If Death's Shadow can be considered for banning because of diversity, than what about Tarmogoyf which sees play in more decks and forces less deck building restrictions ?
Tarmogoyf sees play in 3 decks from the top 40 decks in Modern. Right now, half of the Tarmogoyfs in Modern online are played in DS.
Tarmogoyf is the bad creature in DS. Let that sink in. It plays them because it has to play some more creatures and Tarmogoyf is the next best thing. For all intents and purposes, clear for anyone with a decent experience vs DS, Tarmogoyf is a straight worse creature that costs twice as much.
Jund and Junk are going the way of the dodo, they are no longer tier 1. And then, the literal only place Tarmogoyf will have in Modern is being the low-quality sidekick of Death's Shadow.
"Jund and Junk are going the way of the dodo, they are no longer tier 1"
this, a sign of lack of health in the format. people, its happening, let that sink in.
first it could be argued that with the lack of blue in tier 1 the game is fine because we have bgx! but now we dont......
Shadow is GBx, just a bit more aggressive version.
Purkle, you're still ignoring that it has other decks now adapting and slotting in shadow for similar purposes of Jund. WOTC will now allow this to happen if we saw these decks eating the meta shares. It still needs more tournament results, but if it hits another top 8 I think it'll officially be on notice. It's still early for a nan, but I think soon it'll be in the making.
just because it doesn't win by turn 3 doesn't make it am issue. DRS wasn't winning games by turn 3, it still oppressed the format. DRS was very interactiven, so what's your point? It really is a legacy deck in a modern format.
And before someone says unban bbe to help regular jund, read Sam blacks thoughts on that. He literally talks himself put of that idea while writing the article, noting how disgusting death shadow would be playing it in the sideboard and keeping to it's own colors.
It's still early, but...its not looking good, the deck struggles against heavy removal stuff but it seems more powerful than infect ever was in modern for most of its life.
I also think jund only having a above 50/50 is really bad, why on earth wouldn't I take the -5 hedge to beat all it's other bad matchups?
I'm worried how unopposed big decks will be it it's banned, we have no true good land destruction or true counters. This will definitely bring me back to the twin unban argument if it receives a well deserved ban
And before someone says unban bbe to help regular jund, read Sam blacks thoughts on that. He literally talks himself put of that idea while writing the article, noting how disgusting death shadow would be playing it in the sideboard and keeping to it's own colors.
Got a link to that article? Because I really don't see why DSJ would play BBE, a 4 mana card that can flip underwhelming stuff like Bauble or 1 of their 8 discard spells (which are usually pretty bad when you get to the point of casting BBE). 4 mana is a lot for that deck and splashing white for Ranger of Eos seems just better than BBE in most cases.
I said this a couple of weeks ago and many folks here crushed me when i said that Death's Shadow had resemblance with Splinter Twin in diversity matters. Right now instead of playing Grixis Delver i'm playing Grixis Shadow, my brother instead of playing Abzan he is playing Abzan Shadow, same with Jund and Esper players?. I mean, right now it's the pivotal point(closer to Amonkhet i believe) where the meta decides whether it's gobbled up by DS or some deck completetly crushes it or an unban or reprint gives us a reason to play classic control and midrange builds instead of the DS package.
I think calling it for a ban right now seems short-sighted since in a couple of weeks there will be a B&R announcement(which i believe they will unban something) and Amonkhet later on, mostly sure will bring an answer with the power level of recently printed creatures.
I think(and hope) that the meta will sort itself via unbans/reprints/next level building and we can have DS in Modern to be viable along every other strategy.
Just splash black and play 6 Fatal Pushes. No one will know unless they cast surgical extraction against you. There, you solved your DS problem.
On a more serious note, I find EE does a good job against shadow. Vapor Snag also combats it. Cryptic taps them all out. There are plenty angles of attack.
Just splash black and play 6 Fatal Pushes. No one will know unless they cast surgical extraction against you. There, you solved your DS problem.
On a more serious note, I find EE does a good job against shadow. Vapor Snag also combats it. Cryptic taps them all out. There are plenty angles of attack.
there are good answers true, but in time we will see if they suffice.
I said this a couple of weeks ago and many folks here crushed me when i said that Death's Shadow had resemblance with Splinter Twin in diversity matters. Right now instead of playing Grixis Delver i'm playing Grixis Shadow, my brother instead of playing Abzan he is playing Abzan Shadow, same with Jund and Esper players?. I mean, right now it's the pivotal point(closer to Amonkhet i believe) where the meta decides whether it's gobbled up by DS or some deck completetly crushes it or an unban or reprint gives us a reason to play classic control and midrange builds instead of the DS package.
I think calling it for a ban right now seems short-sighted since in a couple of weeks there will be a B&R announcement(which i believe they will unban something) and Amonkhet later on, mostly sure will bring an answer with the power level of recently printed creatures.
I think(and hope) that the meta will sort itself via unbans/reprints/next level building and we can have DS in Modern to be viable along every other strategy.
No common or logical person is demanding a ban right now, I still believe it needs to keep posting results and play out
I'm simply suggesting that I think it's going the way of needing a ban
If the meta's response is simply to adapt Shadows of your own to stay competitive, there's a huge issue, it may even be as big of a deal as Dredge warping the meta to a sideboard lottery and kicking out graveyard decks in a competitive environment.
Just so anyone knows, I am playing Shadow myself, I did foil out some of the pieces, and I'm definitely not defending the deck, just in case. If something is too good or broken, I'll call it out, despite if it hurts me, I think every player should care about the format as a whole and not just their investment of money and time into a deck/archetype.
Let's see what the next few tournaments look like, Grixis shadow/Esper shadow are still unproven outside of MTGO
And before someone says unban bbe to help regular jund, read Sam blacks thoughts on that. He literally talks himself put of that idea while writing the article, noting how disgusting death shadow would be playing it in the sideboard and keeping to it's own colors.
Got a link to that article? Because I really don't see why DSJ would play BBE, a 4 mana card that can flip underwhelming stuff like Bauble or 1 of their 8 discard spells (which are usually pretty bad when you get to the point of casting BBE). 4 mana is a lot for that deck and splashing white for Ranger of Eos seems just better than BBE in most cases.
Assuming BBE is being used in the board, you would likely take out most if not all of the discard. Bauble isn't exactly a poor flip off an elf, as you're still up an additional card. This is not at all mentioning how powerful skipping over a bunch of dead land draws can be.
You're also forgetting how stupid and ridiculous an 8/8 Death Shadow, a 7/8 Goyf, a traverse, any variation of lilly, or a K-Command would be. BBE in the sideboard would be utterly broken in Death shadow for grindy games
The link I mentioned is a Starcity premium link, it was written a few weeks ago by Sam Black. If you have the subscription it'll be easy for you to find on your own, if you don't have it, I can't quote it or post here because that violates the TOS.
Just bannning traverse the ulvenwald and street wraith would bring the deck down a notch and would allow to see if it's enough for it to be good but not dominating.
Traverse allows them to find their next threat too easily. Wraith is a zero-mana permanent pump (for both shadow and marginally goyf) that doesn't cost a card.
Just bannning traverse the ulvenwald and street wraith would bring the deck down a notch and would allow to see if it's enough for it to be good but not dominating.
Traverse allows them to find their next threat too easily. Wraith is a zero-mana permanent pump (for both shadow and marginally goyf) that doesn't cost a card.
The complaint I hear is that Death's Shadow itself just slots into everything. Jund Death's Shadow uses Traverse and Wraith, but Grixis and Esper don't. Abzan and Sultai do, but again, the common thread here is DS slotting into everything.
The question remains: to what extent is the current DS uptick a reflection of hype or a reflection of power? What's the equilibrium point?
Just bannning traverse the ulvenwald and street wraith would bring the deck down a notch and would allow to see if it's enough for it to be good but not dominating.
Traverse allows them to find their next threat too easily. Wraith is a zero-mana permanent pump (for both shadow and marginally goyf) that doesn't cost a card.
The complaint I hear is that Death's Shadow itself just slots into everything. Jund Death's Shadow uses Traverse and Wraith, but Grixis and Esper don't. Abzan and Sultai do, but again, the common thread here is DS slotting into everything.
The question remains: to what extent is the current DS uptick a reflection of hype or a reflection of power? What's the equilibrium point?
Death's shadow is just the best and most hyper efficient thing to be doing in modern. Just like twin was the best and most proactive thing to be doing in blue in modern pre-ban. It really comes down to how well Uxx control (most likely UW and Esper) can fend off the rest of the field along with having a good death shadow match up.
The one and only culprit would be the DS itself. In my honest opinion if we need to ban DS it says more about the format than the card itself.
This, many times over. If a one mana beatdown-only creature is in serious contention for banning, something is decidedly off in the format.
I personally feel like it's the lack of both fast combo and good control.
DS obliterates fast combo. Those decks are absolutely not checks on DS strategies.
That said, control would be a check. DS decks, even the newer ones, struggle with concentrated removal and card advantage. A DS ban would underscore Modern's lack of viable controlling options. It would also underscore Wizards' absurd failure to print strong answers for years in a Standard format plagued by threats and battlecruiser Magic design.
DS is really only an issue because those decks run heavy discard. So your answers are stripped from your hand by the time they resolve DS. DS by itself dies to a lot of removal. Discard is often labeled as card disadvantage, but it really isnt. Im losing one card in return for you losing your current best card in hand + I know what else you have and I can guess your game plan.
That being said, Im currently 50/50 against DS decks, which is fine by me.
DS is really only an issue because those decks run heavy discard. So your answers are stripped from your hand by the time they resolve DS. DS by itself dies to a lot of removal. Discard is often labeled as card disadvantage, but it really isnt. Im losing one card in return for you losing your current best card in hand + I know what else you have and I can guess your game plan.
That being said, Im currently 50/50 against DS decks, which is fine by me.
That's true. At the same time those decks are threat light and built with pretty much no CA. If you build a deck with some serious amount of Removal/Counters and CA like Esper Charm/Ancestral Vision/anything actually good, there's no way they can outgrind you.
Yep, true. If you can do it, quickly. Because DS wants to resolve asap. Of course, if the only way to beat DS is to play a very specific archetype, you will see a DS ban. lol
It's most likely the way it's going and what will happen, I can't really defend it if so many decks feel obligated to slot it in.
It won't fix the format, we're going to have a multitude of new issues once that ban takes place, Brisbane GP showed where the meta was heading.
It's too bad really, because DS could be a good regulating force in Modern to reduce unfair deck shares. Especially ramp. Unfortunately, we can all envision a scenario where players forget their previous hate for ramp/combo and shift it to DS, and Wizards shortsightedly bans something because they perceive it as a diversity reducer. If DS went into Sultai, Grixis, and Jund decks but made all those strategies more viable, I'm personally comfortable with that. I'm even more comfortable with it if it increases format interactivity and allows unbans. But again, we can all see the scenario where players and Wizards gets upset with this and move towards a ban. It would be Twin all over again.
We have to give the meta game time to adjust still. Death Shadow is clearly the most dominant deck in the format and probably the best. But what it is doing isn't exactly unique or impossible to interact with. It's playing undercosted beaters and disruption. What the meta will do is shift from big mana decks like Tron which had a good matchup with jund and a bad match up with Jund Shadow with more decks like Esper control which have a good matchup against Shadow and had a bad match up against Tron. This is exactly the kind of thing all the Uxx reactive mages have been asking for. A metagame that is shifting into a format that is more favorable to them. Just look at the last week of 5-0 lists on MODO. Pretty much everyday at least one control list is on there.
I'll also add that I don't think the Twin and DS comparison is appropriate, even if I've made it myself and see where it comes from. A much more appropriate examples is Delver in Legacy. It's a staple in numerous decks that enable those strategies. Rather than reduce diversity, its presence in a variety of different strategies increases net diversity by making otherwise unplayable strategies/colors better. We'll need to see how this plays out from a metagame standpoint, but if the data supports it, I'll fully support the comparison of DS/Modern with Delver/Legacy. This would frame DS in a much more positive light but, again, it's dependent on how DS actually plays out in the numbers.
Death's shadow does seem to be taking a similar path to twin in which the deck tries to evolve to give itself better percentages in various match ups or the mirror. If that's how the format 'adapts' moving forward then that's a problem.
UR Twin spawned Grixis, Temur and Jeskai variants and DS Jund is similarly evolving into Abzan, Grixis etc. Is this sort of like a 'best deck' thing where they start to evolve to beat the mirror because the deck is just that freaking good ?
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
I'll also add that I don't think the Twin and DS comparison is appropriate, even if I've made it myself and see where it comes from. A much more appropriate examples is Delver in Legacy. It's a staple in numerous decks that enable those strategies. Rather than reduce diversity, its presence in a variety of different strategies increases net diversity by making otherwise unplayable strategies/colors better. We'll need to see how this plays out from a metagame standpoint, but if the data supports it, I'll fully support the comparison of DS/Modern with Delver/Legacy. This would frame DS in a much more positive light but, again, it's dependent on how DS actually plays out in the numbers.
I think it's also important to remember that 'forcing blue decks to play Twin' wasn't the only reason the card got banned. In the first part R&D listed numerous Pro Tour and Grand Prix wins of Twin, it was very good over a long period of time.
So let's give this deck some time.
When's the next Grand Prix or other big tournament?
I've seen Sultai Shadow, Jund Shadow, Grixis Shadow, Esper Shadow, Abzan Shadow....honestly black is the only requirement and the rest can be whatever you like.
What they all have in common are Death's Shadow, Thoughtseize + Inquisition, fetch + shock manabase. The perfect trifecta of good mana, disruption, and huge beatsticks.
I agree that control tends to be good against Death's Shadow, and big mana bad. This is definitely a good thing because big mana is control's weakness. So without any more bannings, I believe we will see a great meta take shape
It would be cool if shadow became this formats delver
It'd also make blue genuinely good against midrange
If this is what blue needs to be good I'm fine with that too
I'm curious where it goes but wotc may panic and ban it. The format won't be fixed, I honestly can't see any deck left to police big mana and ramp, and no, revolt zoo will not be the deck that fixes the format
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u know what i mean......
decks playing:
none
just because it doesn't win by turn 3 doesn't make it am issue. DRS wasn't winning games by turn 3, it still oppressed the format. DRS was very interactiven, so what's your point? It really is a legacy deck in a modern format.
And before someone says unban bbe to help regular jund, read Sam blacks thoughts on that. He literally talks himself put of that idea while writing the article, noting how disgusting death shadow would be playing it in the sideboard and keeping to it's own colors.
It's still early, but...its not looking good, the deck struggles against heavy removal stuff but it seems more powerful than infect ever was in modern for most of its life.
I also think jund only having a above 50/50 is really bad, why on earth wouldn't I take the -5 hedge to beat all it's other bad matchups?
I'm worried how unopposed big decks will be it it's banned, we have no true good land destruction or true counters. This will definitely bring me back to the twin unban argument if it receives a well deserved ban
Got a link to that article? Because I really don't see why DSJ would play BBE, a 4 mana card that can flip underwhelming stuff like Bauble or 1 of their 8 discard spells (which are usually pretty bad when you get to the point of casting BBE). 4 mana is a lot for that deck and splashing white for Ranger of Eos seems just better than BBE in most cases.
I think calling it for a ban right now seems short-sighted since in a couple of weeks there will be a B&R announcement(which i believe they will unban something) and Amonkhet later on, mostly sure will bring an answer with the power level of recently printed creatures.
I think(and hope) that the meta will sort itself via unbans/reprints/next level building and we can have DS in Modern to be viable along every other strategy.
On a more serious note, I find EE does a good job against shadow. Vapor Snag also combats it. Cryptic taps them all out. There are plenty angles of attack.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
there are good answers true, but in time we will see if they suffice.
decks playing:
none
No common or logical person is demanding a ban right now, I still believe it needs to keep posting results and play out
I'm simply suggesting that I think it's going the way of needing a ban
If the meta's response is simply to adapt Shadows of your own to stay competitive, there's a huge issue, it may even be as big of a deal as Dredge warping the meta to a sideboard lottery and kicking out graveyard decks in a competitive environment.
Just so anyone knows, I am playing Shadow myself, I did foil out some of the pieces, and I'm definitely not defending the deck, just in case. If something is too good or broken, I'll call it out, despite if it hurts me, I think every player should care about the format as a whole and not just their investment of money and time into a deck/archetype.
Let's see what the next few tournaments look like, Grixis shadow/Esper shadow are still unproven outside of MTGO
Assuming BBE is being used in the board, you would likely take out most if not all of the discard. Bauble isn't exactly a poor flip off an elf, as you're still up an additional card. This is not at all mentioning how powerful skipping over a bunch of dead land draws can be.
The link I mentioned is a Starcity premium link, it was written a few weeks ago by Sam Black. If you have the subscription it'll be easy for you to find on your own, if you don't have it, I can't quote it or post here because that violates the TOS.
Traverse allows them to find their next threat too easily. Wraith is a zero-mana permanent pump (for both shadow and marginally goyf) that doesn't cost a card.
The complaint I hear is that Death's Shadow itself just slots into everything. Jund Death's Shadow uses Traverse and Wraith, but Grixis and Esper don't. Abzan and Sultai do, but again, the common thread here is DS slotting into everything.
The question remains: to what extent is the current DS uptick a reflection of hype or a reflection of power? What's the equilibrium point?
Death's shadow is just the best and most hyper efficient thing to be doing in modern. Just like twin was the best and most proactive thing to be doing in blue in modern pre-ban. It really comes down to how well Uxx control (most likely UW and Esper) can fend off the rest of the field along with having a good death shadow match up.
We'll find out over the next few weeks hopefully.
This, many times over. If a one mana beatdown-only creature is in serious contention for banning, something is decidedly off in the format.
I personally feel like it's the lack of both fast combo and good control.
DS obliterates fast combo. Those decks are absolutely not checks on DS strategies.
That said, control would be a check. DS decks, even the newer ones, struggle with concentrated removal and card advantage. A DS ban would underscore Modern's lack of viable controlling options. It would also underscore Wizards' absurd failure to print strong answers for years in a Standard format plagued by threats and battlecruiser Magic design.
That being said, Im currently 50/50 against DS decks, which is fine by me.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Yep, true. If you can do it, quickly. Because DS wants to resolve asap. Of course, if the only way to beat DS is to play a very specific archetype, you will see a DS ban. lol
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
It won't fix the format, we're going to have a multitude of new issues once that ban takes place, Brisbane GP showed where the meta was heading.
It's too bad really, because DS could be a good regulating force in Modern to reduce unfair deck shares. Especially ramp. Unfortunately, we can all envision a scenario where players forget their previous hate for ramp/combo and shift it to DS, and Wizards shortsightedly bans something because they perceive it as a diversity reducer. If DS went into Sultai, Grixis, and Jund decks but made all those strategies more viable, I'm personally comfortable with that. I'm even more comfortable with it if it increases format interactivity and allows unbans. But again, we can all see the scenario where players and Wizards gets upset with this and move towards a ban. It would be Twin all over again.
UR Twin spawned Grixis, Temur and Jeskai variants and DS Jund is similarly evolving into Abzan, Grixis etc. Is this sort of like a 'best deck' thing where they start to evolve to beat the mirror because the deck is just that freaking good ?
I think it's also important to remember that 'forcing blue decks to play Twin' wasn't the only reason the card got banned. In the first part R&D listed numerous Pro Tour and Grand Prix wins of Twin, it was very good over a long period of time.
So let's give this deck some time.
When's the next Grand Prix or other big tournament?
What they all have in common are Death's Shadow, Thoughtseize + Inquisition, fetch + shock manabase. The perfect trifecta of good mana, disruption, and huge beatsticks.
I agree that control tends to be good against Death's Shadow, and big mana bad. This is definitely a good thing because big mana is control's weakness. So without any more bannings, I believe we will see a great meta take shape
It'd also make blue genuinely good against midrange
If this is what blue needs to be good I'm fine with that too
I'm curious where it goes but wotc may panic and ban it. The format won't be fixed, I honestly can't see any deck left to police big mana and ramp, and no, revolt zoo will not be the deck that fixes the format