What does red really do for the deck, at this point? It seems like people are cutting Tarfires and K-Commands, and several recent lists have only 2 Battle Rage and 2 Terminate as mainboard red cards. Terminate could easily be Path to Exile (and I would argue that Path is the better card right now), so are 2 Battle Rage really worth the splash?
Why not seriously just play grixis at that point
The deck has to play with 6 bad cards (4 baubles, 2 tarfires)
This sub-forum should honestly be in the tier 2 category, because it's barely even hanging on to tier 2 status, according to everywhere else
The deck seems to have lost track of what it needs to do; maybe it was never that great except against metas that refused to interact with people.
What does red really do for the deck, at this point? It seems like people are cutting Tarfires and K-Commands, and several recent lists have only 2 Battle Rage and 2 Terminate as mainboard red cards. Terminate could easily be Path to Exile (and I would argue that Path is the better card right now), so are 2 Battle Rage really worth the splash?
I think 2 TBR are certainly worth it. You want that game stealer against Big Mana. My current list looks like this:
What does red really do for the deck, at this point? It seems like people are cutting Tarfires and K-Commands, and several recent lists have only 2 Battle Rage and 2 Terminate as mainboard red cards. Terminate could easily be Path to Exile (and I would argue that Path is the better card right now), so are 2 Battle Rage really worth the splash?
Why not seriously just play grixis at that point
The deck has to play with 6 bad cards (4 baubles, 2 tarfires)
This sub-forum should honestly be in the tier 2 category, because it's barely even hanging on to tier 2 status, according to everywhere else
The deck seems to have lost track of what it needs to do; maybe it was never that great except against metas that refused to interact with people.
I don't disagree that Grixis is better than the current Jund lists, and I think that it's partly because the current lists are outdated. I think that with the red splash, Jund DS is just doing what Grixis does, but worse, and I'm more interested in exploring what white has to offer as a third color. What if we played white instead of red, and the minor splash color was blue for stubborn denial? There was a list posted farther up the page that does exactly that, and I think that's the direction the deck has to go in to beat Grixis and adapt to where the meta has gone.
I think 2 TBR are certainly worth it. You want that game stealer against Big Mana.
It feels like making more common matchups worse (Grixis DS, U/x/x, B/G/x) to make less common matchups better, and Battle Rage is just such a liability in grindier games. Is that something that could be solved by leaning on a blue splash with Stubborn Denial?
What does red really do for the deck, at this point? It seems like people are cutting Tarfires and K-Commands, and several recent lists have only 2 Battle Rage and 2 Terminate as mainboard red cards. Terminate could easily be Path to Exile (and I would argue that Path is the better card right now), so are 2 Battle Rage really worth the splash?
This sub-forum should honestly be in the tier 2 category, because it's barely even hanging on to tier 2 status, according to everywhere else
The deck seems to have lost track of what it needs to do; maybe it was never that great except against metas that refused to interact with people.
What will be sided out if you are against Living End? I just changed my main deck to yours
I would first go for the obvious ones: Fatal Push and Decay. Then you can switch the Godless Shrine with Watery grave and bring in 3 Stubborn Denials and GY hate.
Hey guys! I'm going to a local modern tournament next week and I've already know the basic meta. There will be 2 Living End, Titanshift, Ad Nauseam, Affinity, Elves, Fish, Burn, Eldrazi Tron, 2 Gx Tron, Gift Storm...
And my current sideboard looks like this:
1 Godless Shrine
1 Kataki, Wars Wage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Fatal Push
1 Stubborn Denial (2 in MB)
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Collective Brutality
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Ancient Grudge
I drop Lingering Souls and Ranger cos there will be no Grindy match up for me, and I splash white just for Eidolon and Kataki... i know there're a lot of combo decks , but is it really worth it? Any thoughts?
What would you guys do here (pretending traverse was not cast yet)? I feel like because I haven't had a lot of midrange experience I'm prone to making marginal mistakes that ends up costing me later on.
I had two streams of thoughts: 1. traverse for a shockland, terminate Gurmy, and ensure liliana can come down next turn and take over the game, or 2. this matchup will be all about attrition, and you are not in a hurry. Therefore, just terminate Gurmy, hope to draw a land in the next bit and convert Traverse into another threat and cast Liliana naturally.
Its hard to say without knowing if he knows about the lili. If he doesn't know about the lili you definitely don't traverse for land. It would be correct for him to gurmag before removal in that case so its still very likely he has removal spells in hand and you're going to need more threats.
If you're on lingering souls/ranger you can afford to go a bit longer which makes lili slightly more attractive. But if not cards trade pretty interchangeably in this matchup so you plusing to discard your decay/push isnt' actually great. Next turn if he has any decent hand he's either going to be playing a shadow or playing a removal spell, and in both those cases your covered by not traversing for a land so i think its okay to wait.
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Playing standard:
RUG:
10-3-4(ID)
Venser UW control:
3-0-1
Its hard to say without knowing if he knows about the lili. If he doesn't know about the lili you definitely don't traverse for land. It would be correct for him to gurmag before removal in that case so its still very likely he has removal spells in hand and you're going to need more threats.
If you're on lingering souls/ranger you can afford to go a bit longer which makes lili slightly more attractive. But if not cards trade pretty interchangeably in this matchup so you plusing to discard your decay/push isnt' actually great. Next turn if he has any decent hand he's either going to be playing a shadow or playing a removal spell, and in both those cases your covered by not traversing for a land so i think its okay to wait.
Thanks, I really felt like I had made a mistake immediately after casting Traverse for the land. Had to realize what matters in the matchup, which isn't speed but threats/answers
I haven't had the chance to test claim//fame out but I'd be surprised if its what put us over the top of grixis. If we're playing this over grixis I think its because we're better against the hate: temur battle rage vs go wide and big mana decks, tarfire+lotv vs mirrian, decay vs rip/challice.
I will test it for sure but here's what has me skeptical of the card:
1) the 3 most played decks in the format are Etron ,Grixis, and affinity. vs Etron and affinity id prefer Kcomm by a mile, and against grixis its close, but prob in claim//fame's favor.
2) a huge section of the rest of the metagame is G/W/x decks, and combo decks. Which either deal with our creatures by path, ignore them, or chump them.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/modern/full#paper of the top 18 decks, only 4 actually kill creatures with removal spells. The only thing that really excites me about claim is discarding anything of value to lili is impactful in deck that makes such efficient use of its resources.
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Playing standard:
RUG:
10-3-4(ID)
Venser UW control:
3-0-1
Is it essential, no not like goyf or deaths shadow. Is it good? Yeah its pretty good. There are certainly arguments for not running it, but it kills mirran crucader, and in matchups like adnaus and scapeshift it can be hard to turn on traverse because your creatures don't die and they have no targets for your instants, so it helps a lot their. Also the more I play the deck the more i tarfire myself, it comes up a surprising amount.
If you cut it you really have to ask yourself if red is worth it. Reid duke had an abzan version a while back that might be good now.
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Playing standard:
RUG:
10-3-4(ID)
Venser UW control:
3-0-1
Hey, new to the forum but I've enjoyed the DSJ deck a bit more than GDS. I play this list (below) to some success.
I was hoping to get a take on it from others (since I'm not the strongest player) who are trying to keep this variant alive. It seems lot of players are experimenting with the ALL IN zoo version and of course GDS is seen as the competitive current best DS incarnation.
I've gone through a lot of modifications on the deck to just kinda putz around but I've been enjoying the velocity of this current build and haven't touched it much since.
Should I just run 2 Decay mainboard or 1 Decay and 1 K Command? Going to a PPTQ next week and don't really kno about the meta that much(Multiple GDS for sure).
The "Jund Gods" list from couple pages back got me thinking about Dark Confidant. In the same deck with 4 of 5-mana cantrips and Hazorets it seemed weird, but what if one was to replace in more traditional built those 5-mana cantrips with Bob? There is an opinion that Wraiths, together with Baubles, are "bad cards" run for the sake of Traverse. And Bob generally does similar things Wraiths do - turning life into cards and turning on delirium as a creature (because let's be honest, nothing dies as good as Bob does). The tech of Bauble=>Wraith=>fetchland is lost, but nevertheless, the potential to draw more than one card and sneak in some damage to opponent seem worthwile to try it. Does anyone else feel I'm onto something or am I just rambling nonsense?
@DavosChain, its hard to say without knowing what your 3 slot looks like now, but i haven't been on 2 decay in like 100 matches. So id suggest the choice is between Kcomm, terminate, and dismember. Term/dismember are better against grixis, Kcomm is better vs the field. Personally for 3's im on 2-3 LotV 1-2 Kcomm.
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Playing standard:
RUG:
10-3-4(ID)
Venser UW control:
3-0-1
Are there any players that are still stick with this deck?
I went to a pptq last week with Jund Shadow (splashing white version) and got 8th place. I feel that this deck is still a good deck and the reason why the results of this deck can rarely be seen may be the lack of players? It seems that everyone just go Grixis.
I like Jund version more and hopefully one day it will make a comeback
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Why not seriously just play grixis at that point
The deck has to play with 6 bad cards (4 baubles, 2 tarfires)
This sub-forum should honestly be in the tier 2 category, because it's barely even hanging on to tier 2 status, according to everywhere else
The deck seems to have lost track of what it needs to do; maybe it was never that great except against metas that refused to interact with people.
I think 2 TBR are certainly worth it. You want that game stealer against Big Mana. My current list looks like this:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Godless Shrine
1 Swamp
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
2 Grim Flayer
Spells [28]
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Temur Battle Rage
But I agree Grixis has the advantage of Snappy and Delve creatures.
I don't disagree that Grixis is better than the current Jund lists, and I think that it's partly because the current lists are outdated. I think that with the red splash, Jund DS is just doing what Grixis does, but worse, and I'm more interested in exploring what white has to offer as a third color. What if we played white instead of red, and the minor splash color was blue for stubborn denial? There was a list posted farther up the page that does exactly that, and I think that's the direction the deck has to go in to beat Grixis and adapt to where the meta has gone.
It feels like making more common matchups worse (Grixis DS, U/x/x, B/G/x) to make less common matchups better, and Battle Rage is just such a liability in grindier games. Is that something that could be solved by leaning on a blue splash with Stubborn Denial?
Well, actually it's BGx Shadow, so it includes BGw, BGu and 4-color Shadow.
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
I would first go for the obvious ones: Fatal Push and Decay. Then you can switch the Godless Shrine with Watery grave and bring in 3 Stubborn Denials and GY hate.
And my current sideboard looks like this:
1 Godless Shrine
1 Kataki, Wars Wage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Fatal Push
1 Stubborn Denial (2 in MB)
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Collective Brutality
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Ancient Grudge
I drop Lingering Souls and Ranger cos there will be no Grindy match up for me, and I splash white just for Eidolon and Kataki... i know there're a lot of combo decks , but is it really worth it? Any thoughts?
What would you guys do here (pretending traverse was not cast yet)? I feel like because I haven't had a lot of midrange experience I'm prone to making marginal mistakes that ends up costing me later on.
I had two streams of thoughts: 1. traverse for a shockland, terminate Gurmy, and ensure liliana can come down next turn and take over the game, or 2. this matchup will be all about attrition, and you are not in a hurry. Therefore, just terminate Gurmy, hope to draw a land in the next bit and convert Traverse into another threat and cast Liliana naturally.
If you're on lingering souls/ranger you can afford to go a bit longer which makes lili slightly more attractive. But if not cards trade pretty interchangeably in this matchup so you plusing to discard your decay/push isnt' actually great. Next turn if he has any decent hand he's either going to be playing a shadow or playing a removal spell, and in both those cases your covered by not traversing for a land so i think its okay to wait.
RUG:
10-3-4(ID)
Venser UW control:
3-0-1
Thanks, I really felt like I had made a mistake immediately after casting Traverse for the land. Had to realize what matters in the matchup, which isn't speed but threats/answers
I will test it for sure but here's what has me skeptical of the card:
1) the 3 most played decks in the format are Etron ,Grixis, and affinity. vs Etron and affinity id prefer Kcomm by a mile, and against grixis its close, but prob in claim//fame's favor.
2) a huge section of the rest of the metagame is G/W/x decks, and combo decks. Which either deal with our creatures by path, ignore them, or chump them.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/modern/full#paper of the top 18 decks, only 4 actually kill creatures with removal spells. The only thing that really excites me about claim is discarding anything of value to lili is impactful in deck that makes such efficient use of its resources.
RUG:
10-3-4(ID)
Venser UW control:
3-0-1
If you cut it you really have to ask yourself if red is worth it. Reid duke had an abzan version a while back that might be good now.
RUG:
10-3-4(ID)
Venser UW control:
3-0-1
I was hoping to get a take on it from others (since I'm not the strongest player) who are trying to keep this variant alive. It seems lot of players are experimenting with the ALL IN zoo version and of course GDS is seen as the competitive current best DS incarnation.
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Godless Shrine
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
1 Forest
ENCHANTMENTS(4):
4 Oath of Nissa
INSTANTS(8):
3 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Abrupt Decay
SORCERIES(10):
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Thoughtsieze
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
ARTIFACTS(4):
4 Mishra's Bauble
CREATURES(12):
4 Death's Shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Street Wraith
2 Rancor
2 Collective Brutality
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
I've gone through a lot of modifications on the deck to just kinda putz around but I've been enjoying the velocity of this current build and haven't touched it much since.
RUG:
10-3-4(ID)
Venser UW control:
3-0-1
I went to a pptq last week with Jund Shadow (splashing white version) and got 8th place. I feel that this deck is still a good deck and the reason why the results of this deck can rarely be seen may be the lack of players? It seems that everyone just go Grixis.
I like Jund version more and hopefully one day it will make a comeback