I would recommend dropping a welding jar for a third collective brutality. Your list seems a little soft to burn, and CB is just gonna be more useful maindeck than a jar in almost all situations. And then I might recommend switching canonist and the other jar - really, you're only going to come up against artifact hate postboard, and canonist is a true pain for a lot of decks and will give you free wins against storm.
@the nobodys I will try those changes out. Usually I just race for the combo when playing against burn. I see how collective brutality #3 would help a lot tho. Welding jar may just be a sb card to bring in against artifact removal. However, the other bonus of welding jar is helping me dump my hand for bridge and turning on mox opal. Im unsold on ethersworn main because I feel like it would turn on removal in all non-storm games (and storm isnt rampant in my meta). What other decks does it pose problems for that cant easily deal with it?
The Leave No Trace vs Back to Nature argument is interesting, I'd be hesitant to try a 4th colour now that I'm down to a 2/2 split on Prism/Talisman. I've found Aether Grid to be fairly lacklustre though. I think I'd go with the utility of the Decay/Pulse package at first blush, but anything is worth a try. If I wasn't sick as a dog I'd be trying it out tonight.
Has anyone tried using a fetchless/shockless manabase lately?
When I first started playing Tezzerator again, I did this and it felt like it made the difference against Burn and aggro decks in general.
I was straight UB at the time but I think it can still work with Spire of Industry and Glimmervoid?
@ContraEgo: dunno about you, but from my 6 fetch rocking mana-base I must take on average not more than 2-3 dmg a game, while enabling Bauble's re-draw (virtual scry) ability. I don't think there's much benefit from going River of Tears (inconsistent) or more Glimmervoid (blowout potential) heavy. Spire of Industry is basically the same as fetching for a basic, which I always do after the first Watery Grave is down, with occasional upsides and downsides. I really like where I'm at right now. This is, off the top of my head:
@the_nobodys @jakoruz I have one welding jar main and often think a 2nd may be better than a 4th mishra's bauble.
It ramps up mox but more importantly it gives us some backup in a tez aninate sutuation g1 vs the very prevalent fatal push (as well as being a good target for his 5/5) and it makes our bridges not total liabilites against kcommand/abrupt decks.
Same manabase for me but plus one inventors fair plus one island minus one glimmervoid.
Id say island vs glimmervoid is fine. Fair is my 21st land so you cut a nonland card for it if your baseline is 20. The card I actually question most often in my manabase is the basic swamp. With whir I never want to fetch it early, and later the odds I couldnt just grab an island or shock are very low.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
@badmcfadden Yeah, I found this wierd crossroads where UUU early is so important and sometimes I'd have the damnation against an aggro opponent but the BB in the cc would be too costly to make the boardwipe even valuable. I think the deck can do what it needs to as a 4cU deck, honestly.
And I've only ever been blown out by three cards. Shatterstorm, Hurkyl's and Glimmervoid. One is from choosing to play it... so I'm seriously considering the axe for glimmervoid. Sometimes Aether Hub/Tendo Ice Bridge was a pain, but it was never a blowout.
@magpie842 Same. I really missed those guys. I think they're easy to take for granted in those games that they pull you into a commanding lead.
I'm down to one ensnaring bridge, 3 prisms and (sad face) three tezzerets to make room for 3 serum visions. I have one shadow of doubt in place of the fourth which has been just great. But again I'm playing a gemstone mine build so 2cmc is not as punishing for my build. In a regulat mana base build that would definitely be a serum.
I've recently used this manabase to play both Saheeli (only main-deck spell with R) and a couple Lili, as well as a bunch of discard in the main, and really found no problems with the mana. It usually goes Shores/Fetch Watery Grave, Island, Fetch for Steam Vents or Swamp if I need either one, otherwise Fetch Island. Out of the board come a few white apells, some disenchant effects and a Canonist. The glimmervoids are occasionally a roadblock when you're looking at a 1-land hand, but then so would things like Spire or or a colorless source. The times when I lose a glimmervoid to a Shatterstorm or Hurkyl's don't impact my judgment of glimmervoid. We're probably losing those games regardless of whether we lose a glimmervoid.
Can someone explain to me how people are beating death shadow with this deck? I don't think I've won a single game and I often die with a Pentad prism on the field and no cards in hand due to having multiple discard effects and a follow up denial. we don't do anything proactive really so we have to just pray to top deck and there isn't a huge window to do so when your opponent is attacking you with a 7/7 on turn 3.
I think I'm going back to mire inquisition to try and fight back
@Grouty: I've played the Grixis Death's Shadow match perhaps what, 15 times I think? And I've come out of it with a positive win % but it only came positive after adjusting our playstyle to beat their disruption; counterspells and discard. In one word: have more «threats» than they have answers. To do so, favour openers with lots of redundancy, and do the bait'n switch for counterspells: if you can't punch a hole with a discard spell of your own to resolve your threat, try baiting them into countering say a Whir end of their turn so you can untap and drop a Bridge freely. Against their discard, sheer redundancy of your haymakers is also valuable. And Mishra's Baubles and Serum Visions allow you to play to the top of your deck, which is also invaluable. The reasons I think we get out on top is just that our threats to their gameplan (Thopter-Sword or Ensnaring Bridge) are really hard for them to beat MB, they mostly run a singleton K-command thats it, these days. And post-board Ceremonious Rejection is pretty bad. It's never easy, but I think we have more live topdecks and just a single haymaker from our deck can be a nightmare for them to beat. Also another tiny tip that can save your life: your T1 Relic of Progenitus activation will delay their Anglers by one, two or maybe even three turns. That's huge, because it keeps Stubbies offline. So 1-2 Relics is really good for the match-up in my experience.
***
Monday Night Modern quickie: went to Face to Face Games yesterday, it had been a looooong while lol, and I got punished for walking unprepared into a really weird, Delver of Secrets heavy metagame where all of my 4 opponents were running Surgical Extraction and unexpectedly blew some part of my deck out. This funny because I had just given up on «alternate wincons» saying «We never see them extractions anymore!» -- heh, look who's sad now.
It still wasn't so bad but, had it not been of all these extractions I would certainly have done better than 2-1-1. So I won R1 vs Rakdos control feat. postboard Extractions on top of Rakdos Charm; tied R2 vs Grixis Delver feat. postboard Extractions on top of Rakdos Charm also and Staticaster along more K-commands; won R3 vs Sultai Delver feat. MB Pulses and Decays, postboard Extractions; then lost real hard to Lantern Control in the final round -- this one really is on me, G1 I kept a semi-greedy 6 on the play consisting of Delta, Opal, Jar, Prism, Foundry, Tezz, scrying non-land card to bottom. I can stand by that keep. However my T2 non-land topdeck was met by his T2 Lantern+Shredder and I hit no runner so, in context this just gave him the win right there; he just had to deny me cheap artifacts and lands. G2 was grindy and good but he came out on top. And again, unsurprisingly anymore, I got a bunch of stuff extracted lol.
Through the night, after either the Foundries or Tezz had been exiled outta my deck, I was gripping onto a Whir and had a couple of turns window, but really had no standalone artifact wincon to Whir for. There I really had a strong feeling that this piece is missing to our construction; the artifact alternate-wincon that works through-a-Bridge-and-under-Stony-Silence.
My experience play testing the match up is nothing like what you've said. We've even played games where they start 4 lands deaths shadow inq serum visions and i get to pick my opening 7 and I lose still. It seems like the match up is unwinnable without at least winning the die roll.
Maybe I've just been incredibly unlucky but more threats than they have disruption is tough when they have snap caster and 1 mana interaction everywhere
/e: @Racing089 we should really highlight these in the primer, like i've suggested before. If you don't have time to do the edit right now, is it possible to give me access to the primer thread (I mean, MTGSalvation/Curse Forum wise) so that I can do it?
@grouty I agree with @radouf I think our GDS/Abzan style grind matchups are very winnable... they just never feel good. Trying to do anything but be the threat aggressor is a way to lose the matchup.
For years the UB tezzeret matchup just got got housed by any black grind matchup. THAT was unwinnable. The difference maker has been whir. Holing it to respond to a discard spell or casting it during their upkeep or end step so they have to use mana in their turn can punch a hole in their answer package big enough to land a tez/bridge whatever... and sometimes your whir actually resolves!
also..Hey guys I'm new to the deck, some of you may sort of recognize me from the Latern thread. I just converted Lantern back to normal build and have too many cards from my whir build NOT to play Tezz. So I'm currently playing it over lantern and its way MORE my style. Hoping to help the community!
Pretty painful to watch. Lot of turns passing doing nothing instead of something (ie need land drop, cast prism, dont use counter for a serum; plan on first business spell being a herald so do-nothing and save prism for 3 turns straight). The combo is also kinda brutal to execute online - a lot of clicks to make each thopter. If you have to do all those clicks with time sieve the card may be virtually unplayable online - you sometimes need like 4-5 turns of just time walking to hit another mana source before you can even start poking for 1. If they have blockers its even worse because you need to build up enough thopters that one block each turn doesnt nuke your clock.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
When I first started playing Tezzerator again, I did this and it felt like it made the difference against Burn and aggro decks in general.
I was straight UB at the time but I think it can still work with Spire of Industry and Glimmervoid?
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
***
@ContraEgo: dunno about you, but from my 6 fetch rocking mana-base I must take on average not more than 2-3 dmg a game, while enabling Bauble's re-draw (virtual scry) ability. I don't think there's much benefit from going River of Tears (inconsistent) or more Glimmervoid (blowout potential) heavy. Spire of Industry is basically the same as fetching for a basic, which I always do after the first Watery Grave is down, with occasional upsides and downsides. I really like where I'm at right now. This is, off the top of my head:
2 Spire of Industry
1 Glimmervoid
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Swamp
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
It ramps up mox but more importantly it gives us some backup in a tez aninate sutuation g1 vs the very prevalent fatal push (as well as being a good target for his 5/5) and it makes our bridges not total liabilites against kcommand/abrupt decks.
Definitely not a no brainer cut by any means.
Id say island vs glimmervoid is fine. Fair is my 21st land so you cut a nonland card for it if your baseline is 20. The card I actually question most often in my manabase is the basic swamp. With whir I never want to fetch it early, and later the odds I couldnt just grab an island or shock are very low.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
And I've only ever been blown out by three cards. Shatterstorm, Hurkyl's and Glimmervoid. One is from choosing to play it... so I'm seriously considering the axe for glimmervoid. Sometimes Aether Hub/Tendo Ice Bridge was a pain, but it was never a blowout.
I'm down to one ensnaring bridge, 3 prisms and (sad face) three tezzerets to make room for 3 serum visions. I have one shadow of doubt in place of the fourth which has been just great. But again I'm playing a gemstone mine build so 2cmc is not as punishing for my build. In a regulat mana base build that would definitely be a serum.
Are you saying you think this deck can do well as a Blue-based 4 color deck? Because I think I agree with that. My current manabase looks like:
I've recently used this manabase to play both Saheeli (only main-deck spell with R) and a couple Lili, as well as a bunch of discard in the main, and really found no problems with the mana. It usually goes Shores/Fetch Watery Grave, Island, Fetch for Steam Vents or Swamp if I need either one, otherwise Fetch Island. Out of the board come a few white apells, some disenchant effects and a Canonist. The glimmervoids are occasionally a roadblock when you're looking at a 1-land hand, but then so would things like Spire or or a colorless source. The times when I lose a glimmervoid to a Shatterstorm or Hurkyl's don't impact my judgment of glimmervoid. We're probably losing those games regardless of whether we lose a glimmervoid.
@Magpie - *chants* Do it! Do it!
I think I'm going back to mire inquisition to try and fight back
***
Monday Night Modern quickie: went to Face to Face Games yesterday, it had been a looooong while lol, and I got punished for walking unprepared into a really weird, Delver of Secrets heavy metagame where all of my 4 opponents were running Surgical Extraction and unexpectedly blew some part of my deck out. This funny because I had just given up on «alternate wincons» saying «We never see them extractions anymore!» -- heh, look who's sad now.
It still wasn't so bad but, had it not been of all these extractions I would certainly have done better than 2-1-1. So I won R1 vs Rakdos control feat. postboard Extractions on top of Rakdos Charm; tied R2 vs Grixis Delver feat. postboard Extractions on top of Rakdos Charm also and Staticaster along more K-commands; won R3 vs Sultai Delver feat. MB Pulses and Decays, postboard Extractions; then lost real hard to Lantern Control in the final round -- this one really is on me, G1 I kept a semi-greedy 6 on the play consisting of Delta, Opal, Jar, Prism, Foundry, Tezz, scrying non-land card to bottom. I can stand by that keep. However my T2 non-land topdeck was met by his T2 Lantern+Shredder and I hit no runner so, in context this just gave him the win right there; he just had to deny me cheap artifacts and lands. G2 was grindy and good but he came out on top. And again, unsurprisingly anymore, I got a bunch of stuff extracted lol.
Through the night, after either the Foundries or Tezz had been exiled outta my deck, I was gripping onto a Whir and had a couple of turns window, but really had no standalone artifact wincon to Whir for. There I really had a strong feeling that this piece is missing to our construction; the artifact alternate-wincon that works through-a-Bridge-and-under-Stony-Silence.
/edit: The List
3x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4x Whir of Invention
4x Mishra's Bauble
4x Serum Visions
4x Thopter Foundry
3x Sword of the Meek
1x Time Sieve
Bullets
1x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
3x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Welding jar
Disruption
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Collective Brutality
3x Mox Opal
3x Pentad Prism
1x Academy Ruins
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
2x Watery Grave
1x Breeding Pool
2x Spire of Industry
1x Glimmervoid
3x Darkslick Shores
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Pithing Needle
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Witchbane Orb
2x Thoughtseize
2x Collective Brutality
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Flaying Tendrils
1x Damnation
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
Maybe I've just been incredibly unlucky but more threats than they have disruption is tough when they have snap caster and 1 mana interaction everywhere
And match one of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZRPGMjqXpw
/e: @Racing089 we should really highlight these in the primer, like i've suggested before. If you don't have time to do the edit right now, is it possible to give me access to the primer thread (I mean, MTGSalvation/Curse Forum wise) so that I can do it?
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
For years the UB tezzeret matchup just got got housed by any black grind matchup. THAT was unwinnable. The difference maker has been whir. Holing it to respond to a discard spell or casting it during their upkeep or end step so they have to use mana in their turn can punch a hole in their answer package big enough to land a tez/bridge whatever... and sometimes your whir actually resolves!
But it's totally a close to even pairing.
Stream ling: https://www.twitch.tv/mtggoldfish##
Decklist: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/726890#paper
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Serum Visions
3 Collective Brutality
4 Whir of Invention
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Mox Opal
2 Welding Jar
1 Pithing Needle
4 Pentad Prism
3 Sword of the Meek
4 Thopter Foundry
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Darkslick Shores
1 Inventors' Fair
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 River of Tears
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Defense Grid
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Time Sieve
1 Torpor Orb
1 Quicksilver Fountain
1 Witchbane Orb
2 Herald of Anguish
75 Cards Total
also..Hey guys I'm new to the deck, some of you may sort of recognize me from the Latern thread. I just converted Lantern back to normal build and have too many cards from my whir build NOT to play Tezz. So I'm currently playing it over lantern and its way MORE my style. Hoping to help the community!
Is there a sub-reddit for our group?
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron