Lately, Modern community members have expressed interest in talking holistically about the challenges and problems facing Modern. Whether or not Modern has "challenges" or "problems" is up for debate, but what is clear is that people want to talk about all of these issues in one unified setting.
As such, Modern staff are opening this thread as a replacement for the old "Banlist Discussion" thread and the "State of the Meta thread." You can use this thread to talk about any and all of these varied Modern issues and their intersection. This thread will be heavily moderated, so be sure to read the rules before posting; anyone who posts in this thread is assumed to have read and understood these rules.
Allowed topics
Bans, unbans, and all things related to the banlist and banlist policy
Metagame health and diversity
Reprint suggestions and reprint philosophy
New cards and design philosophy
Prices and Modern finance
Archetype definitions
Format health, successes, and challenges
Anything that constructively relates to these different issues
Some cards enable a top tier deck to consistently win on turn 3 or earlier. Because this violates the "turn 4" rule of the format, the following cards have been banned:
Other cards have been banned because they make certain decks too consistent/reliable and thus stagnate the format. Here are some examples of these cards:
Some cards, currently only one, are banned because they were just mistakes. This card is one of the most broken cards of all time and has been banned in almost every format where it was or is legal:
There are also some cards that were banned for logistical reasons. These cards made tournaments last too long and were banned to make events run smoother. They were not necessarily banned for power reasons.
Played a lot of reps against revolt zoo the other day. The amount of times I got turn 3'ed was intense. I think there is something there for sure.
Anyone have odds on Surgical Extraction ever biting the ban dust? I see it as an underplayed major hoser for most decks, and it can be played in most decks. And it has a power-level I think most of us underestimate.
Anyone have odds on Surgical Extraction ever biting the ban dust? I see it as an underplayed major hoser for most decks, and it can be played in most decks. And it has a power-level I think most of us underestimate.
I don't think it's banworthy, but I do think it's a fantastic hoser that rewards knowledge of opponent's deck. After the Probe ban, I have had 1-2 copies in and out of my main deck flex spots in Grixis.
I really hope it's never banned. Despite it's phyrexian mana cost the card always feels like it encourages 'fair' magic to me. Plus it's often card disadvantage when cast
Surgical extraction might be compared to FoW. It's free early to help contain combo decks, but otherwise is usually just card disadvantage. It helps police unfair strategies while being a poor option against fair decks. Great card imo.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I dont think it should be banned, but it does have an underestimated power level to it. And I feel it is currently underplayed. Card disadvantage is fine if you pick the right targets. You are losing your discard spell. Your opponent is losing something they (usually) badly need. The disadvantage is really an advantage.
I think Surgical Extraction is one of the few skill testing Magic cards in the format that rewards you for knowing the things going on in your opponent's deck. It's definitely not banworthy even for a Phyrexian spell.
one of the few skill testing Magic cards in the format
I'm sorry that you have the impression that there are few skill testing cards in modern. I don't think that is the fault of the format - there are plentyofskilltestingcards.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
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Why is "RG Ponza" still in "deck creation" and not at least in "developing competitive" ?
The deck is better than half the decks that are already there.
Was it the version with simian spirit guide? It can be insanely fast. I saw a turn two kill once, fetchland, pitch spirit guide, play herbalists, herbalists, burning tree, reckless bushwhacker, attack for 11, all on the play, before the opponent played a single card. Creatures and a couple of bolts finished it off, even through turn one push. Granted, that hand is probably pretty rare, but wow.
As long as we've got a fresh new thread, I have a question for the reactive Blue crowd. When we talk about empowering Blue/reactive decks, we usually mean Ux Control, often in a draw-go style. But I've started thinking that I'd be just as open - or even more open, even - to strengthening the Ux Tempo shell. We currently have a few Delver lists floating around Tier 2, and as a Knightfall pilot I'd say that deck plays a Tempo role in many matchups, but overall I'd say that the archetype has even worse representation than Control. Given WotC's aversion to printing Draw-Go cards, what would people think about the possibility of giving Blue its identity back through printing some new Tempo tools?
I started thinking about this because of Blue's status in in Standard. It feels like a confused, weak, do-nothing color at present because its usual wheelhouse - permission, filtering, draw, etc. - are things that WotC hates and has weakened or phased out (with a couple notablemistakes/exceptions and very narrow cards). But would the pro-Blue crowd be happy with shifting Blue more towards a Tempo bent? That just seems like a more likely to me, and I actually think it would do as much for the format as empowering reactive Blue Control. It also feels to me like Tempo would take fewer cards to bring up to speed just because its proactive gameplan meshes more with the tools available in the Modern cardpool.
Thoughts? Good idea/bad idea? And what kinds of cards would you like to see printed/reprinted to bolster tempo? Something Stifle-esque would be great, as would ways of trading card advantage for tempo advantage.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Was it the version with simian spirit guide? It can be insanely fast. I saw a turn two kill once, fetchland, pitch spirit guide, play herbalists, herbalists, burning tree, reckless bushwhacker, attack for 11, all on the play, before the opponent played a single card. Creatures and a couple of bolts finished it off, even through turn one push. Granted, that hand is probably pretty rare, but wow.
Yes, it was. It was insanely fast. Imagine turn 1 swing for 9+ damage. Yet another reason I despise SSG.
i think, as i said a couple of times, that stifle would make delver decks a very competitive blue deck, even a tier 1 deck. Stifle stops a lot of interactions from a lot of different archetypes, and it can make alone a very powerful force to fight 3 color manabases because of fetchlands. I agree that is not a fun card, but modern is already full of non-fun cards and interactions
one of the few skill testing Magic cards in the format
I'm sorry that you have the impression that there are few skill testing cards in modern. I don't think that is the fault of the format - there are plentyofskilltestingcards.
I'm sorry you took offense to that comment, are you trying to imply that a majority of the Pro Players Club is terrible at Modern? We can start this slippery slope if you want. I never wanted to engage in that conversation but now that you have been hostile towards my comment, you can enlighten me at how much skill is required to be good at Modern.
I'm sorry you took offense to that comment, are you trying to imply that a majority of the Pro Players Club is terrible at Modern? We can start this slippery slope if you want. I never wanted to engage in that conversation but now that you have been hostile towards my comment, you can enlighten me at how much skill is required to be good at Modern.
I'm not sure how you read offense into that. You're simply wrong and I pointed it out. No offense, happy to help you out.
I didn't say anything about "a majority of the Pro Players Club" being "terrible at modern". I therefore find your suggestion that I implied anything about that set of players to be absurd.
What slippery slope are you referring to? Did you want me to point out more 'skill-testing cards'? I'm not sure how that's a slippery slope - unless you're meaning a slippery slope towards educating yourself. In which case you're welcome.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
As long as we've got a fresh new thread, I have a question for the reactive Blue crowd. When we talk about empowering Blue/reactive decks, we usually mean Ux Control, often in a draw-go style. But I've started thinking that I'd be just as open - or even more open, even - to strengthening the Ux Tempo shell. We currently have a few Delver lists floating around Tier 2, and as a Knightfall pilot I'd say that deck plays a Tempo role in many matchups, but overall I'd say that the archetype has even worse representation than Control. Given WotC's aversion to printing Draw-Go cards, what would people think about the possibility of giving Blue its identity back through printing some new Tempo tools?
I started thinking about this because of Blue's status in in Standard. It feels like a confused, weak, do-nothing color at present because its usual wheelhouse - permission, filtering, draw, etc. - are things that WotC hates and has weakened or phased out (with a couple notablemistakes/exceptions and very narrow cards). But would the pro-Blue crowd be happy with shifting Blue more towards a Tempo bent? That just seems like a more likely to me, and I actually think it would do as much for the format as empowering reactive Blue Control. It also feels to me like Tempo would take fewer cards to bring up to speed just because its proactive gameplan meshes more with the tools available in the Modern cardpool.
Thoughts? Good idea/bad idea? And what kinds of cards would you like to see printed/reprinted to bolster tempo? Something Stifle-esque would be great, as would ways of trading card advantage for tempo advantage.
I think there is very little chance of stifle getting reprinted. Since storm doesn't exist in a meaningful sense, its primary application would be to wasteland fetches. With Snapcaster in the format, that doesn't create the kind of gameplay that Wizards seems to want.
I think there is very little chance of stifle getting reprinted. Since storm doesn't exist in a meaningful sense, its primary application would be to wasteland fetches. With Snapcaster in the format, that doesn't create the kind of gameplay that Wizards seems to want.
If it was totally up to Wizards, we would have awful midrange on midrange "pile of good cards" decks bashing into each other like they have for the past 2 years in Standard.
As long as we've got a fresh new thread, I have a question for the reactive Blue crowd. When we talk about empowering Blue/reactive decks, we usually mean Ux Control, often in a draw-go style. But I've started thinking that I'd be just as open - or even more open, even - to strengthening the Ux Tempo shell. We currently have a few Delver lists floating around Tier 2, and as a Knightfall pilot I'd say that deck plays a Tempo role in many matchups, but overall I'd say that the archetype has even worse representation than Control. Given WotC's aversion to printing Draw-Go cards, what would people think about the possibility of giving Blue its identity back through printing some new Tempo tools?
I started thinking about this because of Blue's status in in Standard. It feels like a confused, weak, do-nothing color at present because its usual wheelhouse - permission, filtering, draw, etc. - are things that WotC hates and has weakened or phased out (with a couple notablemistakes/exceptions and very narrow cards). But would the pro-Blue crowd be happy with shifting Blue more towards a Tempo bent? That just seems like a more likely to me, and I actually think it would do as much for the format as empowering reactive Blue Control. It also feels to me like Tempo would take fewer cards to bring up to speed just because its proactive gameplan meshes more with the tools available in the Modern cardpool.
Thoughts? Good idea/bad idea? And what kinds of cards would you like to see printed/reprinted to bolster tempo? Something Stifle-esque would be great, as would ways of trading card advantage for tempo advantage.
I think there is very little chance of stifle getting reprinted. Since storm doesn't exist in a meaningful sense, its primary application would be to wasteland fetches. With Snapcaster in the format, that doesn't create the kind of gameplay that Wizards seems to want.
I'm certainly not holding my breath for a Stifle reprint (although in a Standard without fetches, it would probably be safe). That's why I said Stifle-esque: an on-color, low-to-the-ground tempo piece.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Squelch and Trickbind exist already but see no play, so it seems likely that the effect is just not worth 2 mana. I recall reading something in a WotC article describing development being concerned that Disallow might be too annoying in modern given its interaction with fetchlands. If they were concerned at 3 cmc (even on a more flexible card), I just don't see how they print that effect at 1 cmc. And as I mentioned above, at 2 cmc it doesn't see any play.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
As long as we've got a fresh new thread, I have a question for the reactive Blue crowd. When we talk about empowering Blue/reactive decks, we usually mean Ux Control, often in a draw-go style. But I've started thinking that I'd be just as open - or even more open, even - to strengthening the Ux Tempo shell. We currently have a few Delver lists floating around Tier 2, and as a Knightfall pilot I'd say that deck plays a Tempo role in many matchups, but overall I'd say that the archetype has even worse representation than Control. Given WotC's aversion to printing Draw-Go cards, what would people think about the possibility of giving Blue its identity back through printing some new Tempo tools?
I started thinking about this because of Blue's status in in Standard. It feels like a confused, weak, do-nothing color at present because its usual wheelhouse - permission, filtering, draw, etc. - are things that WotC hates and has weakened or phased out (with a couple notablemistakes/exceptions and very narrow cards). But would the pro-Blue crowd be happy with shifting Blue more towards a Tempo bent? That just seems like a more likely to me, and I actually think it would do as much for the format as empowering reactive Blue Control. It also feels to me like Tempo would take fewer cards to bring up to speed just because its proactive gameplan meshes more with the tools available in the Modern cardpool.
Thoughts? Good idea/bad idea? And what kinds of cards would you like to see printed/reprinted to bolster tempo? Something Stifle-esque would be great, as would ways of trading card advantage for tempo advantage.
Yeah get me some modern playable stifle effect!
I think I posted this a while ago in another thread here:
Stifle Bug UG
Flash
When Stifle Bug enters the battlefield counter target activated or triggered ability
Flying
2/1
Or just make the UG Command cost UG and one of the modes is countering a triggered ability.
UG is hugely underplayed and one of the typical Tempo colour pairs.
Also although I don't see it being printed anytime soon in Standard, what do you guys think about Daze in modern?
I wasn't sure if Infect would play it, but now that it's been nerfed...
The card is pretty much as tempo as it gets, it's a nice safety valve for highly linear strategies, especially fast combo decks, while it restricts you to play a certain amount of islands and actually tends to punish you a lot more than in legacy because of modern shockland based landbase.
Opinions?
Stifle Bug UG
When Stifle Bug enters the battlefield counter target activated or triggered ability
Flying
2/1
Or just make the UG Command cost UG and one of the modes is countering a triggered ability.
UG is hugely underplayed and one of the typical Tempo colour pairs.
Sorcery speed stifle is . Also, if you really make a 2cmc stone rain instant with a 2/1 flyer attached, I think you've made one of the most pushed cards in recent history.
Lately, Modern community members have expressed interest in talking holistically about the challenges and problems facing Modern. Whether or not Modern has "challenges" or "problems" is up for debate, but what is clear is that people want to talk about all of these issues in one unified setting.
As such, Modern staff are opening this thread as a replacement for the old "Banlist Discussion" thread and the "State of the Meta thread." You can use this thread to talk about any and all of these varied Modern issues and their intersection. This thread will be heavily moderated, so be sure to read the rules before posting; anyone who posts in this thread is assumed to have read and understood these rules.
Allowed topics
Prohibited topics and behavior
The mod team will strictly enforce these rules. Please make this a place where people are unafraid to post constructive thoughts.
Update from the 3/13/2017 B&R Announcement:
No changes
Next B&R Announcement:
April 24, 2017
Current DCI Modern Banned List
Here are some reasons that cards are banned in Modern:
Skullclamp
Second Sunrise
The following are links to WotC's in-depth explanations as to why cards have or have not gotten banned since the beginning of the format:
March 2017 no changes
Gitaxian Probe and Golgari Grave-Troll are banned
Eye of Ugin banned, Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek unbanned
Summer Bloom and Splinter Twin banned.
Birthing Pod/Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time banned, Golgari Grave-Troll unbanned
Bitterblossom/Nacatl unbanned. DRS banned
Addition of Second Sunrise
Addition of Bloodbraid Elf and Seething Song
Removal of Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3rd Banned List change with explanations
2nd Banned List change with explanations
1st Banned List change with explanations
Community Cup Announcement with the Initial Ban List.
Old threads:
3/13/2017 - 3/23/2017
12/8/2016 - 3/13/2017
9/28/2016 - 12/10/2016
7/18/2016 - 9/30/2016
4/4/2016 - 7/18/2016
1/16/2016 - 4/4/2016
7/13/2015 - 1/16/2016
1/19/2015 - 7/13/2015
7/14/2014 - 1/19/2015
2/9/2014 - 7/14/2014
1/20/2014 - 2/10/2014
6/23/2014 - 1/20/2014
4/22/2013 - 6/23/213
1/27/2013 - 4/22/13
9/20/2012 - 1/27/2013
7/19/2012 - 9/20/2012
1/9/17
Anyone have odds on Surgical Extraction ever biting the ban dust? I see it as an underplayed major hoser for most decks, and it can be played in most decks. And it has a power-level I think most of us underestimate.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
I don't think it's banworthy, but I do think it's a fantastic hoser that rewards knowledge of opponent's deck. After the Probe ban, I have had 1-2 copies in and out of my main deck flex spots in Grixis.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
The deck is better than half the decks that are already there.
Same goes for "Bant Spirits".
I'm a little surprised to see "Elves" in the "underpowered" section as it seems to have a decent match-up against the top decks of the format.
I started thinking about this because of Blue's status in in Standard. It feels like a confused, weak, do-nothing color at present because its usual wheelhouse - permission, filtering, draw, etc. - are things that WotC hates and has weakened or phased out (with a couple notable mistakes/exceptions and very narrow cards). But would the pro-Blue crowd be happy with shifting Blue more towards a Tempo bent? That just seems like a more likely to me, and I actually think it would do as much for the format as empowering reactive Blue Control. It also feels to me like Tempo would take fewer cards to bring up to speed just because its proactive gameplan meshes more with the tools available in the Modern cardpool.
Thoughts? Good idea/bad idea? And what kinds of cards would you like to see printed/reprinted to bolster tempo? Something Stifle-esque would be great, as would ways of trading card advantage for tempo advantage.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
All it would take is Counterspell and a pushed blue beater.
Spirits
Yes, it was. It was insanely fast. Imagine turn 1 swing for 9+ damage. Yet another reason I despise SSG.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
I'm sorry you took offense to that comment, are you trying to imply that a majority of the Pro Players Club is terrible at Modern? We can start this slippery slope if you want. I never wanted to engage in that conversation but now that you have been hostile towards my comment, you can enlighten me at how much skill is required to be good at Modern.
I didn't say anything about "a majority of the Pro Players Club" being "terrible at modern". I therefore find your suggestion that I implied anything about that set of players to be absurd.
What slippery slope are you referring to? Did you want me to point out more 'skill-testing cards'? I'm not sure how that's a slippery slope - unless you're meaning a slippery slope towards educating yourself. In which case you're welcome.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I think there is very little chance of stifle getting reprinted. Since storm doesn't exist in a meaningful sense, its primary application would be to wasteland fetches. With Snapcaster in the format, that doesn't create the kind of gameplay that Wizards seems to want.
If it was totally up to Wizards, we would have awful midrange on midrange "pile of good cards" decks bashing into each other like they have for the past 2 years in Standard.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNW02fgQTn4&index=4&list=PL5d1KNNFArSOwzVd4j4Sh6aYKbHgKxM_P
Game 2 starts at 8:00 and you get to enjoy a mess of Flickerwisp, Deceiver Exarch, Restoration Angel, Deadeye Harpooner, and Kiki-Jiki triggers, all surrounding an active Nahiri. Really enjoyable stuff!
I'm certainly not holding my breath for a Stifle reprint (although in a Standard without fetches, it would probably be safe). That's why I said Stifle-esque: an on-color, low-to-the-ground tempo piece.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Yeah get me some modern playable stifle effect!
I think I posted this a while ago in another thread here:
Stifle Bug UG
Flash
When Stifle Bug enters the battlefield counter target activated or triggered ability
Flying
2/1
Or just make the UG Command cost UG and one of the modes is countering a triggered ability.
UG is hugely underplayed and one of the typical Tempo colour pairs.
Also although I don't see it being printed anytime soon in Standard, what do you guys think about Daze in modern?
I wasn't sure if Infect would play it, but now that it's been nerfed...
The card is pretty much as tempo as it gets, it's a nice safety valve for highly linear strategies, especially fast combo decks, while it restricts you to play a certain amount of islands and actually tends to punish you a lot more than in legacy because of modern shockland based landbase.
Opinions?
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG