You can certainly try it, but I personally am a fan of 8 discard spells in that list. I can see going down to 3 Oozes, but I heard that the 4 oozes should be decent, for which reason I want to try the 4. Don't know yet if I want to change that afterwards.
If you include Flayer, I don't think he is gonna shine actually.
I would really like to hear how 4x Ooze performs because I have hard time believing that it's actually good. Ooze is a card that becomes worse in multiples and you don't want more than one because you will have hard time getting value out of the two considering how man hungry creature it is. With playing all 4 drawing redundant copies will be more likely.
The thing is, if you have multiples, one is more likely to stick.
Grinded through ~10 leagues over the last few days refining the idea of Abzan + Field of Ruin. Lost some games to my own manabase, lost some games due to having the wrong threat suite/answer suite. Tried a number of adjustments, and I think the following list plays well enough that I would encourage you all to try it. Two 4-1's so far with this 75:
The 2 Field of Ruin finds a ton of utility in a variety of matchups, and it really makes a noticeable impact in matches like Affinity where manlands / specific utility lands play an important role.
Be careful about fetching and sequencing your lands, especially taking into account what your next draw could be! This is harder than in standard Abzan. I'm happy to discuss the mana base and the choices therein if anyone is interested. It was an interesting and intricate puzzle to work out; being mana screwed in a variety of ways really teaches you which lands are essential and which lands are not, and this learning process led to some unexpected conclusions (e.g. 0 Blooming Marsh, Hissing Quagmire over Stirring Wildwood, singleton Twilight Mire).
I know the knee jerk reaction to this list is going to be to cut the singleton Path, but believe me, you need it.
I am still on at least 3 FoR in any GBx deck right now. The card is extremely good. I actually think that Rock is probably the best GBx deck atm, given the presence of Tron. If you want to compete at the PT, you can't loose to that deck.
My Abzan build would be, which I call Souls Rock (kinda like that name):
This manabase should be as optimal as possible while not giving up too much on Quagmire and FoR: 19 black sources, 16 green sources and 10 white sources.
You know what I wish Abzan had? A black version of Grim Lavamancer, I've started to get to the point in Jund where I don't feel like I really need boardwipes. Between Lava and Last Hope, 1 for 1's on creature decks feels good. I really love Last Hope though, I think this is my favorite new BGx card in 2017.
Delver, I know you posted it---but there's so many builds by you currently in the past few pages I'm having a hard time finding it.
I have a Classic this weekend, could you share the current rock list you think is good now? I'd like to test it a little more.
I am still on at least 3 FoR in any GBx deck right now. The card is extremely good. I actually think that Rock is probably the best GBx deck atm, given the presence of Tron. If you want to compete at the PT, you can't loose to that deck.
This manabase should be as optimal as possible while not giving up too much on Quagmire and FoR: 19 black sources, 16 green sources and 10 white sources.
I like this configuration. Did you consider a Plains or 1 Shambling Vent for 1 Hissing Quagmire?
Nope not at all. But you can surely replace one Quagmire with 1 Shambling Vent. I think that Quagmire is really good vs. DS and E-Tron though. Thats why I start with 3 copies.
You know what I wish Abzan had? A black version of Grim Lavamancer, I've started to get to the point in Jund where I don't feel like I really need boardwipes. Between Lava and Last Hope, 1 for 1's on creature decks feels good. I really love Last Hope though, I think this is my favorite new BGx card in 2017.
Delver, I know you posted it---but there's so many builds by you currently in the past few pages I'm having a hard time finding it.
I have a Classic this weekend, could you share the current rock list you think is good now? I'd like to test it a little more.
Which build do you want?^^
I know I have lots of different ideas between Rock, Abzan and Souls Rock, how I call it, apologies if thats confusing, but I really love messing around with this atm.
Normally the Thrun would be a Creeping Corrosion, but I personally want that extra bomb against Control, because honestly thats the matchup I fear the most with this list. I am fine with Affinity anyway. Lantern might be an argument as well though.
Tron should be great* with 4 FoR, 4 Fulminator and 2 Surgicals. Basically its about drawing the surgical there and you can shut them off Tron.
E-Tron should be absurd, with 4 LoTV, 2 Pulse, 4 Quagmire and Damnation in the side alongside LD.
Control is the only weak point.
*With great I mean "beatable" of course, which is great from our GBx perspective
I am still on at least 3 FoR in any GBx deck right now. The card is extremely good. I actually think that Rock is probably the best GBx deck atm, given the presence of Tron. If you want to compete at the PT, you can't loose to that deck.
My Abzan build would be, which I call Souls Rock (kinda like that name):
This manabase should be as optimal as possible while not giving up too much on Quagmire and FoR: 19 black sources, 16 green sources and 10 white sources.
I would like to keep a 3rd Thoughtseize...what is first to cut? 1 Tireless Tracker?
The decklist doesn't seem capablee of beating burn.
4x Thoughtseize, 4x Bobs, and only 2x CB's in the sideboard with nothing great to bring in.
This seems like a dangerous deck to run, I've almost never played an IQ or PPTQ where I didn't see a ton of burn.
You've said it before already, you are repeating yourself. And I also already said that the only difference are 2 TS and thats about it compared to Abzan/Jund lists. You can run 3 CBs in your SB if you want. IDK how you approach the burn matchup, but you don't cast any TS or Bobs ever here. This manabase can potentially deal 0 dmg to yourself, which is way better than any Jund/Abzan manabase. You got 4 Ooze also to make up with that. I really don't think Burn is that bad of a matchup. If you fear Burn so much, then why not just play a Finks over the 4th Ooze main?
Don't know what your problem is with this list, its highly customizable, nothing is set in stone.
You guys have no problem with manabse due to 4x FoR? Manabase is causing me issues and I've lost several games because I was either screwed or draw too many FoR when I need color mana. Perhaps it's just me being unlucky which I am but I can't make this Rock deck to work as I want.
Yeah, for me it has been consistant, but it also depends against which decks you were playing. What did you face?
What are your thoughts moving the Liliana, last hope from the main to the side and move 1 CB from the side to main. Seems much more flexible (I run 3 CB side atm)
What are your thoughts moving the Liliana, last hope from the main to the side and move 1 CB from the side to main. Seems much more flexible (I run 3 CB side atm)
No definitely not a fan. Liliana, the Last Hope is one of the biggest reasons to play GBx anyway right now. She is truly amazing and I would never not play a copy maindeck right now.
If you include Flayer, I don't think he is gonna shine actually.
The thing is, if you have multiples, one is more likely to stick.
2 Forest
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hissing Quagmire
4 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Shambling Vent
2 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
4 Lingering Souls
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Fatal Push
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Path to Exile
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
1 Flaying Tendrils
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Stony Silence
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
The 2 Field of Ruin finds a ton of utility in a variety of matchups, and it really makes a noticeable impact in matches like Affinity where manlands / specific utility lands play an important role.
Be careful about fetching and sequencing your lands, especially taking into account what your next draw could be! This is harder than in standard Abzan. I'm happy to discuss the mana base and the choices therein if anyone is interested. It was an interesting and intricate puzzle to work out; being mana screwed in a variety of ways really teaches you which lands are essential and which lands are not, and this learning process led to some unexpected conclusions (e.g. 0 Blooming Marsh, Hissing Quagmire over Stirring Wildwood, singleton Twilight Mire).
I know the knee jerk reaction to this list is going to be to cut the singleton Path, but believe me, you need it.
My Abzan build would be, which I call Souls Rock (kinda like that name):
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
4 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Field of Ruins
2 Blooming Marsh
3 Hissing Quagmire
Creatures [13]
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tireless Tracker
4 Fatal Push
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dismember
3 Lingering Souls
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the last Hope
4 Fulminator Mage
3 Collective Brutality
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Damnation
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Flaying Tendrils
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
This manabase should be as optimal as possible while not giving up too much on Quagmire and FoR: 19 black sources, 16 green sources and 10 white sources.
I'm having a hard time getting behind a Rock Build. Maybe you guys are right though.
Delver, I know you posted it---but there's so many builds by you currently in the past few pages I'm having a hard time finding it.
I have a Classic this weekend, could you share the current rock list you think is good now? I'd like to test it a little more.
I like this configuration. Did you consider a Plains or 1 Shambling Vent for 1 Hissing Quagmire?
Which build do you want?^^
I know I have lots of different ideas between Rock, Abzan and Souls Rock, how I call it, apologies if thats confusing, but I really love messing around with this atm.
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Field of Ruin
4 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Twilight Mire
4 Hissing Quagmire
Creatures [14]
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tireless Tracker
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dismember
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Fulminator Mage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
1 Flaying Tendrils
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Normally the Thrun would be a Creeping Corrosion, but I personally want that extra bomb against Control, because honestly thats the matchup I fear the most with this list. I am fine with Affinity anyway. Lantern might be an argument as well though.
Tron should be great* with 4 FoR, 4 Fulminator and 2 Surgicals. Basically its about drawing the surgical there and you can shut them off Tron.
E-Tron should be absurd, with 4 LoTV, 2 Pulse, 4 Quagmire and Damnation in the side alongside LD.
Control is the only weak point.
*With great I mean "beatable" of course, which is great from our GBx perspective
I would like to keep a 3rd Thoughtseize...what is first to cut? 1 Tireless Tracker?
Isn't that too much life loss for the deck considering confidant?
4x Thoughtseize, 4x Bobs, and only 2x CB's in the sideboard with nothing great to bring in.
This seems like a dangerous deck to run, I've almost never played an IQ or PPTQ where I didn't see a ton of burn.
You've said it before already, you are repeating yourself. And I also already said that the only difference are 2 TS and thats about it compared to Abzan/Jund lists. You can run 3 CBs in your SB if you want. IDK how you approach the burn matchup, but you don't cast any TS or Bobs ever here. This manabase can potentially deal 0 dmg to yourself, which is way better than any Jund/Abzan manabase. You got 4 Ooze also to make up with that. I really don't think Burn is that bad of a matchup. If you fear Burn so much, then why not just play a Finks over the 4th Ooze main?
Don't know what your problem is with this list, its highly customizable, nothing is set in stone.
Yeah, for me it has been consistant, but it also depends against which decks you were playing. What did you face?
Generally no, Jund usually plays 4 Bobs as well as 3 TS sometimes. If you expect much Burn I would stick to 4/2 which is slightly better here.
You can also play the 4/2 split and play an extra copy of TS in the SB for example.
No definitely not a fan. Liliana, the Last Hope is one of the biggest reasons to play GBx anyway right now. She is truly amazing and I would never not play a copy maindeck right now.