I saw your list on mtgoldfish. I heavily disagree with chalice on the side. Todd Stevens wrote about it last week, but he didn't even play Eldrazi Tron.
Let's be honest, if chalice weren't in this deck, the deck would float somewhere between tier 2 and tier 3, I think it's a huge mistake not maining this card.
Last week I ran 2 warping wails in place of mindstone, and it went very well.
I also ran a maindeck wurmcoil
I see ulamog, and I'm so incredibly unimpressed by the card in the deck.
Titubu I'm with you on Chalice vs. Affinity. I've played a ton of games against it both knowing and not knowing what deck I'm up against. Chalice on zero on the play against a known deck is a no-brainer when it happens. Slowing them is a key. Chalice on two shuts down my most hated card Cranial Plating. If that card drops we are going to lose 9 out of 10 times. It also shuts down Ravager which is my 2nd most hated card in Affinity. I've played enough games dropping a Chalice on 2, when behind, that has bought me that extra turn to bring out a bomb (Karn, AiD, O-Stone or Ulamog). I will take any advantage I can get versus that deck.
I think a constructive discussion on how to prepare/play/sideboard against Affinity (and Storm) should be in order as they seem to be 2 of the big 3 (including us) at the moment.
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Has Sorcerous Spyglass been brought up as potential Affinity tech? It’s maindeckable because of the Peek effect, and it will shut down decks like Counters Company as a bonus.
I saw your list on mtgoldfish. I heavily disagree with chalice on the side. Todd Stevens wrote about it last week, but he didn't even play Eldrazi Tron.
Let's be honest, if chalice weren't in this deck, the deck would float somewhere between tier 2 and tier 3, I think it's a huge mistake not maining this card.
You use a lot of hyperbole. Do you have any good arguments for your position?
It doesn't really matter. I think it's well established there are pros and cons to each strategy (main vs side). People forget that Chalice side was standard for this deck for the first several months of its existence, and the move to the main raised a lot of eyebrows. Ultimately it's not a big difference, and to say that it's a "huge mistake" to not play them in the main is just nonsense.
Has Sorcerous Spyglass been brought up as potential Affinity tech? It’s maindeckable because of the Peek effect, and it will shut down decks like Counters Company as a bonus.
Sounds reasonable to me. Will have to try it over Pithing Needle and see how it rolls.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
This deck received little attention and controversial feelings until it saw results with chalice and ballista
I also don't think it's a coincidence that Dan musser popularised the lack of mindstone and moving ulamog and wurmcoil into the maindeck that the deck began to see poorer results across the board
In the dark that chalice can really determine if an ugly opener is worth keeping, Afterall, we want to be doing something broken early on. Taking that away leaves less broken things to do in the dark on game 1
This deck received little attention and controversial feelings until it saw results with chalice and ballista
I also don't think it's a coincidence that Dan musser popularised the lack of mindstone and moving ulamog and wurmcoil into the maindeck that the deck began to see poorer results across the board
In the dark that chalice can really determine if an ugly opener is worth keeping, Afterall, we want to be doing something broken early on. Taking that away leaves less broken things to do in the dark on game 1
I agree with all that you said except the Musser bit. The meta of larger tournaments always goes like this: One of the tier 1 decks dominates two tournaments in a row, so everyone packs excessive sideboard hate for the next tournaments to beat the new popular deck. One of the other tier 1 decks takes over because people cheaped out on hate and that cycle just repeats. People at all levels have seen Eldrazi Tron dominate for a stretch, so they are packing an absurd number of cards in the sideboard to beat it. Ceremonious Rejection, Stony Silence, artifact destruction, chalice removal, recurring fulminators, everyone has developed a plan for beating our deck by now. If affinity and storm dominate the elimination rounds and take a bunch of top 8 spots again this weekend or next, the hate will shift over to those decks. The difference in running Ulamog even with a Sanctum is cutting 1 non land and 1 Ghost Quarter from the deck, and not everone's doing that, and not everyone is going without Mind Stones either, so the drop in Top 8's and wins is not likely due to those things. We've just got the largest target on our back right now and I think that will change soon. I'm quite happy to be playing the deck if it's anywhere in the T1 to high T2 range, that means it can still cash out on tournaments and win FNM's.
Pretty much everyone that's tried Wail in the main deck has said it's been great, and in my opinion Mind Stone is the cut to make that happen as they conflict as T2 plays and Wail can serve as a sort of worse Mind Stone in a pinch while being significantly better against some of our worst matchups in Titanshift, Affinity, and Storm. I think that there's likely no version of the deck that is superior to another, it's perfectly fine to use no Ulamog and use Mind Stones to win through drawing more than the opponent and leaning on Enbringer, Karn, and SGW for late game. And it's also fine to depend on that line less and instead use Expedition Map, Sanctum, and Ulamog. Personally I really like having that inevitability available for when the game is either going grindy or I get absurd mana early, 'oops i win' topdecks and opening hands is where I like being with this deck (which is why I strongly agree with your points on chalice), although I had success and fun when I was using Mind Stones and drawing lots of cards as well. Everyone just needs to realize individuals will play to their style and their liking, and every modern deck has a couple slots to put spice or pet cards. It's all about perfecting your execution of your configuration of the deck, that is where success comes from.
This deck received little attention and controversial feelings until it saw results with chalice and ballista
Yes, but no one is debating that. We were debating about Chalice in main vs side, which was the source of your hyperbolic statement.
In the dark that chalice can really determine if an ugly opener is worth keeping, Afterall, we want to be doing something broken early on. Taking that away leaves less broken things to do in the dark on game 1
It can't help you decide though because the card's power is completely matchup specific. You have no idea if it will actually be good until you see what your opponent is doing.
Well, Sam Pardee put it well, you want to be doing something broken with the deck every game. A turn 2 chalice on the play is so broken.
Pardee wrote that you have to accept sometimes that broken thing isn't quite the right broken thing you needed for game 1.
I mean, let's even look at decks like jund. You'll have hands where you're stacked on spot removal when suddenly your opponent plays a combo or control deck. Likewise, you'll have a hand with jund where you're stacked with threats and light on spot removal when you're opponent plays an elf.
I believe chalice truly is that powerful worth maindecking, it's partly why we straight up win games so free that all it involved was waking up that morning and showing up
This deck would still be pretty unnoticed if not for chalice and ballista completely putting this deck on the map.
I think without the chalice you're just closer to becoming a worse green tron deck.
The arguments are getting pretty circular at this point so I'm just gonna leave it, but I'll point out that Ballista in particular put this deck on the map, not Chalice and Ballista. Chalice has been around forever and the deck was never good before Ballista.
Since Mind Stone has been brought up in the last posts: I'm yet to buy into E-Tron and I'm asking myself how important a Mind Stone is. From a distanced point of view it seems like a prerequisite to be able to cast stuff like Karn or the Wurmcoil Engine, since those aren't effected by the Temple, and E-Tron isn't that good at assembling Tron either.
I'd be grateful if someone of you can tell me a bit about his/her opinion on Mind Stone, particularly regarding stuff you miss because of Mind Stone and the casting cost of Karn.
Thanks in advance!
It's not that important.
Don't get me wrong - it's a great card, but it's firmly in the flex slot position at this point, while Karn is included no matter what.
Remember that if you're not playing Stone or Wail, the deck still has 28 mana sources (24 land, 4 map) and you'll get to 7 mana easily if the game goes long enough. Karn is positioned as a finisher and we don't need to accelerate into it because we have plenty of powerful things to do in the mid-game.
I've played tons with and without Stone and while it will help you get the big drops out faster, that doesn't necessarily matter much, when you consider what the other cards in those slots might give you. It's actually more useful for getting TKS and Smasher down early more consistently, I think.
Also, the deck gets tron more than you may think, which makes Stone less important in this context again.
Chalice is obviously a really good card, but if it was as truly amazing as some people make it out to be, it would be more prevalent in the meta. What is it used in, two decks?
Chalice is the card that is most often going to be dead itself or make something else you draw dead. It's also not an auto-win in most of the matchups where it's considered good.
I've lost plenty of times to Burn with Chalice on 1. I prefer it on 2 in the matchup, but often by the time you get to 4 lands, it's too late. And post-board, Burn will have removal (that also burns you).
I've won games against Storm with Chalice on 2, but more often than not it gets hit by Shattering Spree before they combo off. I like Relic because at least I can activate it in response to Spree. Spatial Contortion is good because it hits both Baral and Electromancer. Wail can be good if you can pull it off. Ratchet Bomb is good post-board for tokens. Cage gets Spree'd and doesn't stop tokens.
Against Affinity, Chalice feels pretty meh on the draw. Seems better as a post-board card in that matchup.
Chalice is really good against Grixis Shadow. But I feel strongly favored in that matchup with my current deck anyway. I have a 4 match win streak going against GDS. I do side in all 4.
Chalice is decent against Elves, but that matchup feels pretty miserable in spite of it.
Obviously there is nothing wrong with main decking the card, but I think bringing it in out of the side is just as valid and is more of a meta call than anything.
By moving it to the side, you open up space in your deck for more threats or answers depending on how you want to approach your meta. I'm currently testing with:
2x Conduit of Ruin
1x Ulamog
1x Wurmcoil Engine
The deck isn't doing "broken things" with Chalice early in the game, but playing Ulamog at any point is pretty broken, and this configuration is by far the easiest way to get him into play. Conduit seems pretty good; I don't tutor up Ulamog unless I can cast him. Being able to cast Smasher for 3 mana or Wurmcoil for 4 mana is pretty nice. I like this go-big, threat-heavy configuration right now.... it's a lot of fun.
By moving it to the side, you open up space in your deck for more threats or answers depending on how you want to approach your meta. I'm currently testing with:
2x Conduit of Ruin
1x Ulamog
1x Wurmcoil Engine
The deck isn't doing "broken things" with Chalice early in the game, but playing Ulamog at any point is pretty broken, and this configuration is by far the easiest way to get him into play. Conduit seems pretty good; I don't tutor up Ulamog unless I can cast him. Being able to cast Smasher for 3 mana or Wurmcoil for 4 mana is pretty nice. I like this go-big, threat-heavy configuration right now.... it's a lot of fun. Smile
Just a thought its not better than Wurmcoil but you could play around with Bane of Bala Ged in that slot and it is tutor-able via Conduit or Sanctum of Ugin if you run it and don't have the mana for Ulamog at the time. Whatever the case kudos to you for playing my favorite pet card.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
By moving it to the side, you open up space in your deck for more threats or answers depending on how you want to approach your meta. I'm currently testing with:
2x Conduit of Ruin
1x Ulamog
1x Wurmcoil Engine
The deck isn't doing "broken things" with Chalice early in the game, but playing Ulamog at any point is pretty broken, and this configuration is by far the easiest way to get him into play. Conduit seems pretty good; I don't tutor up Ulamog unless I can cast him. Being able to cast Smasher for 3 mana or Wurmcoil for 4 mana is pretty nice. I like this go-big, threat-heavy configuration right now.... it's a lot of fun. Smile
Just a thought its not better than Wurmcoil but you could play around with Bane of Bala Ged in that slot and it is tutor-able via Conduit or Sanctum of Ugin if you run it and don't have the mana for Ulamog at the time. Whatever the case kudos to you for playing my favorite pet card.
I was actually just recently doing searches for more Eldrazi in the 5-8 CMC range. I'm going to test a version of the deck with no Karn, probably no Wurmcoil - just Eldrazi and Ballista. I want to see if it feels more consistent. I hate when I'm sitting there with two Temples down, 6-7 total "Eldrazi mana", but can't cast a Karn or Wurmcoil. I may also try a 2nd Titan, maybe Butcher of Truth.
Chalice? Death card! Time for chalice running out. I dont even use it in side anymore. Noone is surprised anymore about chalice. Change your decklists bevore reality kills you
This is a silly statement...
Indeed, Chalice is a great card in Modern and the only reason there aren't more decks running it is because it's really hard to make a modern deck without having a lot of 1 and 2 cost cards in it.
It is over now...maybe in some months chalice will be back again. Card is good...but EVERY guy everywhere has now outs again and the rest laugh about it
You're getting quite extreme here, I have yet to see an Eldrazi Tron list even top 8 a major tournament with chalices in the side, let alone removed from the 75 entirely. I don't see how it's constructive to give no reasoning or evidence to support your extreme claim that 'it is over now'. If there's anyone being hyperbolic here, it's this guy.
By moving it to the side, you open up space in your deck for more threats or answers depending on how you want to approach your meta. I'm currently testing with:
2x Conduit of Ruin
1x Ulamog
1x Wurmcoil Engine
The deck isn't doing "broken things" with Chalice early in the game, but playing Ulamog at any point is pretty broken, and this configuration is by far the easiest way to get him into play. Conduit seems pretty good; I don't tutor up Ulamog unless I can cast him. Being able to cast Smasher for 3 mana or Wurmcoil for 4 mana is pretty nice. I like this go-big, threat-heavy configuration right now.... it's a lot of fun. Smile
Just a thought its not better than Wurmcoil but you could play around with Bane of Bala Ged in that slot and it is tutor-able via Conduit or Sanctum of Ugin if you run it and don't have the mana for Ulamog at the time. Whatever the case kudos to you for playing my favorite pet card.
I was actually just recently doing searches for more Eldrazi in the 5-8 CMC range. I'm going to test a version of the deck with no Karn, probably no Wurmcoil - just Eldrazi and Ballista. I want to see if it feels more consistent. I hate when I'm sitting there with two Temples down, 6-7 total "Eldrazi mana", but can't cast a Karn or Wurmcoil. I may also try a 2nd Titan, maybe Butcher of Truth.
I hear where you are coming from. Nothing is going to be better than Karn in that slot (save an Ugin or new Ulamog) and casting them can also be problematic. That magic 7 mana number off natural Tron turn 3 is what makes Karn so oppressive.
BUT…
If as you say you want to sacrifice slightly unreliable pressure and power for more consistency of casting with Temples I'd look into the following in the 6 and 7 cmc slot to run with Conduit of Ruin.
Bane of Bala Ged Applies pressure and can block/kill a big Death's Shadow but as always "dies to removal" Deceiver of Form I had fun with this one for a while. Nothing like making a couple of on board Matter Reshapers 5/5 tramplers and getting a scry 1 effect. Oblivion Sower Could be decent in certain Metas. Void Winnower This one is 9 cmc unfortunately but talk about shutting down Storm, Affinity and Burn. (If you manage to play it in time.)
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I was actually just recently doing searches for more Eldrazi in the 5-8 CMC range. I'm going to test a version of the deck with no Karn, probably no Wurmcoil - just Eldrazi and Ballista. I want to see if it feels more consistent. I hate when I'm sitting there with two Temples down, 6-7 total "Eldrazi mana", but can't cast a Karn or Wurmcoil. I may also try a 2nd Titan, maybe Butcher of Truth.
I'd like to see how that does and it makes a bit of sense. Sometimes I see E-Tron players giving themselves headaches (myself included) over whether to fetch for Temples or Tron Pieces...though Karn is pretty awesome!
Karn is great because you are guaranteed to exile 1 permanent and he has a game-ending upside if not answered. But in my experience he usually doesn't stick for a 2nd turn.
However, you raise a great point - I always tutor for Temple unless I have a clear path to Tron. And with the amount of land hate in modern, Tron can be quite hard to get or maintain in a lot of matchups.
Just watched E-Tron go to 8-1 vs 5 color Humans at 9-0 at the Cincy SCG Modern event. Adam Fronsee had to mull to 4 game 2 and it was over before it began. I'd like my 2 main board Oblivion Stone and 2 SB All is Dust and Contortions and Wails if this deck picks up like I'm sure it will after a 9-0 Day One. It also shows our weakness to flyers. We could really use a flying colorless man-land. 5c Humans seems a fast aggro style deck. We need to stall and life gain could be relevant as well. Hopefully they will get a rematch in the finals.
Could it be time to consider Smuggler's Copter or Aethersphere Harvester as a +2 somewhere in the 75? Looting could be decent to find the right pieces and life gain always seems relevant with our deck. Thoughts?
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
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Let's be honest, if chalice weren't in this deck, the deck would float somewhere between tier 2 and tier 3, I think it's a huge mistake not maining this card.
Last week I ran 2 warping wails in place of mindstone, and it went very well.
I also ran a maindeck wurmcoil
I see ulamog, and I'm so incredibly unimpressed by the card in the deck.
I think a constructive discussion on how to prepare/play/sideboard against Affinity (and Storm) should be in order as they seem to be 2 of the big 3 (including us) at the moment.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
You use a lot of hyperbole. Do you have any good arguments for your position?
It doesn't really matter. I think it's well established there are pros and cons to each strategy (main vs side). People forget that Chalice side was standard for this deck for the first several months of its existence, and the move to the main raised a lot of eyebrows. Ultimately it's not a big difference, and to say that it's a "huge mistake" to not play them in the main is just nonsense.
Sounds reasonable to me. Will have to try it over Pithing Needle and see how it rolls.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
This deck received little attention and controversial feelings until it saw results with chalice and ballista
I also don't think it's a coincidence that Dan musser popularised the lack of mindstone and moving ulamog and wurmcoil into the maindeck that the deck began to see poorer results across the board
In the dark that chalice can really determine if an ugly opener is worth keeping, Afterall, we want to be doing something broken early on. Taking that away leaves less broken things to do in the dark on game 1
I agree with all that you said except the Musser bit. The meta of larger tournaments always goes like this: One of the tier 1 decks dominates two tournaments in a row, so everyone packs excessive sideboard hate for the next tournaments to beat the new popular deck. One of the other tier 1 decks takes over because people cheaped out on hate and that cycle just repeats. People at all levels have seen Eldrazi Tron dominate for a stretch, so they are packing an absurd number of cards in the sideboard to beat it. Ceremonious Rejection, Stony Silence, artifact destruction, chalice removal, recurring fulminators, everyone has developed a plan for beating our deck by now. If affinity and storm dominate the elimination rounds and take a bunch of top 8 spots again this weekend or next, the hate will shift over to those decks. The difference in running Ulamog even with a Sanctum is cutting 1 non land and 1 Ghost Quarter from the deck, and not everone's doing that, and not everyone is going without Mind Stones either, so the drop in Top 8's and wins is not likely due to those things. We've just got the largest target on our back right now and I think that will change soon. I'm quite happy to be playing the deck if it's anywhere in the T1 to high T2 range, that means it can still cash out on tournaments and win FNM's.
Pretty much everyone that's tried Wail in the main deck has said it's been great, and in my opinion Mind Stone is the cut to make that happen as they conflict as T2 plays and Wail can serve as a sort of worse Mind Stone in a pinch while being significantly better against some of our worst matchups in Titanshift, Affinity, and Storm. I think that there's likely no version of the deck that is superior to another, it's perfectly fine to use no Ulamog and use Mind Stones to win through drawing more than the opponent and leaning on Enbringer, Karn, and SGW for late game. And it's also fine to depend on that line less and instead use Expedition Map, Sanctum, and Ulamog. Personally I really like having that inevitability available for when the game is either going grindy or I get absurd mana early, 'oops i win' topdecks and opening hands is where I like being with this deck (which is why I strongly agree with your points on chalice), although I had success and fun when I was using Mind Stones and drawing lots of cards as well. Everyone just needs to realize individuals will play to their style and their liking, and every modern deck has a couple slots to put spice or pet cards. It's all about perfecting your execution of your configuration of the deck, that is where success comes from.
WG G/W Tron GW
BG G/B Tron GB
GG Mono G Tron GG
RG G/R Tron GR
Pretty much agreed with everything you said
Pardee wrote that you have to accept sometimes that broken thing isn't quite the right broken thing you needed for game 1.
I mean, let's even look at decks like jund. You'll have hands where you're stacked on spot removal when suddenly your opponent plays a combo or control deck. Likewise, you'll have a hand with jund where you're stacked with threats and light on spot removal when you're opponent plays an elf.
I believe chalice truly is that powerful worth maindecking, it's partly why we straight up win games so free that all it involved was waking up that morning and showing up
This deck would still be pretty unnoticed if not for chalice and ballista completely putting this deck on the map.
I think without the chalice you're just closer to becoming a worse green tron deck.
Don't get me wrong - it's a great card, but it's firmly in the flex slot position at this point, while Karn is included no matter what.
Remember that if you're not playing Stone or Wail, the deck still has 28 mana sources (24 land, 4 map) and you'll get to 7 mana easily if the game goes long enough. Karn is positioned as a finisher and we don't need to accelerate into it because we have plenty of powerful things to do in the mid-game.
I've played tons with and without Stone and while it will help you get the big drops out faster, that doesn't necessarily matter much, when you consider what the other cards in those slots might give you. It's actually more useful for getting TKS and Smasher down early more consistently, I think.
Also, the deck gets tron more than you may think, which makes Stone less important in this context again.
Chalice is the card that is most often going to be dead itself or make something else you draw dead. It's also not an auto-win in most of the matchups where it's considered good.
I've lost plenty of times to Burn with Chalice on 1. I prefer it on 2 in the matchup, but often by the time you get to 4 lands, it's too late. And post-board, Burn will have removal (that also burns you).
I've won games against Storm with Chalice on 2, but more often than not it gets hit by Shattering Spree before they combo off. I like Relic because at least I can activate it in response to Spree. Spatial Contortion is good because it hits both Baral and Electromancer. Wail can be good if you can pull it off. Ratchet Bomb is good post-board for tokens. Cage gets Spree'd and doesn't stop tokens.
Against Affinity, Chalice feels pretty meh on the draw. Seems better as a post-board card in that matchup.
Chalice is really good against Grixis Shadow. But I feel strongly favored in that matchup with my current deck anyway. I have a 4 match win streak going against GDS. I do side in all 4.
Chalice is decent against Elves, but that matchup feels pretty miserable in spite of it.
Obviously there is nothing wrong with main decking the card, but I think bringing it in out of the side is just as valid and is more of a meta call than anything.
By moving it to the side, you open up space in your deck for more threats or answers depending on how you want to approach your meta. I'm currently testing with:
2x Conduit of Ruin
1x Ulamog
1x Wurmcoil Engine
The deck isn't doing "broken things" with Chalice early in the game, but playing Ulamog at any point is pretty broken, and this configuration is by far the easiest way to get him into play. Conduit seems pretty good; I don't tutor up Ulamog unless I can cast him. Being able to cast Smasher for 3 mana or Wurmcoil for 4 mana is pretty nice. I like this go-big, threat-heavy configuration right now.... it's a lot of fun.
Hot damn I love it when I see Conduit of Ruin.
Just a thought its not better than Wurmcoil but you could play around with Bane of Bala Ged in that slot and it is tutor-able via Conduit or Sanctum of Ugin if you run it and don't have the mana for Ulamog at the time. Whatever the case kudos to you for playing my favorite pet card.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I was actually just recently doing searches for more Eldrazi in the 5-8 CMC range. I'm going to test a version of the deck with no Karn, probably no Wurmcoil - just Eldrazi and Ballista. I want to see if it feels more consistent. I hate when I'm sitting there with two Temples down, 6-7 total "Eldrazi mana", but can't cast a Karn or Wurmcoil. I may also try a 2nd Titan, maybe Butcher of Truth.
Indeed, Chalice is a great card in Modern and the only reason there aren't more decks running it is because it's really hard to make a modern deck without having a lot of 1 and 2 cost cards in it.
WG G/W Tron GW
BG G/B Tron GB
GG Mono G Tron GG
RG G/R Tron GR
You're getting quite extreme here, I have yet to see an Eldrazi Tron list even top 8 a major tournament with chalices in the side, let alone removed from the 75 entirely. I don't see how it's constructive to give no reasoning or evidence to support your extreme claim that 'it is over now'. If there's anyone being hyperbolic here, it's this guy.
WG G/W Tron GW
BG G/B Tron GB
GG Mono G Tron GG
RG G/R Tron GR
I hear where you are coming from. Nothing is going to be better than Karn in that slot (save an Ugin or new Ulamog) and casting them can also be problematic. That magic 7 mana number off natural Tron turn 3 is what makes Karn so oppressive.
BUT…
If as you say you want to sacrifice slightly unreliable pressure and power for more consistency of casting with Temples I'd look into the following in the 6 and 7 cmc slot to run with Conduit of Ruin.
Bane of Bala Ged Applies pressure and can block/kill a big Death's Shadow but as always "dies to removal"
Deceiver of Form I had fun with this one for a while. Nothing like making a couple of on board Matter Reshapers 5/5 tramplers and getting a scry 1 effect.
Oblivion Sower Could be decent in certain Metas.
Void Winnower This one is 9 cmc unfortunately but talk about shutting down Storm, Affinity and Burn. (If you manage to play it in time.)
Good luck and as always let us know your results.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Karn is great because you are guaranteed to exile 1 permanent and he has a game-ending upside if not answered. But in my experience he usually doesn't stick for a 2nd turn.
However, you raise a great point - I always tutor for Temple unless I have a clear path to Tron. And with the amount of land hate in modern, Tron can be quite hard to get or maintain in a lot of matchups.
I'll test it for a few leagues.
Could it be time to consider Smuggler's Copter or Aethersphere Harvester as a +2 somewhere in the 75? Looting could be decent to find the right pieces and life gain always seems relevant with our deck. Thoughts?
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."