So I've not tested this yet but I've been wracking my mind for a SB card that can actually deal with tron. Everything we have in the cardpool is too slow and my attempt at countering everything they play fails because we need to tap out to pressure them in a significant way.
What about one or two copies of
Commandeer? If we grab a t3 Karn with it that is game over, right? Next turn hit a land and still have Karn??
I think with serums/tezzes/whirs/foundries we would have enough blue to have the requisite pitch cards.
Just wondering if anyone's ever tried it.
I used to play Mono-U Delver. It doesn't cut it. You might get the once, then they just play around it, making sure their t3 play is something like wurmcoil or worldbreaker. It's sweet and feels great to pull off but you only get someone once, and sometimes if their first threat isn't karn, not even once. I You can probably support it but the card isn't amazing, and we also don't have blue cards other than visions we can really afford to pitch anyway.
Thinking about what radouf said about possibly playing altar of the brood, while i like it as an additional wincon for things like infinite life gain, and it does work well as a cheap artifact for whir, I also think there may be something to it as while some incidental milling might not win us the game, it certainly makes pithing needle and surgical better, for seeing what our opponent is playing, and letting us surgical things we wouldnt normally be able to easily get in the grave, like tron lands and such. So i think there may be something to it.
I still can't get my head around pentad prism. Everytime I put it back in my deck it is just pure disappointment. I draw it in my opener and say "do I want to cast pentad prism t2? Or do I want to cast foundry, sword, serum, etc. The answer invariably is play the do-something card over the do-nothing card. The only time I'm happy with t2 prism is when I have decay or muddle in hand and can play it out knowing I'll be able to respond if needed, and be ahead some mana if not. Once in a blue moon I get to do t3 tez swing with prism, or t2 prism t3 whir for herald, but these are extremely corner cases and most times the extra turn would not make a huge difference in the outcome (either they have an answer for tez/herald and im sunk or they dont and i win).
Maybe that's just playstyle or something I don't know, people are still running it so it can't be as bad as it feels to me. But yeah I'm back on 2 chromatic stars instead for now.
Also despite no discard I put the darkslicks back in. Turn 2 foundry turn 3 whir still comes up as a sequence and having to take the watery grave damage can be murder vs aggro. That's how I look at it overall - shores provide some points vs aggro and don't cost much vs midrange/control (the odds we are desperate for a 4th mana AND our only option is a shores is very low).
Still liking 2 explosives main. They are quite flexible. Ironically I have seen more situations where being able to whir for a ratchet bomb would have been nice just for the sheer tutor-ability of it even if I then need an extra turn or two before blowing it. Still think explosives is the better pick overall due to being able to dump it for bridge/opal/whir and the surprise value. I do wonder with 2 explosives to what extent I need damnation or liliana in the MD.
Finally, I just don't know what we're supposed to do about valakut and tron. I can win valakut g1 with sieve if things go decent, but now they are running maindeck relics which costs us another mana to execute our combo with (have to always leave 1 up so as not to lose sword, making sieve require 6 mana). Post board if they have any artifact removal I do not see how we can win unless we just have the double welding jar opener. ancient grudge is so cheap and easily knocks us back several turns as they march on to scapeshift/titan. Tron has too many ways to break the combo and the bridge and everything we can do. I wish the quicksilver fountain thing worked (esp if it would work vs both of these decks) but it really didn't seem to. Tron goes from miserable to unbearable once they bring in nature's claims. I guess chalice is maybe what you need vs them, but you chalice on 1 now you can't needle the karn/ostone/ugin and then they worldbreaker/ulamog you anyways and good lord is this unwinnable.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
On the contrary I keep being impressed by Pentad Prism, even if its not an "action card" when we're down to top-decking. Its enabling our fastest hands with Opals, its both fixing (Blood Moon? No biggie.) and acceleration for Whir and T3 Tezz. But it's also there to mint up and swing after having done it's primary duty. In my testing vs Tron btw, T3 Tezz into smashing Prism has been key to many of my wins. And then it also allows to dump your hand faster on the field against hyper-aggro, and lastly is always available for sacc'ing to Foundry to play around Extractions, Relics and Oozes. IMO it has lots of utility. I understand cutting some for more action-packed topdecks, but personally I like my synergy. And you're right, it may very well be a matter of playstyle.
Valakut: shred their hand to pieces. Then combo or Tezz in the midgame to start pulling away. When they start their late game stuff (Titan, or Valakut triggers), go for Witchbane Orb and Bridge in whichever order is needed. Then dig for Jars or multiples. Or closethe game with Thopter chips, Tezz Ult or Time Sieve. Lili is also nice continuous pressure on them, and Quicksilver Fountain can turn off their non-Scapeshifted Valakuts. In the face of Shatterstorm yeah, I have nothing. Targeted artifact destruction you can try to overload (with so many pieces they have to remove they just cant free themselves out of the prison).
See in my sig for some tips on vs Tron. Dunno why you hating on Quicksilver Fountain; although it's never amazing, casting (or Whir-ing for) it on the play will tip them off Tron for a while. Jump in the window created and that's one way to win. GQ+Surgical is another. But you really gotta get in there while they're off balance. And the smashing Prism play is one of your best tools for that! That's why in my Tron-smasher version Prism and Tezz are both up to a full MB playset.
If you want to adress these Big Mana match-ups and explore some more tech, there's also Shadow of Doubt that theoretically should work, though I haven't really tested it.
/e: Yeah let's enjoy ourselves while Gx Tron is at a historic low. We might have to adjust our builds sometimes soon.
In my experience trying to be the beatdown on tron with a non-aggro deck is more or less a hail mary plan, and one that only works well if you can at least path the wurmcoils (e.g. control decks slamming t2 snap t3 clique and swinging for the fences). The only cards I can think of that truly hamper both tron and valakut would be leonin arbiter and blood moon. Perhaps its possible to warp this deck hard enough to play blood moons? Opals/Talismans/Prisms/Stars and a high basic count with fetchlands maybe gets there?
so I finished 2-1 at an FNM style tourney tonight losing to valakut with an almost jundy GR feel. It was impossible. Would have probably ended 1-49 over 50 games.
I'm just wracking my mind and there isn't a card under 4 mana that deals with valakut or tron. I think it's a major problem with the format because there is no access to nonbasic punishment, essentially. That's only cool if there aren't noninteractive game ending lines available through nonbasics.
Hoogland is doing well with legacy tron and his only changes from modern tron are bayous for blooming marshes, a krakas and a eye of ugin. Seriously.
In short I think they overdid it for tron top end with ulamog and something needs to be done.
If nothings done with Aug 28th BR announcement our deck can never be serious and a major overhaul is probably needed.
Two things. I have been playing a one of big tez main and so far I totally love it. He has immediately ended games for me (and he can (and has been)) played turn two with my gemstone build with a prism!!!)
Second, I'm toying with playing main board shadow of doubts and snapcasters to try to answer Tron/Valakut. It's like an inverse of the very sad ghost quarter. You punk them and cantrip. I got in a few games this morning and it felt really good. As a kicker the snaps being able to eot your first whir for time sieve feels like a good, wholesome thing to be doing. I'm not going to call this THE answer but it feels like the lowest impact maindeck response to land we can run. It's also very very rarely dead in a fetch heavy format.
So for disruption, I have 3 Inquisition of Kozilek and 2 Collective Brutality.
I want to make room for 2 Lilianas. What do you guys recommend cutting? (Also cutting Executioner's capsule for a third Liliana).
@BadMcFadden - You're not wrong about prism, don't put it back in. Everyone will yell at me for saying that, as they always do, but your instincts and evaluation are correct, imo. I think you and I are the only ones who've decided not to play it for any extended length of time, for what that's worth.
About Tron and Valakut, what I like to do against them is... kill them with Saheeli combo. I play online, and what I've been doing is bouncing back and forh between Esper Thopters list, with heavy discard and Lili, and Jeskai thopters with saheeli (altar + coating) combo and blood moon. The former is gold against control and shadow, and tte latter has way better game against big mana but weaker to discard. The meta shifts back and forth and I try to pilot whichever deck I think will do better.
I have been toying with a grixis list that has the saheeli combo (altar not guardian) along with discard. I think I would just miss the white splash for stuff like fragmentize and canonist too much. But anyway, without a super quick clock in the form of combo, those matchups are always gonna suck.
@BadMcFadden - You're not wrong about prism, don't put it back in. Everyone will yell at me for saying that, as they always do, but your instincts and evaluation are correct, imo. I think you and I are the only ones who've decided not to play it for any extended length of time, for what that's worth.
About Tron and Valakut, what I like to do against them is... kill them with Saheeli combo. I play online, and what I've been doing is bouncing back and forh between Esper Thopters list, with heavy discard and Lili, and Jeskai thopters with saheeli (altar + coating) combo and blood moon. The former is gold against control and shadow, and tte latter has way better game against big mana but weaker to discard. The meta shifts back and forth and I try to pilot whichever deck I think will do better.
I have been toying with a grixis list that has the saheeli combo (altar not guardian) along with discard. I think I would just miss the white splash for stuff like fragmentize and canonist too much. But anyway, without a super quick clock in the form of combo, those matchups are always gonna suck.
I see a lot of people running serum visions and I understand their use. However, during testing, it wasn't rare that I'd have them in hand while relying on ensnaring bridge and the card locked me into having that one extra card that doomed me. Frankly, most of my games are focused almost entirely around bridge. Tez +1 gives me the option of not grabbing anything I can't cast and the whole point of whir is that you can find your combo pieces (I play 3/3 foundry/sword). But visions does not. Also, using IoK and thoughtseize in serum's place gives me 1) more control and a safer lock, and 2) an empty hand for bridge.
Does nobody have this issue? And if not, why not?
@The_Nobodys: Nobody's yelling at you, weirdo
@EddieClayton: it's a matter of consistency vs speed. The field isn't so blazing fast these days, so we can afford to up our consistency game and lock them opponents out harder when we do. However vs hyper-aggro decks, it is true that the full set of SV can be a liability as sometimes it allows them to slip under us. That's why against them you should cut them post-board. That was just discussed a couple pages back.
But the overall metagame-based consensus right now seems to be that we need the consistency and we need finding our stuff more than we need to rush-dump our hands. That being said, I can see a reasonable compromise in running more MB Collective Brutalities to help with the dumping, if hyper-aggro is rising in your local metagame.
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@radouf - My girlfriend must have been yelling at me when I was typing that.
@eddie clayton - To speak from experience, it's rare that I wouldn't cast a serum visions before casting a bridge, and if I do cast a bridge first, the 1 cmc of visions probably isn't holding me back too often from emptying my hand. I actually find visions helpful in getting below a bridge - by scrying away high cmc cards and making sure I hit my land drops.
So I have been trying a lot of different things to combat land decks and after 7-8 matches I think I may have found something very workable.
I took out SVs and needle for 4 spreading seas and a quicksilver fountain main.
I was doing it as frustrated landhate overkill but I have yet to have a game where I didn't whir for quicksilver as my first target. It has single handedly won me every game it's been out but one (a post sided game against valakut) against decks you wouldn't expect like skred red and abzan critters.
Best of all it gives us a legitimate threat against tron and valakut game one.
I think it's got hidden value because people don't know how to play against it so they hold lands thinking the flood counters will leave eventually but I have been able to foundry it away or end the game before I ever ran out of targets. So cards that force opponents to misplay make me very happy.
Interesting. Ive put fountain back in (sideboard) to get more experience with it. I also put one damnation main and consider it like the third ensnaring bridge that I cut long ago.
On spreading seas - I love the card in principal but when I was flirting with uw control there were a lot of games where 1u draw a card was nothing more than a slow path to defeat. For ub tez id be worried that casting t2 seas means not casting an artifact t2 and not being able to whir for combo pieces turn 3. Maybe thats a fair trade to fix the big mana matches though, so I will give it a try when I get back to brew mode.
Ive still got 2 guildmage 1 mindcrank in the board atm trying to assess if it does enough. It absolutely works but may be too situational (only good vs stony silence decks with few removal spells)
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* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
@Zinch - Saheeli and her combo is hard to evaluate, to be honest. I've dropped Felidar Guardian from my build, as he was just getting pushed and exiled left and right. The artifact combo requires burn to disrupt, which means a lot. I won turn 3 against Scapeshift, which was nice, but then lost games 2 and 3 because I couldn't open with a combo hand or find bloodmoon. She draws a lot of hate, and my opponent kept a 2 bolt hand game 2 to take her down (which is honestly fine because his hand was then super slow). She wins behind a bridge, which is nice, and she can ping opposing walkers. Altar of the brood can be quite nice on its own, too, capable of beating decks like UW control or other slow decks, but then it sucks to resolve it against storm or dredge without the combo coming on its heels. Occasionally it will let you surgical something like Valakut or Ad Nauseum. Coating is useless except for turning on opal and improvising for whir, or occasionally letting you turn extra lands into thopters when you're grinding black decks.
I still usually win with thopters, and if I can hide Saheeli in my hand in a game where I think thopters on their own are enough, then I try to do that, and vice versa when I can win with Saheeli. The nice thing about Saheeli is that opponents are forced to respect the insta-win, and you can plop her down early with 0 combo pieces and expect that they will attack her in some manner, or change their game-plan, buying you time.
I think I want to try a grixis list with 4 Saheeli, 2 coating, 2 altar (which is my current numbers), 3-4 IoK, 3 Brutality, and a Sieve in the board. There were a number of matches where a whir for sieve would have won, and I don't feel like the 2 combos together are overkill against big mana.
You use Liquimetal Coating. Target Saheeli, then -2 her targeting herself. Repeat ad nauseam for infinite ETBs for Altar.
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Question about that combo; lets say my opponent has emrakul. Can I claim I do infinite mill while they hit reshuffle triggers until the emrakul is the last card in their deck, then pass turn so they draw emrakul, then die on the following turn?
Or if they have 4 emrakuls - do it until the 4 emrakuls are on the library and win in 5 turns (assuming they cant discard it)
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* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
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I used to play Mono-U Delver. It doesn't cut it. You might get the once, then they just play around it, making sure their t3 play is something like wurmcoil or worldbreaker. It's sweet and feels great to pull off but you only get someone once, and sometimes if their first threat isn't karn, not even once. I You can probably support it but the card isn't amazing, and we also don't have blue cards other than visions we can really afford to pitch anyway.
Maybe that's just playstyle or something I don't know, people are still running it so it can't be as bad as it feels to me. But yeah I'm back on 2 chromatic stars instead for now.
Also despite no discard I put the darkslicks back in. Turn 2 foundry turn 3 whir still comes up as a sequence and having to take the watery grave damage can be murder vs aggro. That's how I look at it overall - shores provide some points vs aggro and don't cost much vs midrange/control (the odds we are desperate for a 4th mana AND our only option is a shores is very low).
Still liking 2 explosives main. They are quite flexible. Ironically I have seen more situations where being able to whir for a ratchet bomb would have been nice just for the sheer tutor-ability of it even if I then need an extra turn or two before blowing it. Still think explosives is the better pick overall due to being able to dump it for bridge/opal/whir and the surprise value. I do wonder with 2 explosives to what extent I need damnation or liliana in the MD.
Finally, I just don't know what we're supposed to do about valakut and tron. I can win valakut g1 with sieve if things go decent, but now they are running maindeck relics which costs us another mana to execute our combo with (have to always leave 1 up so as not to lose sword, making sieve require 6 mana). Post board if they have any artifact removal I do not see how we can win unless we just have the double welding jar opener. ancient grudge is so cheap and easily knocks us back several turns as they march on to scapeshift/titan. Tron has too many ways to break the combo and the bridge and everything we can do. I wish the quicksilver fountain thing worked (esp if it would work vs both of these decks) but it really didn't seem to. Tron goes from miserable to unbearable once they bring in nature's claims. I guess chalice is maybe what you need vs them, but you chalice on 1 now you can't needle the karn/ostone/ugin and then they worldbreaker/ulamog you anyways and good lord is this unwinnable.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
On the contrary I keep being impressed by Pentad Prism, even if its not an "action card" when we're down to top-decking. Its enabling our fastest hands with Opals, its both fixing (Blood Moon? No biggie.) and acceleration for Whir and T3 Tezz. But it's also there to mint up and swing after having done it's primary duty. In my testing vs Tron btw, T3 Tezz into smashing Prism has been key to many of my wins. And then it also allows to dump your hand faster on the field against hyper-aggro, and lastly is always available for sacc'ing to Foundry to play around Extractions, Relics and Oozes. IMO it has lots of utility. I understand cutting some for more action-packed topdecks, but personally I like my synergy. And you're right, it may very well be a matter of playstyle.
Valakut: shred their hand to pieces. Then combo or Tezz in the midgame to start pulling away. When they start their late game stuff (Titan, or Valakut triggers), go for Witchbane Orb and Bridge in whichever order is needed. Then dig for Jars or multiples. Or closethe game with Thopter chips, Tezz Ult or Time Sieve. Lili is also nice continuous pressure on them, and Quicksilver Fountain can turn off their non-Scapeshifted Valakuts. In the face of Shatterstorm yeah, I have nothing. Targeted artifact destruction you can try to overload (with so many pieces they have to remove they just cant free themselves out of the prison).
See in my sig for some tips on vs Tron. Dunno why you hating on Quicksilver Fountain; although it's never amazing, casting (or Whir-ing for) it on the play will tip them off Tron for a while. Jump in the window created and that's one way to win. GQ+Surgical is another. But you really gotta get in there while they're off balance. And the smashing Prism play is one of your best tools for that! That's why in my Tron-smasher version Prism and Tezz are both up to a full MB playset.
If you want to adress these Big Mana match-ups and explore some more tech, there's also Shadow of Doubt that theoretically should work, though I haven't really tested it.
/e: Yeah let's enjoy ourselves while Gx Tron is at a historic low. We might have to adjust our builds sometimes soon.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I'm just wracking my mind and there isn't a card under 4 mana that deals with valakut or tron. I think it's a major problem with the format because there is no access to nonbasic punishment, essentially. That's only cool if there aren't noninteractive game ending lines available through nonbasics.
Hoogland is doing well with legacy tron and his only changes from modern tron are bayous for blooming marshes, a krakas and a eye of ugin. Seriously.
In short I think they overdid it for tron top end with ulamog and something needs to be done.
If nothings done with Aug 28th BR announcement our deck can never be serious and a major overhaul is probably needed.
Just my gut feeling.
Second, I'm toying with playing main board shadow of doubts and snapcasters to try to answer Tron/Valakut. It's like an inverse of the very sad ghost quarter. You punk them and cantrip. I got in a few games this morning and it felt really good. As a kicker the snaps being able to eot your first whir for time sieve feels like a good, wholesome thing to be doing. I'm not going to call this THE answer but it feels like the lowest impact maindeck response to land we can run. It's also very very rarely dead in a fetch heavy format.
I want to make room for 2 Lilianas. What do you guys recommend cutting? (Also cutting Executioner's capsule for a third Liliana).
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
About Tron and Valakut, what I like to do against them is... kill them with Saheeli combo. I play online, and what I've been doing is bouncing back and forh between Esper Thopters list, with heavy discard and Lili, and Jeskai thopters with saheeli (altar + coating) combo and blood moon. The former is gold against control and shadow, and tte latter has way better game against big mana but weaker to discard. The meta shifts back and forth and I try to pilot whichever deck I think will do better.
I have been toying with a grixis list that has the saheeli combo (altar not guardian) along with discard. I think I would just miss the white splash for stuff like fragmentize and canonist too much. But anyway, without a super quick clock in the form of combo, those matchups are always gonna suck.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
@EddieClayton: it's a matter of consistency vs speed. The field isn't so blazing fast these days, so we can afford to up our consistency game and lock them opponents out harder when we do. However vs hyper-aggro decks, it is true that the full set of SV can be a liability as sometimes it allows them to slip under us. That's why against them you should cut them post-board. That was just discussed a couple pages back.
But the overall metagame-based consensus right now seems to be that we need the consistency and we need finding our stuff more than we need to rush-dump our hands. That being said, I can see a reasonable compromise in running more MB Collective Brutalities to help with the dumping, if hyper-aggro is rising in your local metagame.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
@eddie clayton - To speak from experience, it's rare that I wouldn't cast a serum visions before casting a bridge, and if I do cast a bridge first, the 1 cmc of visions probably isn't holding me back too often from emptying my hand. I actually find visions helpful in getting below a bridge - by scrying away high cmc cards and making sure I hit my land drops.
I took out SVs and needle for 4 spreading seas and a quicksilver fountain main.
I was doing it as frustrated landhate overkill but I have yet to have a game where I didn't whir for quicksilver as my first target. It has single handedly won me every game it's been out but one (a post sided game against valakut) against decks you wouldn't expect like skred red and abzan critters.
Best of all it gives us a legitimate threat against tron and valakut game one.
I think it's got hidden value because people don't know how to play against it so they hold lands thinking the flood counters will leave eventually but I have been able to foundry it away or end the game before I ever ran out of targets. So cards that force opponents to misplay make me very happy.
A major unexpected value bump.
Also one of big tez has remained an MVP
On spreading seas - I love the card in principal but when I was flirting with uw control there were a lot of games where 1u draw a card was nothing more than a slow path to defeat. For ub tez id be worried that casting t2 seas means not casting an artifact t2 and not being able to whir for combo pieces turn 3. Maybe thats a fair trade to fix the big mana matches though, so I will give it a try when I get back to brew mode.
Ive still got 2 guildmage 1 mindcrank in the board atm trying to assess if it does enough. It absolutely works but may be too situational (only good vs stony silence decks with few removal spells)
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
The seas are in my gemstone build so we have a turn 2 play on turn one very often. Important to note
I still usually win with thopters, and if I can hide Saheeli in my hand in a game where I think thopters on their own are enough, then I try to do that, and vice versa when I can win with Saheeli. The nice thing about Saheeli is that opponents are forced to respect the insta-win, and you can plop her down early with 0 combo pieces and expect that they will attack her in some manner, or change their game-plan, buying you time.
I think I want to try a grixis list with 4 Saheeli, 2 coating, 2 altar (which is my current numbers), 3-4 IoK, 3 Brutality, and a Sieve in the board. There were a number of matches where a whir for sieve would have won, and I don't feel like the 2 combos together are overkill against big mana.
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Or if they have 4 emrakuls - do it until the 4 emrakuls are on the library and win in 5 turns (assuming they cant discard it)
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron