UW Control is certainly knocking grixis decks around. I was playing in the practice rooms with the jund version earlier today, and I just couldn't see anyway to beat the deck, it reminded me of being an infect deck stacked against a lightning bolt deck with removal for days.
Burn seems favorable against UW, beats up on scapeshift, has a good matchup against E-Tron if chalice isn't their to ruin them, a close 50/50 against grixis.
I wanna say burn is a little favored against affinity? I've heard it's close from both players though.
I need to get better with grixis, since I suck with it right now, but man...burn seems good to spike right now.
1. Here's my take on it. Burn vs. UW is very close. I've both played it and seen it from both sides, so I can say this (I play test with Burn occasionally).
2. Burn does do pretty well vs. Titan Shift, but not if Titan Shift is ready for it. I have a friend who runs 2 Kitchen Finks and Thragtusk in addition to the 2 Obstinate Baloth and 2 Summoner's Pact that every T Shift player runs. Also, there is some talk about Life Goes On in the SB as a 2 of. That card is horrible for Burn, especially if a Sakura Tribe-Elder is sacrificed.
3. I used to think that Burn was favored against E Tron, but it's very draw dependent. Chalice, like you say, or just drawing large creatures ends Burn's day. I'd safely say it's close to 50/50 now, which goes against my initial testing and thoughts, given the former Bant Eldrazi/Burn matchup.
4. Affinity is certainly favored against Burn, but it's close. I'd say it's 53/47 preboard and 48/52 post board for Affinity (Destructive Revelry is a pain).
Maybe not garbage, but pure UW 'Colonnade Beats' Control is like watching paint dry for some of us.
I actually kind of enjoy it, since it doesn't happen often in Modern. A friend whose on a team (so he can't tell me everything) ran UW Control at the same PPTQ. He had a draw with UW Control and beat another in the final round to make the top 8, 1-0 on turn 4 of turns. It was actually very fun watching the game and I mean singular, game. It looked like it ended up being a case of my friend's deck being slightly better, with an extra Cryptic Command and Elspeth, Sun's Champion that the other guy didn't have (the other guy gave me my only loss in the Swiss in round 1 though).
As for UW Control vs. E Tron, I'd say it's 50/50, varying wildly on the list. Some have 4 Spreading Seas, some number of Tec Edge, some number of Ghost Quarter, and some number of Ceremonious Rejection in the side. I personally hated it when I ran UW. I would slow the E Tron opponent down with mana denial, but they'd slowly get out of it since I had no pressure. Then I'd counter 4-5 things, but I'd run out of counters before they ran out of gas. I know it's not the way the matchup should go, but it was my experience and the main reason I quit trying UW Control (the other reason being I never faced GDS in 4 small FNM type tournaments).
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
UW Control is certainly knocking grixis decks around. I was playing in the practice rooms with the jund version earlier today, and I just couldn't see anyway to beat the deck, it reminded me of being an infect deck stacked against a lightning bolt deck with removal for days.
Burn seems favorable against UW, beats up on scapeshift, has a good matchup against E-Tron if chalice isn't their to ruin them, a close 50/50 against grixis.
I wanna say burn is a little favored against affinity? I've heard it's close from both players though.
I need to get better with grixis, since I suck with it right now, but man...burn seems good to spike right now.
1. Here's my take on it. Burn vs. UW is very close. I've both played it and seen it from both sides, so I can say this (I play test with Burn occasionally).
2. Burn does do pretty well vs. Titan Shift, but not if Titan Shift is ready for it. I have a friend who runs 2 Kitchen Finks and Thragtusk in addition to the 2 Obstinate Baloth and 2 Summoner's Pact that every T Shift player runs. Also, there is some talk about Life Goes On in the SB as a 2 of. That card is horrible for Burn, especially if a Sakura Tribe-Elder is sacrificed.
3. I used to think that Burn was favored against E Tron, but it's very draw dependent. Chalice, like you say, or just drawing large creatures ends Burn's day. I'd safely say it's close to 50/50 now, which goes against my initial testing and thoughts, given the former Bant Eldrazi/Burn matchup.
4. Affinity is certainly favored against Burn, but it's close. I'd say it's 53/47 preboard and 48/52 post board for Affinity (Destructive Revelry is a pain).
Maybe not garbage, but pure UW 'Colonnade Beats' Control is like watching paint dry for some of us.
I actually kind of enjoy it, since it doesn't happen often in Modern. A friend whose on a team (so he can't tell me everything) ran UW Control at the same PPTQ. He had a draw with UW Control and beat another in the final round to make the top 8, 1-0 on turn 4 of turns. It was actually very fun watching the game and I mean singular, game. It looked like it ended up being a case of my friend's deck being slightly better, with an extra Cryptic Command and Elspeth, Sun's Champion that the other guy didn't have (the other guy gave me my only loss in the Swiss in round 1 though).
As for UW Control vs. E Tron, I'd say it's 50/50, varying wildly on the list. Some have 4 Spreading Seas, some number of Tec Edge, some number of Ghost Quarter, and some number of Ceremonious Rejection in the side. I personally hated it when I ran UW. I would slow the E Tron opponent down with mana denial, but they'd slowly get out of it since I had no pressure. Then I'd counter 4-5 things, but I'd run out of counters before they ran out of gas. I know it's not the way the matchup should go, but it was my experience and the main reason I quit trying UW Control (the other reason being I never faced GDS in 4 small FNM type tournaments).
Pretty bad when a UW deck whose main deck is suited for big mana is hardly 50/50.
The the matchup is tough because they just top deck wayyy better than you. And sometimes thoughtknot your much needed wrath.
If you're a blue player who doesn't like UW control because it's too slow and doesn't like Grixis DS because it's not control enough, I don't know what to tell you.
I'd be fine with a Twin unban, but it's hard to find blue players too sympathetic. Temur Scapeshift and storm are other options for blue players who are dying for a blue combo deck.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Through much introspection and self discovery, and play testing over the year plus, I'm not a 'blue' player, and I'm not a 'control' player.
I'm a Control Combo player, URx preferably.
I want Bolt, Snaps, and Remand in my 60, and I want to be able to punish someone for tapping out with an instant win or combo that may as well be one.
Thats left me, after hundreds of dollars, probably approaching $1000, with 2 decks available to me that fit what I want.
Turns, and UWR Kiki-Resto.
I'm at peace with that. The only reason I didnt buy into Scapeshift, is because it is reliant on 1 Card, Scapeshift and I didnt want to be on the short end of another 'We think Scapeshift players can go with a a less effective option in X...', if/when Scapeshift ever got too good for Wizards liking.
I'm playing UW since the Probe ban and it's been pretty ok to be honest. Gideon of The Trials really made the deck better overall since you don't need to play unsynergistic value sticks like Kitchen Finks, and gives the deck a more well-rounded Prison plan to go along your Seas and Wraths.
Burn is practically unwinnable without Walls, with them it's 50/50 depending on your sideboard. The matchups comes down to you having tons of cheap counters like Dispel and Negate, +a clock like Geist/Queller/Clique/Gideon. If you manage to stabilize you are ok.
Against E-Tron, it comes down to their draws more than yours. If they go bananas with a lot of Temples and/or quick Tron, it's hard, since the Eldrazi creatures are good clocks by their own. Chalice of the Void gives them more free wins than they deserve. At most the matchup feels 50/50 in both games.
Blessed alliance is an amazing card that UW players can play against Burn, especially if you can snap it back. I find it hard to believe that Burn is umwinnable for UW control without walls.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Blessed alliance is an amazing card that UW players can play against Burn, especially if you can snap it back. I find it hard to believe that Burn is umwinnable for UW control without walls.
It turns into a top deck situation in a lot of games, and UW is pretty bad at that, or was, and at that point they are top decking bolts, or things like bolts, and you are top decking narrow answers.
Blessed alliance is an amazing card that UW players can play against Burn, especially if you can snap it back. I find it hard to believe that Burn is umwinnable for UW control without walls.
He's mostly talking about game 1. Everything Gustavitohouses said pretty much jives with how I saw the matchup. I had actually forgotten how Gideon of the Trials had replaced Kitchen Finks. I haven't had time to test it myself, although I've seen it a bit recently. After the SB, things get much better for UW. Blessed Alliance, Timely Reinforcements, Dispel, Geist of Saint Traft, and taking out slow or useless cards puts it in UW's favor after board. Before board, you best believe that most UW lists that are successful in a well rounded meta will have a tough time with Burn. Cards like Cryptic Command that house other strategies, are pretty meh against Burn.
I also agree 100% in the assessment of the E Tron matchup. But I don't feel that UW should necessarily "beat" E Tron. It would probably give it slightly more positive matchups than a few other decks right now, although I'm not sure if that's good or bad.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Through much introspection and self discovery, and play testing over the year plus, I'm not a 'blue' player, and I'm not a 'control' player.
I'm a Control Combo player, URx preferably.
I want Bolt, Snaps, and Remand in my 60, and I want to be able to punish someone for tapping out with an instant win or combo that may as well be one.
Thats left me, after hundreds of dollars, probably approaching $1000, with 2 decks available to me that fit what I want.
Turns, and UWR Kiki-Resto.
I'm at peace with that. The only reason I didnt buy into Scapeshift, is because it is reliant on 1 Card, Scapeshift and I didnt want to be on the short end of another 'We think Scapeshift players can go with a a less effective option in X...', if/when Scapeshift ever got too good for Wizards liking.
I'm not asking for your sympathy either way. :]
Basically similar boat here. I spent well over $1,000 as a result of the Twin ban, finding and experimenting with various decks before finding something I finally actually enjoyed playing (Delver) then that had to begrudgingly turn into a Discard/Shadow deck. I perfectly mirror the desire to build a deck from 4 bolt, 4 snap, 4 remand, and go from there (and have been doing just that for nearly 2 years now to little avail). Shadow has been pretty good so far, but I'm personally finding nearly every deck I play against just miserable. Not miserable in the sense that I lose or win, just... unfun, unenjoyable. Sure, it's purely subjective, but it seems I'm either massively favored and stomp my opponent, or I'm massively unfavored and get blown out by hate cards. Very few of my match outcomes feel like two people playing with each other and instead feel like two decks playing at each other. Going out to actually play with other people seems like more and more a waste of time and money each time because the games themselves are so unsatisfying.
My personal movement lately has been to away from Modern as a whole, not to the point of selling my cards, but at least stepping away from competitive Modern. I'd much rather crack open a cold one with the boys and play Commander (which has been fantastic fun this past month), or sit and play various videogames (PC sim racing at the moment) that don't require me to spend hundreds more dollars for things I already own (MTGO), or playing board games with the Mrs (who doesn't play Magic). I haven't been to Modern Monday in weeks and have little desire to return at the moment. Maybe things will change in August? We'll see. Everyone else seems to be fine with this mess of a meta, so maybe I'm just the odd one out.
Plus, being a teacher, summers are long and boring. I'm definitely someone who loves to passionately argue things I believe in, and I often get feisty and fiery in debates (definitely not limited to this forum). Either way, I'll do my best to try and avoid stirring the pot for a while, so long as I don't need to address some grossly misleading or blatantly false statements about subjects near and dear to my heart.
Does UW Control have a good matchup against E-tron, anyone familiar with the matchup?
I play against it regularly in paper, and it's pretty even. I'd say I feel slightly favored, but ask a UW player, and they might say they feel slightly favored. The games tend to go quite long. Honestly, I feel like the Jeskai Saheeli/Nahiri matchups are harder for ET because they can hold on then combo off, whereas UW has to grind us out. But in a tournament setting any UWx match could easily go either way. My main focus would be winning game 1 in case game 2 went to time so I could still get the match win.
What you say it's not far off from the truth, but I still believe UW Control is slightly favoured. Spreading Seas, GQ, Tec Edge, even some sweepers or spot removals and of course Ceremonious Rejection out of the board ensure at least an even matchup.
UW Control has a fine matchup vs Tron also.
I consider both to be 55-45 in UW's favour and that's a strong motive for a blue mage to play the deck. But the blue players in here still consider this deck garbage
PS: Sheridan was right. Titanshift seems like a bad matchup for UW Control and if it's on the rise(which is true), that's some bad news.
Re: E-Tron
It's "even" with the caveat that E-Tron can nut draw you and UW can't really do the same. A good UW hand is merely strong. A good E-Tron hand is nuts, especially on the play. E-Tron can also get in situations where they just topdeck a win like Smasher. UW is rarely in a topdeck-and-win scenario. That said, it's still very close to 50-50.
Re: Titanshift
Bad, bad matchup in G1. You have so many dead cards that don't really interact favorably with their gameplan. At a certain point, you just start losing to the Valakut slowroll. G2+ is better depending on your board, but it's still rough.
Through much introspection and self discovery, and play testing over the year plus, I'm not a 'blue' player, and I'm not a 'control' player.
I'm a Control Combo player, URx preferably.
I want Bolt, Snaps, and Remand in my 60, and I want to be able to punish someone for tapping out with an instant win or combo that may as well be one.
Thats left me, after hundreds of dollars, probably approaching $1000, with 2 decks available to me that fit what I want.
Turns, and UWR Kiki-Resto.
I'm at peace with that. The only reason I didnt buy into Scapeshift, is because it is reliant on 1 Card, Scapeshift and I didnt want to be on the short end of another 'We think Scapeshift players can go with a a less effective option in X...', if/when Scapeshift ever got too good for Wizards liking.
I'm not asking for your sympathy either way. :]
Basically similar boat here. I spent well over $1,000 as a result of the Twin ban, finding and experimenting with various decks before finding something I finally actually enjoyed playing (Delver) then that had to begrudgingly turn into a Discard/Shadow deck. I perfectly mirror the desire to build a deck from 4 bolt, 4 snap, 4 remand, and go from there (and have been doing just that for nearly 2 years now to little avail). Shadow has been pretty good so far, but I'm personally finding nearly every deck I play against just miserable. Not miserable in the sense that I lose or win, just... unfun, unenjoyable. Sure, it's purely subjective, but it seems I'm either massively favored and stomp my opponent, or I'm massively unfavored and get blown out by hate cards. Very few of my match outcomes feel like two people playing with each other and instead feel like two decks playing at each other. Going out to actually play with other people seems like more and more a waste of time and money each time because the games themselves are so unsatisfying.
My personal movement lately has been to away from Modern as a whole, not to the point of selling my cards, but at least stepping away from competitive Modern. I'd much rather crack open a cold one with the boys and play Commander (which has been fantastic fun this past month), or sit and play various videogames (PC sim racing at the moment) that don't require me to spend hundreds more dollars for things I already own (MTGO), or playing board games with the Mrs (who doesn't play Magic). I haven't been to Modern Monday in weeks and have little desire to return at the moment. Maybe things will change in August? We'll see. Everyone else seems to be fine with this mess of a meta, so maybe I'm just the odd one out.
Plus, being a teacher, summers are long and boring. I'm definitely someone who loves to passionately argue things I believe in, and I often get feisty and fiery in debates (definitely not limited to this forum). Either way, I'll do my best to try and avoid stirring the pot for a while, so long as I don't need to address some grossly misleading or blatantly false statements about subjects near and dear to my heart.
I think we are in very similar situations. I used to love modern through 2012-2015 and I pretty much exclusively played modern. After eldrazi winter I have just been trying to re capture that magic but it hasn't been working. At this point in my life I would rather just stay at home or go out to eat with some friends than play current modern. I'm just tired of putting in the stress, time, and money for something so unrewarding. I'm done going to tournaments only to be paired against storm, tron and dredge all day. Hopefully the meta changes but people seem happy with modern so I doubt it will change. The games just are not rewarding or fun due to the reasons you mentioned
Cfusion, sounds like you're just in need of a break in modern
I was busy moving across the country, but between April to December, I thought modern was a hot garbage format, and enjoyed it coming back around the dredge and probe ban.
I just had a good night with grixis shadow, never felt like i was playing AT someone, unfortunately 2 of my 4 opponents were, it's kinda hard to have meaningful interaction against 8Rack and Bogles, but I was personally interacting a ton. Discarding, pressuring, snapping a ton of spells, riding a fat fish to victory, and getting ahead of my opponent to the point where they have to chump block big shadows.
Deck is great, unfortunately I felt like I was facing so much hate
Don't know the specifics, but BW 8rack seems favored
Little Kid junk was designed to beat discard fair decks
limped my way to victory against Esper Control
Bogles seems kinda favored for shadow? I only won because I had fat shadows from the start, drawing 2 stubborns and 2 snaps is an unlikely scenario.
I'll be excited to play with E-Tron when the pieces arrive.
I have a lot of the pieces to Titanshift but the deck doesn't excite me---it usually feels like the lines are so obvious and you either win or you don't
May eventually get dredge as a combo deck, but GY hate is too strong and plentiful right now.
Jund shadow looks atrocious to play, between my LGS, MTGO and watching the streams, the deck looks so unfavored in a lot of matchups now. I really despise delirium, screw that mechanic.
Through much introspection and self discovery, and play testing over the year plus, I'm not a 'blue' player, and I'm not a 'control' player.
I'm a Control Combo player, URx preferably.
I want Bolt, Snaps, and Remand in my 60, and I want to be able to punish someone for tapping out with an instant win or combo that may as well be one.
Thats left me, after hundreds of dollars, probably approaching $1000, with 2 decks available to me that fit what I want.
Turns, and UWR Kiki-Resto.
I'm at peace with that. The only reason I didnt buy into Scapeshift, is because it is reliant on 1 Card, Scapeshift and I didnt want to be on the short end of another 'We think Scapeshift players can go with a a less effective option in X...', if/when Scapeshift ever got too good for Wizards liking.
I'm not asking for your sympathy either way. :]
I know we've been through this before and you don't like Jeskai Saheeli, but it's pretty much exactly what you are describing. Prior to having 7 mana, yes, it's not an instant combo and they have a turn to respond, but Planeswalkers are hard to remove if you have a blocker (Wall of Omens) in front of it. But is letting the opponent have a turn to "interact" such a bad thing for the format? Seems hypocritical to say otherwise.
Also wanted mention this after reading back over some responses -
SCG Classics are not "side events". That's a laughable statement. They are full 9 round Swiss tournaments, the same as Day 1 of an Open, and they feature several hundred players.
The following are all the "real" tournaments IMHO:
GP
SCG Invitational
SCG Open
SCG Classic
Let me know if there are others of that caliber that I'm missing.
I'm personally not as impressed by finishes in any other kind of smaller tournaments (3-5 rounds) which is why I put all my stock in the published results of these events. Being a software developer, I'm considering taking all the results from these tournaments for the year, or at least the last few months, and putting them into a database. I'd like to be able to run queries and build charts that are not possible with the way the data is presented. Once I get some tools in place, it would be easy to add new results each week. It would also be cool to see historical trends.
I think Jeskai Saheeli is a bad deck, if some some strange reason it ever hit tier 1, it could not survive the hate
It just plays with so many bad cards int he main 60
4x Saheeli herself is a god awful planeswalker
Felidar is a bad 1/4 thats crazy overpriced
I've never thought spreading seas was ever a good card outside of merfolk.
I'm so happy rejection was released, it made blue so much better in the format as a whole
Bolt went from the face of modern to at best mediocre.
I think it's a bad deck with some decent results by good players, is my theory.
Jeskai Qweller would definitely be my recommendation for someone wanting to play a control game with some proactivity to it, it's definitely looking to bolt snap bolt for the win. I already own jund, junk, shadow decks, burn so me buying into another fair deck seems like a bad idea, it looks fun and I'd love to try it though
Also--Grixis shadow is definitely as interactive, if not more than Splinter Twin ever was. Gkourou was correct, a nice chunk of the time you just jammed the combo, especially game 1 because your opponent refused to interact
That rarely ever happens with grixis, at it's best it can discard and force unprofitable blocks until it wins, thats when its the least interactive
Through much introspection and self discovery, and play testing over the year plus, I'm not a 'blue' player, and I'm not a 'control' player.
I'm a Control Combo player, URx preferably.
I want Bolt, Snaps, and Remand in my 60, and I want to be able to punish someone for tapping out with an instant win or combo that may as well be one.
Thats left me, after hundreds of dollars, probably approaching $1000, with 2 decks available to me that fit what I want.
Turns, and UWR Kiki-Resto.
I'm at peace with that. The only reason I didnt buy into Scapeshift, is because it is reliant on 1 Card, Scapeshift and I didnt want to be on the short end of another 'We think Scapeshift players can go with a a less effective option in X...', if/when Scapeshift ever got too good for Wizards liking.
I'm not asking for your sympathy either way. :]
This post strikes me as very mature. Similarly, I'm a thresh player at heart, UGx specifically. But there is no competitive thresh option in Modern in these colors. You want to play Remand, Snap, Bolt, and a combo; I want to play Pierce, Delver, Goyf, and reach. The best I can do right now is Counter-Cat, just as the best you can do is something like Resto-Kiki. Obviously, neither of these decks are top-tier.
That's okay though. While I can enjoy local and moderate competitive success with anything in Modern thanks to Wizards' laudable management of the format, I'm not entitled to have my very specific deck preference be a top-tier option with few bad matchups, and neither is anyone else. Of course such decks will emerge naturally, but as a result of circumstance, not of artificial format grooming to appeal to one subset of players. One of the reasons the TDF upsets so many users here is their entitlement---why should they have their very specific deck be Tier 1 when I have to play a rogue deck to get what I need out of Modern? Just because their deck was Tier 1 before? For the record, Delver was indeed a Tier 1 Modern deck prior to RTR, albeit in a more midrange configuration than I like.)
Once the other Twin players come to grips with the fact that they don't somehow deserve to have their preferences exemplified in top-tier form, we'll be able to move on as a... well, as a thread, and talk more productively about Modern's actual shortcomings. We can only hope they follow in your footsteps!
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I think for me it really was just about finding what I wanted Twin for, what was the draw to the deck and why was I struggling to find a replacement.
There are powerful decks.
There are counter spell decks.
There are bolt decks.
There are unfair decks.
Twin was all of those things at various times, even within the same game let alone match! Nothing else was like that, but you touch on a great thing. Right now, with how the format stands, you can play Tier 3 decks, and still have success. Maybe Kiki was slow before, well its a bit slower meta now, thats not the worst thing you could be doing.
I think a few of us are not about 'entitlement' of our deck or strats being Tier 1, its more about having that feeling still exist, somewhere. Granted hellfire is about that archetype diversity, but thats not a Twin issue.
I know we've been through this before and you don't like Jeskai Saheeli, but it's pretty much exactly what you are describing. Prior to having 7 mana, yes, it's not an instant combo and they have a turn to respond, but Planeswalkers are hard to remove if you have a blocker (Wall of Omens) in front of it. But is letting the opponent have a turn to "interact" such a bad thing for the format? Seems hypocritical to say otherwise.
Its not at all the same. Sure if you get to drop one or the other you have a chance at an win at sorcery speed, but it doesnt have the same feel at all. its hard enough to articulate, it took me a long time to get to grips with why I feel the way I do as it is. :]
I'm a little softer on the deck than Spsiegel (and you are wrong on Spreading Sea's I think Spsiegel, its a house right now especially if you can flicker it for value and to lock out a different land) but its not how I want to play. Queller is closer but Kiki-Resto is the goods for me right now. :]
Through much introspection and self discovery, and play testing over the year plus, I'm not a 'blue' player, and I'm not a 'control' player.
I'm a Control Combo player, URx preferably.
I want Bolt, Snaps, and Remand in my 60, and I want to be able to punish someone for tapping out with an instant win or combo that may as well be one.
Thats left me, after hundreds of dollars, probably approaching $1000, with 2 decks available to me that fit what I want.
Turns, and UWR Kiki-Resto.
I'm at peace with that. The only reason I didnt buy into Scapeshift, is because it is reliant on 1 Card, Scapeshift and I didnt want to be on the short end of another 'We think Scapeshift players can go with a a less effective option in X...', if/when Scapeshift ever got too good for Wizards liking.
I'm not asking for your sympathy either way. :]
Basically similar boat here. I spent well over $1,000 as a result of the Twin ban, finding and experimenting with various decks before finding something I finally actually enjoyed playing (Delver) then that had to begrudgingly turn into a Discard/Shadow deck. I perfectly mirror the desire to build a deck from 4 bolt, 4 snap, 4 remand, and go from there (and have been doing just that for nearly 2 years now to little avail). Shadow has been pretty good so far, but I'm personally finding nearly every deck I play against just miserable. Not miserable in the sense that I lose or win, just... unfun, unenjoyable. Sure, it's purely subjective, but it seems I'm either massively favored and stomp my opponent, or I'm massively unfavored and get blown out by hate cards. Very few of my match outcomes feel like two people playing with each other and instead feel like two decks playing at each other. Going out to actually play with other people seems like more and more a waste of time and money each time because the games themselves are so unsatisfying.
My personal movement lately has been to away from Modern as a whole, not to the point of selling my cards, but at least stepping away from competitive Modern. I'd much rather crack open a cold one with the boys and play Commander (which has been fantastic fun this past month), or sit and play various videogames (PC sim racing at the moment) that don't require me to spend hundreds more dollars for things I already own (MTGO), or playing board games with the Mrs (who doesn't play Magic). I haven't been to Modern Monday in weeks and have little desire to return at the moment. Maybe things will change in August? We'll see. Everyone else seems to be fine with this mess of a meta, so maybe I'm just the odd one out.
Plus, being a teacher, summers are long and boring. I'm definitely someone who loves to passionately argue things I believe in, and I often get feisty and fiery in debates (definitely not limited to this forum). Either way, I'll do my best to try and avoid stirring the pot for a while, so long as I don't need to address some grossly misleading or blatantly false statements about subjects near and dear to my heart.
I think we are in very similar situations. I used to love modern through 2012-2015 and I pretty much exclusively played modern. After eldrazi winter I have just been trying to re capture that magic but it hasn't been working. At this point in my life I would rather just stay at home or go out to eat with some friends than play current modern. I'm just tired of putting in the stress, time, and money for something so unrewarding. I'm done going to tournaments only to be paired against storm, tron and dredge all day. Hopefully the meta changes but people seem happy with modern so I doubt it will change. The games just are not rewarding or fun due to the reasons you mentioned
This just isn't the same modern as those days. And Imo they where better.
They had Thier problems of course, but at least a room full of poeple at fnms had more;jund, uwr control, Twin and pod. With a healthy dose of affinity tron and boggles ect #linear
There felt to be a balance between linear and/or solitaire and grindy interactive games. And I miss that.
Where as nowadays both online and on fnm its leaned more towards the linear spectrum. And although there are still some non linear interactive and grindy decks around. That number is certainly less than it used to be.
And I know that certain decks in the top tiers currently are the culprits of this.
But poeple just seem to be loving it on this forum so there's that..
Basically swap 2x Liliana of the Veil, 1x Kolaghan's Command, 2x Terminate, 1x Fatal Push for 3x Lingering Souls and 3x Path to Exile. Plus a handful of lands.
Once the other Twin players come to grips with the fact that they don't somehow deserve to have their preferences exemplified in top-tier form, we'll be able to move on as a... well, as a thread, and talk more productively about Modern's actual shortcomings. We can only hope they follow in your footsteps!
It was never about entitlement, but about the dissatisfaction for a decision that was wrong at the time and remains wrong to this day.
I've made peace with it as well (in case you missed the massive post on the previous page), by simply moving away from competitive Modern for the time being. But it seems so many of the people who hate talking about Twin still want to talk about Twin. Carry on.
So, let's see if someone can solve this mystery for me.
Today's COMPETITIVE MODERN CONSTRUCTED LEAGUE is out.
And there is one Esper Shadow and one Grixis Shadow deck, both sharing 30-40 of the exact same cards. How can that be?
The land base alone already accounts for a massive "difference" in card names: (4 Marsh, 4 Strand, 2 Fountain, 1 Shrine). That's 11 different cards, before getting to the only main deck differences of -Terminate -K Command +Path +Lingering Souls. That's a 17-card difference!! Way more than the necessary 10-card difference they stated in the announcement.
I am locking this thread while I roll out some changes to State of the Meta! We will have a new thread out shortly, so sit tight! --CavalryWolfPack
EDIT: New thread is live. I understand there will be a lot of questions, and I've done my best to explain them there. You can find the new thread here. Please understand that these decisions are temporary, and I will unlock this thread after two months.
Spirits
1. Here's my take on it. Burn vs. UW is very close. I've both played it and seen it from both sides, so I can say this (I play test with Burn occasionally).
2. Burn does do pretty well vs. Titan Shift, but not if Titan Shift is ready for it. I have a friend who runs 2 Kitchen Finks and Thragtusk in addition to the 2 Obstinate Baloth and 2 Summoner's Pact that every T Shift player runs. Also, there is some talk about Life Goes On in the SB as a 2 of. That card is horrible for Burn, especially if a Sakura Tribe-Elder is sacrificed.
3. I used to think that Burn was favored against E Tron, but it's very draw dependent. Chalice, like you say, or just drawing large creatures ends Burn's day. I'd safely say it's close to 50/50 now, which goes against my initial testing and thoughts, given the former Bant Eldrazi/Burn matchup.
4. Affinity is certainly favored against Burn, but it's close. I'd say it's 53/47 preboard and 48/52 post board for Affinity (Destructive Revelry is a pain).
I actually kind of enjoy it, since it doesn't happen often in Modern. A friend whose on a team (so he can't tell me everything) ran UW Control at the same PPTQ. He had a draw with UW Control and beat another in the final round to make the top 8, 1-0 on turn 4 of turns.
As for UW Control vs. E Tron, I'd say it's 50/50, varying wildly on the list. Some have 4 Spreading Seas, some number of Tec Edge, some number of Ghost Quarter, and some number of Ceremonious Rejection in the side. I personally hated it when I ran UW. I would slow the E Tron opponent down with mana denial, but they'd slowly get out of it since I had no pressure. Then I'd counter 4-5 things, but I'd run out of counters before they ran out of gas. I know it's not the way the matchup should go, but it was my experience and the main reason I quit trying UW Control (the other reason being I never faced GDS in 4 small FNM type tournaments).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Pretty bad when a UW deck whose main deck is suited for big mana is hardly 50/50.
The the matchup is tough because they just top deck wayyy better than you. And sometimes thoughtknot your much needed wrath.
decks playing:
none
If only UW Control could have threats like:
If you're a blue player who doesn't like UW control because it's too slow and doesn't like Grixis DS because it's not control enough, I don't know what to tell you.
I'd be fine with a Twin unban, but it's hard to find blue players too sympathetic. Temur Scapeshift and storm are other options for blue players who are dying for a blue combo deck.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I'm a Control Combo player, URx preferably.
I want Bolt, Snaps, and Remand in my 60, and I want to be able to punish someone for tapping out with an instant win or combo that may as well be one.
Thats left me, after hundreds of dollars, probably approaching $1000, with 2 decks available to me that fit what I want.
Turns, and UWR Kiki-Resto.
I'm at peace with that. The only reason I didnt buy into Scapeshift, is because it is reliant on 1 Card, Scapeshift and I didnt want to be on the short end of another 'We think Scapeshift players can go with a a less effective option in X...', if/when Scapeshift ever got too good for Wizards liking.
I'm not asking for your sympathy either way. :]
Spirits
Burn is practically unwinnable without Walls, with them it's 50/50 depending on your sideboard. The matchups comes down to you having tons of cheap counters like Dispel and Negate, +a clock like Geist/Queller/Clique/Gideon. If you manage to stabilize you are ok.
Against E-Tron, it comes down to their draws more than yours. If they go bananas with a lot of Temples and/or quick Tron, it's hard, since the Eldrazi creatures are good clocks by their own. Chalice of the Void gives them more free wins than they deserve. At most the matchup feels 50/50 in both games.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
It turns into a top deck situation in a lot of games, and UW is pretty bad at that, or was, and at that point they are top decking bolts, or things like bolts, and you are top decking narrow answers.
Spirits
He's mostly talking about game 1. Everything Gustavitohouses said pretty much jives with how I saw the matchup. I had actually forgotten how Gideon of the Trials had replaced Kitchen Finks. I haven't had time to test it myself, although I've seen it a bit recently. After the SB, things get much better for UW. Blessed Alliance, Timely Reinforcements, Dispel, Geist of Saint Traft, and taking out slow or useless cards puts it in UW's favor after board. Before board, you best believe that most UW lists that are successful in a well rounded meta will have a tough time with Burn. Cards like Cryptic Command that house other strategies, are pretty meh against Burn.
I also agree 100% in the assessment of the E Tron matchup. But I don't feel that UW should necessarily "beat" E Tron. It would probably give it slightly more positive matchups than a few other decks right now, although I'm not sure if that's good or bad.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Basically similar boat here. I spent well over $1,000 as a result of the Twin ban, finding and experimenting with various decks before finding something I finally actually enjoyed playing (Delver) then that had to begrudgingly turn into a Discard/Shadow deck. I perfectly mirror the desire to build a deck from 4 bolt, 4 snap, 4 remand, and go from there (and have been doing just that for nearly 2 years now to little avail). Shadow has been pretty good so far, but I'm personally finding nearly every deck I play against just miserable. Not miserable in the sense that I lose or win, just... unfun, unenjoyable. Sure, it's purely subjective, but it seems I'm either massively favored and stomp my opponent, or I'm massively unfavored and get blown out by hate cards. Very few of my match outcomes feel like two people playing with each other and instead feel like two decks playing at each other. Going out to actually play with other people seems like more and more a waste of time and money each time because the games themselves are so unsatisfying.
My personal movement lately has been to away from Modern as a whole, not to the point of selling my cards, but at least stepping away from competitive Modern. I'd much rather crack open a cold one with the boys and play Commander (which has been fantastic fun this past month), or sit and play various videogames (PC sim racing at the moment) that don't require me to spend hundreds more dollars for things I already own (MTGO), or playing board games with the Mrs (who doesn't play Magic). I haven't been to Modern Monday in weeks and have little desire to return at the moment. Maybe things will change in August? We'll see. Everyone else seems to be fine with this mess of a meta, so maybe I'm just the odd one out.
Plus, being a teacher, summers are long and boring. I'm definitely someone who loves to passionately argue things I believe in, and I often get feisty and fiery in debates (definitely not limited to this forum). Either way, I'll do my best to try and avoid stirring the pot for a while, so long as I don't need to address some grossly misleading or blatantly false statements about subjects near and dear to my heart.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Re: E-Tron
It's "even" with the caveat that E-Tron can nut draw you and UW can't really do the same. A good UW hand is merely strong. A good E-Tron hand is nuts, especially on the play. E-Tron can also get in situations where they just topdeck a win like Smasher. UW is rarely in a topdeck-and-win scenario. That said, it's still very close to 50-50.
Re: Titanshift
Bad, bad matchup in G1. You have so many dead cards that don't really interact favorably with their gameplan. At a certain point, you just start losing to the Valakut slowroll. G2+ is better depending on your board, but it's still rough.
I think we are in very similar situations. I used to love modern through 2012-2015 and I pretty much exclusively played modern. After eldrazi winter I have just been trying to re capture that magic but it hasn't been working. At this point in my life I would rather just stay at home or go out to eat with some friends than play current modern. I'm just tired of putting in the stress, time, and money for something so unrewarding. I'm done going to tournaments only to be paired against storm, tron and dredge all day. Hopefully the meta changes but people seem happy with modern so I doubt it will change. The games just are not rewarding or fun due to the reasons you mentioned
I was busy moving across the country, but between April to December, I thought modern was a hot garbage format, and enjoyed it coming back around the dredge and probe ban.
I just had a good night with grixis shadow, never felt like i was playing AT someone, unfortunately 2 of my 4 opponents were, it's kinda hard to have meaningful interaction against 8Rack and Bogles, but I was personally interacting a ton. Discarding, pressuring, snapping a ton of spells, riding a fat fish to victory, and getting ahead of my opponent to the point where they have to chump block big shadows.
Deck is great, unfortunately I felt like I was facing so much hate
Don't know the specifics, but BW 8rack seems favored
Little Kid junk was designed to beat discard fair decks
limped my way to victory against Esper Control
Bogles seems kinda favored for shadow? I only won because I had fat shadows from the start, drawing 2 stubborns and 2 snaps is an unlikely scenario.
I'll be excited to play with E-Tron when the pieces arrive.
I have a lot of the pieces to Titanshift but the deck doesn't excite me---it usually feels like the lines are so obvious and you either win or you don't
May eventually get dredge as a combo deck, but GY hate is too strong and plentiful right now.
Jund shadow looks atrocious to play, between my LGS, MTGO and watching the streams, the deck looks so unfavored in a lot of matchups now. I really despise delirium, screw that mechanic.
I know we've been through this before and you don't like Jeskai Saheeli, but it's pretty much exactly what you are describing. Prior to having 7 mana, yes, it's not an instant combo and they have a turn to respond, but Planeswalkers are hard to remove if you have a blocker (Wall of Omens) in front of it. But is letting the opponent have a turn to "interact" such a bad thing for the format? Seems hypocritical to say otherwise.
25th at Charlotte Open, running 4x Bolt, 3x Snapcaster, 4x Remand, plus a Jace!
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=114577
SCG Classics are not "side events". That's a laughable statement. They are full 9 round Swiss tournaments, the same as Day 1 of an Open, and they feature several hundred players.
The following are all the "real" tournaments IMHO:
GP
SCG Invitational
SCG Open
SCG Classic
Let me know if there are others of that caliber that I'm missing.
I'm personally not as impressed by finishes in any other kind of smaller tournaments (3-5 rounds) which is why I put all my stock in the published results of these events. Being a software developer, I'm considering taking all the results from these tournaments for the year, or at least the last few months, and putting them into a database. I'd like to be able to run queries and build charts that are not possible with the way the data is presented. Once I get some tools in place, it would be easy to add new results each week. It would also be cool to see historical trends.
It just plays with so many bad cards int he main 60
4x Saheeli herself is a god awful planeswalker
Felidar is a bad 1/4 thats crazy overpriced
I've never thought spreading seas was ever a good card outside of merfolk.
I'm so happy rejection was released, it made blue so much better in the format as a whole
Bolt went from the face of modern to at best mediocre.
I think it's a bad deck with some decent results by good players, is my theory.
Jeskai Qweller would definitely be my recommendation for someone wanting to play a control game with some proactivity to it, it's definitely looking to bolt snap bolt for the win. I already own jund, junk, shadow decks, burn so me buying into another fair deck seems like a bad idea, it looks fun and I'd love to try it though
Also--Grixis shadow is definitely as interactive, if not more than Splinter Twin ever was. Gkourou was correct, a nice chunk of the time you just jammed the combo, especially game 1 because your opponent refused to interact
That rarely ever happens with grixis, at it's best it can discard and force unprofitable blocks until it wins, thats when its the least interactive
That's okay though. While I can enjoy local and moderate competitive success with anything in Modern thanks to Wizards' laudable management of the format, I'm not entitled to have my very specific deck preference be a top-tier option with few bad matchups, and neither is anyone else. Of course such decks will emerge naturally, but as a result of circumstance, not of artificial format grooming to appeal to one subset of players. One of the reasons the TDF upsets so many users here is their entitlement---why should they have their very specific deck be Tier 1 when I have to play a rogue deck to get what I need out of Modern? Just because their deck was Tier 1 before? For the record, Delver was indeed a Tier 1 Modern deck prior to RTR, albeit in a more midrange configuration than I like.)
Once the other Twin players come to grips with the fact that they don't somehow deserve to have their preferences exemplified in top-tier form, we'll be able to move on as a... well, as a thread, and talk more productively about Modern's actual shortcomings. We can only hope they follow in your footsteps!
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
There are powerful decks.
There are counter spell decks.
There are bolt decks.
There are unfair decks.
Twin was all of those things at various times, even within the same game let alone match! Nothing else was like that, but you touch on a great thing. Right now, with how the format stands, you can play Tier 3 decks, and still have success. Maybe Kiki was slow before, well its a bit slower meta now, thats not the worst thing you could be doing.
I think a few of us are not about 'entitlement' of our deck or strats being Tier 1, its more about having that feeling still exist, somewhere. Granted hellfire is about that archetype diversity, but thats not a Twin issue.
Either way, I'm happy for now.
Its not at all the same. Sure if you get to drop one or the other you have a chance at an win at sorcery speed, but it doesnt have the same feel at all. its hard enough to articulate, it took me a long time to get to grips with why I feel the way I do as it is. :]
I'm a little softer on the deck than Spsiegel (and you are wrong on Spreading Sea's I think Spsiegel, its a house right now especially if you can flicker it for value and to lock out a different land) but its not how I want to play. Queller is closer but Kiki-Resto is the goods for me right now. :]
Spirits
This just isn't the same modern as those days. And Imo they where better.
They had Thier problems of course, but at least a room full of poeple at fnms had more;jund, uwr control, Twin and pod. With a healthy dose of affinity tron and boggles ect #linear
There felt to be a balance between linear and/or solitaire and grindy interactive games. And I miss that.
Where as nowadays both online and on fnm its leaned more towards the linear spectrum. And although there are still some non linear interactive and grindy decks around. That number is certainly less than it used to be.
And I know that certain decks in the top tiers currently are the culprits of this.
But poeple just seem to be loving it on this forum so there's that..
decks playing:
none
Link?
Spirits
Basically swap 2x Liliana of the Veil, 1x Kolaghan's Command, 2x Terminate, 1x Fatal Push for 3x Lingering Souls and 3x Path to Exile. Plus a handful of lands.
UBx Shadow?
I've seen Esper Shadow, BW Shadow, Mardu Shadow, and of course the Jund/Grixis, its literally in any black deck I've seen online.
Spirits
It was never about entitlement, but about the dissatisfaction for a decision that was wrong at the time and remains wrong to this day.
I've made peace with it as well (in case you missed the massive post on the previous page), by simply moving away from competitive Modern for the time being. But it seems so many of the people who hate talking about Twin still want to talk about Twin. Carry on.
The land base alone already accounts for a massive "difference" in card names: (4 Marsh, 4 Strand, 2 Fountain, 1 Shrine). That's 11 different cards, before getting to the only main deck differences of -Terminate -K Command +Path +Lingering Souls. That's a 17-card difference!! Way more than the necessary 10-card difference they stated in the announcement.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
EDIT: New thread is live. I understand there will be a lot of questions, and I've done my best to explain them there. You can find the new thread here. Please understand that these decisions are temporary, and I will unlock this thread after two months.