he plays smasher and trades it for a jar and I lose tez. Yeah, he terminates and I once again cant use jar. In another game I had explosives for zero where I mootly used jar to save a bauble :s
Good vs decay and kcommand I guess so play it to the extent those cards are problems - although kc decks may have shatterstorm too
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
3 Ceremonious Rejection
3 Disdainful Stroke
2 Negate
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Collective Brutality (for burn)
Is that leaning too hard? I'm just sick of seeing first turn tron land and feeling like my odds of match win are 20%
(my meta feels like 50% tron)
I dont think any other hou cards fit the deck - control might look at supreme will and nimble obstructionist but I dont think either goes in ub tezz.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
You are much better off giving up that match.
Also, are you playing against Eldrazi Tron or classic GR Tron? Elrazi Tron is very beatable since Ensnaring Bridge can buy us a ton of time and limit the outs our opponent has to Karn and Walking Ballista. Sideboard an extra needle or two should be plenty to sway this match.
GR tron. Unwinnable even with 15 more cards, and now you ruined your match up against everyone else.
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
Now that we are going to have less reliable MTGO data our work is going to be cut out for us. Tezzerator is very much a meta deck and it is going to be increasingly difficult to build/play when we have an unreliable metagame picture. Any thoughts going forward on more objectively powerful builds with most silver bullets sideboard because of this? Or perhaps having a more focused/less flexible kit game 1 in an effort to just combo as often as possible.
Current Build:
1 Breeding Pool
4 Darkslick Shores
1 Darksteel Citadel
2 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Spire of Industry
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Mox Opal
3 Pentad Prism
1 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Welding Jar
2 Collective Brutality
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Serum Visions
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Whir of Invention
1 Damnation
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Flaying Tendrils
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Herald of Anguish
1 Lost Legacy
1 Spellskite
3 Spreading Seas
2 Thoughtseize
Build going forward:
1 Breeding Pool
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Island
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Spire of Industry
1 Swamp
3 Watery Grave
Artifacts:
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Mox Opal
2 Pentad Prism
1 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Sword of the Meek
4 Thopter Foundry
1 Welding Jar
Spells:
2 Collective Brutality
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Serum Visions
1 Thoughtseize
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Thirst For Knowledge
4 Whir of Invention
1 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
1 Ethersworn Cantonist
2 Fatal Push
1 Flaying Tendrils
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Herald of Anguish
1 Lost Legacy
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spellskite
1 Thoughtseize
1 Witchbane Orb
Thoughts?
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
I don't think anyone is playing thirst for knowledge in this deck, it has been pretty much completely nuked by Whir, and serum visions gets in because its a turn 1 play and dirt cheap to sneak in around resolving other cards. while thirst is nice in a control/topdeck game 3 mana is a lot in most other situations (when we'd ideally be whirring). I always thought the card would be like peanut butter to thopter/sword's jam but in practice I just never saw it played and when I tried it briefly it was clunk.
4/2 foundry/sword split seems unusual. I think the standard is 3/2 then you move up to 4/3 if you're more "all in" on the combo or playing less tutoring/filtering.
Sideboard - flaying tendrils seems a little random but I assume it has a specific purpose? Is it better vs creature decks than say ghirapur aether grid? And I've often thought of putting fatal push in the side along with the discard, and then just bringing in push or thoughtseize depending if its creature or combo/control deck. It just seems like a pretty low impact approach for a deck that runs a tonne of tutoring/filtering. Silver bullets should be coming in as we have a higher chance to hit them - and you already have to dedicate some "whatever" spots to abrupt decay a lot of the time just to fight stony silence.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I generally don't post in forums but just thought I'd give a quick write up in light of my recent testings with the deck on MTGO, especially seeing as I read this forum closely. I am running a very standard list:
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Breeding Pool
4 Darkslick Shores
2 River of Tears
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Watery Grave
1 Inventors' Fair
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Pentad Prism
1 Pithing Needle
3 Sword of the Meek
4 Thopter Foundry
2 Welding Jar
4 Whir of Invention
3 Mox Opal
3 Collective Brutality
4 Serum Visions
1 Pithing Needle
1 Witchbane Orb
2 Herald of Anguish
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Quicksilver Fountain
1 Torpor Orb
1 Defense Grid
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Time Sieve
Anyway, I am very happy with the standard build and have the following results from the 5 competitive leagues I have played so far:
4-1
4-1
4-1
1-3 drop
5-0
One of my 4-1's saw me punt in my loss, and I played very badly in my 1-3 drop. In fact, I have caught myself making mistakes in the majority of matches that I play. Let me provide a quick write-up of my 5-0 (achieved yesterday)
Round 1: Affinity 2-1.
I find affinity to be an extremely easy match-up. Pithing Needle, Thopter/Sword and Ensnaring Bridge are all excellent here, and both inquisition and collective brutality are effective at slowing them down/emptying my hand for bridge. Game 1 I inquisitioned then combo'd him out quickly. Game 2, I was on a mul to 6 with four lands and a bridge, drew two more lands and couldn't empty my hand. Perhaps should have gone to 5. Game 3 was very easy with needle, bridge and the combo all available. Never cast bridge as there was no need. Almost no side-boarding is needed here although Pithing Needle and Abrupt Decay are both good. Our plan A is so good here though that I'm hesitant to cut anything beyond Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Round 2: Burn 2-0:
My opponent had fast draws both games, and I was on the draw. Play/draw is huge in this matchup but both games I had natural thopter/sword and 3 mana sources in my opener. Often this isn't enough on the draw but inquisition helped get me there. Nothing worth nothing here other than I punted hard and nearly lost because of it: Never 3 mode a collective brutality vs a swiftspear and one tapped land on an empty board. Opponent drew land into Eidolon, and without another answer to it I very nearly lost what would have been an easy game had I just played to the combo and saved my brutality for Eidolon.
SB in Witchbane Orb and 2 Abrupt Decay for Pithing Needle and two Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Round 3: Grixis Shadow: 2-1:
This is a matchup in which I feel we are heavily unfavored, and the main reason I've been taking Grixis Control to local PPTQs and not this deck. I was fortunate that in two games my opponent had hands heavy on lands, whereas I had threat-dense (redundancy of combo pieces) in hand. I have not figured out how to sideboard in this matchup yet, and have been bringing in Nihil Spellbomb Abrupt Decay and Herald of Anguish while trimming some Mishra's Bauble, and a couple of Pentad Prism Mox Opal and Pithing Needle. I am not altogether happy with my plan for the matchup post-SB and would appreciate thoughts on what to cut. I hate the idea of cutting my accelerantes while adding in anguish and green spells, but in practice it has been ok so far.
Round 4: Titan Shift: 2-1:
This matchup I am unsure about. With a bridge and Thopter/Sword out by the time e hit Prime Time I was able to out-race in game 1. I landed a Witchbane Orb in response to his first Valakut triggers in game 2, and was able to take two extra turns in a row with Thopter/Sword and Time Sieve in game 2 although him fetching from a fetch-land and a Sakura-Tribe Elder killed just enough thopters (by one) to halt my combo after I failed to topdeck an artifact to get the combo back on line (forced me to sac all artifacts but foundry and Sieve). Game 3 I won very quickly with turn 3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas swing for 5, turn 4 swing for 10 on the play. I initially felt this matchup was unwinnable but this is only the second time I've played it and it's felt fine, so I am now unsure. I did bring in Quicksilver Fountain but view this as more of a fun-of than anything. It is decent here, although Ensnaring Bridge, Witchbane Orb and the combo with Time Sieve seem more important. Have never tried racing to fountain though.
Round 5: UW Control: 2-0:
This matchup is pretty easy. Between Abrupt Decay for stony and sometimes Detention Sphere (although I usually find this unnecessary) and Pithing Needle on Jace, Architect of Thought I find that they just do not have enough relevant cards. Just play around countermagic and coast to victory.
I know this isn't much detail, but my main point is that while playing sub-optimally I've very consistently done very well in the 5 competitive leagues I've played with the deck. I wanted to try Liliana of the Veil as a 2 of, purely because of how good it is in the format right now but I'm not convinced it's worth subtracting anything from what feels like such a streamlined build. I'll certainly be keeping to this shell for the time being.
I 3-0'd but I felt like I could have X-0'd easily. The deck is just berserk.
Here's what I ran. I always play on the draw.
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Thopter Foundry
3 Sword of the Meek
4 Whir of Invention
4 Pentad Prism
4 Mox Opal
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Welding Jar
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
1 Time Sieve
4 Gemstone Caverns
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
2 Spire of Industry
1 Aether Hub
1 Underground River
3 Island
SB
2 Dispel
1 Ceremonious Rejection
3 Disdainful Stroke
1 Negate
1 Disallow
1 Collective Brutality
1 Gopher the Throat
1 Witchbane Orb
2 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ensanring Bridge
Round 1 Burn
Game one I mull keep an awkward hand with a gemstone mine start and what looks like a pentad prism into turn 2 Tezzeret, but the land I scry on top is a Spire of Industry so I have to turn one a sword, turn 2 prism turn 3 Tezzeret, which still turns out- is amazing.
Game two I get a turn one chalice on one he plays a eidolon of the great revel, I tap a bauble to see he has another eidolon on top. My hand is land, 3 zero artifacts and whir. Instead of playing out all my zeros and taking 6 then whirring for bridge I opt to wait for either half of thopter sword to show up to use whir for the other. The cavalry never arrives and I lose to the eidolons.
Game three I rip a turn two tezzeret animating prism which buys me enough time to assemble thopter sword which bails me out thanks to him going in at me for lethal around my 5/5 and me having a Spirit Guide to gain a life and block an extra guy out of nowhere. That card is so busted.
Match 2 vs Blue Moon
Game one I get a chalice on one, power out thopter foundry and then whir for sword when he taps out end of my turn for a draw spell. Crish him.
Game 2 I get thopter sword out, he lands blue moon. I have a mox so I'm set, but I draw another one and just instincively sac one to thopter to play another, he counters my mox and smashes my thopter foundry. He flips a thing in the ice and deals me 21 quickly, me looking at a whir and two foundries uncastable in my hand. Derp.
Game three I land a chalice on one and then thopter sword in subsequent turns. I'm making a bunch of dudes but having to play around his relic and surgicals. I have a whir and 5 lands the whole time but he's got heavy counters. I decide to tap out to force him to have the surgical (after getting him to
Sac his relic) and he doesn't have it, so I untap and make a bunch of dudes, attack and swing. He's got a thing in the ice bout to flip, blood moon and two mana open. I pass turn and he taps to to play a snapcaster, In response I whir for time sieve and go infinite. It felt pretty fly to respond to ambush viper with infinite turns.
Match 3 grixis delver
Game one I cruise the combo out and stabilize at one life (again with a secret monkey activation of thopter sword)
Game two I get thopter sword and have a negate because I know he runs shatterstorm. He is digging like crazy and draws it on the last possible turn, I negate, he dispels and swings for lethal. Brutal.
Game three I have thopter sword by turn 2 and start laying it on pretty thick, he collectives me revealing negate whir tez. I reveal my hand and dump negate, he says he wants the whir. I am confused. On the turn before he dies he casts shatterstorm into my negate he knew about. Somehow he was preparing for a post ahatterstrom game and it just slipped his mind negate would answer shatterstorm. GGs
Ultimately the chalices in main along with 2 monkeys and Gemstones make for more often than not a turn one degenrate play, be it prism with tezeret, chalice on one or thopter combo live by turn two. A lot of games that one turn edge made all the difference.
So in short I think we can be the deck people need to answer. We're fast, robust and powerful.
I LOVE THIS DECK!!!!!!!!!!!
G1 I faced jace aot into gideon into elspeth suns champ. I had tezz aob on t3 so I animate and drop jace from 5 counters to 1, then he gideons so I animate again and deal 8 to gideon (jace shrinkage) while also establishing combo. I decide to just tick tezz back up to 4 and block any elspeth soldier attacks with tokens - ill get there before she ultimates. I draw a needle for jace finally, he draws dsphere and targets foundry instead of tezz - punt. Untap ultimate gg although I think I win with the needle even if he hits tez.
G2 im sideboarding and wonder about bringing in 4 thoughtseize vs a deck that might have leylines. I keep 6 with 2 thoughtseizes and he t0 leylines. I just scoop and go to g3
G3 opening hand has decay and stuff. He goes t4 leyline t6 stony and I feel like its a cryptic to bounce in response to decay. I put combo out and other stuff waiting for some way to force through the decay. He cliques me so I decay and make 5 tokens, aether grid down the clique (which is also useless vs stony if leyline is out). He rips dsphere next turn for tokens and thats that.
So my point or problem is decks w stony and leyline. Rw prison and uwx control - does pulse help enough? Do we bring in thoughtseizes or grid?
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I've been playing 2 Bontu's Last Reckoning in the board for a number of MTGO leagues. It's OK. I think I like it slightly better than damnation for a few reasons, one being that it's faster and so better against Elves which is a hard match, and two, it's easier to cast vs hatebears. Try casting a damnation with Thalia out in time for it to matter. The untap drawback has really only been an issue when opponent is holding a CoCo or when an Aether Vial is out.
Side note - I've been struggling recently against hatebears or D+T or whatever you want to call it. Early Thalia has been a beast, because I'm almost always taking a Leonin Arbiter with IoK on turn one or two. In longer games, Flickerwisp shenanigans with Eldrazi Displacer is hard to deal with. I think it's a matchup that isn't awful, but just takes a lot of practice. Like, a LOT of practice.
@BadMcFadden - If you're on Sultai, just play a Pulse if that scenario bothers you. With an Esper list, I use Fragmentize and even a Felidar Cub, as Leyline is important to get rid of. Cub has actually been a pretty decent SB option - it can block and swing and even take out an Eidolan without any lifeloss, and can't be negated. If you don't like pulse, I'd go one Rec Sage.