ok so 2x green, though I have 4x bloodstained and 4x wooded with 2x Mesa's. my other mesa's are in my Zoo. thanks for you list. though I dont have tarns
This is my current list. Am I missing anything by not running Lightning Helix? I'm not sure if its worth it. Figure I would cut a shard volley and skullcrack:
I suggest adding Patrick Sullivan's article Burn vs Counters in the primer.
I'm sure we all have asked wondered about this at one point or the other when going up against those pesky blue mages...
Absolutely. I linked this one in another post, along with several other articles. I don't know why Arkaedrian ignored them.
I will be adding all those articles today! I will however exclude some of the ones from 2014 (still have to read them all) as they are getting dated (almost 2016 already!!)
I suggest adding Patrick Sullivan's article Burn vs Counters in the primer.
I'm sure we all have asked wondered about this at one point or the other when going up against those pesky blue mages...
Absolutely. I linked this one in another post, along with several other articles. I don't know why Arkaedrian ignored them.
I will be adding all those articles today! I will however exclude some of the ones from 2014 (still have to read them all) as they are getting dated (almost 2016 already!!)
Being from 2014 doesn't necessarily mean it's dated. Discussing strategy is discussing strategy. There's really nothing more profound in an article that knows about Atarka's Command compared to one that doesn't. It doesn't have to be an article from last week to be relevant. All of the Ferguson ones on The Meadery are from 2014, and most of those are about Legacy, but they're worth reading. They're definitely more valuable to read than one player's tournament report from August 2015.
You can definitely try to go 4 color but if your meta is aggro heavy you're going to have a very difficult time. Also, on 20 lands there's a good chance you'll only have 2 fetches and not be able to fetch for your 4th color.
If you wanted to try it I would suggest the following mana base:
I don't like Clifftop Retreat as 1 in hand with a basic mountain means you have no access to green. There's a good chance your opening hands will be weird or you're not able to fetch for your 4th color. Burn is a deck that relies on consistency and by splashing a 4th color you're not really gaining much power and losing a lot of consistency. Then again, if you're only playing local FNM events it's worth a shot but I wouldn't try it at a competitive event.
Any build should have at least 2 basic mountains so you can fetch them out and take less damage, or grab one if your creatures get Path'ed.
Hope this helps!
Many thanks; this is indeed very helpful! Is there any particular advantage to running one fetch over another, so long as it can grab a red source? I liked the idea of running Scalding Tard in order to **** with the opponent, so I've been using your suggested mana base except with Tarns over Mires. Also, are there any lists (Mardu, Naya, or otherwise) that runs Temple Garden as a 1-of? It seems like it could be useful in the event that we have a weird opening hand with only red mana/fetch and multiple non-red spells.
Short of miracle draws and the opponent misplaying, is there any real way burn plays against soul sisters?
i don't like scooping to it immediately, but i also think that's less demoralizing than actually playing the game
Leyline of Punishment in the board is a good bet. Hitting your skullcrack effects on time helps too. If you crack in responce to Martyr you timewalked them. Other than that, pray.
Short of miracle draws and the opponent misplaying, is there any real way burn plays against soul sisters?
i don't like scooping to it immediately, but i also think that's less demoralizing than actually playing the game
Leyline of Punishment in the board is a good bet. Hitting your skullcrack effects on time helps too. If you crack in responce to Martyr you timewalked them. Other than that, pray.
How many leyline would you run in the board? Obviously, we want to have it in our opening hand, but the 4 cmc makes it so that I'd be hesitant to run 4. On the other hand, the chances of having one to start the game drop with every less copy.
Unless Soul sisters is oppressive in your meta, I wouldn't even bother with the Leyline. As I mentioned in the Primer; Leyline takes up a lot of precious SB slots and still doesn't guarantee you'll have it in the opener. Not to mention drawing a second one is just horrible and mulling to get it can be just as bad.
Volcanic fallout is surprisingly good at killing all their 1-2 drops if you hit it on Turn 3 and getting a timely Command/Skullcrack can sometimes be enough to get the win. In general though Soul sisters is by far our worst matchup, but it's not very popular so you can always rely on dodging it.
Generally if you want a card in your opener but not two of them the number to run is 3. Here's the breakdown. It's not mine I saw it years ago so if anyone recognizes it and can link that would be great.
1 copy: Doesn't matter if we see it every game or we have the ability to search for it. This is our Shard Volley. Good as a finisher as it is a bolt but bad as an opener for its drawback.
2 copies: Generally want to see one every game but multiples are unnecessary. This is grim lavamancer. You usually want to see him but two in hand is a waste as it eats through your graveyard fast.
3 copies: Definitely wants to see play. Want it in the opening hand most games. This is where I would put leyline. That said, leyline is a meta call and not good in every sideboard. If soul sisters or some other life gain deck is prevalent in the meta run them.
4 copies: You want it every game, in the opening hand and you want to draw multiple; Lightning bolt, lavaspike, boros charm...
So I would put 3 in if you know you're facing Soul Sisters. This is one of the games where you need to play control and dropping leyline from your opener is as bad for them as seeing the white leyline for us. Unless they kill your leyline, all of their dudes are 1/1. That said, expect them to expect you to side in leyline. Don't expect it to shut them out and they scoop because they probably sided in some amount of enchantment hate. Get it into play and then give it the gas as fast as you can because the enchantment removal is coming.
I had some practice matches with Soul Sisters with a friend of mine (including sideboarded games). Out of 10 games, I managed to win 4 of them. I agree that the correct number for Leyline of Punishment in the side is 3. In all of those 4 matches, 3 are won because of the leyline while the other 1 is through proper timing of skullcrack effects.
Leyline of Punishment is indeed a great SB card against it, the same way they bring Leyline of Sanctity against us. However, Soul Sisters isn't that popular, so the leyline slots eats up lots of space. If it is heavy on the meta, then we would really need it, otherwise just sequence properly with the crack effects.
On a side note, my friend told me that being a Soul Sisters player, he wouldn't normally bring in enchantment hate against burn since he won't expect leylines from us, being knowledgeable what a typical Burn list contain nowadays - and leyline isn't one of them. He would, however if it becomes a thing.
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How do you properly deal playing against creatureless control decks? Seems like it blanks or weakens a lot of cards like Searing Blaze and most of your sideboard.
There aren't many/any creatureless control decks.
And Searing Blaze (if it's blanked) just gets sided out for other cards - what sideboard cards are creature only in most burn decks?
How do you properly deal playing against creatureless control decks? Seems like it blanks or weakens a lot of cards like Searing Blaze and most of your sideboard.
The only Creatureless control deck that is relevant is probably lantern control. In that case, you take out blazes and any card you don't want for artifact hate out of the board like revelry or smash.
Great primer update! Thanks.
There are also some possible sideboard choices currently not covered there. Shattering Spree is an anti-artifact hate that scales (helps vs Affinity) and can completely avoid Chalice of the Void as copies aren't cast, but simply put to stack. Anger of the Gods is an alternative sweeper option if you expect to encounter Zoo decks or smth silimar with 3 toughness.
I also personally like Torpor Orb as a 1-of sideboard option. It's very versatile - for example, shuts down Spliter Twin Combo or Soul Sisters lifegain.
I'm having lots of trouble against Splinter Twin variants recently especially after sideboarding. I'm running 3x Path to Exile, 2x Rending Volley and 3x Destructive Revelry out of the sideboard and still gets outgrinded games 2 and 3. I'm planning on playing 2x Choke out of the sideboard to improve this specific match-up. Thoughts?
How do you properly deal playing against creatureless control decks? Seems like it blanks or weakens a lot of cards like Searing Blaze and most of your sideboard.
The only Creatureless control deck that is relevant is probably lantern control. In that case, you take out blazes and any card you don't want for artifact hate out of the board like revelry or smash.
Fair point, would you bring in Volanic Fallout against very hard control decks? I know 3 mana for two damage is pretty bad, but can't be countered can help squeeze out last points of damage.
How do you properly deal playing against creatureless control decks? Seems like it blanks or weakens a lot of cards like Searing Blaze and most of your sideboard.
The only Creatureless control deck that is relevant is probably lantern control. In that case, you take out blazes and any card you don't want for artifact hate out of the board like revelry or smash.
Fair point, would you bring in Volanic Fallout against very hard control decks? I know 3 mana for two damage is pretty bad, but can't be countered can help squeeze out last points of damage.
Definitely not. The way you beat counters is by bottlenecking them. You accumulate instants and dump them at the end of their turn and follow up with sorceries the next turn. You have more burn than they have counters. Read this, which is on the primer main page. You're letting them win if you play a spell-counter-go every turn.
I'm having lots of trouble against Splinter Twin variants recently especially after sideboarding. I'm running 3x Path to Exile, 2x Rending Volley and 3x Destructive Revelry out of the sideboard and still gets outgrinded games 2 and 3. I'm planning on playing 2x Choke out of the sideboard to improve this specific match-up. Thoughts?
It may be wrong to bring in Destructive Rev. You lose a lot of Burn spells when sideboarding that many cards. I would bring in only Path and Rending Volley. Play your burn spells on their EOT to bottle neck their mana, and as always, never tap out against them unless It's turns 1-2.
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
3 Sacred Foundry
Creature
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
3 searing Blaze
4 Boros Charm
4 Atarka's Command
2 Skullcrack
1 Shard Volley
Sorcery
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Deflecting Palm
2 Path To Exile
3 Kor Firewalker
1 Searing Blaze
1 Skullcrack
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Rending Volley
I will be adding all those articles today! I will however exclude some of the ones from 2014 (still have to read them all) as they are getting dated (almost 2016 already!!)
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
Being from 2014 doesn't necessarily mean it's dated. Discussing strategy is discussing strategy. There's really nothing more profound in an article that knows about Atarka's Command compared to one that doesn't. It doesn't have to be an article from last week to be relevant. All of the Ferguson ones on The Meadery are from 2014, and most of those are about Legacy, but they're worth reading. They're definitely more valuable to read than one player's tournament report from August 2015.
Thanks for the feedback everyone!
Edit: Articles section updated!
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
Many thanks; this is indeed very helpful! Is there any particular advantage to running one fetch over another, so long as it can grab a red source? I liked the idea of running Scalding Tard in order to **** with the opponent, so I've been using your suggested mana base except with Tarns over Mires. Also, are there any lists (Mardu, Naya, or otherwise) that runs Temple Garden as a 1-of? It seems like it could be useful in the event that we have a weird opening hand with only red mana/fetch and multiple non-red spells.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
i don't like scooping to it immediately, but i also think that's less demoralizing than actually playing the game
Leyline of Punishment in the board is a good bet. Hitting your skullcrack effects on time helps too. If you crack in responce to Martyr you timewalked them. Other than that, pray.
How many leyline would you run in the board? Obviously, we want to have it in our opening hand, but the 4 cmc makes it so that I'd be hesitant to run 4. On the other hand, the chances of having one to start the game drop with every less copy.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Volcanic fallout is surprisingly good at killing all their 1-2 drops if you hit it on Turn 3 and getting a timely Command/Skullcrack can sometimes be enough to get the win. In general though Soul sisters is by far our worst matchup, but it's not very popular so you can always rely on dodging it.
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
1 copy: Doesn't matter if we see it every game or we have the ability to search for it. This is our Shard Volley. Good as a finisher as it is a bolt but bad as an opener for its drawback.
2 copies: Generally want to see one every game but multiples are unnecessary. This is grim lavamancer. You usually want to see him but two in hand is a waste as it eats through your graveyard fast.
3 copies: Definitely wants to see play. Want it in the opening hand most games. This is where I would put leyline. That said, leyline is a meta call and not good in every sideboard. If soul sisters or some other life gain deck is prevalent in the meta run them.
4 copies: You want it every game, in the opening hand and you want to draw multiple; Lightning bolt, lavaspike, boros charm...
So I would put 3 in if you know you're facing Soul Sisters. This is one of the games where you need to play control and dropping leyline from your opener is as bad for them as seeing the white leyline for us. Unless they kill your leyline, all of their dudes are 1/1. That said, expect them to expect you to side in leyline. Don't expect it to shut them out and they scoop because they probably sided in some amount of enchantment hate. Get it into play and then give it the gas as fast as you can because the enchantment removal is coming.
Leyline of Punishment is indeed a great SB card against it, the same way they bring Leyline of Sanctity against us. However, Soul Sisters isn't that popular, so the leyline slots eats up lots of space. If it is heavy on the meta, then we would really need it, otherwise just sequence properly with the crack effects.
On a side note, my friend told me that being a Soul Sisters player, he wouldn't normally bring in enchantment hate against burn since he won't expect leylines from us, being knowledgeable what a typical Burn list contain nowadays - and leyline isn't one of them. He would, however if it becomes a thing.
And Searing Blaze (if it's blanked) just gets sided out for other cards - what sideboard cards are creature only in most burn decks?
The only Creatureless control deck that is relevant is probably lantern control. In that case, you take out blazes and any card you don't want for artifact hate out of the board like revelry or smash.
There are also some possible sideboard choices currently not covered there.
Shattering Spree is an anti-artifact hate that scales (helps vs Affinity) and can completely avoid Chalice of the Void as copies aren't cast, but simply put to stack.
Anger of the Gods is an alternative sweeper option if you expect to encounter Zoo decks or smth silimar with 3 toughness.
I also personally like Torpor Orb as a 1-of sideboard option. It's very versatile - for example, shuts down Spliter Twin Combo or Soul Sisters lifegain.
Fair point, would you bring in Volanic Fallout against very hard control decks? I know 3 mana for two damage is pretty bad, but can't be countered can help squeeze out last points of damage.
Definitely not. The way you beat counters is by bottlenecking them. You accumulate instants and dump them at the end of their turn and follow up with sorceries the next turn. You have more burn than they have counters. Read this, which is on the primer main page. You're letting them win if you play a spell-counter-go every turn.
It may be wrong to bring in Destructive Rev. You lose a lot of Burn spells when sideboarding that many cards. I would bring in only Path and Rending Volley. Play your burn spells on their EOT to bottle neck their mana, and as always, never tap out against them unless It's turns 1-2.
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company