I was considering a different/side win condition for a stax variant. After reading the primer, I'm still not entirely sure which end it would fit into better (Boros Bridge or RW Land denial). The idea was to splash black (maybe) and add Spiteful Visions (and Underworld Dreams if you're playing black). The deck would be similar to the aggressive version of Owling Mine {open in new tab} in that it would also include proactive damage spells like Sudden Impact and potentially Toil // Trouble. Adding in the 'damage per card in hand' cards may be too much to include, so if no black can be added then running only Spiteful Visions would be good. If one is efficient at getting rid of their board, a number of Psychosis Crawlers could be of use. In this version, if things such as Temple Bell or Howling Mine are not added in, Bottled Cloister would be just fine. You of course hope that they are at less life than you, in which case I would more strongly want black in the deck for both Underworld Dreams and Fate Unraveler.
I was considering a different/side win condition for a stax variant. After reading the primer, I'm still not entirely sure which end it would fit into better (Boros Bridge or RW Land denial). The idea was to splash black (maybe) and add Spiteful Visions (and Underworld Dreams if you're playing black). The deck would be similar to the aggressive version of Owling Mine {open in new tab} in that it would also include proactive damage spells like Sudden Impact and potentially Toil // Trouble. Adding in the 'damage per card in hand' cards may be too much to include, so if no black can be added then running only Spiteful Visions would be good. If one is efficient at getting rid of their board, a number of Psychosis Crawlers could be of use. In this version, if things such as Temple Bell or Howling Mine are not added in, Bottled Cloister would be just fine. You of course hope that they are at less life than you, in which case I would more strongly want black in the deck for both Underworld Dreams and Fate Unraveler.
Thoughts?
My initial thought, as a fan of owling mine, is how is it better than owling mine, which basically has the weakness that it loses to aggro most of the time.......my other is the deck sounds more UB than any other col combo.....
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Thinking of building this, but not sure which version would be better in my meta.
most
pod
twin affinity burn
bgx Jund dega midrange zoo
merfolk pyroascension
least
am I better off with ld or stax?
Not sure it matters that much with that meta. Both versions work pretty well vs pod, twin and affinity (I think landkill is slightly better vs pod). Bridge is slightly stronger vs burn, and in the absence of USA control or twin then perhaps the bridge version. If you have bridges and moons then bridge is fine. If you don't then the deck probably is not worth the investment by itself- it would be a lot of cash for bridges which are really only used in a couple of decks.
Both decks are quite weak to jund, and the key to sideboarding in both games is to keep the permanents varied.
Pyro ascension vs landkill is so one sided it is untrue.
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My initial thought, as a fan of owling mine, is how is it better than owling mine, which basically has the weakness that it loses to aggro most of the time.......my other is the deck sounds more UB than any other col combo.....
Well, Owling Mine isn't good right now. It's just not. It dies to aggro a lot, and it may do alright against control/slower decks, but that seems to be it. With some bleed effect in tax, they simply don't have the resources to do anything about it, and have no choice but to bleed. That's why I heavily prefer adding black since if I'm lower in life than they are when Spiteful visions come out then I'd lose, whereas if Underworld Dreams comes out then I have nothing to worry about.
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Please put the colors of your suggestion in mana symbols prior to your suggestion in color-wheel order. To do this, put any of W, U, B, R, G, and/or C, whatever is applicable, with the word 'mana' inside [square bracets] before and the word '/mana' inside [square bracets] after the mana.
Having no problem getting the lock (Bridge Version) but games went on too long and I either drew or they drew cards to get out (Pod). Could not get the win con out as I only had 2 Assemble the Legion
Has anyone considered a combo of Assemble the Legion and Purphoros, God of the Forge in relation to passive damage?
I've been getting most of the cards listed here and in the last week I started to test it.
Lands:
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Flagstone
1 Kher Keep
2 shock (I dont have 4 yet)
4 arid mesa
4 Clifftop Retreat
5 plains
3 mountain
2 boros signet
1 mind stone
Creatures:
3 Magus of the Tabernacle (love, life, rage)
4 Wall of Omens ( maybe -1 wall +1 Spellskite)
Spells:
4 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ghostly Prison (love, life, rage)
3 Assemble the Legion ( monster )
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Ajani Vengeant
1 Scepter of Dominance
1 Boom//Bust
1 Bottled Cloister (life, love)
1 War's Toll
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Chandra Nalaar
SB:
1x Anger of the Gods
3x Rest in Peace
3x Stony Silence
4x Wear / Tear
1x Oblivion Ring
3x Leyline of Sanctity
(I went back to play these days, I need to know my meta..but already realized that it's full of aggros and burns)
-------------------------------------------------
I feel that my list needs more win conditions.
I'll cut:
-1 Chandra Nalaar
-1 War's Toll
-1 Boom//Bust(it's good but i have only 1 copy )
and maybe -1 O-ring.
Well, the list is good against aggros (of course), I had no opportunity to play against controls yet.
I do not want creatures for win coin, because once my opponent know that he will always save a removal for it, since I have few creatures and Walls.
Assemble the Legion is perfect, now I'm thinking of playing with four lol.
So I'm thinking maybe a splash to get win coin of another color or Stormbreath Dragon(but still die for Doom Blade)
maybe 1 or 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant and/or Batterskull
I see a lot of people on Assemble the Legions, but I'm curious if anyone has tried Elspeth, Sun's Champion in its place? I have tried both and Elspeth proved faster and more problematic for my opponents. It goes without saying that three abilities is better than one. She also created complex decision trees for opponents as they feel obligated to deal with her, just the same as Ajani. Redundancy in threats is important.
We all should be playing four Ajani Vengeant in the first place. He plays perfectly into the slow, strangling board state we try to achieve. He also plays really, really well with Blood Moon by permanently locking down basic lands. I'm going to be the first to say that if you are on the lockdown version of the deck, you should be playing Blood Moon. It threatens more modern decks than any other individual card in our arsenal. After you cast a Blood Moon, just watch the change in your opponent's fetching and general attitude towards the game. It puts everyone on tilt as it wins. And if you find they are playing around it well enough, or can ignore it, then side them out and watch as your opponent plays around a card that isn't in your deck.
I think the best version of this deck is going to be streamlined with a lot of 4-ofs. I don't have the answer as to what that is yet, but I know some of the cards that are definitely included.
That's where I'm sitting right now. I'm not convinced of Porphyry Nodes or Ghostly Prison yet. Unfortunately, Nodes offers some anti-synergy with Spellskite and Elspeth, while Ghostly Prison may not be good enough. I really hate killing a Spellskite with Nodes. Nothing is worse. If I take out Nodes, it will be replaced with a playset of Runed Halo. I think that card is really amazing. It provides excellent defense against both aggro and combo and can generate virtual card advantage if you name something the opponent plays four-of, like Tarmogoyf.
Spellskite is so absolutely amazing in this list and it offers protection for all the permanent-based spells we have, as well as disruption against stuff like Scapeshift, Splinter Twin, and Auras; plus many other that aren't coming to mind at the moment. They were originally Wall of Omens, but once I tried Spellskite, I doubt I'll ever go back.
Just wondering, how viable is Ajani Steadfast with this deck, maybe as a 1 or 2 of. His first ability might work well with Gideon, his second with both Elspeth and Gideon, and his third is like a backup lockdown if you don't have an Ensnaring Bridge in play, or just don't want to play it with Gideon in play.
Although this does create a problem that there are now 2 Ajani subtypes in play, which limits the player. Ajani Vengeant is definetly a massive part of this deck, but just playing one Steadfast might not hurt for his emblem.
Steadfast's up ability will do nothing though. Really if you can ultimate him you can ultimate any other planeswalker and win. So it is win more. When you are up vs tier one decks will it save you under beatdown from goyf or whatever without bridge down. You need a pw with more relevant modes.
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Having no problem getting the lock (Bridge Version) but games went on too long and I either drew or they drew cards to get out (Pod). Could not get the win con out as I only had 2 Assemble the Legion
Has anyone considered a combo of Assemble the Legion and Purphoros, God of the Forge in relation to passive damage?
That is what happens vs pod if you do not knacker their mana in some way- they draw out and win- always. One of the reasons to include landkill/blood moon somewhere in the 75- it is why they are a tier one deck. If you want more in cons great- more burn or a big burn spell to the face my do it- but purphoros is probably not good- unless you fancy a norin/kher keep build or some such.......
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I see a lot of people on Assemble the Legions, but I'm curious if anyone has tried Elspeth, Sun's Champion in its place? I have tried both and Elspeth proved faster and more problematic for my opponents. It goes without saying that three abilities is better than one. She also created complex decision trees for opponents as they feel obligated to deal with her, just the same as Ajani. Redundancy in threats is important.
We all should be playing four Ajani Vengeant in the first place. He plays perfectly into the slow, strangling board state we try to achieve. He also plays really, really well with Blood Moon by permanently locking down basic lands. I'm going to be the first to say that if you are on the lockdown version of the deck, you should be playing Blood Moon. It threatens more modern decks than any other individual card in our arsenal. After you cast a Blood Moon, just watch the change in your opponent's fetching and general attitude towards the game. It puts everyone on tilt as it wins. And if you find they are playing around it well enough, or can ignore it, then side them out and watch as your opponent plays around a card that isn't in your deck.
I think the best version of this deck is going to be streamlined with a lot of 4-ofs. I don't have the answer as to what that is yet, but I know some of the cards that are definitely included.
That's where I'm sitting right now. I'm not convinced of Porphyry Nodes or Ghostly Prison yet. Unfortunately, Nodes offers some anti-synergy with Spellskite and Elspeth, while Ghostly Prison may not be good enough. I really hate killing a Spellskite with Nodes. Nothing is worse. If I take out Nodes, it will be replaced with a playset of Runed Halo. I think that card is really amazing. It provides excellent defense against both aggro and combo and can generate virtual card advantage if you name something the opponent plays four-of, like Tarmogoyf.
Spellskite is so absolutely amazing in this list and it offers protection for all the permanent-based spells we have, as well as disruption against stuff like Scapeshift, Splinter Twin, and Auras; plus many other that aren't coming to mind at the moment. They were originally Wall of Omens, but once I tried Spellskite, I doubt I'll ever go back.
Couple of points- ajani is not an auto include in some lockdown strategies- it needs protecting- bridge builds with skite are ideal for it. But it is not good if you are relying on just ghostly prison effects to protect it, as is the case in some versions (check the primer for all the variants). I am a huge fan of skite in bridge lists.
On blood moon- I -played a ptq at the weekend, and an awful lot of people were saying how little use they got out of them, complaining about wasted slots. The event was chock full of twin, jund, affinity and surprisingly storm, and moon only adversely affects one of those a lot, although it does affect affinty's man lands. I am not saying don't play it- but if your local meta is full of ur twin, storm, vial based hatebear decks, soul sistas, burn, 8 rack, affinity and mono green it would not be the best call.
I do not think there is an auto include card for all versions of rw lockdown- but there are pods of cards - eg skite, moon, bridge, leyline - that all work well together. Another is landkill/magus/prison. They cannot really be interchanged, but as a consequence there are few auto includes. Even some obvious ones change if you start to use odd things like chalices or whatever.
Incidentally I think if you run 4 o-ring you are normally better in most metas to run a 2/2 split of light/oring because of echoing truth and maelstrom pulse. The slightly theoretically worse light is to all intents and purposes the same as o ring.
I have not tried elspeth myself, but there is no reason why we can't go to six mana- but it is an awful lot for modern. The abilities are excellent -it synergises with the deck. If you run that sort of stuff I would want anti counter measures- unless your meta is blue less. Defense grid and guttural response work well. I am surprised you have found nevermore good- I always find the decks I want it against -combo -just remove it and win before I do. I tend to go after those decks resources more, even in bridge versions.
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This is just a quickie- I have been using relic of progenitus main deck with some success. Taking a leaf out of rg tron's book, really. One of the issues the landkill version of the deck has is dealing with goyf. Bridge versions are stronger vs goyf, but both are prone to removal blowout against jund style decks. The bridge decks I know have difficulty with usa control, and Relic seems to offer a flexible help for both key matches, making goyf smaller, making less lunch for scooze, making snappy worse. Not major stuff, but definitely worth putting in I feel in the current meta.
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Are there any R/W lockdown deck lists that are pretty recent in the primer? I know the strategies and card discussion is updated. I'm just curious if there is an updated deck list that has veen working recently.
Took first in FNM with around 16 players. Fought Pod, Zoo, Burn and Angels. Had troubles with Pod in the bridge version but the Stax version was great the landkill really worked well.
I used 3 Manamorphose as well in the list that helped a lot with drawing to my wincons.
I find relic of progenitus helps in a similar card draw way vs decks that do not use the bin. Bottled cloister too. Will post my latest list tommorow
Congrats on the fnm win. Pod is hard with bridge lists- it, tron and usa are really hard. The more landkill/ramp the better vs pod- you can cut them out the game with the right draws on the play.
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So, I'm really thinking of building this deck. I've been following it for a short time and I've just found a place that does modern like once a month or so. I've only seen one person play an actual tier one deck and it was affinity. While I don't plan on going to anything more then FNM, how would something like this work in something bigger? Just wanting to make sure if I do spend the money/make the trades for the parts I can find it won't be for something that's really not worth it in the long run.
Also, from what I've read the land destruction seems like the stronger of the deck when it comes down to it, is that right?
hmm, well.
The landkill is not stronger per se, but it is an all round deck. The bridge versions are in fact "stronger" if you have a very zoo/aggro based meta, but they keel over and die to all the tron and many control builds.
The point about the landkill versions is they are not very easy to play- they are quite interactive in a strange way. So you have to put some effort into them, and if you make a mistake you lose. Jund is forgiving of mistakes, these decks are not. It is a bit like pox in legacy- one mistake- eg kill a land when you should lay a magus- or forget to pay a mana for your magus [it goes if you draw and forget to pay- by drawing you apply the default action- sacrifice as the cost is not paid, even at fnm where you can go back for triggers] and you are gone.
I played vs pod last night and beat it with a landkill deck. The landkill decks are pretty good vs a fair few tier one decks- I have very positive records vs rg tron, affinity, storm and pod variants, my jund match is respectable nowadays, and twin is slightly favourable overall. The hardest matches for the landkill ones are odd off the radar things like straight up mono green beats, burn and some of the faster zoo builds that bridge decks eat for breakfast. Blue tron is rather awkward, esp game 1, and hatebear lists are ok. The thing about top decks is they tend to have greedy mana bases.
As to cost, well look at my list below- it is pretty damn cheap. Some cards you will use in other decks- bolts and helices. Others are staples and easily transferred to the next project- leylines of sanctity are a format board staple. The only thing you are "wasting" trades on are boom bust, assemble the legion and temples, and the last two can be used in standard.
Oh and BTW temples are actually pretty essential, they are just better than fetches in the list- the scry is really good at improving chances of t2 landkill off boom + flagstone or citadel.
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The list is designed to avoid as many multiples as possible- hence icy manipulator/sceptre split (the former can tap an etched champion and won't die to decay, the latter costs 3 but essentially they are the same). Ditto banishing light/oring. The idea is to avoid maelstrom pulse blowout. Generally against usa control and jund you bring in cloister/toll, with jund also getting rest in peaces. Usa and all blue decks bring in response, and boils.Halo is for affinity, scapeshift, storm, ad nauseam, 8 rack and sometimes twin. Leyline ditto but not affinity. Leyline also works vs 4 col loam control and scapeshift. RIP comes in vs living end, reanimator, storm and any jund/k/rock build. Toll works well vs hatebears as well as counterspell based decks and ven jund with its man lands. I am never afraid to board out ghostlies, sometimes the whole lot but even in matches where magus is "bad" -eg tron - it should normally stay as it gives options for bust- only vs. truely critterless decks like ad nauseam does it come out.
Bloodmoon can be used too, but I think it is board material, possibly.
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oh, and the list could be adapted to use an extra tec edge somewhere, going to 23 land and 3 signet, and perhaps cutting a burn spell or up temporarily to 61 cards. I have thought about ghost quarter/crucible, BUT that means no relics, which are what makes goyf die to a bolt, or what make snappy a bit weaker.
Just to add that you could run bridge in the above list if you wanted to over ghostly or burn spell.
If you take out activated abilities (eg the lands) you could take the above list and add in 4 suppression field whilst making the mana smoother, possibly even going down the storage matrix/bridge/ghostly mix n match route, losing the mana and tapping artifacts of course.
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Why the forbidding watchtower? I'm failing to see why would would include it in the list? Surely it's a tad underpowered? do you use it purely for blocking threats like goyf? Has it done much in the way of offence?
The list above is all about improving the previously awful jund/k/rock match- watchtower blocks courser, some goyfs, and most scoozes pretty well. With relics the goyfs often shrink mid game. The slot its in must produce white, too, and the deck is good at controlling so often if jund wins it is via an undealt with courser beat.
Encampment is often very good vs most decks- first strike is strong. The watchtower is just a different sort of card- defensively stronger and annoying for mid speed hatebeat decks running smiter type cards. Sometimes it can be activated post a lilly -2 to kill it all the same, but it is not there for beats. I had to grab mine out of an unmarked chaff box too. Sometimes garbage cards are just what a deck needs.
I am not sure how much further the list above can go- it has decent matches against most top decks, but thanks to the way it is built it no longer has walkover wins vs rg and uw tron, whilst some of the tier one point five decks like ad nauseam and mono u tron are always awkward......
I am minded to take it down a different route, much more landkill based, less about taxes.......
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Looking at a couple of ideas for increased landkill builds.
Thinking that something like a heavy red focus could give a full early landkill suite:
boom // bust, stone rain, molten rain.
With SSG as acceleration over signets, and near full sets of darksteels/flagstones it should be possible to consistently hit land from t2 onwards on a reasonable percentage of the time. Trinisphere may work in this kind of build- t2 landkill, t3 landkill, t4 3 sphere is pretty hard. It normally has not been up to the job in most versions I have tried, but with faster and more consistent landkill this could be its home. I have always mixed RW lockdown so that if it runs landkill it is a small aspect, combined with taxes and strong control elements. This new approach will have less control.
With temples still being able to add scry as a few people have found to work, full flagstones and citdels, and 12 early landkill spells consistency in finding landkill t2/3/4 is possible. Some upper end landkill on top of the curve has to be present too, besides bust, possibly utilising sowing salt and incendiary command.
A limited bolt suite, bridges and the odd prison mixed providing lower level control. Card advantage can come in a few ways -old school hammer of bogarden I have found works well in skred red control, chandra, bottled cloister etc. I have not yet looked towards assemble the legion- space will be tight, and win cons have to be few and far between, and some generic removal will be needed.
The same beautiful assortment of board options are present, and this time stony silence is an option as signets etc. are not needed.
I have done some preliminary work on this today and yesterday, and it seems promising.
My initial thought, as a fan of owling mine, is how is it better than owling mine, which basically has the weakness that it loses to aggro most of the time.......my other is the deck sounds more UB than any other col combo.....
Not sure it matters that much with that meta. Both versions work pretty well vs pod, twin and affinity (I think landkill is slightly better vs pod). Bridge is slightly stronger vs burn, and in the absence of USA control or twin then perhaps the bridge version. If you have bridges and moons then bridge is fine. If you don't then the deck probably is not worth the investment by itself- it would be a lot of cash for bridges which are really only used in a couple of decks.
Both decks are quite weak to jund, and the key to sideboarding in both games is to keep the permanents varied.
Pyro ascension vs landkill is so one sided it is untrue.
Well, Owling Mine isn't good right now. It's just not. It dies to aggro a lot, and it may do alright against control/slower decks, but that seems to be it. With some bleed effect in tax, they simply don't have the resources to do anything about it, and have no choice but to bleed. That's why I heavily prefer adding black since if I'm lower in life than they are when Spiteful visions come out then I'd lose, whereas if Underworld Dreams comes out then I have nothing to worry about.
Please put the colors of your suggestion in mana symbols prior to your suggestion in color-wheel order. To do this, put any of W, U, B, R, G, and/or C, whatever is applicable, with the word 'mana' inside [square bracets] before and the word '/mana' inside [square bracets] after the mana.
Freezing Point EDH series #1 (click through the other articles too!)
Has anyone considered a combo of Assemble the Legion and Purphoros, God of the Forge in relation to passive damage?
I've been getting most of the cards listed here and in the last week I started to test it.
Lands:
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Flagstone
1 Kher Keep
2 shock (I dont have 4 yet)
4 arid mesa
4 Clifftop Retreat
5 plains
3 mountain
2 boros signet
1 mind stone
Creatures:
3 Magus of the Tabernacle (love, life, rage)
4 Wall of Omens ( maybe -1 wall +1 Spellskite)
Spells:
4 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ghostly Prison (love, life, rage)
3 Assemble the Legion ( monster )
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Ajani Vengeant
1 Scepter of Dominance
1 Boom//Bust
1 Bottled Cloister (life, love)
1 War's Toll
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Chandra Nalaar
SB:
1x Anger of the Gods
3x Rest in Peace
3x Stony Silence
4x Wear / Tear
1x Oblivion Ring
3x Leyline of Sanctity
(I went back to play these days, I need to know my meta..but already realized that it's full of aggros and burns)
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I feel that my list needs more win conditions.
I'll cut:
-1 Chandra Nalaar
-1 War's Toll
-1 Boom//Bust(it's good but i have only 1 copy )
and maybe -1 O-ring.
Well, the list is good against aggros (of course), I had no opportunity to play against controls yet.
I do not want creatures for win coin, because once my opponent know that he will always save a removal for it, since I have few creatures and Walls.
Assemble the Legion is perfect, now I'm thinking of playing with four lol.
So I'm thinking maybe a splash to get win coin of another color or Stormbreath Dragon(but still die for Doom Blade)
maybe 1 or 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant and/or Batterskull
what you guys think about Sigarda, Host of Herons ?
any help is welcome
I will do more tests, tank you guys :).
We all should be playing four Ajani Vengeant in the first place. He plays perfectly into the slow, strangling board state we try to achieve. He also plays really, really well with Blood Moon by permanently locking down basic lands. I'm going to be the first to say that if you are on the lockdown version of the deck, you should be playing Blood Moon. It threatens more modern decks than any other individual card in our arsenal. After you cast a Blood Moon, just watch the change in your opponent's fetching and general attitude towards the game. It puts everyone on tilt as it wins. And if you find they are playing around it well enough, or can ignore it, then side them out and watch as your opponent plays around a card that isn't in your deck.
I think the best version of this deck is going to be streamlined with a lot of 4-ofs. I don't have the answer as to what that is yet, but I know some of the cards that are definitely included.
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
11 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Spellskite
4 Blood Moon
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgment
4 Ajani Vengeant
3 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3 Rest in Peace
2 Damping Matrix
3 Runed Halo
3 Nevermore
That's where I'm sitting right now. I'm not convinced of Porphyry Nodes or Ghostly Prison yet. Unfortunately, Nodes offers some anti-synergy with Spellskite and Elspeth, while Ghostly Prison may not be good enough. I really hate killing a Spellskite with Nodes. Nothing is worse. If I take out Nodes, it will be replaced with a playset of Runed Halo. I think that card is really amazing. It provides excellent defense against both aggro and combo and can generate virtual card advantage if you name something the opponent plays four-of, like Tarmogoyf.
Spellskite is so absolutely amazing in this list and it offers protection for all the permanent-based spells we have, as well as disruption against stuff like Scapeshift, Splinter Twin, and Auras; plus many other that aren't coming to mind at the moment. They were originally Wall of Omens, but once I tried Spellskite, I doubt I'll ever go back.
Steadfast's up ability will do nothing though. Really if you can ultimate him you can ultimate any other planeswalker and win. So it is win more. When you are up vs tier one decks will it save you under beatdown from goyf or whatever without bridge down. You need a pw with more relevant modes.
That is what happens vs pod if you do not knacker their mana in some way- they draw out and win- always. One of the reasons to include landkill/blood moon somewhere in the 75- it is why they are a tier one deck. If you want more in cons great- more burn or a big burn spell to the face my do it- but purphoros is probably not good- unless you fancy a norin/kher keep build or some such.......
Couple of points- ajani is not an auto include in some lockdown strategies- it needs protecting- bridge builds with skite are ideal for it. But it is not good if you are relying on just ghostly prison effects to protect it, as is the case in some versions (check the primer for all the variants). I am a huge fan of skite in bridge lists.
On blood moon- I -played a ptq at the weekend, and an awful lot of people were saying how little use they got out of them, complaining about wasted slots. The event was chock full of twin, jund, affinity and surprisingly storm, and moon only adversely affects one of those a lot, although it does affect affinty's man lands. I am not saying don't play it- but if your local meta is full of ur twin, storm, vial based hatebear decks, soul sistas, burn, 8 rack, affinity and mono green it would not be the best call.
I do not think there is an auto include card for all versions of rw lockdown- but there are pods of cards - eg skite, moon, bridge, leyline - that all work well together. Another is landkill/magus/prison. They cannot really be interchanged, but as a consequence there are few auto includes. Even some obvious ones change if you start to use odd things like chalices or whatever.
Incidentally I think if you run 4 o-ring you are normally better in most metas to run a 2/2 split of light/oring because of echoing truth and maelstrom pulse. The slightly theoretically worse light is to all intents and purposes the same as o ring.
I have not tried elspeth myself, but there is no reason why we can't go to six mana- but it is an awful lot for modern. The abilities are excellent -it synergises with the deck. If you run that sort of stuff I would want anti counter measures- unless your meta is blue less. Defense grid and guttural response work well. I am surprised you have found nevermore good- I always find the decks I want it against -combo -just remove it and win before I do. I tend to go after those decks resources more, even in bridge versions.
I used 3 Manamorphose as well in the list that helped a lot with drawing to my wincons.
Congrats on the fnm win. Pod is hard with bridge lists- it, tron and usa are really hard. The more landkill/ramp the better vs pod- you can cut them out the game with the right draws on the play.
Also, from what I've read the land destruction seems like the stronger of the deck when it comes down to it, is that right?
The landkill is not stronger per se, but it is an all round deck. The bridge versions are in fact "stronger" if you have a very zoo/aggro based meta, but they keel over and die to all the tron and many control builds.
The point about the landkill versions is they are not very easy to play- they are quite interactive in a strange way. So you have to put some effort into them, and if you make a mistake you lose. Jund is forgiving of mistakes, these decks are not. It is a bit like pox in legacy- one mistake- eg kill a land when you should lay a magus- or forget to pay a mana for your magus [it goes if you draw and forget to pay- by drawing you apply the default action- sacrifice as the cost is not paid, even at fnm where you can go back for triggers] and you are gone.
I played vs pod last night and beat it with a landkill deck. The landkill decks are pretty good vs a fair few tier one decks- I have very positive records vs rg tron, affinity, storm and pod variants, my jund match is respectable nowadays, and twin is slightly favourable overall. The hardest matches for the landkill ones are odd off the radar things like straight up mono green beats, burn and some of the faster zoo builds that bridge decks eat for breakfast. Blue tron is rather awkward, esp game 1, and hatebear lists are ok. The thing about top decks is they tend to have greedy mana bases.
As to cost, well look at my list below- it is pretty damn cheap. Some cards you will use in other decks- bolts and helices. Others are staples and easily transferred to the next project- leylines of sanctity are a format board staple. The only thing you are "wasting" trades on are boom bust, assemble the legion and temples, and the last two can be used in standard.
Oh and BTW temples are actually pretty essential, they are just better than fetches in the list- the scry is really good at improving chances of t2 landkill off boom + flagstone or citadel.
2 relic of progenitus
4 lightning helix
3 boros signet
4 boom // bust
1 banishing light
1 oblivion ring
1 sceptre of dominance
4 stone rain
4 ghostly prison
1 icy manipulator
1 wrath of god
1 bottled cloister
4 magus of the tabernacle
3 assemble the legion
1 mountain
4 temple of triumph
4 flagstones of trokair
2 darksteel citadel
2 mystifying maze
1 tectonic edge
4 sacred foundry
1 rugged prairie
1 ghitu encampment
1 forbidding watchtower
2 leyline of sanctity
1 runed halo
2 guttural response
3 aura of silence
3 rest in peace
2 boil
1 bottled cloister
1 war's toll (random spell/floating slot)
The list is designed to avoid as many multiples as possible- hence icy manipulator/sceptre split (the former can tap an etched champion and won't die to decay, the latter costs 3 but essentially they are the same). Ditto banishing light/oring. The idea is to avoid maelstrom pulse blowout. Generally against usa control and jund you bring in cloister/toll, with jund also getting rest in peaces. Usa and all blue decks bring in response, and boils.Halo is for affinity, scapeshift, storm, ad nauseam, 8 rack and sometimes twin. Leyline ditto but not affinity. Leyline also works vs 4 col loam control and scapeshift. RIP comes in vs living end, reanimator, storm and any jund/k/rock build. Toll works well vs hatebears as well as counterspell based decks and ven jund with its man lands. I am never afraid to board out ghostlies, sometimes the whole lot but even in matches where magus is "bad" -eg tron - it should normally stay as it gives options for bust- only vs. truely critterless decks like ad nauseam does it come out.
Bloodmoon can be used too, but I think it is board material, possibly.
If you take out activated abilities (eg the lands) you could take the above list and add in 4 suppression field whilst making the mana smoother, possibly even going down the storage matrix/bridge/ghostly mix n match route, losing the mana and tapping artifacts of course.
The list above is all about improving the previously awful jund/k/rock match- watchtower blocks courser, some goyfs, and most scoozes pretty well. With relics the goyfs often shrink mid game. The slot its in must produce white, too, and the deck is good at controlling so often if jund wins it is via an undealt with courser beat.
Encampment is often very good vs most decks- first strike is strong. The watchtower is just a different sort of card- defensively stronger and annoying for mid speed hatebeat decks running smiter type cards. Sometimes it can be activated post a lilly -2 to kill it all the same, but it is not there for beats. I had to grab mine out of an unmarked chaff box too. Sometimes garbage cards are just what a deck needs.
I am not sure how much further the list above can go- it has decent matches against most top decks, but thanks to the way it is built it no longer has walkover wins vs rg and uw tron, whilst some of the tier one point five decks like ad nauseam and mono u tron are always awkward......
I am minded to take it down a different route, much more landkill based, less about taxes.......
Thinking that something like a heavy red focus could give a full early landkill suite:
boom // bust, stone rain, molten rain.
With SSG as acceleration over signets, and near full sets of darksteels/flagstones it should be possible to consistently hit land from t2 onwards on a reasonable percentage of the time. Trinisphere may work in this kind of build- t2 landkill, t3 landkill, t4 3 sphere is pretty hard. It normally has not been up to the job in most versions I have tried, but with faster and more consistent landkill this could be its home. I have always mixed RW lockdown so that if it runs landkill it is a small aspect, combined with taxes and strong control elements. This new approach will have less control.
With temples still being able to add scry as a few people have found to work, full flagstones and citdels, and 12 early landkill spells consistency in finding landkill t2/3/4 is possible. Some upper end landkill on top of the curve has to be present too, besides bust, possibly utilising sowing salt and incendiary command.
A limited bolt suite, bridges and the odd prison mixed providing lower level control. Card advantage can come in a few ways -old school hammer of bogarden I have found works well in skred red control, chandra, bottled cloister etc. I have not yet looked towards assemble the legion- space will be tight, and win cons have to be few and far between, and some generic removal will be needed.
The same beautiful assortment of board options are present, and this time stony silence is an option as signets etc. are not needed.
I have done some preliminary work on this today and yesterday, and it seems promising.