What do you guys think of the Narnam Renegade tech against death's shadow/big creature decks that Craig Berry used last week in the SCG top 8? Worth exploring? I like that he comes down before they can discard it and can stonewall Shadows/Goyfs or Eldrazi.
That is one really interesting list. He's splashing black off of one Blood Crypt to get Engineered Explosives to 3 if need be, and cast Slaughter games from the sideboard, as a full 4-of. Also has one swamp in the board as well, presumably for more reliable black when siding in the Slaughter Games. This definitely feels like a more control oriented version with 5 sweepers maindeck, a full 4 Explore, 3 Tireless Trackers in the board, the aformentioned Slaughter games, and the Narnam Renegades even feel like they might just be control cards because they probably just come in as a removal spell that can't be discarded as easily.
Obviously something in his list worked well for him as it took him all the way to the Top 8. I would really like to see him talk about the list. I want to know if Narnam Renegade was only in there to kill creatures or if it was to be a little more aggressive. Also, I want to know if he considered the full on Jund list instead of just splashing so that he could use Fatal Push. I don't even know if this event got coverage, if it did, did anyone see him use Narnam renegade? And if so, how was it used?
I really love Narnam Renegade as a card, I run it in Stompy, but I don't know how to feel about it in this deck. I think it might be better than Hornet's Nest in the R/G list, but I don't think I will test it yet in Jund. Like Duramboros said, it comes in under discard if you are on the play and stonewalls any creature that might think about attacking you. It even eats 2/x's. I just don't feel the need for it in Jund as I can already kill Tarmogoyf, Death's Shadow, and even eldrazi at 4 and under easily.
@OfurTheSalty Thank you, glad to hear you like the deck. Also, thanks for the /r/Scaepshift shoutout lol.
Like others said, if you're looking for the effect something like Expedite would be all around better. Easily giving haste to Titan is what would make it broken (see pre-ban Amulet Titan deck), so most of the effects that allow you to do that aren't easy to use. Someone suggested Samut, which seems reasonable but would require you to cast both Search for Tomorrow and a 2 mana ramp spell to hit this and your titan on curve. If you're already playing Amulet, you could just put a Boros Garrison and Slayer's Stronghold in your manabase (that's would strictly be for fun).
@afosz The deck has no way to win on turn 3. There are a few a ways to do it with Amulet, but are a little more convoluted. You can win with 4 lands, Scapeshift, KHE, and Omen, but that happens on turn 4 as well.
The more I think about Narnam Renegade the more curious I get. It does seem like the lowest mana cost option in R/G to deal with huge threats, and it is the most P/T for a 1 mana deathtouch creature in modern I believe. But it still seems odd. It gives them a target for their otherwise dead removal.
It might be a mind game type card. Jeskai Control used to bring in Geist of Saint Traft in game 2 against decks that run sweepers to try to get them to side them back in game 3 when the geist goes back out. Maybe Renegade is like that. Bring it in Game 2 if you are on the play to help win that game then take it out on the draw Game 3 when it's worse anyway to hope they bring back in blank removal spells to make winning game 3 easier.
I'm not going to say you are wrong, I just want to say this for people who might be reading this thread trying to decide on a splash. 12 mountains is fine. Yes, you have to be careful, but if you pay attention, it won't mess you up too bad. And the life loss really isn't huge. Yes, 13 mountains makes life easier, but it's not gonna win you games that being careful and planning ahead in game wouldn't have won you anyway.
Obviously the deck is still viable as Jund or Naya and with good practice and planning you can minimize most of the impact of the manabase.
But even at perfect play it is still there and can lead to mulligans or cost you games. (every magic player has won games on 1, 2 or 3 lifepoints, those sometimes would be losses with the 3 color version)
So yeah, i still think RG is the most consistant version.
One major reason to run 3 colors, besides the fun of course, is the rogue factor.
Your opponent will be even more scared than they already are of this deck and they often end up not playing in the best way.
That's also a good reason to run stuff like wood elves (which i did before everybody started doing it) or shefet monitor.
It's also a reason why i change up my lists at FNM.
One example for that would be from a few weeks ago when i player against U/W.
I cast summoner's pact and the guy didn't counter it.
So i just got a shefet monitor which ended up winning me the game. It also meant he had wasted his turn because he was holding crypitc and other counter spells.
I feel the games where you lose because of not having good removal in R/G far outnumber the games you win off the 1-2 life you save. Also, you are right about the rogue factor to an extent. Not knowing what they are playing against can lead some players to make suboptimal plays. But, the lack of familiarity that comes from changing your list too often will also lead to you not making optimal plays. So, it's a trade off. If you have a bunch of experience with multiple versions (or multiple decks, I play 3 decks regularly so even my regular opponents don't know what I'm playing game 1) then you get more benefit, but if you are changing things up with no practice, you'll wreck yourself.
Also, I see way too many control players get greedy by not countering Summoner's Pact to try to slow down our next turn hoping to counter what we get, then they get wrecked by a Thrun, the Last Troll or something else. I really think, especially post board, countering the pact is better. Sure it leaves us with more mana the next turn, but we probably weren't using that mana anyway since pact is the worst wincon and thus the one we cast last if we have multiples.
Last thing, I want to take out my explores in Jund. After maxing out on farseek, I'm still left with a spot. Do you all think the third Khalni Heart Expedition is better, or should I try a wood elves? Once I pick up another one, that slot will almost definitely be a third Courser of Kruphix as it is just so amazingly good every time I cast it. In the meantime though, I need to choose. If it's not another ramp card, it could be a maindeck sweeper or any number of things. Suggestions?
edit: For context for my question, my maindeck is the stock Jund list with khalni heart instead of prismatic omen. So if you look at the list in the primer, its that with 4 farseek, 0 explore, 2 KHE, and 1 open slot.
Baiting with a pact is a play that really relies on a hard read. You need them to have a counter in hand and counter the pact.
And I don't run Omen because when I was initially picking up the cards for the deck no one around had them (I usually prefer buying local over online). And I have had a lot of success without them, so I haven't ordered any online. I want to try them, but I can't find them in Chicago. I'm judging two PPTQ's over the next week at shops I've never been to though, so if I see any I'll pick them up.
It's good in the right meta. If you have a lot of mirror matches or see a lot of tron, it's worth it. Play it on turn three to set up a kill on turn four and stop them from killing you first is good.
But in an Aggro meta, a lot of things are better.
Brief aside, has anyone tried the blue splash other than when nookularboy played it at an event and did a write up? It seems fun. Not well positioned right now, but fun. It looks decent in the mirror and against control decks as it can run some counterspells to beat the mirror and protect the combo.
Baiting with a pact is a play that really relies on a hard read. You need them to have a counter in hand and counter the pact.
If you are already holding the winning spell, what bad thing can possibly come from playing the pact first?
All the pressure is on them.
If they let it resolve then counter your next play you might not have enough mana to win next turn after paying for pact. Unless you have the hard read on them countering pact, play it last.
Edit: @Brock52, I side 3 Anger of the gods for Aggro in Jundshift. If it's something like burn, some number of collective brutality can come in as well. If it's something like Big Zoo, Obstinate baloths are a nice road bump for them. If it's Affinity, your artifact and enchantment hate amcan come in.
Well, my question about what to put in Jund shift is a moot point now. I judged a PPTQ in a shop I've never been to before today and was able to trade in some cards for 3 Prismatic Omen and some EDH stuff. I have only gotten to try it shortly, but it seems very powerful so far.
Also, @lejoon, have you considered sideboarding Terminate or Murderous Cut in Jund instead of going Naya? That still lets you have maindeck outs to Blood Moon and still deal with those bigger creatures. We never use our graveyard and delving it can even make goyf etc worse. Or terminate is consistently 2 mana and easy to cast. I have also found that Relic of Progenitus is enough of a speed bump to beat Death's Shadow. You don't have to neuter them completely to win, just earn enough time. Plus, Relic coming down on 1 is big.
I am noticing the same thing, Lejoon. I feel like we are probably 40-60 in that matchup. Stubburn is not that great against us because we can win with Titan, but we are weak to turn 1 discard, turn 2 DS, turn 3 more discard... EE isn't a good answer to the delve threats. The good answers in white are Path and Nahiri, although Nahiri will be hard to resolve.
What about Oust as a possible sideboard card? It would not be great in a normal metagame, but the meta right now is ridiculously full of Death's Shadow. It can remove a delve creature or Tarmogoyf and shrink Death's Shadow.
3 seems to be the standard number I've been seeing for a while in most versions. And when the store had 3 that I could get in a deal with other cards I didn't see a reason not to get them just because some people have been running 2 lately. Also, when testing a new card I like to run more copies of it anyway so that I am more likely to see it and thus be able to evaluate it. Maybe I cut down to 2 an dgo up another card later but I want to try it at 3 for a while.
Also, I looked at the list you posted brock52. I would suggest trying Courser of Kruphix over Wood elves if you haven't. I think it's worth a shot. I don't know if two sweepers and two abrupt decay main is great. I guess you have kept the ramp and flex numbers the same by using wood elves as ramp and sweepers as flex though so you might be fine. But you also might find yourself needing a 2 mana ramp spell and not having it. As for the sideboard, I would cut Ancient Grudge, Grafdiggers cage, and fracturing gust from the board to replace with some number of other cards. That seems like a little too much artifact and enchantment hate when you are running Decay, 2 nature's claim, and a Rec Sage. Cutting those leaves room to shore up other things. Maybe another relic or Anger if you still want grave hate (I think they are better than grafdigger) a third Baloth wouldn't be bad, maybe that narnam renegade tech from a few days ago, maybe just some terminates or murderous cuts for the Grixis shadow decks.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=113915
Obviously something in his list worked well for him as it took him all the way to the Top 8. I would really like to see him talk about the list. I want to know if Narnam Renegade was only in there to kill creatures or if it was to be a little more aggressive. Also, I want to know if he considered the full on Jund list instead of just splashing so that he could use Fatal Push. I don't even know if this event got coverage, if it did, did anyone see him use Narnam renegade? And if so, how was it used?
I really love Narnam Renegade as a card, I run it in Stompy, but I don't know how to feel about it in this deck. I think it might be better than Hornet's Nest in the R/G list, but I don't think I will test it yet in Jund. Like Duramboros said, it comes in under discard if you are on the play and stonewalls any creature that might think about attacking you. It even eats 2/x's. I just don't feel the need for it in Jund as I can already kill Tarmogoyf, Death's Shadow, and even eldrazi at 4 and under easily.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
You're right. Miscalculate on that one, my bad.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
It might be a mind game type card. Jeskai Control used to bring in Geist of Saint Traft in game 2 against decks that run sweepers to try to get them to side them back in game 3 when the geist goes back out. Maybe Renegade is like that. Bring it in Game 2 if you are on the play to help win that game then take it out on the draw Game 3 when it's worse anyway to hope they bring back in blank removal spells to make winning game 3 easier.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
Also, how was Shefet Monitor?
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
I feel the games where you lose because of not having good removal in R/G far outnumber the games you win off the 1-2 life you save. Also, you are right about the rogue factor to an extent. Not knowing what they are playing against can lead some players to make suboptimal plays. But, the lack of familiarity that comes from changing your list too often will also lead to you not making optimal plays. So, it's a trade off. If you have a bunch of experience with multiple versions (or multiple decks, I play 3 decks regularly so even my regular opponents don't know what I'm playing game 1) then you get more benefit, but if you are changing things up with no practice, you'll wreck yourself.
Also, I see way too many control players get greedy by not countering Summoner's Pact to try to slow down our next turn hoping to counter what we get, then they get wrecked by a Thrun, the Last Troll or something else. I really think, especially post board, countering the pact is better. Sure it leaves us with more mana the next turn, but we probably weren't using that mana anyway since pact is the worst wincon and thus the one we cast last if we have multiples.
Last thing, I want to take out my explores in Jund. After maxing out on farseek, I'm still left with a spot. Do you all think the third Khalni Heart Expedition is better, or should I try a wood elves? Once I pick up another one, that slot will almost definitely be a third Courser of Kruphix as it is just so amazingly good every time I cast it. In the meantime though, I need to choose. If it's not another ramp card, it could be a maindeck sweeper or any number of things. Suggestions?
edit: For context for my question, my maindeck is the stock Jund list with khalni heart instead of prismatic omen. So if you look at the list in the primer, its that with 4 farseek, 0 explore, 2 KHE, and 1 open slot.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
And I don't run Omen because when I was initially picking up the cards for the deck no one around had them (I usually prefer buying local over online). And I have had a lot of success without them, so I haven't ordered any online. I want to try them, but I can't find them in Chicago. I'm judging two PPTQ's over the next week at shops I've never been to though, so if I see any I'll pick them up.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
But in an Aggro meta, a lot of things are better.
Brief aside, has anyone tried the blue splash other than when nookularboy played it at an event and did a write up? It seems fun. Not well positioned right now, but fun. It looks decent in the mirror and against control decks as it can run some counterspells to beat the mirror and protect the combo.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
If they let it resolve then counter your next play you might not have enough mana to win next turn after paying for pact. Unless you have the hard read on them countering pact, play it last.
Edit: @Brock52, I side 3 Anger of the gods for Aggro in Jundshift. If it's something like burn, some number of collective brutality can come in as well. If it's something like Big Zoo, Obstinate baloths are a nice road bump for them. If it's Affinity, your artifact and enchantment hate amcan come in.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
A link to my list. I have a IQ next month.
Also, @lejoon, have you considered sideboarding Terminate or Murderous Cut in Jund instead of going Naya? That still lets you have maindeck outs to Blood Moon and still deal with those bigger creatures. We never use our graveyard and delving it can even make goyf etc worse. Or terminate is consistently 2 mana and easy to cast. I have also found that Relic of Progenitus is enough of a speed bump to beat Death's Shadow. You don't have to neuter them completely to win, just earn enough time. Plus, Relic coming down on 1 is big.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
What about Oust as a possible sideboard card? It would not be great in a normal metagame, but the meta right now is ridiculously full of Death's Shadow. It can remove a delve creature or Tarmogoyf and shrink Death's Shadow.
Also, I looked at the list you posted brock52. I would suggest trying Courser of Kruphix over Wood elves if you haven't. I think it's worth a shot. I don't know if two sweepers and two abrupt decay main is great. I guess you have kept the ramp and flex numbers the same by using wood elves as ramp and sweepers as flex though so you might be fine. But you also might find yourself needing a 2 mana ramp spell and not having it. As for the sideboard, I would cut Ancient Grudge, Grafdiggers cage, and fracturing gust from the board to replace with some number of other cards. That seems like a little too much artifact and enchantment hate when you are running Decay, 2 nature's claim, and a Rec Sage. Cutting those leaves room to shore up other things. Maybe another relic or Anger if you still want grave hate (I think they are better than grafdigger) a third Baloth wouldn't be bad, maybe that narnam renegade tech from a few days ago, maybe just some terminates or murderous cuts for the Grixis shadow decks.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
2-0 vs Skred Red
2-0 vs Junk
1-2 vs Jund
1-2 vs Mono U Turns
2-1 vs UW Control
2-0 vs Eldrazi Tron
I miss the top 8 of little.
Wood elves and Tireless Tracker are gas.
RG Titan Scapeshift GR
UBWAd Nauseam WBU
CEldrazi TronC
I agree. MTGO is simply run over with Death's Shadow (and UWx Control variants for me).
Also saw your meta writ-up on Reddit. Great work!
Fetch-Shock-Blog
Moderator of /r/Scapeshift