How do people feel about that card in the Midrange-control builds? Does that build want 4x? I'm thinking so, the builds without finks/omens/resto probably want 4x as well.
Lets not forget our other new toys:
Do they belong in the same build, or does thopter-sword want thirst for knowledge?
Visions unban changes EVERYTHING. Now it's time for draw-go full control builds. Maybe with Thing in the Ice. But I think Vision will give a boost to Jeskai Control and Grixis Control. Which are no easy MUs. After all, why not splash a third color? Now more than ever this question is going to be difficult to answer.
Regardless of all that, Eye ban is great for UW, 'cause Tron's late game really got hurt badly.
Lol the UWR thread thinks AV is no good for that deck. I look forward to the 'pros' jamming 4 and winning and seeing that thread do a complete 180.
Visions unban changes EVERYTHING. Now it's time for draw-go full control builds. Maybe with Thing in the Ice. But I think Vision will give a boost to Jeskai Control and Grixis Control. Which are no easy MUs. After all, why not splash a third color? Now more than ever this question is going to be difficult to answer.
Regardless of all that, Eye ban is great for UW, 'cause Tron's late game really got hurt badly.
well, try to survive to turn 4 against burn/suicide zoo/etc with a 3c manabase.
blood moon is still there as well.
the reasons to be plain UW and not splash (mainly R or B) are still there.
This is my current list. I'm at 25 lands with 3 quarters and 2 tec edges since I anticipate the format gets slower so 2 tec edges seems nice. I still need to get the crucible and the dragonlord lands (castle and school at the water's edge). The 1 of render silent is a nice buffer between spell snare and cryptic command. I may go up to 3 detention sphere for now until declaration in stone becomes a legal card since it will help with dealing with thopter tokens.
Is pithing needle something we should strongly consider with the new meta shift? It can help tron / infect match up. name aether vile for merfolk. foundry for the lists that will start to appear.
What's our best weapons vs jund anyway?
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Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan Legacy: RG Lands EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
Visions unban changes EVERYTHING. Now it's time for draw-go full control builds. Maybe with Thing in the Ice. But I think Vision will give a boost to Jeskai Control and Grixis Control. Which are no easy MUs. After all, why not splash a third color? Now more than ever this question is going to be difficult to answer.
Regardless of all that, Eye ban is great for UW, 'cause Tron's late game really got hurt badly.
Because Blue moon will be very powerful along with tectonic edge becoming very strong so there is still a desire to run a 2 colored deck that can mainboard 4-5 land destruction while still being okay against blood moon. Thing in the ice is a tempo card not a control card imho. Visions gives us the biggest boost because we can grind harder than those control decks can and we can play cards like rest in peace to deal with snap/thopter combo. I think UW control might become a tier 1 deck since we have so many great answers to the field imho. I would be running my build or something like it first week.
Interesting list. What do you think about abandoning Wall-Resto-Finks plan for Sword+Thopter+Thirst plan?
I like my list because I have so much hate against the combo that I don't need it and this deck ALREADY has a great aggro matchup so why run the combo? My sideboard runs: 2 RIP, 3 stony silence, a disenchant, and a 3rd detention sphere (will become some number of declaration in stone) to deal with thopter combo. With that package along with crucible of worlds and aven mindcensor to mess them up on fetchland searching/path to exile searching I think this deck will manage.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
With AV unbanned UW will be my main deck in Modern now. I will brew a list and then post later. I'm going to avoid the combo for now, I'm just going to make a straight up UW draw go list.
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Standard
none
Modern UBG B/U/G control BBB MBC WUR Control WWW Prison RRR Goblins
Legacy BBB Pox UBG B/U/G Control UWU StoneBlade UW Miracle Control
I'm going to work on the thopter-control archetype. I suppose that fits into UW Control as I plan to use the UW shell and use Thopter as the primary win condition instead of cards like Gideon Jura and Elspeth, Sun's Champion. If you look at the decks that leaned heavily on Myth Realized and Elspeth, Sun's Champion it feels like they could easily adapt to having the thopter + sword combo. The mid-range control decks already have their aggro plan figured out and I think the cards needed to really synergize with thopters will require removing too many of those elements.
Pros:
Early (flying) blockers help against creature-based aggro.
Life-gain component helps against burn and aggro decks.
Doesn't require significant tapping out (compared to Elspeth) on your main phase.
Grows quickly (faster than Myth, faster than Elspeth most of the time).
Has evasion to swing with.
Cons:
Two cards, so harder to set up.
Weak to graveyard hate.
Weak to artifact hate.
Those are some significant drawbacks, but ultimately I feel it's resilient enough to warrant some exploration. I think it's a great addition for the decks that want to play more on the control side of things and less on the midrange side.
I think AV is of dubious value. The 4-turn delay makes it a terrible top deck, though if you can resolve it you can bury your opponent in card advantage. It'll work best in the deck that already have strong ability to delay and draw out the game, which I don't think any of us particularly like in the current meta.
I have never played with AV myself, but I don't think the 4-turn delay is a huge deal. I mean, we are already controlling the pace of the game with permission and removal spells, so even if AV is drawn on turn 3+ it should be easily resolving.
If you look at the decks that leaned heavily on Myth Realized and Elspeth, Sun's Champion it feels like they could easily adapt to having the thopter + sword combo. The mid-range control decks already have their aggro plan figured out and I think the cards needed to really synergize with thopters will require removing too many of those elements.
Pros:
Early (flying) blockers help against creature-based aggro.
Life-gain component helps against burn and aggro decks.
Doesn't require significant tapping out (compared to Elspeth) on your main phase.
Grows quickly (faster than Myth, faster than Elspeth most of the time).
Has evasion to swing with.
Cons:
Two cards, so harder to set up.
Weak to graveyard hate.
Weak to artifact hate.
Those are some significant drawbacks, but ultimately I feel it's resilient enough to warrant some exploration. I think it's a great addition for the decks that want to play more on the control side of things and less on the midrange side.
I think AV is of dubious value. The 4-turn delay makes it a terrible top deck, though if you can resolve it you can bury your opponent in card advantage. It'll work best in the deck that already have strong ability to delay and draw out the game, which I don't think any of us particularly like in the current meta.
The unbans are without a doubt interesting, but from my standpoint I haven't made up my mind about these new tools yet. You mention that "myth & elspeth" decks could adopt the combo.My own list as an example;
The thopter-sword combo doesn't give earlier blockers than Lingering Souls so that's not an improvement. That being said, it's reapeatable, scales with your mana, and provides life which is nice. However, as you mentioned, you'll need to find the combo. Though you don't really want to run a full playset of each piece as the effect doesn't stack. It's also important to be aware of that the pieces alone doesn't do much, making both a bad top-deck if they're alone. You'll probably want cards like Thirst and Serum Visions for digging.
If I would take my deck as a starting point, the first cuts would be:
-4 Myths
-1 Clique (moved to the side)
-1 Painful Truths
+3 Thopter Foundry
+2 Sword of the Meek
+1 Thirst for Knowledge
It's an interesting first change, that's for sure. Though, when it comes to AV versus SV, I think that Serum would be the best for the list as it helps dig for the combo and can be re-cast with Snapcaster.
Edit small observations:
* T1 Ancestral Vision conflict with T1 colonnade which is slightly awkward.
* Jace, Architect of Thought seems relevant in the new meta if thopters running rampant.
I like Signets in this deck. They:
- ramp into T3 Wrath/Gifts.
- give you more mana for Thopter+Sword.
- fix colors for Thopter Foundry/Supreme Verdict or against Blood Moon. Also lets you get away with more colorless lands, i.e. GQ/Darksteel Citadel.
- are artifacts for Thirst/Thopter Foundry. If you have Foundry on the battlefield and Sword in your graveyard, you still need one artifact to kickstart the combo.
- make Seachrome Coast slightly better than Glacial Fortress. Normally you want Fortress, because Coast would ETB tapped if it's your fourth land, but with Signets you can have 2 lands + 1 Signet, and Coast would ETB untapped if you played it as your fourth land.
Ancestral Vision fits best in a Grixis midrange shell with Goblin Dark-Dwellers to cast it over and over again. I think UW Control lists that lean towards the midrange side of the spectrum want 3 Vision, but that's without proper testing.
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EDH GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG UBRNicol Bolas and his SuperfriendsPawnsUBR
Modern UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW WUBRGHumansWUBRG BGMidrangeBG
Because Blue moon will be very powerful along with tectonic edge becoming very strong so there is still a desire to run a 2 colored deck that can mainboard 4-5 land destruction while still being okay against blood moon. Thing in the ice is a tempo card not a control card imho. Visions gives us the biggest boost because we can grind harder than those control decks can and we can play cards like rest in peace to deal with snap/thopter combo. I think UW control might become a tier 1 deck since we have so many great answers to the field imho. I would be running my build or something like it first week.
I'm extremely skeptical about UW becoming tier 1. Regardless of that, Thing in the Ice is definitely no tempo card. But it sure needs to prove its potential, for now there's been a lot of talking about it but it remains unclear whether facts will follow.
Thing is the definition of a tempo card because it's a horrible top deck and does a worse wall of omens impression unless you get lucky enough for it to flip. It's only good against aggro decks which we already matchup well to.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
This is the base of the deck, I could always switch the combo for 4x Ancestral Vision if it grows in popularity and utility (since again, I'm not particularly impressed by it in the actual meta). I'm definitely not sure about the build but I don't think a Midrange or Tapout playstyle is what UW needs now, so I want to stay in the control zone.
Any suggestions? I'm not sure about Detention Sphere but it seems nice either as removal and another answer against opponent's SotM combo or problematic permanents in general. Also, with Eye of Ugin ban, playing control against Tron is definitely hard but not awful. Negate maindeck is going to be great now, with fast combo decks trying to outspeed AV, against Infect and Burn, or against other control decks.
I would consider some copies of declaration in stone since it hits the thopter tokens.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
I like Signets in this deck. They:
- ramp into T3 Wrath/Gifts.
- give you more mana for Thopter+Sword.
- fix colors for Thopter Foundry/Supreme Verdict or against Blood Moon. Also lets you get away with more colorless lands, i.e. GQ/Darksteel Citadel.
- are artifacts for Thirst/Thopter Foundry. If you have Foundry on the battlefield and Sword in your graveyard, you still need one artifact to kickstart the combo.
- make Seachrome Coast slightly better than Glacial Fortress. Normally you want Fortress, because Coast would ETB tapped if it's your fourth land, but with Signets you can have 2 lands + 1 Signet, and Coast would ETB untapped if you played it as your fourth land.
I really like your list as a jumping off point. Turn 3 hard wraths deal with a lot of shenanigans, especially delve creatures.
This is the base of the deck, I could always switch the combo for 4x Ancestral Vision if it grows in popularity and utility (since again, I'm not particularly impressed by it in the actual meta). I'm definitely not sure about the build but I don't think a Midrange or Tapout playstyle is what UW needs now, so I want to stay in the control zone.
Any suggestions? I'm not sure about Detention Sphere but it seems nice either as removal and another answer against opponent's SotM combo or problematic permanents in general. Also, with Eye of Ugin ban, playing control against Tron is definitely hard but not awful. Negate maindeck is going to be great now, with fast combo decks trying to outspeed AV, against Infect and Burn, or against other control decks.
Consider blade splicer? I recall it being an okay inclusion to UW with Restos. She triggers Sword of the Meek to come to the battlefield, and her token can be sac'd to start the combo.
This is the base of the deck, I could always switch the combo for 4x Ancestral Vision if it grows in popularity and utility (since again, I'm not particularly impressed by it in the actual meta). I'm definitely not sure about the build but I don't think a Midrange or Tapout playstyle is what UW needs now, so I want to stay in the control zone.
Any suggestions? I'm not sure about Detention Sphere but it seems nice either as removal and another answer against opponent's SotM combo or problematic permanents in general. Also, with Eye of Ugin ban, playing control against Tron is definitely hard but not awful. Negate maindeck is going to be great now, with fast combo decks trying to outspeed AV, against Infect and Burn, or against other control decks.
I would consider some copies of declaration in stone since it hits the thopter tokens.
Declaration in Stone seems really bad against thopter combo. It only works if they tap out before the end step on your turn. Otherwise they just sac the token you target.
Edit: Oops, forgot the nontoken clause on Thopter Foundry, still think declaration in stone is bad against thopter combo. They can just make more tokens and you are doing it at sorcery speed so they can still just make tokens at end of turn.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/683938-current-modern-banlist-discussion-4-4-2016-eye-of
the headache now is testing a lot of different builds
Time to jam 4 and start testing.
RBUGrixis ControlUBR
GUSimic MerfolkUG
WUUW ControlUW
RBUGrixis ControlUBR
BUUB MillUB
Colorless Eldrazi Tron
WRBurnRW
GUSimic MerfolkUG
UMono U TurnsU
WGGenesis Wave EnchantressGW
Lets not forget our other new toys:
Do they belong in the same build, or does thopter-sword want thirst for knowledge?
Seems like new builds are in order.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Lol the UWR thread thinks AV is no good for that deck. I look forward to the 'pros' jamming 4 and winning and seeing that thread do a complete 180.
well, try to survive to turn 4 against burn/suicide zoo/etc with a 3c manabase.
blood moon is still there as well.
the reasons to be plain UW and not splash (mainly R or B) are still there.
http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-uw-control-post-soi/
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
What's our best weapons vs jund anyway?
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
Because Blue moon will be very powerful along with tectonic edge becoming very strong so there is still a desire to run a 2 colored deck that can mainboard 4-5 land destruction while still being okay against blood moon. Thing in the ice is a tempo card not a control card imho. Visions gives us the biggest boost because we can grind harder than those control decks can and we can play cards like rest in peace to deal with snap/thopter combo. I think UW control might become a tier 1 deck since we have so many great answers to the field imho. I would be running my build or something like it first week.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
I like my list because I have so much hate against the combo that I don't need it and this deck ALREADY has a great aggro matchup so why run the combo? My sideboard runs: 2 RIP, 3 stony silence, a disenchant, and a 3rd detention sphere (will become some number of declaration in stone) to deal with thopter combo. With that package along with crucible of worlds and aven mindcensor to mess them up on fetchland searching/path to exile searching I think this deck will manage.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
none
Modern
UBG B/U/G control
BBB MBC
WUR Control
WWW Prison
RRR Goblins
Legacy
BBB Pox
UBG B/U/G Control
UWU StoneBlade
UW Miracle Control
Pros:
Cons:
Those are some significant drawbacks, but ultimately I feel it's resilient enough to warrant some exploration. I think it's a great addition for the decks that want to play more on the control side of things and less on the midrange side.
I think AV is of dubious value. The 4-turn delay makes it a terrible top deck, though if you can resolve it you can bury your opponent in card advantage. It'll work best in the deck that already have strong ability to delay and draw out the game, which I don't think any of us particularly like in the current meta.
The unbans are without a doubt interesting, but from my standpoint I haven't made up my mind about these new tools yet. You mention that "myth & elspeth" decks could adopt the combo.My own list as an example;
The thopter-sword combo doesn't give earlier blockers than Lingering Souls so that's not an improvement. That being said, it's reapeatable, scales with your mana, and provides life which is nice. However, as you mentioned, you'll need to find the combo. Though you don't really want to run a full playset of each piece as the effect doesn't stack. It's also important to be aware of that the pieces alone doesn't do much, making both a bad top-deck if they're alone. You'll probably want cards like Thirst and Serum Visions for digging.
If I would take my deck as a starting point, the first cuts would be:
-4 Myths
-1 Clique (moved to the side)
-1 Painful Truths
+3 Thopter Foundry
+2 Sword of the Meek
+1 Thirst for Knowledge
It's an interesting first change, that's for sure. Though, when it comes to AV versus SV, I think that Serum would be the best for the list as it helps dig for the combo and can be re-cast with Snapcaster.
Edit small observations:
* T1 Ancestral Vision conflict with T1 colonnade which is slightly awkward.
* Jace, Architect of Thought seems relevant in the new meta if thopters running rampant.
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Darksteel Citadel
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Plains
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Academy Ruins
Removal
4 Path to Exile
1 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgment
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Remand
1 Muddle the Mixture
CA
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Gifts Ungiven
Combo pieces
1 Unburial Rites
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
Artifacts
4 Azorius Signet
1 Spellskite
2 Dispel
2 Negate
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Disenchant
2 Celestial Purge
1 Spellskite
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Wurmcoil Engine
- ramp into T3 Wrath/Gifts.
- give you more mana for Thopter+Sword.
- fix colors for Thopter Foundry/Supreme Verdict or against Blood Moon. Also lets you get away with more colorless lands, i.e. GQ/Darksteel Citadel.
- are artifacts for Thirst/Thopter Foundry. If you have Foundry on the battlefield and Sword in your graveyard, you still need one artifact to kickstart the combo.
- make Seachrome Coast slightly better than Glacial Fortress. Normally you want Fortress, because Coast would ETB tapped if it's your fourth land, but with Signets you can have 2 lands + 1 Signet, and Coast would ETB untapped if you played it as your fourth land.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW
UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW
UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG
UBRNicol Bolas and his Super
friendsPawnsUBRModern
UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW
WUBRGHumansWUBRG
BGMidrangeBG
Thing is the definition of a tempo card because it's a horrible top deck and does a worse wall of omens impression unless you get lucky enough for it to flip. It's only good against aggro decks which we already matchup well to.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
I would consider some copies of declaration in stone since it hits the thopter tokens.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Consider blade splicer? I recall it being an okay inclusion to UW with Restos. She triggers Sword of the Meek to come to the battlefield, and her token can be sac'd to start the combo.
Declaration in Stone seems really bad against thopter combo. It only works if they tap out before the end step on your turn. Otherwise they just sac the token you target.
Edit: Oops, forgot the nontoken clause on Thopter Foundry, still think declaration in stone is bad against thopter combo. They can just make more tokens and you are doing it at sorcery speed so they can still just make tokens at end of turn.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.