Played Whir last night. Nothing really to report and nothing special in the deck that hasn't been discussed. Lost to amulet bloom and an aggro Goblin list with Goblin grenades rabble master etc.
Do we have ways of beating either other than discard?
if amulet bloom cant swing with titan (bridge) it doesnt seem like it can do much. Hope to draw a hive mind? Try to beat you down with sakura tribe scouts and slayers stronghold?
Aggro decks - I mean you hav IoK, Push, Crane, Brutality to buy time to either get the combo out or get a bridge down hellbent. Certainly 1/1s are harder to bridge than wild nacatls but its a perfectly acceptable plan.
Cycle lands: I seriously doubt it.
One other neat interaction I've found: echoing truth + herald of anguish. I've always said truth is great UB removal if you have lilianas and servicable with late game IoK/Thoughtseize (2-for-1 but what else can you do with discard late game). Herals' liliana-like effect is great when they're hellbent with herald out.
I've been playing 4 talisman 0 opal 0 prism and I have to say, not once have I ever felt like I wished the talismans would be either card. I'm often playing on 4-5 mana total with the talismans, situations where an empty prism would be frustrating, I'm also often not showing metalcraft until turn 4, so opal would not be letting me cast 4 drops on turn 3 or multiple spells/tapped lands on turn 3.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Thanks guys. One more question I haven't seen mentioned. First I love the Whir version of this deck along with prism. So much fun and good toolbox version. I personally run the four prisms plus two glimmervoids and two spires and two opals. That's 10 ways to produce any color. Has anyone built a version similar? I run Abrupt decays in board and they have been great but wondering if I have enough 5 color sources to try running sideboard cards of other colors like red or white. Thoughts?
just thinking.... do we want to be playing the new bicycle lands? sure they come in tapped which is a problem but running 1 or 2 doesn't seem like a bad idea to me. being able to cycle them away for a card late game would be pretty valuable as we usually dont need to be drawing into lands once we have the lock established. what do you guys reckon?
Bicycle land has to be the worst name since tangoland. It's a dual that cycles, ergo it's a Cycle Dual. Less syllables, more descriptive. /End rant
Anyways, not too many are running Vedalken Shackles these days, but the cycle duals could be good there. Now we have 12 modern legal Islands that produce black mana, 16 if you include Polluted Delta. A mono Island Mana base is possible. Not too sure that Shackles is great, given that it can't really nab a deaths shadow or tarmogoyf until the late game...But in combination with Dismember or something from Amonkhet yet to be spoiled (-1-1 counter theme), it could be time for some shackles action.
Shackles, while a great card, is primarily a midrange crusher. And we already have what it takes to crush midrange.
@BadMcFadden: Truth + Herald is a nice catch. In many respects, Herald really is Lili on legs.
About Talismans. Well more about Prism, I've noticed that powering out a T3 Tezz with Prism itself still untapped and available for suiting up and beating face, for against Tron for example, is really valuable. On it's own. Although it grinds better, Talisman won't give you that. That's an upside for running Prism.
Bottom line, keep looking for % points where they matter most.
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MODERN Blue Lantern, UBx Tezzerator. OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
Shackles, while a great card, is primarily a midrange crusher. And we already have what it takes to crush midrange.
I agree - wasn't advocating for shackles so much as stating what type of build the cycle duals would benefit. As in, I don't think the cycle duals are great for the prototypical lists.
@Terraxxion: Can you lay some insight as to why you have the singleton Batterskull in your list, aside being about Whir for it on T3 with a nuts-draw hand? So far in testing your list, I've never wanted to Whir for Batterskull and have groaned quite often seeing it. Usually, it's just stuck behind an Ensnaring Bridge as a 4/4 lifelinking wall for something that MAY be able to attack. I'm trying to stay away from the "Turbo" list (I really don't want to shell out a couple Benjamins for a playset of an uncommon) and I've found your's the most appealing, just the Batterskull has me scratching my head.
This is what I am starting to run. Only a week on the deck (and paper only) so my effective matches are under 20 at this point.
My biggest challenge had been moving from game a state where I can be behind my Ensnaring Bridge into a position where I can close out. There are plenty of games where I can go straight to Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek and close out quickly but the deck suffers from bad topdecking.
The deck is fast when it goes off, but dreadfully slow if you get behind the bridge without a Tezz or the combo half assembled already. We have been talking about Expedition Map, Tolaria West[c/] and Inventor's Fair for a while and I am going all in and trying it. As others have stated, the opportunity cost is low but it could help us get out of top decking and get the combo going a turn or two earlier (which would have won me a few games which I instead lost).
Where I differ more from others is in the sideboard. I have yet to test the two Chalice of the Void but they are there to help trounce some Tron, Burn, DS and others who rely fairly heavily on their 1 drops. The other major change is the addition of three Surgical Extraction in lieu of cards like Padeem, Consul of Innovation or Trading Post. Both of these have felt slow, being at 4 CMC, and not worth the payoff. The Surgical Extraction would have been incredibly clutch against Tron or other Combo decks which can get setup or counter me quicker than I can setup.
I am having a blast running this and my opponents either have a blast, or in the case on one Death's Shadow player, curses you out for running a prison deck.
I would love to talk sideboard as that is where this deck should be focusing efforts. The main deck seems to have a few flexible slots but overall feels solid.
Edit: Liliana of the Veil vs Herald of Anguish - This is an interesting topic. If I were to slot these in they would replace the Chalice's in the sideboard most likely. I feel LotV is far superior as it gives us an additional win condition behind the Ensnaring Bridge and still has lots synergies well with that strategy. I have tried Herald a few times and it either comes down too late or is only discarding my opponents hand from behind the bridge.
Went to the Worcester Open and was kicking myself when I bombed out of Legacy and didn't have my Tezz deck with me. I did pick up a Lili in trade and will now be on a 2/1 tezz/lili split main.
Online has been OK. I've recently been struggling against U/W control, as they annoyingly have been NOT siding out their creature hate, and my Heralds and Padeems die quickly. Their card advantage and endless cryptic commands just always get there in games 2 and 3. Which is why Lili is coming in, and I'll be going back to Ashiok in the side.
I still don't know why no one seems to be running Serum Visions. I was advocating Baubles a while ago, and am glad they're becoming more common. Visions is just as good a card in this deck, imo.
@Tuberov31: I fully understand your discontent, im also not very happy with the Batterskull. The idea was beeing able to whir for a creature card, for emergeny blocks or for attacking planeswalker. Since the list doesnt run any creatures i wanted to avoid any artifact creature since they attract all the removal the opponent got stuck in his hand. So Batterskull was the perfect card, it's a very sticky and annoying threat against removalheavy decks, any removal on it is like a 0 for 1 since you can always bounce and replay it (massive mana sink ofc). It is also another whirable wincon in case they extract our combo and helps stabilize with lifelink.
BUT i agree with you, it didnt quite perform the way i wanted to. It's too expensive when trying to empty your hand, too often it cant attack because of Ensnaring Bridge or bigger creatures like Tarmogoyf or Tasigur, the golden fang. So i'm also thinking about cutting it, im just not sure yet for what. I think this deck doesnt need more win conditions so im probably adding another utility card or another silver bullet.
Edit: The other card that competed with this slot was Etched Champion. It is cheaper than Batterskull and has incredible protection and evasion. But i somehow got the feeling it would be as unsatisfactory as Batterskull and the deck simply doesnt need this kind of slot.
To be honest, I'm looking at a second Mox Opal or a second Sword of the Meek. Mox just seems like it wants more copies and Sword, well, if they have a way to strip it we lose a valuable win con. I do agree that Etched Champion (or really any creature, aside Spellskite) is worth this spot.
Another card I've been putting under consideration is Metallic Rebuke. I know it's a 3 drop Mana Leak and they get worse as the game tends to wear on. Also, I know this is more of a tap-out balls-to-the-wall style of deck where we want to squeeze them early but, especially in the "Turbo version", wouldn't it be nice to be able to go "Blue Source, Mox, Bauble" and be able to hold up counter mana for whatever they have in mind in G2 and G3? Get yourself all set up on turn 2 to get the combo on turn 3? You can hold up counter mana effectively to counter a Stony Silence or a Rest in Piece (two pieces we don't like to see). I know a number of us run discard, but personally, I tend to see my opponent topdeck the sideboard tech or answer just after I try to rip it from their hand, making counter seem a little more applicable than hand disruption. Thoughts?
It is a bit different that the Tezzeret version, but obviously it uses the Thopter Sword Combo. I didnt know if I should post it here because of that reason, but figured might as well.
Has anyone tried Krark-Clan Ironworks? I did not see that in the previous versions. I found it to be extremely strong.
Any thoughts on my list would be appreciated, but I am excited to see the Tezzeret version develop as well.
Metallic Rebuke is too bad of a card to run. It sounds good because "counter-spell with artifact synergy? Awesome!" but in practice it is a worse manaleak 50% of the time and a pretty bad top-deck (In the late-game scenario you described, they just pay the 3 to cast ancient grudge/stony).
I believe you are looking in the right direction as counter-magic is pretty potent at dealing with the hate cards. I run 2 negate in the sideboard for this reason.
I think post-board if they are playing white, its a pretty sure thing they are playing at least a couple stony silences. Good thing is stony silence is actually not a huge issue for the deck to deal with as long as you expect it and don't keep a hand exceptionally weak to it. Herald of anguish puts in work here (if you run it) by turning the useless artifacts into removal spells and being a big flying beater. While some of the artifacts in the deck rely on activated abilities (especially the combo, bauble, opal, and pentad prism) some don't (Ensnaring bridge most notably).
Rest in Peace is decent against us for turning off crucible, turning off swordcombo, and turning off academy ruins but is an even easier hate card to fight through because the rest of our deck is still live.
The most problematic hate cards are ancient grudge and shatterstorm/atifact sweeper, as they both are going to 2 for 1 you at minimum most of the time. Counter magic and discard is the only way for us to deal with shatterstorm as it even goes through welding jar.
I have yet to build or play this deck type yet but am very interested. I know that almost every list is running the turbo package of 3/4 mox/baubles. With these being absurdly expensive, I've been looking towards the classic thopter/sword decks which use Muddle the Mixture and Tolaria West to tutor the combo and Gifts Ungiven to gather all the pieces at once. (Gifts for thopter/sword/academy/tolaria). I'm wondering if adding gifts to a slower version of the deck would have any merit. Besides tutoring for thopter/sword you can find almost any other artifact with academy+tolaria. This also lets you bring in Unburial Rites+Elesh Norn/other large fatty from SB for alt wincon. Not to mention a package for potentially dealing with stony (snapcaster/esper charm/fragmentize w/tiny white splash). Idk if this even helps any match-ups more than just change the odds of all the match-ups. Just figured it was an interesting direction to go with it. Something like this:
Playtesting on cockatrice under the nickname FRDT and will be testing SBd matches against Tron with a friend shortly. Games are open to public if anyone wanna join/watch/discuss.
/edit: Reporting in. Wanted to do some testing for the blue sideboard plan, and specifically trying to address the Tron match-up. I've been crafting and testing a SB plan for consistency, in which I could achieve reliable T1-3 «serious» disruption into presenting a 3-4 turn clock. Here's what the mainboard looks like with such a configuration:
WELL I'm happy to report that my tiny sample size of test games made it look as though we now have a shot at Gb Tron!
I really think Pentad Prism does huge work for us, one card allowing us to both cast Tezz and be smashing on T3 already. This allows for the rest of our cards to get busy disrupting, namely: 3x Thoughtseize, 4x virtual copies of Ghost Quarter (counting X-Map and T-West as such) paired with 2x Surgical Extraction which is often backbreaking to them, a Quicksilver Fountain, 2x Needles (with Whirs and Fair as additional copies) and one more disrupting clock in the form of Clique, plus Padeem and Jars to void their removal.
Some preliminary notes: in these testing games, we've been discussing lines and sometimes rewinding toward «the optimal line» for the active player to take. To little surprise, we've found out that very often the mindset of the Tezz player has to be «let's Jam this» -- you are totally, and by far, the beatdown. Also, you have to mulligan toward some form of disruption into some form of clock, and/or setup. Rough guidelines are: you have 3 turns to disrupt them as hard as you can and start the beatdown before they recover anywhere from 3 to 5 turns later. Additional disruption or answer to their answer you can come up with, will buy you additional turns. Of course there are infinite variations to this, but this is the overall framework I was working with, and what I tried to achieve consistency in during the preliminary testing phase. Now onto the games.
So I won 3 games (3 post-board games) to his 2 (1 pre-board, 1 post-board).
G1 (pre-board): On the play, my quick 5/5 beats meet Oblivion Stone and I'm dead. Typical pre-board Tron game. Here his Collective Brutality took away my Whir -- although I won't mention it, this has happened many, many times throughout the matches. Another note: Prisms are Ugin-proof (anything colorless is). This came up when evaluating lines of play. Could be useful sometimes. 0-1.
G2 (post-board from here on): On the play again, T1 Bauble reveals a Thoughtseize on top of my library and I elect not to crack my Delta so that I have double Thoughtseize up next turn. T2 double Seize takes both his Sylvan Scrying and leave him with non-Tron mana and some stars. This punches a hole big enough for me to resolve Tezz into and beat him down to dead before he draws an answer. 1-1.
G3: On the draw, I keep a hand full of disruption but am mana-short and can't get it on before he starts spitting out Wurmcoil Engines. I manage to resolve a Bridge to stabilize at 8 life and even get the Crucible + GQ soft lock going but he topdecks a Nature's Claim which I have no answer for and I'm dead. There was an interesting play when he cast a World Breaker targeting the Needle that was holding Karn still, which in turn would've eaten the Bridge and allow him to beat me down (dead) again. Well this time Brutality hadn't tooken my Whir away, so his Breaker trigger was met by my Whir for another Needle, which felt real good. And ultimately proved insufficient, however. 1-2.
G4: On the play, I get early GQ + Surgical Extraction a Tron land, Clique his topdecked O-Stone away and get some faerie beats in. Beatdown window is effective, while I Needle this and that. After a couple of turns of flying blue bolting his Tronface, Tezzeret resolves and he is smashed dead within our next turn. Didn't get time to equip Clique with Sword of the Meek unfortunately, opponent was dead before I ever get the chance 2-2.
G5: On the draw, I open on GQ + Extraction again and resolve Tezz two turns later off a Prism that's now beating down. Then his T3 is a natural O-Stone. Bauble shows me that there's another O-Stone right on top of his library. So I elect to +1 Tezz because putting the opponent to 5 life means very little if we lose the whole board and go to topdecks, so I'd rather dig for a Needle, and wouldn't mind finding a Jar. Deck gives me Thopter Foundry, yayzies. One last swing, he's at ten now. I lose everything to the Stone, so I jam the Foundry and the Opal I've been gripping onto and pray. They're met by his next Stone. But Inventors' Fair and Welding Jar come up next. Fair finds me a Needle right on time and he can't respond to it by blowing everything up because, for the most part, everything beside the Foundry is kind of irrelevant and I've got the Welding Jar up anyway. So once the Needle has turned the Stone off, I go full desperation squadron mode and transform all the other trinkets into thopteros, presenting a three-turn clock. I draw a Bauble that I elect to crack at his end of turn since +1 thopter won't change the clock he's on, it would just prevent Claim/Karn/Breaker from gaining him a turn really. Bauble reveals that he has a Karn sitting on top and cantrips into Tezzeret, which I get to cast and swing with for the win right there. 3-2 Tezz.
More to come. I encourage you guys to work on this match-up if you get the chance!
@Radouf - I have not been playing as much Tezzeret as I would like to since I recently bought into Bant Eldrazi and am trying to master that deck. However I do have some ideas on the Tron match up.
- Quicksliver Fountain. This has been reasonable for me but I think Ghost Quarter/Crucible may be equally as effective while having upside in other matches.
- Ensoul Artifact. Game 1 against most of the field the card is pretty weak given that it turns on our opponents removal. However in game 2-3 we may be able to play this as a way to jam a fast clock against tron and combo. In the lists playing multiple zero's it is likely 5 power with haste on turn 2. Clocks don't get much faster than that.
- Thought-Knot Seer. We can play this as early as turn 3 but colorless is very difficult. However this can rapidly swing the Tron match up by taking their top end and going face while they look to recover.
- Chalice of the Void. Tron relies heavily on 1 drops and this has been my most successful method thus far. It locks out Chromatic Sphere, Chromatic Star, Expedition Map, Ancient Stirrings and sideboard Nature's Claim. This is usually enough to slow them down while we beat down with 5/5 creatures or Thopter/Sword.
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I believe it ultimately comes down to "Would you run a deck with 56 cards if you were allowed?"
as far as your pros and cons list goes, I think both cons aren't exactly fair assessments.
First off the first con "Could have been X silver bullet". EE and ratchet bomb aren't prime whir targets, and the turbo list already has both pithing needle and relic. EE and chalice are great Tolaria West targets so I could see the argument for their inclusion, but personally I would stick to baubles and look at parts of the disruption package if you want more disruption.
The second con I think you have flipped backwards. Cantrips, especially free cantrips, means a much bigger range of keepable hands. It represents a free way to replace itself, and along with a single fetchland is also a scry, meaning any hand with it in it gains a few extra points towards keepability.
It isn't a a humongous gamechanger powerhouse either, like you may be expecting. This is one of those cards that works its magic by just giving slight advantages over tons of games by just smoothing the deck down by 4 cards. The synergies are just gravy for this deck, and are what make it better than something like serum visions.
I'd like to ask about the "turbo package". In my mind, this means lists running 4x Mishra's Bauble, 3x Mox Opal (with the usual 4x Pentad Prism). My baubles finally arrived and I've been testing a little. Right now, I am sort of struggling to see the benefit.
As I see it, you gain:
+Chances for explosive hands, with greater chance to draw mox opal and have it active, also more 0 cost artifacts to fuel improvise.
+Better topdecking, with more redraws and pseudo-scrys.
+More ways to arm Revolt on Fatal Push.
+Run fewer lands, which improves effectiveness of Tezzeret's +1 and chances of topdecking an artifact (where that matters).
But, on the flipside:
-Have to skimp on bullets; lists on turbo package may skip on maindeck Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle, Ratchet Bomb, Relic of Progenitus, Nihil Spellbomb. This can stretch your sideboard and also I have been saved by these cards G1 many times.
-Riskier keeps when mulliganing - Mishra's Bauble is a redraw and often a pseudo-scry, but if you keep a hand with one or more then there is a risk that the redraw does not translate to a relevant card.
These pros/cons seem fine. However, (from my admittedly limited testing so far,) it seems like it's only relatively rarely that I get a benefit from the turbo package (e.g. a hand where a mox is on that would not otherwise have been, or a useful pseudo-scry, or an earlier/ meaningfully bigger whir). It's not like (for example) the turbo package allows us to land T2 Tezz with any meaningful degree of reliability or anything; T3 is still the Tezz-Turn. It feels like on average, I got more value from the bullets (and, particularly, bullet diversity) that I was packing before.
Like I say, I've really only just begun testing, but I'm not really feeling the utility of the "turbo package" as I'd hoped; I'm wondering if it's actually any better than my previous list. Can someone (maybe with more experience using it) suggest benefits that I've missed out above? Maybe I am missing something.
My version is slightly more linear than the other versions I've been seeing and I think the turbo package has real benefits here...
1) I run 4/3 thopter/sword, 4 tezz, and 3 bridges. So in a 56 card deck I'm likely going to have access to all as quickly as possible every game 1. 4 baubles helps improvise, deck thinning, tezz animate target, and scry. In addition, it helps empty my hand if I need to for bridge.
2) I noticed you didn't discuss Herald of anguish specifically. The card has been bonkers for me post-board (I run 3) and bauble/mox turbo him out pretty quickly.
3) I splash a 3rd color in my SB (red) so the package helps here too. One SB splash is Aether grid to make those artifacts useful again against stony silence. In addition, I side out my thopter/sword combo in stony matchups but keep the cheap artifacts for improvise (now 7 targets) and hand-dumping.
4) I don't run discard as I stay linear. Therefore, I have access to the silver bullets (nihil, relic, ratchet, needle, jar) maindeck.
@Radouf - I have not been playing as much Tezzeret as I would like to since I recently bought into Bant Eldrazi and am trying to master that deck. However I do have some ideas on the Tron match up.
- Quicksliver Fountain. This has been reasonable for me but I think Ghost Quarter/Crucible may be equally as effective while having upside in other matches.
- Ensoul Artifact. Game 1 against most of the field the card is pretty weak given that it turns on our opponents removal. However in game 2-3 we may be able to play this as a way to jam a fast clock against tron and combo. In the lists playing multiple zero's it is likely 5 power with haste on turn 2. Clocks don't get much faster than that.
- Thought-Knot Seer. We can play this as early as turn 3 but colorless is very difficult. However this can rapidly swing the Tron match up by taking their top end and going face while they look to recover.
- Chalice of the Void. Tron relies heavily on 1 drops and this has been my most successful method thus far. It locks out Chromatic Sphere, Chromatic Star, Expedition Map, Ancient Stirrings and sideboard Nature's Claim. This is usually enough to slow them down while we beat down with 5/5 creatures or Thopter/Sword.
Thanks for the input pal! I agree with most of what you said, some of these pieces are swappable. I wish the Mechanized Production (anti-Stony Silence tech) could do double-duty in being useful against Tron as well. I was thinking either Liliana, Herald, Thought-Knot Seer or Ensoul artifact as well, however they all have their downsides with Ensoul having the biggest blowout potential in the face of Nature's claim.
Now get some Eldrazi experience and bring us some valuable insights back
I'd like to ask about the "turbo package". In my mind, this means lists running 4x Mishra's Bauble, 3x Mox Opal (with the usual 4x Pentad Prism). My baubles finally arrived and I've been testing a little. Right now, I am sort of struggling to see the benefit.
As I see it, you gain:
+Chances for explosive hands, with greater chance to draw mox opal and have it active, also more 0 cost artifacts to fuel improvise.
+Better topdecking, with more redraws and pseudo-scrys.
+More ways to arm Revolt on Fatal Push.
+Run fewer lands, which improves effectiveness of Tezzeret's +1 and chances of topdecking an artifact (where that matters).
But, on the flipside:
-Have to skimp on bullets; lists on turbo package may skip on maindeck Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle, Ratchet Bomb, Relic of Progenitus, Nihil Spellbomb. This can stretch your sideboard and also I have been saved by these cards G1 many times.
-Riskier keeps when mulliganing - Mishra's Bauble is a redraw and often a pseudo-scry, but if you keep a hand with one or more then there is a risk that the redraw does not translate to a relevant card.
These pros/cons seem fine. However, (from my admittedly limited testing so far,) it seems like it's only relatively rarely that I get a benefit from the turbo package (e.g. a hand where a mox is on that would not otherwise have been, or a useful pseudo-scry, or an earlier/ meaningfully bigger whir). It's not like (for example) the turbo package allows us to land T2 Tezz with any meaningful degree of reliability or anything; T3 is still the Tezz-Turn. It feels like on average, I got more value from the bullets (and, particularly, bullet diversity) that I was packing before.
Like I say, I've really only just begun testing, but I'm not really feeling the utility of the "turbo package" as I'd hoped; I'm wondering if it's actually any better than my previous list. Can someone (maybe with more experience using it) suggest benefits that I've missed out above? Maybe I am missing something.
Velocity, edges and synergy.
It's true that the extent of their effects are mostly hard to grasp, but I can say this: ever since I'm on the full playset of Baubles (and have taken the time to figure out lines properly; ie. how to manage that Bauble is basically «the card hidden under»), I always seem to topdeck on time, reach metalcraft on time, get to improvise on time, always hit with Tezz, etc.
it seems like it's only relatively rarely that I get a benefit from the turbo package (e.g. a hand where a mox is on that would not otherwise have been, or a useful pseudo-scry, or an earlier/ meaningfully bigger whir)
This. Except fact is: you get all of them, here and there, continuously. That's where Bauble's effects are at.
I agree with @OnlyTigerlol that building with Bauble does not keep you off Bullets, you can very well include more if you like. And also that I love having Baubles in my opener as it scries and synergizes massively with the rest of the deck. It is true that it's hidden information and makes your keep or mull decision tougher, however I've come to just «trust» the deck and go for it. And it rewards you. Like in the Gerry Thompson serie where he keeps punting, small and big; you can just «ride the deck» and it'll take you places. This is quite amazing!
Congrats for the great info you provided. I am planing to use a tezz + whir deck in modern. And I have some thoughts to share...
1) I think we must play at least with 3-2 pieces of the combo. I know we have whir to search for but assemble the combo naturaly also is good;
2) I think we must play with 4 inquisition 4 push and 3 brutality (at minimum). Why? Because we must slow our opponents on t1 and 2;
3) Finally, Why not play with the full set of river of tears and sunken ruins? We must improve our chances to UUU.
This is the list that I'll start my tests...
4 tezzeret, agent of bolas
4 whir of invention
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 pentad prism
4 mishra's bauble
4 fatal push
3 thopter foundry
3 collective brutality
2 sword of the meek
2 ensnaring bridge
1 pithing needle
1 welding jar
1 nihil spellbomb
1 spellskite
4 darslick shores
4 sunken ruins
4 river of tears
4 polluted delta
2 watery grave
1 island
1 swamp
1 academy ruins
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
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Do we have ways of beating either other than discard?
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Aggro decks - I mean you hav IoK, Push, Crane, Brutality to buy time to either get the combo out or get a bridge down hellbent. Certainly 1/1s are harder to bridge than wild nacatls but its a perfectly acceptable plan.
Cycle lands: I seriously doubt it.
One other neat interaction I've found: echoing truth + herald of anguish. I've always said truth is great UB removal if you have lilianas and servicable with late game IoK/Thoughtseize (2-for-1 but what else can you do with discard late game). Herals' liliana-like effect is great when they're hellbent with herald out.
I've been playing 4 talisman 0 opal 0 prism and I have to say, not once have I ever felt like I wished the talismans would be either card. I'm often playing on 4-5 mana total with the talismans, situations where an empty prism would be frustrating, I'm also often not showing metalcraft until turn 4, so opal would not be letting me cast 4 drops on turn 3 or multiple spells/tapped lands on turn 3.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
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Bicycle land has to be the worst name since tangoland. It's a dual that cycles, ergo it's a Cycle Dual. Less syllables, more descriptive. /End rant
Anyways, not too many are running Vedalken Shackles these days, but the cycle duals could be good there. Now we have 12 modern legal Islands that produce black mana, 16 if you include Polluted Delta. A mono Island Mana base is possible. Not too sure that Shackles is great, given that it can't really nab a deaths shadow or tarmogoyf until the late game...But in combination with Dismember or something from Amonkhet yet to be spoiled (-1-1 counter theme), it could be time for some shackles action.
@BadMcFadden: Truth + Herald is a nice catch. In many respects, Herald really is Lili on legs.
About Talismans. Well more about Prism, I've noticed that powering out a T3 Tezz with Prism itself still untapped and available for suiting up and beating face, for against Tron for example, is really valuable. On it's own. Although it grinds better, Talisman won't give you that. That's an upside for running Prism.
Bottom line, keep looking for % points where they matter most.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
I agree - wasn't advocating for shackles so much as stating what type of build the cycle duals would benefit. As in, I don't think the cycle duals are great for the prototypical lists.
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Executioner's Capsule
1x Expedition Map
4x Mishra's Bauble
3x Mox Opal
4x Pentad Prism
1x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Sword of the Meek
3x Thopter Foundry
2x Welding Jar
Land (21)
1x Academy Ruins
4x Darkslick Shores
2x Flooded Strand
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Inventors' Fair
2x Island
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
3x Watery Grave
1x Tolaria West
3x Fatal Push
4x Whir of Invention
Planeswalker (4)
4x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Sorcery (3)
3x Collective Brutality
2x Chalice of the Void
1x Damnation
1x Flaying Tendrils
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
3x Thoughtseize
1x Witchbane Orb
This is what I am starting to run. Only a week on the deck (and paper only) so my effective matches are under 20 at this point.
My biggest challenge had been moving from game a state where I can be behind my Ensnaring Bridge into a position where I can close out. There are plenty of games where I can go straight to Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek and close out quickly but the deck suffers from bad topdecking.
The deck is fast when it goes off, but dreadfully slow if you get behind the bridge without a Tezz or the combo half assembled already. We have been talking about Expedition Map, Tolaria West[c/] and Inventor's Fair for a while and I am going all in and trying it. As others have stated, the opportunity cost is low but it could help us get out of top decking and get the combo going a turn or two earlier (which would have won me a few games which I instead lost).
Where I differ more from others is in the sideboard. I have yet to test the two Chalice of the Void but they are there to help trounce some Tron, Burn, DS and others who rely fairly heavily on their 1 drops. The other major change is the addition of three Surgical Extraction in lieu of cards like Padeem, Consul of Innovation or Trading Post. Both of these have felt slow, being at 4 CMC, and not worth the payoff. The Surgical Extraction would have been incredibly clutch against Tron or other Combo decks which can get setup or counter me quicker than I can setup.
I am having a blast running this and my opponents either have a blast, or in the case on one Death's Shadow player, curses you out for running a prison deck.
I would love to talk sideboard as that is where this deck should be focusing efforts. The main deck seems to have a few flexible slots but overall feels solid.
Edit: Liliana of the Veil vs Herald of Anguish - This is an interesting topic. If I were to slot these in they would replace the Chalice's in the sideboard most likely. I feel LotV is far superior as it gives us an additional win condition behind the Ensnaring Bridge and still has lots synergies well with that strategy. I have tried Herald a few times and it either comes down too late or is only discarding my opponents hand from behind the bridge.
Online has been OK. I've recently been struggling against U/W control, as they annoyingly have been NOT siding out their creature hate, and my Heralds and Padeems die quickly. Their card advantage and endless cryptic commands just always get there in games 2 and 3. Which is why Lili is coming in, and I'll be going back to Ashiok in the side.
I still don't know why no one seems to be running Serum Visions. I was advocating Baubles a while ago, and am glad they're becoming more common. Visions is just as good a card in this deck, imo.
To be honest, I'm looking at a second Mox Opal or a second Sword of the Meek. Mox just seems like it wants more copies and Sword, well, if they have a way to strip it we lose a valuable win con. I do agree that Etched Champion (or really any creature, aside Spellskite) is worth this spot.
Another card I've been putting under consideration is Metallic Rebuke. I know it's a 3 drop Mana Leak and they get worse as the game tends to wear on. Also, I know this is more of a tap-out balls-to-the-wall style of deck where we want to squeeze them early but, especially in the "Turbo version", wouldn't it be nice to be able to go "Blue Source, Mox, Bauble" and be able to hold up counter mana for whatever they have in mind in G2 and G3? Get yourself all set up on turn 2 to get the combo on turn 3? You can hold up counter mana effectively to counter a Stony Silence or a Rest in Piece (two pieces we don't like to see). I know a number of us run discard, but personally, I tend to see my opponent topdeck the sideboard tech or answer just after I try to rip it from their hand, making counter seem a little more applicable than hand disruption. Thoughts?
Here is my deck list
1x Academy Ruins
2x Botanical Sanctum
2x Breeding Pool
2x Darkslick Shores
1x Forest
1x Island
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
Artifacts (11)
3x Krark-Clan Ironworks
4x Sword of the Meek
4x Thopter Foundry
4x Ancient Stirrings
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Serum Visions
2x Thoughtseize
3x Traverse the Ulvenwald
Instants (7)
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Fatal Push
4x Muddle the Mixture
Creatures (7)
1x Eternal Witness
2x Myr Retriever
1x Sly Requisitioner
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Beast Within
2x Fatal Push
1x Myr Retriever
2x Nature's Claim
3x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Spell Pierce
It is a bit different that the Tezzeret version, but obviously it uses the Thopter Sword Combo. I didnt know if I should post it here because of that reason, but figured might as well.
Has anyone tried Krark-Clan Ironworks? I did not see that in the previous versions. I found it to be extremely strong.
Any thoughts on my list would be appreciated, but I am excited to see the Tezzeret version develop as well.
Metallic Rebuke is too bad of a card to run. It sounds good because "counter-spell with artifact synergy? Awesome!" but in practice it is a worse manaleak 50% of the time and a pretty bad top-deck (In the late-game scenario you described, they just pay the 3 to cast ancient grudge/stony).
I believe you are looking in the right direction as counter-magic is pretty potent at dealing with the hate cards. I run 2 negate in the sideboard for this reason.
I think post-board if they are playing white, its a pretty sure thing they are playing at least a couple stony silences. Good thing is stony silence is actually not a huge issue for the deck to deal with as long as you expect it and don't keep a hand exceptionally weak to it. Herald of anguish puts in work here (if you run it) by turning the useless artifacts into removal spells and being a big flying beater. While some of the artifacts in the deck rely on activated abilities (especially the combo, bauble, opal, and pentad prism) some don't (Ensnaring bridge most notably).
Rest in Peace is decent against us for turning off crucible, turning off swordcombo, and turning off academy ruins but is an even easier hate card to fight through because the rest of our deck is still live.
The most problematic hate cards are ancient grudge and shatterstorm/atifact sweeper, as they both are going to 2 for 1 you at minimum most of the time. Counter magic and discard is the only way for us to deal with shatterstorm as it even goes through welding jar.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
2x Academy Ruins
4x Darkslick Shores
3x Flooded Strand
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Inventors' Fair
3x Island
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
1x Tolaria West
Artifacts (21)
1x Conjurer's Bauble
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Executioner's Capsule
1x Expedition Map
1x Nihil Spellbomb
4x Pentad Prism
1x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Sword of the Meek
3x Thopter Foundry
2x Welding Jar
2x Collected Brutality
4x Fatal Push
2x Gifts Ungiven
4x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3x Whir of Invention
1x Damnation
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Esper Charm
1x Fragmentize
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Herald of Anguish
1x Mechanized Production
1x Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1x Snapcaster Mage
3x Thoughtseize
1x Unburial Rites
1x Witchbane Orb
Again I haven't tested or anything. Just seeing what you all think.
/edit: Reporting in. Wanted to do some testing for the blue sideboard plan, and specifically trying to address the Tron match-up. I've been crafting and testing a SB plan for consistency, in which I could achieve reliable T1-3 «serious» disruption into presenting a 3-4 turn clock. Here's what the mainboard looks like with such a configuration:
4x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4x Whir of Invention
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Expedition Map
2x Thopter Foundry
2x Sword of the Meek
4x Mishra's Bauble
Bullets
1x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Welding jar
Disruption
1x Executioner's Capsule
4x Fatal Push
2x Collective Brutality
3x Mox Opal
4x Pentad Prism
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Inventors' Fair
1x Academy Ruins
1x Tolaria West
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
3x Watery Grave
4x Darkslick Shores
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Pithing Needle
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Collective Brutality
1x Flaying Tendrils
1x Damnation
1x Quicksilver Fountain
3x Thoughtseize
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1x Mechanized Production
1x Witchbane Orb
2x Surgical Extraction
4x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4x Whir of Invention
1x Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Expedition Map
2x Thopter Foundry
1x Sword of the Meek
4x Mishra's Bauble
Bullets
2x Pithing Needle
1x Quicksilver Fountain
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Welding jar
Disruption
3x Thoughtseize
1x Vendilion Clique
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Mox Opal
4x Pentad Prism
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Inventors' Fair
1x Academy Ruins
1x Tolaria West
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
3x Watery Grave
4x Darkslick Shores
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Collective Brutality
1x Flaying Tendrils
1x Damnation
1x Mechanized Production
1x Witchbane Orb
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Executioner's Capsule
4x Fatal Push
2x Collective Brutality
1x Sword of the Meek
I really think Pentad Prism does huge work for us, one card allowing us to both cast Tezz and be smashing on T3 already. This allows for the rest of our cards to get busy disrupting, namely: 3x Thoughtseize, 4x virtual copies of Ghost Quarter (counting X-Map and T-West as such) paired with 2x Surgical Extraction which is often backbreaking to them, a Quicksilver Fountain, 2x Needles (with Whirs and Fair as additional copies) and one more disrupting clock in the form of Clique, plus Padeem and Jars to void their removal.
Some preliminary notes: in these testing games, we've been discussing lines and sometimes rewinding toward «the optimal line» for the active player to take. To little surprise, we've found out that very often the mindset of the Tezz player has to be «let's Jam this» -- you are totally, and by far, the beatdown. Also, you have to mulligan toward some form of disruption into some form of clock, and/or setup. Rough guidelines are: you have 3 turns to disrupt them as hard as you can and start the beatdown before they recover anywhere from 3 to 5 turns later. Additional disruption or answer to their answer you can come up with, will buy you additional turns. Of course there are infinite variations to this, but this is the overall framework I was working with, and what I tried to achieve consistency in during the preliminary testing phase. Now onto the games.
So I won 3 games (3 post-board games) to his 2 (1 pre-board, 1 post-board).
G1 (pre-board): On the play, my quick 5/5 beats meet Oblivion Stone and I'm dead. Typical pre-board Tron game. Here his Collective Brutality took away my Whir -- although I won't mention it, this has happened many, many times throughout the matches. Another note: Prisms are Ugin-proof (anything colorless is). This came up when evaluating lines of play. Could be useful sometimes. 0-1.
G2 (post-board from here on): On the play again, T1 Bauble reveals a Thoughtseize on top of my library and I elect not to crack my Delta so that I have double Thoughtseize up next turn. T2 double Seize takes both his Sylvan Scrying and leave him with non-Tron mana and some stars. This punches a hole big enough for me to resolve Tezz into and beat him down to dead before he draws an answer. 1-1.
G3: On the draw, I keep a hand full of disruption but am mana-short and can't get it on before he starts spitting out Wurmcoil Engines. I manage to resolve a Bridge to stabilize at 8 life and even get the Crucible + GQ soft lock going but he topdecks a Nature's Claim which I have no answer for and I'm dead. There was an interesting play when he cast a World Breaker targeting the Needle that was holding Karn still, which in turn would've eaten the Bridge and allow him to beat me down (dead) again. Well this time Brutality hadn't tooken my Whir away, so his Breaker trigger was met by my Whir for another Needle, which felt real good. And ultimately proved insufficient, however. 1-2.
G4: On the play, I get early GQ + Surgical Extraction a Tron land, Clique his topdecked O-Stone away and get some faerie beats in. Beatdown window is effective, while I Needle this and that. After a couple of turns of flying blue bolting his Tronface, Tezzeret resolves and he is smashed dead within our next turn. Didn't get time to equip Clique with Sword of the Meek unfortunately, opponent was dead before I ever get the chance 2-2.
G5: On the draw, I open on GQ + Extraction again and resolve Tezz two turns later off a Prism that's now beating down. Then his T3 is a natural O-Stone. Bauble shows me that there's another O-Stone right on top of his library. So I elect to +1 Tezz because putting the opponent to 5 life means very little if we lose the whole board and go to topdecks, so I'd rather dig for a Needle, and wouldn't mind finding a Jar. Deck gives me Thopter Foundry, yayzies. One last swing, he's at ten now. I lose everything to the Stone, so I jam the Foundry and the Opal I've been gripping onto and pray. They're met by his next Stone. But Inventors' Fair and Welding Jar come up next. Fair finds me a Needle right on time and he can't respond to it by blowing everything up because, for the most part, everything beside the Foundry is kind of irrelevant and I've got the Welding Jar up anyway. So once the Needle has turned the Stone off, I go full desperation squadron mode and transform all the other trinkets into thopteros, presenting a three-turn clock. I draw a Bauble that I elect to crack at his end of turn since +1 thopter won't change the clock he's on, it would just prevent Claim/Karn/Breaker from gaining him a turn really. Bauble reveals that he has a Karn sitting on top and cantrips into Tezzeret, which I get to cast and swing with for the win right there. 3-2 Tezz.
More to come. I encourage you guys to work on this match-up if you get the chance!
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
- Quicksliver Fountain. This has been reasonable for me but I think Ghost Quarter/Crucible may be equally as effective while having upside in other matches.
- Ensoul Artifact. Game 1 against most of the field the card is pretty weak given that it turns on our opponents removal. However in game 2-3 we may be able to play this as a way to jam a fast clock against tron and combo. In the lists playing multiple zero's it is likely 5 power with haste on turn 2. Clocks don't get much faster than that.
- Thought-Knot Seer. We can play this as early as turn 3 but colorless is very difficult. However this can rapidly swing the Tron match up by taking their top end and going face while they look to recover.
- Chalice of the Void. Tron relies heavily on 1 drops and this has been my most successful method thus far. It locks out Chromatic Sphere, Chromatic Star, Expedition Map, Ancient Stirrings and sideboard Nature's Claim. This is usually enough to slow them down while we beat down with 5/5 creatures or Thopter/Sword.
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
I believe it ultimately comes down to "Would you run a deck with 56 cards if you were allowed?"
as far as your pros and cons list goes, I think both cons aren't exactly fair assessments.
First off the first con "Could have been X silver bullet". EE and ratchet bomb aren't prime whir targets, and the turbo list already has both pithing needle and relic. EE and chalice are great Tolaria West targets so I could see the argument for their inclusion, but personally I would stick to baubles and look at parts of the disruption package if you want more disruption.
The second con I think you have flipped backwards. Cantrips, especially free cantrips, means a much bigger range of keepable hands. It represents a free way to replace itself, and along with a single fetchland is also a scry, meaning any hand with it in it gains a few extra points towards keepability.
It isn't a a humongous gamechanger powerhouse either, like you may be expecting. This is one of those cards that works its magic by just giving slight advantages over tons of games by just smoothing the deck down by 4 cards. The synergies are just gravy for this deck, and are what make it better than something like serum visions.
My version is slightly more linear than the other versions I've been seeing and I think the turbo package has real benefits here...
1) I run 4/3 thopter/sword, 4 tezz, and 3 bridges. So in a 56 card deck I'm likely going to have access to all as quickly as possible every game 1. 4 baubles helps improvise, deck thinning, tezz animate target, and scry. In addition, it helps empty my hand if I need to for bridge.
2) I noticed you didn't discuss Herald of anguish specifically. The card has been bonkers for me post-board (I run 3) and bauble/mox turbo him out pretty quickly.
3) I splash a 3rd color in my SB (red) so the package helps here too. One SB splash is Aether grid to make those artifacts useful again against stony silence. In addition, I side out my thopter/sword combo in stony matchups but keep the cheap artifacts for improvise (now 7 targets) and hand-dumping.
4) I don't run discard as I stay linear. Therefore, I have access to the silver bullets (nihil, relic, ratchet, needle, jar) maindeck.
Hope this helps.
Now get some Eldrazi experience and bring us some valuable insights back
It's true that the extent of their effects are mostly hard to grasp, but I can say this: ever since I'm on the full playset of Baubles (and have taken the time to figure out lines properly; ie. how to manage that Bauble is basically «the card hidden under»), I always seem to topdeck on time, reach metalcraft on time, get to improvise on time, always hit with Tezz, etc.
This. Except fact is: you get all of them, here and there, continuously. That's where Bauble's effects are at.
I agree with @OnlyTigerlol that building with Bauble does not keep you off Bullets, you can very well include more if you like. And also that I love having Baubles in my opener as it scries and synergizes massively with the rest of the deck. It is true that it's hidden information and makes your keep or mull decision tougher, however I've come to just «trust» the deck and go for it. And it rewards you. Like in the Gerry Thompson serie where he keeps punting, small and big; you can just «ride the deck» and it'll take you places. This is quite amazing!
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
Congrats for the great info you provided. I am planing to use a tezz + whir deck in modern. And I have some thoughts to share...
1) I think we must play at least with 3-2 pieces of the combo. I know we have whir to search for but assemble the combo naturaly also is good;
2) I think we must play with 4 inquisition 4 push and 3 brutality (at minimum). Why? Because we must slow our opponents on t1 and 2;
3) Finally, Why not play with the full set of river of tears and sunken ruins? We must improve our chances to UUU.
This is the list that I'll start my tests...
4 tezzeret, agent of bolas
4 whir of invention
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 pentad prism
4 mishra's bauble
4 fatal push
3 thopter foundry
3 collective brutality
2 sword of the meek
2 ensnaring bridge
1 pithing needle
1 welding jar
1 nihil spellbomb
1 spellskite
4 darslick shores
4 sunken ruins
4 river of tears
4 polluted delta
2 watery grave
1 island
1 swamp
1 academy ruins
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth