Hello! Played in the Modern Open on Saturday at GP Toronto over the weekend.
Wrote about my experiences on a new blog. https://fyogomrat.tumblr.com/
Don't want to keep spamming the forum with my Abzan Traverse list, especially if everyone is leaning more towards Confidant or straight BG builds at the moment. If you're interested in Abzan Traverse please check it out.
Thanks to everyone who helped me prepare my list for GP Toronto!
Shriekmaw did tons of work for me over the weekend. I've considered cutting it before, but then remember how versatile and on theme the card is in this deck. A removal spell with the creature card type helps you hit delirium early. Late game, you can hard cast it for removal and have a creature that can't reliably be blocked. I would never run more than one - but I was almost always happy to see it.
I played enough with the deck over the weekend to feel that I'm comfortable with 18 lands. Using Baubles, fetches, and Traverses to fix your draws helps you develop your board. The liberal amount of Death and Taxes decks and other decks running Path to Exile at the moment also helps . However you feel - its best to keep the land count low in this deck!
Hello! Played in the Modern Open on Saturday at GP Toronto over the weekend.
Wrote about my experiences on a new blog. https://fyogomrat.tumblr.com/
Don't want to keep spamming the forum with my Abzan Traverse list, especially if everyone is leaning more towards Confidant or straight BG builds at the moment. If you're interested in Abzan Traverse please check it out.
Thanks to everyone who helped me prepare my list for GP Toronto!
I really enjoyed this write up and your work on the Traverse list. I'll be following along. Sorry you didn't have a lot of luck in Toronto, but it's a fun city and I'm sure it was a great event. I came to the same conclusion on Rallier after being very high on him as a concept. In testing he doesn't shake out. I'm going to run a non-traverse list for a while to see how that goes, but I still think the archetype has a lot of things going for it. If graveyard hate loses its popularity anytime soon I'm going right back to Traverse.
One thing I reacted to was his proposal of Murderous Cut alongside Dark Confidant. Seems a bit risky IMO but I haven´t tried it myself so I can´t really say.
I personally like the look of his GB-focused list from GP Vegas more than the Abzan list he ends the article with, anyone else?
I love whenever Reid Duke speaks on Abzan - though I'm not sure if he's coming to any new conclusions here. I agree - his old list from GP Vegas looks great. I see what he's getting at regarding path - but Mirran Crusader and Chameleon Colossus are out there right now. You could reasonably sub in 2xPaths where he is running Victim of Night.
Though I've been stuck on Traverse for a while - I think I'd like to give this version a shot.
I used to run Merfolk, and people always wanted to splash UW to play Path in the main and Stony Silence in the side. I would argue until I was hoarse that it was a terrible strategy because Path is actively bad in Merfolk. It runs completely counter to one of your main wincons in Spreading Seas. So, I get where Reid is coming from. Far too many people think Path is free, but it's a very real drawback. If you've ever faced down a T1 Noble Hierarch/Birds of Paradise with only a Path in hand back in the day, you know what a crummy feeling that is.
I think Path is less bad in GBx, but still not great. The effect is more subtle, but GBx thrives by punishing its opponents' bad draws/mulligans, and Path helps smooth out their mana and gets them back on even footing, which you do not want to do. With Grixis Shadow being the consensus best deck, it seems crazy to not run path. But, the meta is adapting. Death's Shadow is losing meta share and Affinity/Burn/Gifts Storm are everywhere. Those decks don't require Path to beat. I'm not sure what the answer is. Maybe Path belongs main deck. Maybe it belongs in the sideboard. Maybe it doesn't belong at all. idk
I'm going to put together a GB-forward deck like Reid's for some PPTQs this weekend. The only thing I'm really not into is the 4 Treetop Villages. I think he's definitely trying to build a Jund style Abzan list, and is just subbing out Villages for Raging Ravines because they're the most efficient GB land. That said, 4 ETB Tapped lands is 1 too many for me. I either want to swap one out for a Concealed Courtyard to give me one more white source as a hedge, or just cut it and go to 22 lands. With 4 Bobs, 3 Flayer, 2 Mishra's and a Spellbomb in the main, I feel like this list should run fine on 22 lands. Could let us add a Collective to the main, or another kill-all spell like Go for the Throat.
I've been bouncing between Jund and Abzan for the last couple of weeks, and the conclusion I've come to is that I wish I could run both Terminate and Lingering Souls in the same deck, and I'm 100% Terminate > Path because of the issue Reid speaks to. I'm a little concerned about Murderous Cut alongside Dark Confidant, but I like what his list is aiming for and at one point we did play Confidant alongside Tasigur in Jund.
If Lingering Souls is what's drawing Reid to Abzan, I wonder if a Jund list with 2 main deck Bitterblossom, or more Pia and Kiran Nalaar, might be a way to try to get the best of both worlds.
Agree about the 4 Treetops - seems excessive. Going to try this list based on Reid's tonight at my local. Dropped to 22 lands, cut 2 Treetop Villages and brought in a Shambling Vent. Also cut the Twilight Mires for 2 more Blooming Marsh.
I think I'm on board with reducing the number of Paths - Cutting it to two main deck and 1 in the board. I don't own a 4th Liliana of the Veil at the moment, so subbing in The Last Hope for now. Wouldn't mind having a Tireless Tracker in there somewhere as well, might squeeze it in.
I made the same changes to the mana base in terms of Blooming Marsh > Twilight Mire, but still have the three Treetops. I like the one-of Shambling Vent as another white mana source and incidental lifegain, with the obvious drawback that he can't be activated without another white mana source on board. Going to stick to no Path main for playtesting tomorrow night, with two Victim of Night and one Go for the Throat in the main over your two path and one Collective Brutality.
Good luck! Let us know how it goes.
EDIT: Re: Tireless Tracker. I was also looking to make room for a single Tireless Tracker in the SB, but after some more thought I'm not sure it really solves any problem matchups for us and I would rather jam my SB full of cards that do.
I've been bouncing between Jund and Abzan for the last couple of weeks, and the conclusion I've come to is that I wish I could run both Terminate and Lingering Souls in the same deck, and I'm 100% Terminate > Path because of the issue Reid speaks to.
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Honestly, Path is necessary. In a world with Turn 2 Thought-Knot Seers and Tasigur, the Golden Fangs on the play, it kind of makes it hard to justify replacing it with Murderous Cut. I play 4 Paths mainboard, and I still lost to BOTH Mirran Crusader and Chameleon Colossus at the last PPTQ on Sunday. People are exploiting the overpresence of Fatal Push and Grixis so it best not to fall into the trap.
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What are your guys thoughts on Noble Hierarch and Dark Confidant?
Of all the lists I've looked up, it seems most lists are split and there's no real consensus on running or not running Confidant/Noble (either together or not)
What's the general rule of thumb here? Is there a specific instance where I want either of those cards? And when would I not want them?
I've been bouncing between Jund and Abzan for the last couple of weeks, and the conclusion I've come to is that I wish I could run both Terminate and Lingering Souls in the same deck, and I'm 100% Terminate > Path because of the issue Reid speaks to. I'm a little concerned about Murderous Cut alongside Dark Confidant, but I like what his list is aiming for and at one point we did play Confidant alongside Tasigur in Jund.
If Lingering Souls is what's drawing Reid to Abzan, I wonder if a Jund list with 2 main deck Bitterblossom, or more Pia and Kiran Nalaar, might be a way to try to get the best of both worlds.
I've been playing three copies of Bitterblossom in Rock. It's not been long enough to give much of a report plus I don't play often and I don't always play the same deck. Still, the tokens have done work sometimes and other times I side BB out.
Another 3-0 tonight at the lgs, though two of my matches were against suboptimal/budget lists,and the third was an odd build of grixis control. I did pick up a Gaddock Teeg in case I decide to splash white in the sb for him and kataki.
While lingering souls is a great magic card, I haven't really missed it much outside of the Affinity matchup. Bob, Tireless Tracker, and Traverse do a great job of grinding opponents out of the game on their own. Honestly when I ran abzan I felt like I was boarding them out a lot against linear decks like burn, storm, and Valakut since they are such a slow clock vs the mana cost. The two trackers I run mb have been over performing for me, as they snowball so quickly if unanswered. Playing one t4 or later with a land in hand is a guaranteed 2+ for 1 as well.
Look at the card. Now back to Jace. Now back to that card, now back to Jace! Sadly, it isn't Jace, but if it stopped being a junk rare and became relevant, it could act like it's Jace. Crack some Worldwake. What do you have? You have a Jace, the card you wish this card could be like. Look again. THE CARD IS NOW A $75 BILL. Anything possible when you play Magic with Jace and not junk rares. This is probably spam.
Does all this mean classic abzan (non-hierarch build) is the weakest build right now? There is very few discussion about that particular build but i'm not quite sure if it's because of the lack of top 8 results or if it just pales in comparison to BG rock, Traverse Abzan, etc.
Reid's choices are interesting and the abzan build would crush shadow and similar creature decks. I just can't help wonder how it answers tron/bant-drazi as souls helps clog the board and win games in these matchups. Pathless abzan just doesn't feel versatile enough for an open meta.
The treetop village argument is something to consider to speed up the clock that jund just does better. @pppprk's 2 treetop/1 vent seems like a reasonable compromise i'd try at the next FNM.
path seems super relevant if your meta has a lot of edrazi/tron. We're pretty boned by wurmcoil engine or any of the 5 mana eldrazi, especially when they come down on t3 after a t2 tks takes out a relevant removal spell.
I think the hierarch build is decent, but is a bit more meta dependent, and also, how good is a t2 liliana. I think it's reasonable to say that a t1 thoughtsieze into a t2 goyf or bob, can be more effective than a t2 liliana.
Few points against hierarch:
Lots of removal for small creatures (fatal push, bolt, kcommand, abrupt decay), and remember, bolt the bord.
Doesn't tap for black (this is speculation, would need to crunch numbers)
Abzan is pretty loaded up at the 1 drop and taking a high threat level card is a huge advantage for the deck.
What would you say the best variant is to bring in an open meta right now? My LGS runs big tournies with a healthy mix of archetypes but the top 3 decks are drazi (both bant and tron), Death's Shadow, and Collected Company.
I'm not a fan of the Noble version of Abzan personally. She clogs up the one drop spot, she only feels "good" on turn one(and kind of turn 2), and with the land count being lower (22) it makes hands awkward when we don't have her or she's removed right away. I can't tell you how many times I've kept a two land/1 Noble hand and end up with uncastable Lili's and Souls. I prefer running Bob's like Jund.
Initially I liked Reid's approach of basically going BGw but Path is a necessary evil. Push doesn't hit everything, we need a no questions asked answer to bigger threats like Eldrazi, Delve creatures, Wurmcoil, etc and that's what Path does for us at just 1cmc.
I'm going to play a Bob list with Path's and see how it goes, my local meta is random so we'll see what happens.
I've been bouncing between Jund and Abzan for the last couple of weeks, and the conclusion I've come to is that I wish I could run both Terminate and Lingering Souls in the same deck, and I'm 100% Terminate > Path because of the issue Reid speaks to.
That conclusion is probably the reason why the BRGw Death's Shadow exist(ed) and why people tried to splash white in traditional Jund since Innistrad. Neither seems to have worked out in the long term.
R1 - Three games vs UW Control. Must admit, unanswered Dark Confidant does wonders in this matchup and obviously resolving a Liliana is back breaking for them. G3 we had 5 minutes left and my opponent wanted the win - I was on two lands and had threats but he Supreme Verdict'd me two turns in a row to keep on on two lands and beat me down with a Gideon Jura while I had two Maelstrom Pulse in hand.
R2 - A UW Monument deck. I think this is pretty much the list. Took me by surprise for sure. Took me down g1 with small flying creatures after a few bad Dark Confidant flips. G2 I was digging for Flaying Tendrils but he managed to fill the board quickly and flip Westvale Abbey!!! Couldn't find either of my Path to Exiles in time. Thanks a lot Reid Duke!!!
R3 - Against Affinity - lost g1 but found Stony Silence in opening hand g2 and g3 and that was that.
Observations: That Reid Duke Article yesterday was kind of about how good Lingering Souls is - and although his old GP Vegas deck looks cool and consistent - you want Lingering Souls in this deck!! I boarded it in every game. Agreeing with the post above - Path to Exile is necessary. Could have potentially saved me in both matches I lost.
I liked jamming this list this week, but I think I'm still more comfortable with the Traverse version. Confidant is powerful - but I'm not sure if I like gambling with my life total.
Wrote about my experiences on a new blog. https://fyogomrat.tumblr.com/
Don't want to keep spamming the forum with my Abzan Traverse list, especially if everyone is leaning more towards Confidant or straight BG builds at the moment. If you're interested in Abzan Traverse please check it out.
Thanks to everyone who helped me prepare my list for GP Toronto!
Do you feel that Shriekmaw was worth the inclusion?
I played enough with the deck over the weekend to feel that I'm comfortable with 18 lands. Using Baubles, fetches, and Traverses to fix your draws helps you develop your board. The liberal amount of Death and Taxes decks and other decks running Path to Exile at the moment also helps . However you feel - its best to keep the land count low in this deck!
I really enjoyed this write up and your work on the Traverse list. I'll be following along. Sorry you didn't have a lot of luck in Toronto, but it's a fun city and I'm sure it was a great event. I came to the same conclusion on Rallier after being very high on him as a concept. In testing he doesn't shake out. I'm going to run a non-traverse list for a while to see how that goes, but I still think the archetype has a lot of things going for it. If graveyard hate loses its popularity anytime soon I'm going right back to Traverse.
I personally like the look of his GB-focused list from GP Vegas more than the Abzan list he ends the article with, anyone else?
I love whenever Reid Duke speaks on Abzan - though I'm not sure if he's coming to any new conclusions here. I agree - his old list from GP Vegas looks great. I see what he's getting at regarding path - but Mirran Crusader and Chameleon Colossus are out there right now. You could reasonably sub in 2xPaths where he is running Victim of Night.
Though I've been stuck on Traverse for a while - I think I'd like to give this version a shot.
I think Path is less bad in GBx, but still not great. The effect is more subtle, but GBx thrives by punishing its opponents' bad draws/mulligans, and Path helps smooth out their mana and gets them back on even footing, which you do not want to do. With Grixis Shadow being the consensus best deck, it seems crazy to not run path. But, the meta is adapting. Death's Shadow is losing meta share and Affinity/Burn/Gifts Storm are everywhere. Those decks don't require Path to beat. I'm not sure what the answer is. Maybe Path belongs main deck. Maybe it belongs in the sideboard. Maybe it doesn't belong at all. idk
I'm going to put together a GB-forward deck like Reid's for some PPTQs this weekend. The only thing I'm really not into is the 4 Treetop Villages. I think he's definitely trying to build a Jund style Abzan list, and is just subbing out Villages for Raging Ravines because they're the most efficient GB land. That said, 4 ETB Tapped lands is 1 too many for me. I either want to swap one out for a Concealed Courtyard to give me one more white source as a hedge, or just cut it and go to 22 lands. With 4 Bobs, 3 Flayer, 2 Mishra's and a Spellbomb in the main, I feel like this list should run fine on 22 lands. Could let us add a Collective to the main, or another kill-all spell like Go for the Throat.
If Lingering Souls is what's drawing Reid to Abzan, I wonder if a Jund list with 2 main deck Bitterblossom, or more Pia and Kiran Nalaar, might be a way to try to get the best of both worlds.
I think I'm on board with reducing the number of Paths - Cutting it to two main deck and 1 in the board. I don't own a 4th Liliana of the Veil at the moment, so subbing in The Last Hope for now. Wouldn't mind having a Tireless Tracker in there somewhere as well, might squeeze it in.
2 Treetop Village
1 Shambling Vent
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Forest
2 Swamp
Creatures 14
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Grim Flayer
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Spells 17
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
4 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
2 Maelstrom Pulse
Artifacts 3
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Mishra's Bauble
3 Stony Silence
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Collective Brutality
3 Lingering Souls
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Path to Exile
I made the same changes to the mana base in terms of Blooming Marsh > Twilight Mire, but still have the three Treetops. I like the one-of Shambling Vent as another white mana source and incidental lifegain, with the obvious drawback that he can't be activated without another white mana source on board. Going to stick to no Path main for playtesting tomorrow night, with two Victim of Night and one Go for the Throat in the main over your two path and one Collective Brutality.
Good luck! Let us know how it goes.
EDIT: Re: Tireless Tracker. I was also looking to make room for a single Tireless Tracker in the SB, but after some more thought I'm not sure it really solves any problem matchups for us and I would rather jam my SB full of cards that do.
Honestly, Path is necessary. In a world with Turn 2 Thought-Knot Seers and Tasigur, the Golden Fangs on the play, it kind of makes it hard to justify replacing it with Murderous Cut. I play 4 Paths mainboard, and I still lost to BOTH Mirran Crusader and Chameleon Colossus at the last PPTQ on Sunday. People are exploiting the overpresence of Fatal Push and Grixis so it best not to fall into the trap.
Of all the lists I've looked up, it seems most lists are split and there's no real consensus on running or not running Confidant/Noble (either together or not)
What's the general rule of thumb here? Is there a specific instance where I want either of those cards? And when would I not want them?
Thanks!
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
I've been playing three copies of Bitterblossom in Rock. It's not been long enough to give much of a report plus I don't play often and I don't always play the same deck. Still, the tokens have done work sometimes and other times I side BB out.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
While lingering souls is a great magic card, I haven't really missed it much outside of the Affinity matchup. Bob, Tireless Tracker, and Traverse do a great job of grinding opponents out of the game on their own. Honestly when I ran abzan I felt like I was boarding them out a lot against linear decks like burn, storm, and Valakut since they are such a slow clock vs the mana cost. The two trackers I run mb have been over performing for me, as they snowball so quickly if unanswered. Playing one t4 or later with a land in hand is a guaranteed 2+ for 1 as well.
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UWUWxUW
Reid's choices are interesting and the abzan build would crush shadow and similar creature decks. I just can't help wonder how it answers tron/bant-drazi as souls helps clog the board and win games in these matchups. Pathless abzan just doesn't feel versatile enough for an open meta.
The treetop village argument is something to consider to speed up the clock that jund just does better. @pppprk's 2 treetop/1 vent seems like a reasonable compromise i'd try at the next FNM.
I think the hierarch build is decent, but is a bit more meta dependent, and also, how good is a t2 liliana. I think it's reasonable to say that a t1 thoughtsieze into a t2 goyf or bob, can be more effective than a t2 liliana.
Few points against hierarch:
Lots of removal for small creatures (fatal push, bolt, kcommand, abrupt decay), and remember, bolt the bord.
Doesn't tap for black (this is speculation, would need to crunch numbers)
Abzan is pretty loaded up at the 1 drop and taking a high threat level card is a huge advantage for the deck.
Initially I liked Reid's approach of basically going BGw but Path is a necessary evil. Push doesn't hit everything, we need a no questions asked answer to bigger threats like Eldrazi, Delve creatures, Wurmcoil, etc and that's what Path does for us at just 1cmc.
I'm going to play a Bob list with Path's and see how it goes, my local meta is random so we'll see what happens.
BG/x BG
That conclusion is probably the reason why the BRGw Death's Shadow exist(ed) and why people tried to splash white in traditional Jund since Innistrad. Neither seems to have worked out in the long term.
Went 1-2 with this list unfortunately!!
R1 - Three games vs UW Control. Must admit, unanswered Dark Confidant does wonders in this matchup and obviously resolving a Liliana is back breaking for them. G3 we had 5 minutes left and my opponent wanted the win - I was on two lands and had threats but he Supreme Verdict'd me two turns in a row to keep on on two lands and beat me down with a Gideon Jura while I had two Maelstrom Pulse in hand.
R2 - A UW Monument deck. I think this is pretty much the list. Took me by surprise for sure. Took me down g1 with small flying creatures after a few bad Dark Confidant flips. G2 I was digging for Flaying Tendrils but he managed to fill the board quickly and flip Westvale Abbey!!! Couldn't find either of my Path to Exiles in time. Thanks a lot Reid Duke!!!
R3 - Against Affinity - lost g1 but found Stony Silence in opening hand g2 and g3 and that was that.
Observations: That Reid Duke Article yesterday was kind of about how good Lingering Souls is - and although his old GP Vegas deck looks cool and consistent - you want Lingering Souls in this deck!! I boarded it in every game. Agreeing with the post above - Path to Exile is necessary. Could have potentially saved me in both matches I lost.
I liked jamming this list this week, but I think I'm still more comfortable with the Traverse version. Confidant is powerful - but I'm not sure if I like gambling with my life total.
If the soellbombs are just average you can just cycle them to grow your goyf and get delirium and cantrip