Other than Bolts replacing Pyroclasm, MB is same as the list I ran in GP São Paulo.
SB has one experiment: K-Return. Being able to hit it with Stirring is amazing, but I always felt it was a turn too late. I want to test if it works better when you also have Bolt to slow down aggro. If it doesn't work I'll just swap back Pyroclasm in these slots.
Other than that, not completely set on the SB, might cut a few cards to make room for Pithing Needle or Sorcerous Spyglass. Any other suggestions?
Other than Bolts replacing Pyroclasm, MB is same as the list I ran in GP São Paulo.
SB has one experiment: K-Return. Being able to hit it with Stirring is amazing, but I always felt it was a turn too late. I want to test if it works better when you also have Bolt to slow down aggro. If it doesn't work I'll just swap back Pyroclasm in these slots.
Other than that, not completely set on the SB, might cut a few cards to make room for Pithing Needle or Sorcerous Spyglass. Any other suggestions?
My first thought...do you really need three Kozilek's Return and the two EE in the sideboard? Heck, is the meta such that Lightning Bolt is where we should really be in the main deck right now? Around here, I'm not seeing enough to justify that, but maybe your meta is different. I think you'd be fine with 3-4 red sweepers and the pair of EE already without the Bolts, but again, that's just me. Freeing up a few of those slots would make the room for Pithing Needles or Spyglasses that you'd like to use. Overall, your list looks really good; I hope it does you justice!
Heck, is the meta such that Lightning Bolt is where we should really be in the main deck right now?
That's what I want to find out.
Part of the idea of testing this came from playing around with GB Tron... I was surprised about how much work the -2/-2 mode of Brutality did, and it made me realize there aren't that many aggro matchups nowadays where you can/need to kill multiple creatures T2, and that I was rather satisfied most of the time with single-target removal.
I also liked how Brutality was never "dead", and while Bolt is not as flexible it still can hit manlands, planeswalkers, x/3 creatures, plus has lower CMC and instant speed. Worst-case it can also go to the face, though this is only marginally useful for us.
Another thing I noticed while playtesting GB is that I really missed the perfect manabase from the GR version, plus the nice bonus Groves have of disrupting Shadow's gameplay.
All thinks combined, I kept thinking a build like this was worth testing, and seeing that list at SCG made me decide to go through with it.
My first thought...do you really need three Kozilek's Return and the two EE in the sideboard?
Maybe.
They have very different roles -> K-Return is mostly there to make Affinity more reasonable, while EE is a general-use tool that can kill Chalice and stall Shadow while still being useful in a bunch of different matchups.
It's possible I can cut some of these, maybe adding a couple Ancient Grudges to improve Affinity while solving Chalice? Not entirely sure this is a better setup, though, and I'd accept some suggestions for SB configuration if you guys have it.
So, with no banlist changes, Storm is going to continue to be a thing that Tron struggles to beat. Has anyone tested jamming Mindbreak Trap into the sideboard just for this matchup, like we used to run Combust just for the Twin matchup
So, with no banlist changes, Storm is going to continue to be a thing that Tron struggles to beat. Has anyone tested jamming Mindbreak Trap into the sideboard just for this matchup, like we used to run Combust just for the Twin matchup
Isn't it better to just add more Relics/Warping Wail/Removal?
I tried Thorn of Amethyst in the past - not especially for this MU, but it can do some work I guess. And Orbs are great, of course. Shuts off Gifts and both of their usual win cons.
Honestly i am not a fan of boarding for nearly unwinnable MUs like Storm.
I prefer to elevate 40-60 MUs like Burn to atleast 50-50 with cards that do some work in other MUs aswell. Thragtusk for example is good against burn but also does a good job at replacing Wurmcoil against Path decks and is a value blocker against DS.
I know relic and Orbs/WOrb do work against scapeshift etc. aswell but i think you get my point.
Improve your close MUs and just hope you dodge the near unwinnable ones. That's my tactic atleast
IMO Tron is in a okay-bad spot at the moment. Storm is on the rise which is a horrible MU for us, Eldrazi Tron is not a really good MU either. If the meta shifts towards more Merfolk and 5C Humans after the recent SCG Tournament i can see Tron getting stronger again.
I think you shouldn't look for what is "the best deck" but what is the deck you would enjoy playing the most. Gx Tron has seen better days but i still love my old fashioned GR list and i love playing it. Eldrazi Tron for instance is currently a bit stronger than Gx Tron IMO but i tested it and i didn't feel it. It was no "real" Tron (If that makes any sense...)
Proxy up the decks, play around a bit and then decide on what is most fun. All 3 decks are viable
All our 1-Mana spells (8 Eggs, 4 Stirrings, Removal suite of your choice) are pretty essential for our deck. Burn can always just Revelry your chalice or empty their hand fast enough to get around it.
The Eggs and Stirrings have their name as "the engine" for a reason. The redraws are incredibly potent and Stirrings is arguably the best cantrip in Modern.
Eldrazi Tron is another story as they do not play Eggs and Stirrings. They only play Expedition Map and Basilisk's Collar as 1 Mana spells.
I always felt this matchup to be relatively close. They either need to lock us out with a Chalice (which is not always possible, since sometimes we only need the first CMC1 card to finish the setup), or have a fast hand with QG + early TKS/Smasher to kill us before we start dropping bombs.
Almost all of our payoff cards are really bad news for them.
After trying to make all the different Gx Trons work, Gb is the only one that feels good nowadays. Push is such a flexible removal spell that's rarely dead weight, and SB Brutalities (if not MD) also help shore up such a wide variety of MUs.
I feel like red might potentially be in a better place than it has been thanks to the resurgence of Vial decks (5c Humans, UG Folk), but I actually almost like Push better than Clasm vs Affinity (thanks to the ability to snipe manlands and Plating targets at instant-speed), and being good at Vial decks only gets you so far when it's terrible vs Storm, Shadow, and every other non-wide strategy.
With the Modern field being as open as it is right now, I feel like running some collection of Push and Brutalities is far better than Clasms and Paths. I feel strongly that they're the cards that are the most flexible and least likely to be dead G1.
In fact, I'm noticing a ~50-55 card "core" appearing amongst the GB MDs, and a ~7-8 card "core" amongst SBs. I might actually modify the primer soon, assuming no major shifts occur (again).
Went 3-0-1 yesterday and split first with RG Tron.
Round 1: Burn 2-0
Round 2: Eldrazi Tron 2-0
Round 3: Burn 2-1
Round 4: Infect ID
Burn matches went very weird. Round 1 opponent wasn't a very seasoned player and I managed to land early Wurmcoils against him which sealed it up which was nice. Round 3 I manage to win G1 with a perfect hand, lost G2 badly, and win G3 off a mull to 5. He ran out of gas fast and my eggs helped me assemble Tron and jam two Wurmcoils. MVP of the night! G1 with Eldrazi Tron went back and forth with a Worldbreaker and Ugin on my side to Smashers and Endbringers on his. I get as much value as I can out of my field, and then I reset with O-Stone. After leaving him with no cards inland, I recur World Breaker for the win. G2 I thought I had surely lost: I take a mull to six and get my filtering started, while he lands Thought-Knot and starts beating me down. He gets me with a couple Ghost Quarter this game, yet I find myself with Tron, a Forest out, and two cards in hand against double Thought-Knot. My opponent attacks and promptly casts a Karn, deciding what to do. I have to bank on him not taking me off Tron, and surprisingly he chooses to have me exile a card. I draw into a Stirrings, which finds me the last Tower I need to cast Ulamog to take him off Tron and get rid of Karn. After uncapping and with a grim look on his face, he ships the turn, and promptly scoops his cards once I show him a top decked O-Stone.
I love RG Tron to death but I am of the mind to give GB a shot when I find myself the time to attend larger events, as I once did. When it comes to RG though, I have found my GDS and Affinity matchup to be very positive. I too was of the mind that E-Tron is an unfavorable matchup but I've been moving towards the center recently. Storm continues to be a burden, yet I have a solid win percentage in the SoCal area due to Wails, Relics, and just pure luck.
Did you use any red cards during any of your games? The perfect mana provided by Groves is nice, but if you didn't use any red cards during your matches, it's not exactly a ringing endorsement of Gr Tron in particular.
Has anyone tried the Hybrid lists with Temple and TKS? If so, is it better in your opinion than normal GB?
Was wondering the same thing, but the problem is we loose a lot of discard. Sure we are a bit faster etc. but is it worth loosing all the great tools that black gives us? (well we can still run surgical extraction- but dunno if it is enough)
For me TKS is similar to Collective Brutality - its a discard effect and vs burn its essentially gain a wall vs their creatures or a clock.
So, most of the time you'd prefer the 4/4 with this effect over the sorcery. This is in theory. CV is surely more reliable t2, but after t2 TKS "should" be better.
Both Decks showed some reliability and efforts.
But I usually play Green/Red, so the comparison to GB is missing to me right now. The Eldrazi Hybrid has a lot more variance, though it is more difficult for your opponent to predict what he'll face each game. I liked those refreshing new aspects for sure.
For now, I am testing a version with Primeval Titan and Through the Breach.
Storm, Ad Nauseam and any "non-creature" based combo is tough. Usually Witchbane Orb, Orbs of Warding and gravehate like Relic are your way to go in my experience.
Against stuff like GW Counters i found Warping Wail to do some work to shut down the combo...
In general fast, non-interactive combo that can win T3 on the play is horrible for Tron to play against. It's just something you have to live with i guess...
Has anyone played against the Humans deck? Is the matchup good? Bad? Equal?
I've played against it a bit. It's not terrible, but it's not good either. The deck really thrives on the back of several strong hatebears (Thalias, Meddling Mage, Freebooter) backed by strong threats (Lieutenant, Champion). You need 2-3 fast interactive spells (Push, CB, Clasm, etc), or you just get run over. If you have fast interaction you generally win (and if you don't, you lose). If you have 6-8 of those spells, the MU's slightly above average, otherwise it's kind of bad.
If you live to O-Stone/Ugin, you generally win on the spot (especially the latter). The games kind of shape around whose draws are more efficient.
2x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Sanctum of Ugin
4x Urza's Mine
4x Urza's Power Plant
4x Urza's Tower
Planeswalker (6)
4x Karn Liberated
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Artifact (17)
4x Chromatic Sphere
4x Chromatic Star
4x Expedition Map
3x Oblivion Stone
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1x World Breaker
3x Wurmcoil Engine
Instant (3)
3x Lightning Bolt
Sorcery (8)
4x Ancient Stirrings
4x Sylvan Scrying
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Kozilek's Return
3x Nature's Claim
2x Thought-Knot Seer
2x Thragtusk
3x Warping Wail
Other than Bolts replacing Pyroclasm, MB is same as the list I ran in GP São Paulo.
SB has one experiment: K-Return. Being able to hit it with Stirring is amazing, but I always felt it was a turn too late. I want to test if it works better when you also have Bolt to slow down aggro. If it doesn't work I'll just swap back Pyroclasm in these slots.
Other than that, not completely set on the SB, might cut a few cards to make room for Pithing Needle or Sorcerous Spyglass. Any other suggestions?
That's what I want to find out.
Part of the idea of testing this came from playing around with GB Tron... I was surprised about how much work the -2/-2 mode of Brutality did, and it made me realize there aren't that many aggro matchups nowadays where you can/need to kill multiple creatures T2, and that I was rather satisfied most of the time with single-target removal.
I also liked how Brutality was never "dead", and while Bolt is not as flexible it still can hit manlands, planeswalkers, x/3 creatures, plus has lower CMC and instant speed. Worst-case it can also go to the face, though this is only marginally useful for us.
Another thing I noticed while playtesting GB is that I really missed the perfect manabase from the GR version, plus the nice bonus Groves have of disrupting Shadow's gameplay.
All thinks combined, I kept thinking a build like this was worth testing, and seeing that list at SCG made me decide to go through with it.
Maybe.
They have very different roles -> K-Return is mostly there to make Affinity more reasonable, while EE is a general-use tool that can kill Chalice and stall Shadow while still being useful in a bunch of different matchups.
It's possible I can cut some of these, maybe adding a couple Ancient Grudges to improve Affinity while solving Chalice? Not entirely sure this is a better setup, though, and I'd accept some suggestions for SB configuration if you guys have it.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=116685
Isn't it better to just add more Relics/Warping Wail/Removal?
I prefer to elevate 40-60 MUs like Burn to atleast 50-50 with cards that do some work in other MUs aswell. Thragtusk for example is good against burn but also does a good job at replacing Wurmcoil against Path decks and is a value blocker against DS.
I know relic and Orbs/WOrb do work against scapeshift etc. aswell but i think you get my point.
Improve your close MUs and just hope you dodge the near unwinnable ones. That's my tactic atleast
BRGJundGRB
GCTronCG
WBRMardu PyromancerRBW
Legacy:
GElvesG
IMO Tron is in a okay-bad spot at the moment. Storm is on the rise which is a horrible MU for us, Eldrazi Tron is not a really good MU either. If the meta shifts towards more Merfolk and 5C Humans after the recent SCG Tournament i can see Tron getting stronger again.
I think you shouldn't look for what is "the best deck" but what is the deck you would enjoy playing the most. Gx Tron has seen better days but i still love my old fashioned GR list and i love playing it. Eldrazi Tron for instance is currently a bit stronger than Gx Tron IMO but i tested it and i didn't feel it. It was no "real" Tron (If that makes any sense...)
Proxy up the decks, play around a bit and then decide on what is most fun. All 3 decks are viable
BRGJundGRB
GCTronCG
WBRMardu PyromancerRBW
Legacy:
GElvesG
All our 1-Mana spells (8 Eggs, 4 Stirrings, Removal suite of your choice) are pretty essential for our deck. Burn can always just Revelry your chalice or empty their hand fast enough to get around it.
The Eggs and Stirrings have their name as "the engine" for a reason. The redraws are incredibly potent and Stirrings is arguably the best cantrip in Modern.
Eldrazi Tron is another story as they do not play Eggs and Stirrings. They only play Expedition Map and Basilisk's Collar as 1 Mana spells.
BRGJundGRB
GCTronCG
WBRMardu PyromancerRBW
Legacy:
GElvesG
I always felt this matchup to be relatively close. They either need to lock us out with a Chalice (which is not always possible, since sometimes we only need the first CMC1 card to finish the setup), or have a fast hand with QG + early TKS/Smasher to kill us before we start dropping bombs.
Almost all of our payoff cards are really bad news for them.
I feel like red might potentially be in a better place than it has been thanks to the resurgence of Vial decks (5c Humans, UG Folk), but I actually almost like Push better than Clasm vs Affinity (thanks to the ability to snipe manlands and Plating targets at instant-speed), and being good at Vial decks only gets you so far when it's terrible vs Storm, Shadow, and every other non-wide strategy.
With the Modern field being as open as it is right now, I feel like running some collection of Push and Brutalities is far better than Clasms and Paths. I feel strongly that they're the cards that are the most flexible and least likely to be dead G1.
In fact, I'm noticing a ~50-55 card "core" appearing amongst the GB MDs, and a ~7-8 card "core" amongst SBs. I might actually modify the primer soon, assuming no major shifts occur (again).
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/organized-play/grand-prix-updates-2018-promos-schedules-and-day-two-cut-2017-10-26
Very happy that São Paulo will be Modern again. I'll try to improve from the Top 64 last one.
so what are you running lately?
Has anyone tried the Hybrid lists with Temple and TKS? If so, is it better in your opinion than normal GB?
For me TKS is similar to Collective Brutality - its a discard effect and vs burn its essentially gain a wall vs their creatures or a clock.
So, most of the time you'd prefer the 4/4 with this effect over the sorcery. This is in theory. CV is surely more reliable t2, but after t2 TKS "should" be better.
12 Urza Lands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sanctum of Ugin
1 Forest
[ENGINE]
8 Chromatic Eggs
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Pyroclasm
3 Oblivion Stone
[CREATURES]
1 Walking Ballista
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 World Breaker
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
[PLANESWALKERS]
4 Karn Liberated
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Warping Wail
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Autumn's Veil
1 Boil
1 Thragtusk
This is what I played last as my GR Tron Deck on tournaments.
Here my hybrid list:
12 Urza Lands
3 Groves of the Burnwillows
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Sanctum of Ugin
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Forest
[ENGINE]
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Expedition Map
3 Talisman of Impulse
4 Kozilek's Return
1 Oblivion Stone
1 All Is Dust
[CREATURES]
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 World Breaker
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
[PLANESWALKERS]
2 Karn Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Orbs of Warding
2 Boil
3 Warping Wail
3 Relic of Progenitus
Both Decks showed some reliability and efforts.
But I usually play Green/Red, so the comparison to GB is missing to me right now. The Eldrazi Hybrid has a lot more variance, though it is more difficult for your opponent to predict what he'll face each game. I liked those refreshing new aspects for sure.
For now, I am testing a version with Primeval Titan and Through the Breach.
12 Urza Lands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Sanctum of Ugin
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
[ENGINE]
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Chromatic Sphere
2 Chromatic Star
1 Terrarion
4 Expedition Map
1 Sylvan Scrying
3 Talisman of Impulse
3 Through the Breach
1 Planar Bridge
3 Kozilek's Return
3 Oblivion Stone
[CREATURES]
2 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Primeval Titan
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
[PLANESWALKERS]
4 Karn Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Autumn's Veil
So far, this makes some really unfair and funny things. Needs surely more testing and fine adjustment.
Greetings!
Storm, Ad Nauseam and any "non-creature" based combo is tough. Usually Witchbane Orb, Orbs of Warding and gravehate like Relic are your way to go in my experience.
Against stuff like GW Counters i found Warping Wail to do some work to shut down the combo...
In general fast, non-interactive combo that can win T3 on the play is horrible for Tron to play against. It's just something you have to live with i guess...
BRGJundGRB
GCTronCG
WBRMardu PyromancerRBW
Legacy:
GElvesG
If you live to O-Stone/Ugin, you generally win on the spot (especially the latter). The games kind of shape around whose draws are more efficient.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW