I tested the Whir/Lantern deck tonight and concluded that I am woefully under qualified to make any decisions regarding that deck. I played it VERY poorly after many games. Granted I tested against very difficult and complex match ups, but still.
Next up, Trinisphere builds :]
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
U/B Tezzeret Control
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
Have been looking at this thread for awhile now. That's a weird looking deck, but looks fun to use. Hmm, what's the mainboard Witchbane orb and Crucible used for... deck tailored for use in your meta?
I don't think there's anyone here who doesn't want to be tapping a land to make a thopter and gain a life. It feels great, a very good and honest rate.
What I've observed is that there are two philosophical routes to go with Tez:
A) Using him as a means to assemble an artifact-based combo in a tempo deck (of which thopter/sword is indubitably the strongest)
or
B) Using him as a self contained engine/win con in a control shell
Both are viable ways to end a game in standard, but Occham's Razor is going to favor the self-contained win over a large enough sample size. I think this is the real reason you see self-contained Tez appear in more decks that do well.
I don't think anyone should abandon the combo version of the deck, but I think both philosophies of deck building should be supported and entertained on this thread without a tribalistic mindset taking over attempting to subvert one to the other.
@Racing089: Sorry that you couldn't take Lantern all the way! It's a fact, though, that it's one of the toughest decks to pilot out there. Even the sheer speed at which you play it can make or break your game. Each game. No other deck like it for sure.
@Reedy: Nice. To play devil's advocate however, I'll just compare Tezzerator to Lantern(ator?) in regards to those criterias. The obvious conclusion will be that Lantern is the superior prison deck, which may encourage us to exploit the other avenues we have, or maybe consolidate our ability to «pivot» between strategies.
1) Speed: Tezzerator has Mox and control elements to slow the opponents down. Lantern has the same, + a curve that's averaging ~CMC 1.2 to our 3.5 2) Consistency: We have Whir and Tezz. We used to do the Serum Visions (why not anymore, btw?). And Temples of Deceit, I guess Lantern now has Whir, full sets of Ancient Stirrings (which frankly adds tremendous speed to setting up / see crit. #1. Gosh is this card powerful! But misses too much in Tezzerator), but also the top-control package which is used to virtual scry yourself any time there's no game-breaking threat on the top of your opponent's library. This is a major consistency tool, btw, even though it might not seem as a big deal at first glance, it is as early as T2. And now they can also side into Tezz. Both decks can access Search for Azcanta (which I haven't tried yet, personally). 3) Flexible answer cards: Here Tezzerator can go heavier on Lilis and Damnation, which gives us the bigger edge I think. Lantern on the other hand has more access windows to Ensnaring Bridge, and they protect/recurr it better, which also makes it less likely that «stuff slips through». Top control package also ensure once the lock is in place, it aint going nowehere. That's why they don't need to go over the top like we do. This is their going over the top: locking down the opponent off game. When it's the relevant card, Lantern also seem to run countless Pithing Needles. Lastly, likwe us they have some numbers of Decays and Pulses for Stony or any problematic permanents à la LotV or Kataki, and small sweepers in the side (currently Porphyry Nodes and Pyroclasm -- yeah these guys go five colors, because they can) used to complement Bridge too. 4) Win the game quickly and decisively: This they don't do. That's probably one of the big things Tezz brings to the table for them. This we do, most definitely.
Similar to what I mentioned in the primer, what makes tezzeret so interesting is his ability to quickly turn the game on its head. He is a card advantage/card selection engine that can threaten to win the game the turn after he comes down. In some situations you just make a 5/5, make a 5/5 and they are dead as well. I have won games from seemingly impossible board states by managing my tezzeret efficiently.
I do think the best tezzerator versions are the ones that can be the most flexible. Especially right now. The Modern meta game is extremely wide and its near impossible to tech in a way to beat them all or even most with a prison strategy. This is when Thopter/Sword shines and allows us to win games we never had any business winning. That being said this is list I am playing competitively right now:
I think this list really encompasses a lot of things Reedy26 highlighted from Reid's article.
-6 Copies of mana accelerators including the full 4 Mox Opal.
-11 Cards that can dig for artifacts and 5 artifacts than can cycle all for consistency.
-7 Pieces of hand disruption catching the hard to deal with threats.
-Thopter/Sword and Tezzeret to win the game quickly
Most notable changes I have made are going back to playing Darksteel Citadel and I am back to playing LotV. Darksteel Citadel is played mostly as way to help enable faster mox opal starts. Liliana is back because blue based control decks are back and the meta is slowing down ever so slightly. LotV is a house against any of the fair decks as usual. I cast one against an opponent who only had a tapped colonnade in play (Mox Opal and on the play). He conceded immediately.
Anyone out there have tips to improve upon this list? I have been trying crazy things because I can't seem to do much better than what I already have here.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
U/B Tezzeret Control
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
You forgot one thing, in the combo version tezzeret is also used to win by itself, maybe ultimate ability or creating 5/5
I know that he's in the deck and what he does. My point was that you're giving up a ton of control slots and creating more moving parts by having the thoper/sword/whir combo in the deck.
I just asked Kanister on stream about adding thopter/sword to the list. He said he thought it was a terrible idea, then said not terrible but ultimately a bad idea.
I just asked Kanister on stream about adding thopter/sword to the list. He said he thought it was a terrible idea, then said not terrible but ultimately a bad idea.
From the horse's mouth.
Yeah I've asked him before and he wrote it off fast, but he also admitted that he didn't have extensive experience with the combo; which we have. He has also been looking for an edge for against GDS, and the combo could serve this function very well. It's resilient, and Grixis can't beat chained Lingering Souls, let alone life-gaining ones. So there's that. I wouldn't write it off myself.
@Reedy: Agreed. All agreed.
@Netter Mizuno: RE. Mopal vs Talisman : it's something that I had noticed in the Glint-Nest Craine era (RIP); even though Talisman is guaranteed to be cast and provide one mana on T2, you've just used the tempo and two mana to cast it, and you're 99% of the time not going to cash-in the payoff (the ramp effect) before T3. Like you said, most times, Opal is online on T3. Thus, it still makes sense to opt for the Opal because you will effectively use the ramp around the same time, most of the time, but Opal will cost you zero mana, versus your full T2 time and mana for Talisman. And while maybe not as reliable (build-dependent!), Opal also has the upside of the occasional broken starts, and rainbow fixing. Food for thought
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN Blue Lantern, UBx Tezzerator. OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
I've been doing fairly well with this deck in local tournaments (4/0 regularly 40 personal FNMs, winning or splitting 60+ person events for a mox), online (always 3/2 and regularly 4/1 or 5/0 depending if I'm paired versus tron every league as seems to be habbit.
I still enjoy no prism, full combo, 2 or 3 tezz, and 1 bottled cloister.
Cloister has been absurd for me. It's phenomenal game 2 versus stony/aggro decks as a way to clear your hand from bridge and find green cards. Drawing 2 cards a turn is a great win condition to tutor up. The opposite is true for tezz recently. He feels slow and stuck in my hand early game causing me to still die with a bridge in play due to a slow hand, but turn 6 or 7 in top deck mode I start looking for one.
Padeem has also been an allstar post board (I dislike it main board due to wanting to make opponents removal dead game 1). She protects from noble hierarch and blanks a significant amount of sideboard cards from tier 1 decks.
I tried out the non combo version with big tezz/lilly/damnation and I felt it was terrible.
One of the main reasons I've been successful is being able to make choices and adjust my strategy to what my opponent is doing. This is why lantern is a very strong deck. It has the most choices.
The whirless version doesn't have that luxury. It just tries to top deck better than our opponent once a bridge is in play. The whirless version decks seem to only be doing well with a lot of luck. I can win with any deck if I'm lucky, but only certain configurations can win through proactive disruption, pressure and 3 sideboard cards (which I regularly do). Making choices with serum/bauble/whir/welding jar/spyglass/tezz make this version much better in my opinion.
Just my 2 cents. Feel free to try out that version of the deck, but I've found it to be a waste of time and a fluke for a single tournament.
I've been doing fairly well with this deck in local tournaments (4/0 regularly 40 personal FNMs, winning or splitting 60+ person events for a mox), online (always 3/2 and regularly 4/1 or 5/0 depending if I'm paired versus tron every league as seems to be habbit.
I still enjoy no prism, full combo, 2 or 3 tezz, and 1 bottled cloister.
Cloister has been absurd for me. It's phenomenal game 2 versus stony/aggro decks as a way to clear your hand from bridge and find green cards. Drawing 2 cards a turn is a great win condition to tutor up. The opposite is true for tezz recently. He feels slow and stuck in my hand early game causing me to still die with a bridge in play due to a slow hand, but turn 6 or 7 in top deck mode I start looking for one.
Padeem has also been an allstar post board (I dislike it main board due to wanting to make opponents removal dead game 1). She protects from noble hierarch and blanks a significant amount of sideboard cards from tier 1 decks.
I tried out the non combo version with big tezz/lilly/damnation and I felt it was terrible.
One of the main reasons I've been successful is being able to make choices and adjust my strategy to what my opponent is doing. This is why lantern is a very strong deck. It has the most choices.
The whirless version doesn't have that luxury. It just tries to top deck better than our opponent once a bridge is in play. The whirless version decks seem to only be doing well with a lot of luck. I can win with any deck if I'm lucky, but only certain configurations can win through proactive disruption, pressure and 3 sideboard cards (which I regularly do). Making choices with serum/bauble/whir/welding jar/spyglass/tezz make this version much better in my opinion.
Just my 2 cents. Feel free to try out that version of the deck, but I've found it to be a waste of time and a fluke for a single tournament.
This is the only deck that makes me wish the regulation deck size was 70 and the sideboard 20+. There's always so much I want to put in the deck and can't. I have half a binder dedicated to just this deck so I can have every option in our small flex spots and SB lol. Anyway keep up the good work every body.
I didn't told you but I played last saturday a large modern event with iconic masters boosters as a prize. I ended up losing in quarterfinals to BG tron, I will try to make a report when I have time, but these days I'm quite busy. My list was whir + combo + silver bullets
This is the whir deck's fundamental flaw, too many basically unwinnable matchups to take home real money consistently.
So I've done 2 leagues with Lantern + Thopter combo (2 TF/ 1 SotM). I went 2-3 and 3-2, with I feel 1 loss per league due to inexperience and misplay. I also put tezz and lili in tthe SB. Combo won me a game vs humans and a game vs breach, and let me out-sideboard my opponent in the mirror (cause he had to keep in bridge). Lantern is... a more brittle deck. Sometimes you get concessions on turn 2, sometimes you see a noble hierarch and you're like, "well that's probably GG." It may be an experience bias, but it seems like a weaker deck post-board. Also, there's something about ancient stirrings that feels worse in practice than serum visions. Like, if I want to grab a bridge and play it the next turn, stirrings digs deeper, but then it has to survive discard and meddling mage, and opponents can play differently knowing bridge is coming. And visions can give you more stuff- a whir next turn, or removal or discard or whatever.
Anyway, I wanted to say good post, radouf, I agree with your points.
For the person asking who was on esper thopters, that was me. The benefits over sultai are that, the mana-base is smooth because W can pay for foundry, you can play some more narrow hosers out of the board, and souls and path are never bad cards. I'm liking sultai mostly because of goyf and decay these days. With decay main as removal, I can skimp on artifact/enchantment hate out of the board.
This is the whir deck's fundamental flaw, too many basically unwinnable matchups to take home real money consistently.
@OFWGKTA I would argue this is more true of the non-whir versions. Whir versions are toolbox decks and therefore have more consistency across a wider numbers of decks. Using Tron as an example for your argument doesn't make sense because every version of Tezzeret gets obliterated by Tron. I find that outside of Tron, we have very few unwinnable match ups on the Whir version.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
U/B Tezzeret Control
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
Having another middling league with lantern. I miss thopter combo and having a more robust gameplan, so I will switch back over.
I think I'm pretty high on Dark Confidant right now, after playing two copies for a number of games. Burn is pretty minimal these days, and he makes a great turn 2 play. Opponents are forced to spend a turn or half a turn dealing with him or let him start digging, the deck's cmc is pretty low with baubles and moxen and serum visions scry (I play tezz in the side), and between thopter lifegain or an emergency lili minus he has never once killed me. And he trades with relevant creatures like meddling mage and leonin arbiter. I suggest people give him a try.
Yes, I have tried both. There is a big difference between "immediate" card advantage and "immediate" card filtering with a conditional, mana hefty card advantage option.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Darksteel Citadel
1 Gemstone Caverns
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Spire of Industry
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Dimir Signet
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Talisman of Dominance
2 Trinisphere
1 Witchbane Orb
Support Cards:
4 Collective Brutality
2 Damnation
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Trophy Mage
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Crazy, but food for thought.
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
Next up, Trinisphere builds :]
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
Have been looking at this thread for awhile now. That's a weird looking deck, but looks fun to use. Hmm, what's the mainboard Witchbane orb and Crucible used for... deck tailored for use in your meta?
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
What I've observed is that there are two philosophical routes to go with Tez:
A) Using him as a means to assemble an artifact-based combo in a tempo deck (of which thopter/sword is indubitably the strongest)
or
B) Using him as a self contained engine/win con in a control shell
Both are viable ways to end a game in standard, but Occham's Razor is going to favor the self-contained win over a large enough sample size. I think this is the real reason you see self-contained Tez appear in more decks that do well.
I don't think anyone should abandon the combo version of the deck, but I think both philosophies of deck building should be supported and entertained on this thread without a tribalistic mindset taking over attempting to subvert one to the other.
@Reedy: Nice. To play devil's advocate however, I'll just compare Tezzerator to Lantern(ator?) in regards to those criterias. The obvious conclusion will be that Lantern is the superior prison deck, which may encourage us to exploit the other avenues we have, or maybe consolidate our ability to «pivot» between strategies.
1) Speed: Tezzerator has Mox and control elements to slow the opponents down. Lantern has the same, + a curve that's averaging ~CMC 1.2 to our 3.5
2) Consistency: We have Whir and Tezz. We used to do the Serum Visions (why not anymore, btw?). And Temples of Deceit, I guess
3) Flexible answer cards: Here Tezzerator can go heavier on Lilis and Damnation, which gives us the bigger edge I think. Lantern on the other hand has more access windows to Ensnaring Bridge, and they protect/recurr it better, which also makes it less likely that «stuff slips through». Top control package also ensure once the lock is in place, it aint going nowehere. That's why they don't need to go over the top like we do. This is their going over the top: locking down the opponent off game. When it's the relevant card, Lantern also seem to run countless Pithing Needles. Lastly, likwe us they have some numbers of Decays and Pulses for Stony or any problematic permanents à la LotV or Kataki, and small sweepers in the side (currently Porphyry Nodes and Pyroclasm -- yeah these guys go five colors, because they can) used to complement Bridge too.
4) Win the game quickly and decisively: This they don't do. That's probably one of the big things Tezz brings to the table for them. This we do, most definitely.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
I do think the best tezzerator versions are the ones that can be the most flexible. Especially right now. The Modern meta game is extremely wide and its near impossible to tech in a way to beat them all or even most with a prison strategy. This is when Thopter/Sword shines and allows us to win games we never had any business winning. That being said this is list I am playing competitively right now:
1 Breeding Pool
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Darksteel Citadel
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Spire of Industry
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
Spells:
2 Collective Brutality
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Serum Visions
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Thoughtseize
4 Whir of Invention
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mox Opal
2 Pentad Prism
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Damnation
1 Defense Grid
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Fatal Push
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Lost Legacy
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroclasm
1 Witchbane Orb
I think this list really encompasses a lot of things Reedy26 highlighted from Reid's article.
-6 Copies of mana accelerators including the full 4 Mox Opal.
-11 Cards that can dig for artifacts and 5 artifacts than can cycle all for consistency.
-7 Pieces of hand disruption catching the hard to deal with threats.
-Thopter/Sword and Tezzeret to win the game quickly
Most notable changes I have made are going back to playing Darksteel Citadel and I am back to playing LotV. Darksteel Citadel is played mostly as way to help enable faster mox opal starts. Liliana is back because blue based control decks are back and the meta is slowing down ever so slightly. LotV is a house against any of the fair decks as usual. I cast one against an opponent who only had a tapped colonnade in play (Mox Opal and on the play). He conceded immediately.
Anyone out there have tips to improve upon this list? I have been trying crazy things because I can't seem to do much better than what I already have here.
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
From the horse's mouth.
@Reedy: Agreed. All agreed.
@Netter Mizuno: RE. Mopal vs Talisman : it's something that I had noticed in the Glint-Nest Craine era (RIP); even though Talisman is guaranteed to be cast and provide one mana on T2, you've just used the tempo and two mana to cast it, and you're 99% of the time not going to cash-in the payoff (the ramp effect) before T3. Like you said, most times, Opal is online on T3. Thus, it still makes sense to opt for the Opal because you will effectively use the ramp around the same time, most of the time, but Opal will cost you zero mana, versus your full T2 time and mana for Talisman. And while maybe not as reliable (build-dependent!), Opal also has the upside of the occasional broken starts, and rainbow fixing. Food for thought
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
I still enjoy no prism, full combo, 2 or 3 tezz, and 1 bottled cloister.
Cloister has been absurd for me. It's phenomenal game 2 versus stony/aggro decks as a way to clear your hand from bridge and find green cards. Drawing 2 cards a turn is a great win condition to tutor up. The opposite is true for tezz recently. He feels slow and stuck in my hand early game causing me to still die with a bridge in play due to a slow hand, but turn 6 or 7 in top deck mode I start looking for one.
Padeem has also been an allstar post board (I dislike it main board due to wanting to make opponents removal dead game 1). She protects from noble hierarch and blanks a significant amount of sideboard cards from tier 1 decks.
I tried out the non combo version with big tezz/lilly/damnation and I felt it was terrible.
One of the main reasons I've been successful is being able to make choices and adjust my strategy to what my opponent is doing. This is why lantern is a very strong deck. It has the most choices.
The whirless version doesn't have that luxury. It just tries to top deck better than our opponent once a bridge is in play. The whirless version decks seem to only be doing well with a lot of luck. I can win with any deck if I'm lucky, but only certain configurations can win through proactive disruption, pressure and 3 sideboard cards (which I regularly do). Making choices with serum/bauble/whir/welding jar/spyglass/tezz make this version much better in my opinion.
Just my 2 cents. Feel free to try out that version of the deck, but I've found it to be a waste of time and a fluke for a single tournament.
Which deck version are you talking about ?
This is the whir deck's fundamental flaw, too many basically unwinnable matchups to take home real money consistently.
Anyway, I wanted to say good post, radouf, I agree with your points.
For the person asking who was on esper thopters, that was me. The benefits over sultai are that, the mana-base is smooth because W can pay for foundry, you can play some more narrow hosers out of the board, and souls and path are never bad cards. I'm liking sultai mostly because of goyf and decay these days. With decay main as removal, I can skimp on artifact/enchantment hate out of the board.
@OFWGKTA I would argue this is more true of the non-whir versions. Whir versions are toolbox decks and therefore have more consistency across a wider numbers of decks. Using Tron as an example for your argument doesn't make sense because every version of Tezzeret gets obliterated by Tron. I find that outside of Tron, we have very few unwinnable match ups on the Whir version.
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
I think I'm pretty high on Dark Confidant right now, after playing two copies for a number of games. Burn is pretty minimal these days, and he makes a great turn 2 play. Opponents are forced to spend a turn or half a turn dealing with him or let him start digging, the deck's cmc is pretty low with baubles and moxen and serum visions scry (I play tezz in the side), and between thopter lifegain or an emergency lili minus he has never once killed me. And he trades with relevant creatures like meddling mage and leonin arbiter. I suggest people give him a try.