It would be cool if shadow became this formats delver
It'd also make blue genuinely good against midrange
If this is what blue needs to be good I'm fine with that too
I'm curious where it goes but wotc may panic and ban it. The format won't be fixed, I honestly can't see any deck left to police big mana and ramp, and no, revolt zoo will not be the deck that fixes the format
Revolt Zoo with SSG is the real deal. Seriously. 12 damage turn 1 and like 4 bodies on the field.
Revolt Zoo with SSG is the real deal. Seriously. 12 damage turn 1 and like 4 bodies on the field.
And what happens if you don't draw into the magical fairyland opening?
Happened 25% of the time when I tested against it. Other times it was on turn 2 or 3.
We can't weigh results like this too much. I'm still enjoying a 35% T2-T3 win rate on Cheeri0s, but no one can breach an Open/GP T32 with the deck. Barely any T8s at smaller events either. This just underscores that personal experiences with "broken" decks need to be taken with many grains of salt.
Revolt Zoo with SSG is the real deal. Seriously. 12 damage turn 1 and like 4 bodies on the field.
And what happens if you don't draw into the magical fairyland opening?
Happened 25% of the time when I tested against it. Other times it was on turn 2 or 3.
We can't weigh results like this too much. I'm still enjoying a 35% T2-T3 win rate on Cheeri0s, but no one can breach an Open/GP T32 with the deck. Barely any T8s at smaller events either. This just underscores that personal experiences with "broken" decks need to be taken with many grains of salt.
Yes, my own testing is not sufficient, obviously. I think revolt zoo will see a pick up. At least the version I tested against.
DS is really only an issue because those decks run heavy discard. So your answers are stripped from your hand by the time they resolve DS. DS by itself dies to a lot of removal. Discard is often labeled as card disadvantage, but it really isnt. Im losing one card in return for you losing your current best card in hand + I know what else you have and I can guess your game plan.
That being said, Im currently 50/50 against DS decks, which is fine by me.
I disagree to an extent. Yes the discard spells strip your answers away and that is fine and the real problem comes with how little time you have to recoup your hand. Deaths shadow jund just has enough redundacy and speed steal games off of decks who have a great matchup on paper. The old jund decks did not have the consistency and speed that this version had which made the discard spells alright.
I do not think any player who is competent in terminology or strategic theory of mtg considers discard card disadvantage. Discard is tempo negative which is and always has been true which is why the playable discard spells cost 1. 2 cc discard is borderline standard unplayable even. That being said 1 mana discard is good when packed up by a mana efficient threat but when the threats are too efficient and redundantthen you have a problem and the culprit is not the discard spells themselves.
I think it's ridiculous that people are labeling Death's Shadow as oppressive or reducing diversity.
Tarmogoyf, Snapcaster, and even Thought-Knot Seer are currently played in a larger percentage of decks than DS is. I mean really what gives?
The card is basically the perfect solution to Modern's problem of fair decks being inherently disadvantaged because of their manabases. Great card to have in the format.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Modern decks BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
I think it's ridiculous that people are labeling Death's Shadow as oppressive or reducing diversity.
Tarmogoyf, Snapcaster, and even Thought-Knot Seer are currently played in a larger percentage of decks than DS is. I mean really what gives?
The card is basically the perfect solution to Modern's problem of fair decks being inherently disadvantaged because of their manabases. Great card to have in the format.
Anything that's not the player's favorite deck needs a ban until that player's favorite deck is tier 1 and dominating everything. I actually think a G/W Hatebears build is the right metachoice right now to combat DS (Which will probably change into a Grixis build to beat the hatebears). It has good creatures, can really mess up Death Shadow's battle math, and has ways to lock them out. They're also not completely crippled from discard.
You want to have a deck that's aggressive and cast Brainstorm? Play Delver.
You want to fetch a shockland and cast Thoughtseize? Play Shadow.
The way the format is shaped, just suits Death's Shadow. That's absolutely the sign of a becoming-healthy format. Is the deck in another league compared to most? I would say yes, but that issue is a differently topic. That's a problem with the banned list taking away all the previous standard powerhouse fair cards. There would be a fair Jund deck with Bloodbraid Elf, and a good White Midrange possibility with Stoneforge Mystic.
The funny thing is (and sorry to the people who hate the Twin topic) that this would not be a great metagame for Twin if it still existed. The DS decks are a perfect storm of everything that's good against Twin: fast clock, beaters that don't die to bolt, hand disruption, and creature removal. This would be a nightmare matchup for Twin.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
You take TBR out against grindy midrange/ control decks and Bauble is still card advantage. Besides you can cut it and bring something else in from your sideboard.
The way the format is shaped, just suits Death's Shadow. That's absolutely the sign of a becoming-healthy format. Is the deck in another league compared to most? I would say yes, but that issue is a differently topic. That's a problem with the banned list taking away all the previous standard powerhouse fair cards. There would be a fair Jund deck with Bloodbraid Elf, and a good White Midrange possibility with Stoneforge Mystic.
But with Stoneforge, wouldn't Esper or Abzan Shadow become the de-facto best Death's Shadow deck?
Sarcasm aside, I think the format stands to gain from Death's Shadow decks. The recent bannigns have meant all the decks that are best against big mana strategies have been banned out of the format over th past year. If Death's Shadow can check ramp and big-mana decks by grinding them down instead of blitzing them out (running up against the Turn-4 Rule), that's a win in my book.
The potential problems I see are:
If h0lydiva's right and Death's Shadow is seen as a diversity violator. Maybe warranted, maybe not; too early to say right now, but remember they banned Wild Nacatl. I can see the same thing happening down the line if too many decks coalesce around Shadow. That of course would straight-up neuter the namesake shells.
If DS decks, or some particular variants of the shell, have too many good matchups across the board. The data we've seen so far (sketchy as it is) makes it look like this could happen down the line. I hope that if that happens, Wizards will do the power-down route like we saw with the Eye of Ugin ban, rather than going with the nuclear option of targeting Shadow itself.
I'm definitely not in favor of a ban; just pointing out that WotC has multiple ways of addressing the deck depending on how the numbers shape up and what their priorities are. And of course they always have the unbanning route, too, which I think should absolutely be the first consideration.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Oh, of course it was a mistake. They single-handedly destroyed the Modern format for 3 months and are still represented in two different high tier decks AFTER receiving a ban. Some of the most pushed creatures in Magic history.
I'm not sure where this thread is going other than prohibited "ban ___" or "deck ____ makes me mad" territory. Can someone clarify this for me? This topic will likely just be merged with the State of Modern thread.
holydiva to your point uw has game against bant sure but in no way shape or form are you beating tron consistently. If DS was defeated then guess what? Tron just takes over.
In all seriousness, at least as yet, this isn't a problem deck. It's certainly very good but it seems to be beatable by the type of decks that should beat it (the long absent control). I'm willing to eat crow if it proves too much down the line but I think at this point there are no grounds for a ban.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Is it too soon to revisit Deathrite Shaman? Efficient answers like Fatal Push are a thing now.
lol, yes, it's way too early to be revising Shaman---like---ever
DRS is very much in my, "banned for at least five years" card. Why the hell would we give Jund more access? I have no clue if it would adopt it, but I don't care, it's adding a 1 mana planeswalker into an already hyper efficient deck
It would make traditional Jund stupid
Let's not even discuss DRS, it's worthless debating that route.
Is it too soon to revisit Deathrite Shaman? Efficient answers like Fatal Push are a thing now.
Deathrite is only foreseeable in a near-apocalyptic scenario. It's one of the most absurdly overpowered creatures the format has ever seen, and on top of that there's no real reason to unban it. Having one more card that can answer it at parity doesn't really change anything.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Revolt Zoo with SSG is the real deal. Seriously. 12 damage turn 1 and like 4 bodies on the field.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
And what happens if you don't draw into the magical fairyland opening?
Happened 25% of the time when I tested against it. Other times it was on turn 2 or 3.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
We can't weigh results like this too much. I'm still enjoying a 35% T2-T3 win rate on Cheeri0s, but no one can breach an Open/GP T32 with the deck. Barely any T8s at smaller events either. This just underscores that personal experiences with "broken" decks need to be taken with many grains of salt.
Spirits
Yes, my own testing is not sufficient, obviously. I think revolt zoo will see a pick up. At least the version I tested against.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
I disagree to an extent. Yes the discard spells strip your answers away and that is fine and the real problem comes with how little time you have to recoup your hand. Deaths shadow jund just has enough redundacy and speed steal games off of decks who have a great matchup on paper. The old jund decks did not have the consistency and speed that this version had which made the discard spells alright.
I do not think any player who is competent in terminology or strategic theory of mtg considers discard card disadvantage. Discard is tempo negative which is and always has been true which is why the playable discard spells cost 1. 2 cc discard is borderline standard unplayable even. That being said 1 mana discard is good when packed up by a mana efficient threat but when the threats are too efficient and redundantthen you have a problem and the culprit is not the discard spells themselves.
Tarmogoyf, Snapcaster, and even Thought-Knot Seer are currently played in a larger percentage of decks than DS is. I mean really what gives?
The card is basically the perfect solution to Modern's problem of fair decks being inherently disadvantaged because of their manabases. Great card to have in the format.
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
Anything that's not the player's favorite deck needs a ban until that player's favorite deck is tier 1 and dominating everything. I actually think a G/W Hatebears build is the right metachoice right now to combat DS (Which will probably change into a Grixis build to beat the hatebears). It has good creatures, can really mess up Death Shadow's battle math, and has ways to lock them out. They're also not completely crippled from discard.
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
You want to have a deck that's aggressive and cast Brainstorm? Play Delver.
You want to fetch a shockland and cast Thoughtseize? Play Shadow.
The way the format is shaped, just suits Death's Shadow. That's absolutely the sign of a becoming-healthy format. Is the deck in another league compared to most? I would say yes, but that issue is a differently topic. That's a problem with the banned list taking away all the previous standard powerhouse fair cards. There would be a fair Jund deck with Bloodbraid Elf, and a good White Midrange possibility with Stoneforge Mystic.
Until modern as a whole grows in power and receives the tools, BBE with DSJ is an awful, awful idea.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Why would you ever run both of those cards in the same deck? I think your method of deck construction is beyond horrible.
You want to Cascade into a Mishra's Bauble? a Temur Battle Rage with no target?
Legacy: UWR Miracles [https://deckstats.net/decks/44442/1092831-uwr-miracles-2]
My deck construction?
That was Sam black, bud---do we know better than him?
But with Stoneforge, wouldn't Esper or Abzan Shadow become the de-facto best Death's Shadow deck?
Oh wait a minute...
Sarcasm aside, I think the format stands to gain from Death's Shadow decks. The recent bannigns have meant all the decks that are best against big mana strategies have been banned out of the format over th past year. If Death's Shadow can check ramp and big-mana decks by grinding them down instead of blitzing them out (running up against the Turn-4 Rule), that's a win in my book.
The potential problems I see are:
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
In all seriousness, at least as yet, this isn't a problem deck. It's certainly very good but it seems to be beatable by the type of decks that should beat it (the long absent control). I'm willing to eat crow if it proves too much down the line but I think at this point there are no grounds for a ban.
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
lol, yes, it's way too early to be revising Shaman---like---ever
DRS is very much in my, "banned for at least five years" card. Why the hell would we give Jund more access? I have no clue if it would adopt it, but I don't care, it's adding a 1 mana planeswalker into an already hyper efficient deck
It would make traditional Jund stupid
Let's not even discuss DRS, it's worthless debating that route.
Deathrite is only foreseeable in a near-apocalyptic scenario. It's one of the most absurdly overpowered creatures the format has ever seen, and on top of that there's no real reason to unban it. Having one more card that can answer it at parity doesn't really change anything.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon