If you had to chose 5 cards to build your sideboard out of right now (3 copies of 5 cards) what would they be?
Sunlance, Burrenton and RIP have cemented themselves of 3-ofs for me, but I couldn't pick 2 more cards to round out the 15
Hey, dude, first of all, congratz for yours 4-0!
Can you share your experience against the Jeskai and Affinity match ups?
What you side in and out in this matchs?
Thanks
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern W Death & Taxes W WB Eldrazi & Taxes WB BW BW Eldrazi BW G Green Devotion G RW Norin Sisters RW GB Delirium Emrakul's end GB
Duel CmD W Thalia, Guardian of Thraben W BW Karlov BW
For Jeskai it's all about protecting one or two threats, don't over-commit to the board because that'll be the turn they top-deck a wrath. Land a couple of threats, keep vials on 3 and wisps in hand to respond to removal. Also Thought-Knot Seer is just fantastic
I boarded in:
2x Gideon of the Trials - landing a planeswalker is huge against control, generally they can't do anything but path it and Displacer/Flickerwisp tend to make that difficult
3x Burrenton Forgetender - pretty obvious, turn off Bolt/Helix/Anger
And out:
2x Thraben Inspector - Don't want to overload on 1-drops, in multiples they just end up being terrible
2x Leonin Arbiter - Honestly I wasn't sure about this, just knew my opponent was aware to play around them
1x Path to Exile - Only creatures my opponent was playing was Spell Queller, but as buying back a card from Spell Queller is usually pretty back-breaking I kept most paths in. Plus they help deal any Gideons running about on their side of the board
I'm playing Jeskai myself more than D&T these days; I'm not sure this is the right way to attack that deck. Most of your advice seems geared towards the heavy control versions rather than the more popular tempo types playing Geist of Saint Traft and significantly more burn. Your best card in this match-up is Vial, then little Thalia and Flicker/Resto/Displacer. Being able to drop a uncounterable creature at instant speed EOT with an early Thalia making removal a turn too slow puts Jeskai on their heels; if you can put a 4-5 turn clock on the field, save your flicker tricks to dodge removal. There's not much way for Jeskai to pick up card advantage outside of a perfect Electrolyze or a rare Supreme Verdict hitting several creatures so blanking a Bolt or Helix puts you massively ahead. Essentially you want to play the tempo game, just slightly faster than Jeskai can manage.
Aren't UW/Jeskai Control and Jeskai Gheist two different decks, tough? It's true they share a lot of cards, but their gameplan is completely different.
I am trying to do a BW D&T deck. I'm on a budget so Aether Vial and Thalia 1.0 is out of the question. Any suggestion as to how to run it? I'm assuming this for a base so far:
I don't know where else to start spell-wise and I am trying to place an order today so I can use it at a Modern PPTQ next Saturday. I was looking back on the other pages and there is a lot of Mono W Taxes decks but they have 4 Vials and 4 Thalia 1.0. Thanks guys.
I am trying to do a BW D&T deck. I'm on a budget so Aether Vial and Thalia 1.0 is out of the question. Any suggestion as to how to run it? I'm assuming this for a base so far:
I don't know where else to start spell-wise and I am trying to place an order today so I can use it at a Modern PPTQ next Saturday. I was looking back on the other pages and there is a lot of Mono W Taxes decks but they have 4 Vials and 4 Thalia 1.0. Thanks guys.
Vial and thalia are key cards to the deck. With out them you will be a shadow of the overall power you could get.
Also your mana might be brutal with out vials. WB DnT already has mana base issues so with out vial for the out I don't know how it will go. I am not trying to be negative just honest. I myself am only missing vials an Thalias for my paper version, trying to pick them up slowly, but I am just not playing it with out them personally.
Aren't UW/Jeskai Control and Jeskai Gheist two different decks, tough? It's true they share a lot of cards, but their gameplan is completely different.
Yeah, I see what you mean. Both versions are frequently referred to as "Jeskai Control", but he may have been specifically asking about the more controlling versions (only Snaps and a Gearhulk) rather than the more tempo Geist/Queller/Snaps version. I don't think that changes the plan of attack for D&T much though -- you still want Thalia, Vial, and a 4-5 turn clock over a couple creatures. Blank PTE and Electolyze with flicker tricks and that should put you ahead.
I am trying to do a BW D&T deck. I'm on a budget so Aether Vial and Thalia 1.0 is out of the question. Any suggestion as to how to run it? I'm assuming this for a base so far:
I don't know where else to start spell-wise and I am trying to place an order today so I can use it at a Modern PPTQ next Saturday. I was looking back on the other pages and there is a lot of Mono W Taxes decks but they have 4 Vials and 4 Thalia 1.0. Thanks guys.
Hello Animar.
First of all, as others have said to you, it's really really difficult have a good D&T built without Thalia and Vial.
So, I would go to Vryn Wingmare playset and go to mono W because if the mana base of B/W is clunky with Vial, without Vial is going to be a nightmare. Also I would recommend try to maximize all the flickering effects to gain small advantages and the LD. Full playset of Displacers, Flickers and maybe a few Restos.
What is the consensus on the new card from ixalan, field of ruin?
It seems like a cool option and could possibly be played 2 / 2 with tec edge.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern:UBRDeath's ShadowUBR, CEldrazi StompyC,WUBRGSliversWUBRG, UBRGTraverse ShadowUBRG,RUGtempo pileRUG Pauper:UdelverU they slaughtered my deck i miss gush and daze..
xotug's list looks like a good start, but if you won't have Vial then going 4xResto 2xWisp like Jason Simard's GP Vancouver Vial-less Taxes list might be worth consideration.
I'm updating some information that has been asked of me! I am also going to update links below once I have had some time to test with Ixalan. Tomorrow night, if I can get the singles needed, I will stream with Ixalan in a league.
Feel free to private message me with any singles you would love to see tested! I'll try to pick them up.
-Catmix
Ixalan in Death And Taxes:
Hello there, DNT Squad! Let's dive right into this. We have become a Tier 1 deck in the last 6 months. There are two builds primarily responsible for this: Mono-White DNT & Eldrazi And Taxes. This is not to say other builds haven't had major success but the major meta share is from the aforementioned duo. The next step is to see if either of those lists got better with Ixalan, and to determine what specific cards will be utilized from the new set.
Ixalan Playables: [These cards have the potential of being used for Death And Taxes in the maindeck and/or sideboard].
Field of Ruin: This card seems to be the clear winner as most likely played card for our archetype. I am not sold on it taking over Tectonic Edge slots like some others have been thinking. I do believe that this could be the 8th and 9th colorless land slots.
Settle the Wreckage: Path of God, Wrath to Exile, Mass Path (or whatever!) This is very likely in contention with the Dusk/Dawn slots in Mono-White's board. Not having to lose your own team is great. Having to wait for an opponent to alpha swing might be problematic, though. I do like this card a lot and look forward to testing it.
Kinjalli's Sunwing: This card has potential to be a flex slot for Mono-White. The body is "reasonable" and the tax is pretty affective in Modern. If a list wants Thalia, Heretic Cathar, there might be a chance this takes some of the same slots (maybe).)
Deadeye Tracker: Surprisingly, I think this might be a viable (pun intended) target for Eldrazi and Taxes. One Drops have proven to be pretty important. Having a card that can filter cards, scale in size, and force removal from the opps could be great. Eldrazi And Taxes players should really, really, really look at addressing the mana issues with the list. That deck has access to so many great tools but punishes itself so much with the current configuration.
A Death-Cat's Sideboard Plan:
Recently, I have had an influx of people asking me for my sideboard planning. I tend to play "unconventional" Magic and look for mix-ups to adjust for the meta (see in example: Journey To Nowhere.) While I may not be reinventing the wheel or choosing a plan most will agree with, many have continuously asked about my personal sideboard strategy.
So without further adieu, "How to be a Death-Cat".
Precursor to building the SB:
Step 1: Jam (and track) as many games with your desired list. Find out how many games you are winning on draw/play with your main deck. The desired result is to be 50% better against any given deck at any given time with your main deck. While you play more games in the sideboard, you have access to a maximum of 15 cards in your SB. Having a fighting chance game one is critical to your overall win percentage. Have you ever noticed most people in Top 8 do not have amazing blow out wins but consistently win round over round. This is because a balanced deck will win across the field instead of head-hunting 2-3 meta decks.
Step 2: Use a trusted site such as: MtgTop 8 or Mtg Goldfish to determine what the top tier decks are. Observe how many decks have overlapping strategies. Do 3 decks in the meta all crumble to Rest In Peace? Is there a singular deck that just seems like its the only one that needs specific hate (Affinity). Use the information from Step 1 to determine if you even want to have additional tools against them. If you are 50%+ against them on play and draw, then why are you dedicating hate to the deck or the pilot. My earliest years of Magic have shown me sometimes we get tethered to how it feels to lose to the same player over and over again. Eventually, you want to stick it to that player... not the deck.
Step 3: Accept your losses. There are some decks that you will not beat unless you over commit to beating them. If you are playing against a deck that you are 20-40% on play/draw prior to boarding, Adding 2 cards to your SB is not worth the percentage points you would gain against other overlapping strategies. After every round in a major event, I count what cards in my SB came in and how many were drawn in the match. This will help you you track whether your sb choices are influential in you wining games.
Step 4: Change your sideboard based on what your results are telling you! If you have cards that have become pet sideboard cards, cut them! "I SAID CUT THEM!" lol. Modern is always changing. Cards are always being printed. Your match up percentages are changing every 3 months. Storm use to be a complete joke against DNT. Now, they have 8 Thalias/Storm Lords. Change your sideboards. Stop being stubborn.
Pre-Ixalan Sideboard: Here goes an example sideboard of mine (at the moment):
This sideboard was a result of all the things I described in the precursor section. I tracked my results and made changes as needed. (Gideon might need to be readjusted at the time of the post).
Lets give a mock run through 5 rounds to see if I have reasonable sideboard options. I am going to check a random tournament report on MTG Goldfish and see how our SB would have would perform. Link to Gauntlet
R1 vs UW Control.
SB Options: Gideon of the Trials, Oblivion Ring, Eidolon of Rheteric, Rest In Peace, Spellskite.
R2 vs Ad Nauseam (Skipped Jeskai due to redundancy).
SB Options: Gideon of the Trials, Oblivion Ring, Eidolon of Rhetoric, Spellskite, Burrenton Forge-Tender.
R3 vs Esper Gifts.
SB Options: Eidolon of Rhetoric, Rest In Peace, Spellskite, Sunlance, Journey To Nowhere.
R4 vs Bogle.
SB Options: Spellskite, Oblivion Ring.
R5 vs Affinity.
SB Options: Oblivion Ring, Spellskite, Journey to Nowhere, Sunlance, Burrenton Forge-Tender.
With these matches, data shows me that I can expect to run a 5-0 or 4-1 against the meta. The swingiest matches being Bogle and Affinity. The Gideon might be the shakiest card in my board according to what we are observing. Initially, Gideon was in the Board due to Smallpox and other randoms showing up in the meta. But, it might be time to turn those into Settle the Wreckage. And guess what! That would answer the shaky match ups we just analyzed.
While this is not a step by step into every tier match up, I hope it gives some insight to my SB building and why I feel that my unorthodox sb tends to do well. In the last year I have attended roughly 6-7 events and have placed top 8 in all of them. I think with more data we can all potentially continue to uncover great tools as metas keep pushing forward.
I'm updating some information that has been asked of me! I am also going to update links below once I have had some time to test with Ixalan. Tomorrow night, if I can get the singles needed, I will stream with Ixalan in a league.
Feel free to private message me with any singles you would love to see tested! I'll try to pick them up.
-Catmix
Ixalan in Death And Taxes:
Hello there, DNT Squad! Let's dive right into this. We have become a Tier 1 deck in the last 6 months. There are two builds primarily responsible for this: Mono-White DNT & Eldrazi And Taxes. This is not to say other builds haven't had major success but the major meta share is from the aforementioned duo. The next step is to see if either of those lists got better with Ixalan, and to determine what specific cards will be utilized from the new set.
Ixalan Playables: [These cards have the potential of being used for Death And Taxes in the maindeck and/or sideboard].
Field of Ruin: This card seems to be the clear winner as most likely played card for our archetype. I am not sold on it taking over Tectonic Edge slots like some others have been thinking. I do believe that this could be the 8th and 9th colorless land slots.
Settle the Wreckage: Path of God, Wrath to Exile, Mass Path (or whatever!) This is very likely in contention with the Dusk/Dawn slots in Mono-White's board. Not having to lose your own team is great. Having to wait for an opponent to alpha swing might be problematic, though. I do like this card a lot and look forward to testing it.
Kinjalli's Sunwing: This card has potential to be a flex slot for Mono-White. The body is "reasonable" and the tax is pretty affective in Modern. If a list wants Thalia, Heretic Cathar, there might be a chance this takes some of the same slots (maybe).)
Deadeye Tracker: Surprisingly, I think this might be a viable (pun intended) target for Eldrazi and Taxes. One Drops have proven to be pretty important. Having a card that can filter cards, scale in size, and force removal from the opps could be great. Eldrazi And Taxes players should really, really, really look at addressing the mana issues with the list. That deck has access to so many great tools but punishes itself so much with the current configuration.
A Death-Cat's Sideboard Plan:
Recently, I have had an influx of people asking me for my sideboard planning. I tend to play "unconventional" Magic and look for mix-ups to adjust for the meta (see in example: Journey To Nowhere.) While I may not be reinventing the wheel or choosing a plan most will agree with, many have continuously asked about my personal sideboard strategy.
So without further adieu, "How to be a Death-Cat".
Precursor to building the SB:
Step 1: Jam (and track) as many games with your desired list. Find out how many games you are winning on draw/play with your main deck. The desired result is to be 50% better against any given deck at any given time with your main deck. While you play more games in the sideboard, you have access to a maximum of 15 cards in your SB. Having a fighting chance game one is critical to your overall win percentage. Have you ever noticed most people in Top 8 do not have amazing blow out wins but consistently win round over round. This is because a balanced deck will win across the field instead of head-hunting 2-3 meta decks.
Step 2: Use a trusted site such as: MtgTop 8 or Mtg Goldfish to determine what the top tier decks are. Observe how many decks have overlapping strategies. Do 3 decks in the meta all crumble to Rest In Peace? Is there a singular deck that just seems like its the only one that needs specific hate (Affinity). Use the information from Step 1 to determine if you even want to have additional tools against them. If you are 50%+ against them on play and draw, then why are you dedicating hate to the deck or the pilot. My earliest years of Magic have shown me sometimes we get tethered to how it feels to lose to the same player over and over again. Eventually, you want to stick it to that player... not the deck.
Step 3: Accept your losses. There are some decks that you will not beat unless you over commit to beating them. If you are playing against a deck that you are 20-40% on play/draw prior to boarding, Adding 2 cards to your SB is not worth the percentage points you would gain against other overlapping strategies. After every round in a major event, I count what cards in my SB came in and how many were drawn in the match. This will help you you track whether your sb choices are influential in you wining games.
Step 4: Change your sideboard based on what your results are telling you! If you have cards that have become pet sideboard cards, cut them! "I SAID CUT THEM!" lol. Modern is always changing. Cards are always being printed. Your match up percentages are changing every 3 months. Storm use to be a complete joke against DNT. Now, they have 8 Thalias/Storm Lords. Change your sideboards. Stop being stubborn.
Pre-Ixalan Sideboard: Here goes an example sideboard of mine (at the moment):
This sideboard was a result of all the things I described in the precursor section. I tracked my results and made changes as needed. (Gideon might need to be readjusted at the time of the post).
Lets give a mock run through 5 rounds to see if I have reasonable sideboard options. I am going to check a random tournament report on MTG Goldfish and see how our SB would have would perform. Link to Gauntlet
R1 vs UW Control.
SB Options: Gideon of the Trials, Oblivion Ring, Eidolon of Rheteric, Rest In Peace, Spellskite.
R2 vs Ad Nauseam (Skipped Jeskai due to redundancy).
SB Options: Gideon of the Trials, Oblivion Ring, Eidolon of Rhetoric, Spellskite, Burrenton Forge-Tender.
R3 vs Esper Gifts.
SB Options: Eidolon of Rhetoric, Rest In Peace, Spellskite, Sunlance, Journey To Nowhere.
R4 vs Bogle.
SB Options: Spellskite, Oblivion Ring.
R5 vs Affinity.
SB Options: Oblivion Ring, Spellskite, Journey to Nowhere, Sunlance, Burrenton Forge-Tender.
With these matches, data shows me that I can expect to run a 5-0 or 4-1 against the meta. The swingiest matches being Bogle and Affinity. The Gideon might be the shakiest card in my board according to what we are observing. Initially, Gideon was in the Board due to Smallpox and other randoms showing up in the meta. But, it might be time to turn those into Settle the Wreckage. And guess what! That would answer the shaky match ups we just analyzed.
While this is not a step by step into every tier match up, I hope it gives some insight to my SB building and why I feel that my unorthodox sb tends to do well. In the last year I have attended roughly 6-7 events and have placed top 8 in all of them. I think with more data we can all potentially continue to uncover great tools as metas keep pushing forward.
I wouldn't be caught dead running 22 lands in mono W, even with smuggler's copter (which I also hugely recommend).
I didn't have a chance to respond to this earlier, but 22 lands is probably the right number. There's a little bit of room to debate it, but I suggest you make the switch and never look back.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Hello there, DNT Squad! Let's dive right into this. We have become a Tier 1 deck in the last 6 months. There are two builds primarily responsible for this: Mono-White DNT & Eldrazi And Taxes. This is not to say other builds haven't had major success but the major meta share is from the aforementioned duo. The next step is to see if either of those lists got better with Ixalan, and to determine what specific cards will be utilized from the new set.
Ixalan Playables: [These cards have the potential of being used for Death And Taxes in the maindeck and/or sideboard].
Field of Ruin: This card seems to be the clear winner as most likely played card for our archetype. I am not sold on it taking over Tectonic Edge slots like some others have been thinking. I do believe that this could be the 8th and 9th colorless land slots.
Settle the Wreckage: Path of God, Wrath to Exile, Mass Path (or whatever!) This is very likely in contention with the Dusk/Dawn slots in Mono-White's board. Not having to lose your own team is great. Having to wait for an opponent to alpha swing might be problematic, though. I do like this card a lot and look forward to testing it.
Kinjalli's Sunwing: This card has potential to be a flex slot for Mono-White. The body is "reasonable" and the tax is pretty affective in Modern. If a list wants Thalia, Heretic Cathar, there might be a chance this takes some of the same slots (maybe).)
Deadeye Tracker: Surprisingly, I think this might be a viable (pun intended) target for Eldrazi and Taxes. One Drops have proven to be pretty important. Having a card that can filter cards, scale in size, and force removal from the opps could be great. Eldrazi And Taxes players should really, really, really look at addressing the mana issues with the list. That deck has access to so many great tools but punishes itself so much with the current configuration.
I'm just quoting this for truth.
I suspect that Field of Ruin won't take over the Tectonic Edge slot, but it may become the 8th or 9th colorless land (8th if you're playing maindeck Mindcensor, 9th otherwise).
Settle the Wreckage is going to give us an edge against aggressive strategies, especially against things like Merfolk and Zoo. I'm looking forward to this one.
It's probably unlikely that Kinjalli's Sunwing is going to take the slot of Thalia, Heretic Cathar because Thalia's ability to tax nonbasic lands is such a huge advantage in certain matchups, but the Sunwing's ability to fly will ensure that it connects more often. They're both good, but I think that Sunwing probably doesn't become better than Thalia until you're considering a third copy of Thalia.
Recently, I have had an influx of people asking me for my sideboard planning. I tend to play "unconventional" Magic and look for mix-ups to adjust for the meta (see in example: Journey To Nowhere.) While I may not be reinventing the wheel or choosing a plan most will agree with, many have continuously asked about my personal sideboard strategy.
So without further adieu, "How to be a Death-Cat".
Precursor to building the SB:
Step 1: Jam (and track) as many games with your desired list. Find out how many games you are winning on draw/play with your main deck. The desired result is to be 50% better against any given deck at any given time with your main deck. While you play more games in the sideboard, you have access to a maximum of 15 cards in your SB. Having a fighting chance game one is critical to your overall win percentage. Have you ever noticed most people in Top 8 do not have amazing blow out wins but consistently win round over round. This is because a balanced deck will win across the field instead of head-hunting 2-3 meta decks.
Step 2: Use a trusted site such as: MtgTop 8 or Mtg Goldfish to determine what the top tier decks are. Observe how many decks have overlapping strategies. Do 3 decks in the meta all crumble to Rest In Peace? Is there a singular deck that just seems like its the only one that needs specific hate (Affinity). Use the information from Step 1 to determine if you even want to have additional tools against them. If you are 50%+ against them on play and draw, then why are you dedicating hate to the deck or the pilot. My earliest years of Magic have shown me sometimes we get tethered to how it feels to lose to the same player over and over again. Eventually, you want to stick it to that player... not the deck.
Step 3: Accept your losses. There are some decks that you will not beat unless you over commit to beating them. If you are playing against a deck that you are 20-40% on play/draw prior to boarding, Adding 2 cards to your SB is not worth the percentage points you would gain against other overlapping strategies. After every round in a major event, I count what cards in my SB came in and how many were drawn in the match. This will help you you track whether your sb choices are influential in you wining games.
Step 4: Change your sideboard based on what your results are telling you! If you have cards that have become pet sideboard cards, cut them! "I SAID CUT THEM!" lol. Modern is always changing. Cards are always being printed. Your match up percentages are changing every 3 months. Storm use to be a complete joke against DNT. Now, they have 8 Thalias/Storm Lords. Change your sideboards. Stop being stubborn.
Pre-Ixalan Sideboard: Here goes an example sideboard of mine (at the moment):
This sideboard was a result of all the things I described in the precursor section. I tracked my results and made changes as needed. (Gideon might need to be readjusted at the time of the post).
Lets give a mock run through 5 rounds to see if I have reasonable sideboard options. I am going to check a random tournament report on MTG Goldfish and see how our SB would have would perform. Link to Gauntlet
R1 vs UW Control.
SB Options: Gideon of the Trials, Oblivion Ring, Eidolon of Rheteric, Rest In Peace, Spellskite.
R2 vs Ad Nauseam (Skipped Jeskai due to redundancy).
SB Options: Gideon of the Trials, Oblivion Ring, Eidolon of Rhetoric, Spellskite, Burrenton Forge-Tender.
R3 vs Esper Gifts.
SB Options: Eidolon of Rhetoric, Rest In Peace, Spellskite, Sunlance, Journey To Nowhere.
R4 vs Bogle.
SB Options: Spellskite, Oblivion Ring.
R5 vs Affinity.
SB Options: Oblivion Ring, Spellskite, Journey to Nowhere, Sunlance, Burrenton Forge-Tender.
With these matches, data shows me that I can expect to run a 5-0 or 4-1 against the meta. The swingiest matches being Bogle and Affinity. The Gideon might be the shakiest card in my board according to what we are observing. Initially, Gideon was in the Board due to Smallpox and other randoms showing up in the meta. But, it might be time to turn those into Settle the Wreckage. And guess what! That would answer the shaky match ups we just analyzed.
While this is not a step by step into every tier match up, I hope it gives some insight to my SB building and why I feel that my unorthodox sb tends to do well. In the last year I have attended roughly 6-7 events and have placed top 8 in all of them. I think with more data we can all potentially continue to uncover great tools as metas keep pushing forward.
Again, I'm mostly just quoting this for truth. Catmix and I tend to agree on general D&T strategy, including building a sideboard.
My 75 probably looks pretty similar to Catmix's 75, but I keep some of the core taxers in the sideboard. In the maindeck, I run 3x Thalia, and a 2/2 Arbiter/Mindcensor split. My 2x Gideon of the Trials is in the maindeck. In our sideboards, Blessed Alliance and Spellskite fill very similar roles, putting in work against Bogles, Infect, and Burn.
The major difference between our sideboards is that I'm running Shining Shoal in his Journey to Nowhere slot. I really like Journey to Nowhere and I may end up switching to it. Shoal is great out of the sideboard though because most opponents don't expect it and it can cause major blowouts.
I've said it before, but it's worth repeating: Catmix knows what he's doing.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I wouldn't be caught dead running 22 lands in mono W, even with smuggler's copter (which I also hugely recommend).
I didn't have a chance to respond to this earlier, but 22 lands is probably the right number. There's a little bit of room to debate it, but I suggest you make the switch and never look back.
Smuggler's copter helps sift through lands (or find them), but the issue has more to do with upping my keepable openers. I've extensively tested both 22 and 23 in an assortment of builds, and I tend to prefer 23, altho it depends on the curve and build of course. But for mono W, I believe 23 to be the correct number if you're running something close to the stock build. Of course some of our land choices affect this decision as well. Having 4x horizon canopy for instance that flooding is reduced. In my opinion, such a list is able to both have the optimal amount of good starting hands while also not concerning itself too heavily with flooding.
Of course, we're arguing over a fairly small percentage (I'm sure you have the numbers. I don't have them on hand.), but I do think that 23 (and 4x canopy) is correct for a list resembling the stock mono W list.
I'm probably going to believe this sentiment even more so once we're trying to run a whopping 10x LD lands.
I wouldn't be caught dead running 22 lands in mono W, even with smuggler's copter (which I also hugely recommend).
I didn't have a chance to respond to this earlier, but 22 lands is probably the right number. There's a little bit of room to debate it, but I suggest you make the switch and never look back.
Smuggler's copter helps sift through lands (or find them), but the issue has more to do with upping my keepable openers. I've extensively tested both 22 and 23 in an assortment of builds, and I tend to prefer 23, altho it depends on the curve and build of course. But for mono W, I believe 23 to be the correct number if you're running something close to the stock build. Of course some of our land choices affect this decision as well. Having 4x horizon canopy for instance that flooding is reduced. In my opinion, such a list is able to both have the optimal amount of good starting hands while also not concerning itself too heavily with flooding.
Of course, we're arguing over a fairly small percentage (I'm sure you have the numbers. I don't have them on hand.), but I do think that 23 (and 4x canopy) is correct for a list resembling the stock mono W list.
I'm probably going to believe this sentiment even more so once we're trying to run a whopping 10x LD lands.
The weirdest part about this discussion is that you and I have access to the same set of numbers. I can virtually guarantee that 23 lands with 4x Horizon Canopy is not the optimal way to build a mono-white manabase, and especially so if the deciding factor is keepable openers. Keepable openers are a function of probabilistic certainty; they're a set of numbers that you can't easily argue with.
If you were optimizing for something like T3/T4 land destruction plays, it would be much harder to reach a consensus. But given the criteria you're using, your conclusion only makes sense if you're aggressively cracking utility lands, in which case you should probably be closer to 24 or 25 lands anyway.
It's possible that you're simply piloting the deck to more grindy games than I am, but I tend to want to draw more gas than cantrips. If I can swap out a cantrip for more gas, I'm going to try to do it. That 4th Horizon Canopy for a 38th spell seems like an easy exchange given the difference in the probability of a keepable opener.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I wouldn't be caught dead running 22 lands in mono W, even with smuggler's copter (which I also hugely recommend).
I didn't have a chance to respond to this earlier, but 22 lands is probably the right number. There's a little bit of room to debate it, but I suggest you make the switch and never look back.
Smuggler's copter helps sift through lands (or find them), but the issue has more to do with upping my keepable openers. I've extensively tested both 22 and 23 in an assortment of builds, and I tend to prefer 23, altho it depends on the curve and build of course. But for mono W, I believe 23 to be the correct number if you're running something close to the stock build. Of course some of our land choices affect this decision as well. Having 4x horizon canopy for instance that flooding is reduced. In my opinion, such a list is able to both have the optimal amount of good starting hands while also not concerning itself too heavily with flooding.
Of course, we're arguing over a fairly small percentage (I'm sure you have the numbers. I don't have them on hand.), but I do think that 23 (and 4x canopy) is correct for a list resembling the stock mono W list.
I'm probably going to believe this sentiment even more so once we're trying to run a whopping 10x LD lands.
The weirdest part about this discussion is that you and I have access to the same set of numbers. I can virtually guarantee that 23 lands with 4x Horizon Canopy is not the optimal way to build a mono-white manabase, and especially so if the deciding factor is keepable openers. Keepable openers are a function of probabilistic certainty; they're a set of numbers that you can't easily argue with.
If you were optimizing for something like T3/T4 land destruction plays, it would be much harder to reach a consensus. But given the criteria you're using, your conclusion only makes sense if you're aggressively cracking utility lands, in which case you should probably be closer to 24 or 25 lands anyway.
It's possible that you're simply piloting the deck to more grindy games than I am, but I tend to want to draw more gas than cantrips. If I can swap out a cantrip for more gas, I'm going to try to do it. That 4th Horizon Canopy for a 38th spell seems like an easy exchange given the difference in the probability of a keepable opener.
Perhaps we're looking at this in a different way, but a keepable opener can mean a lot of different things. For instance if you know what you're playing against, you might try to mulligan to find good cards for the MUs, but I don't think that's what either of us mean as we're talking about land count. There are 2 scenarios in my mind that lands might not make your opener keepable.
1) Too many lands. This would mean 5+ lands in the opener. if you have 2 cards that are good in the MU and some of your lands are utility in either the form of a man land, redraw, or LD, you might be able to keep a hand that has 4-5 lands, but I don't think any player would want to keep a hand that had 6-7 lands in it.
2) Too few lands. This is where you simply can't keep the hand because you can't cast your cards. This is likely going to be 2 or fewer lands. While our deck has aether vial which obviously helps to mitigate this issue and let us keep otherwise poor 1 landers, generally you can't keep a hand that has 2 lands and mono 3-4 drops. Another possible scenario would involve color screw. For mono W, this might mean finding something like 2x tec edges and then a bunch of cards that require a colored source.
Keeping all that in mind, I mulligan far more hands from issue #2 than issue #1. That's not to say that it never happens, but it happens much less. Specifically, I'll see hands that have 1 lands and no vial or hands with 0 lands.
So, while you're right that that extra canopy could be spell and not a land which is obviously good in the late game, I'd much rather be able to play the game more often at the start than have the potential of flooding out later. Your opening 7 affects the course of the game more than most any other factor. Having 4 of lands that can be redraws to find gas thus makes sense in this context. In this way you get to have more keepable starts in seeing enough lands as well as being willing to keep those 4-5 landers given redraws. Similarly, in the late game, the canopy helps you get to gas.
Play style may have something to do with this as well. I might be more willing to fire off GQs/crack canopies, but even so I think that doesn't have much to do with a "keepable 7."
Perhaps we're looking at this in a different way, but a keepable opener can mean a lot of different things. For instance if you know what you're playing against, you might try to mulligan to find good cards for the MUs, but I don't think that's what either of us mean as we're talking about land count. There are 2 scenarios in my mind that lands might not make your opener keepable.
1) Too many lands. This would mean 5+ lands in the opener. if you have 2 cards that are good in the MU and some of your lands are utility in either the form of a man land, redraw, or LD, you might be able to keep a hand that has 4-5 lands, but I don't think any player would want to keep a hand that had 6-7 lands in it.
2) Too few lands. This is where you simply can't keep the hand because you can't cast your cards. This is likely going to be 2 or fewer lands. While our deck has aether vial which obviously helps to mitigate this issue and let us keep otherwise poor 1 landers, generally you can't keep a hand that has 2 lands and mono 3-4 drops. Another possible scenario would involve color screw. For mono W, this might mean finding something like 2x tec edges and then a bunch of cards that require a colored source.
Keeping all that in mind, I mulligan far more hands from issue #2 than issue #1. That's not to say that it never happens, but it happens much less. Specifically, I'll see hands that have 1 lands and no vial or hands with 0 lands.
So, while you're right that that extra canopy could be spell and not a land which is obviously good in the late game, I'd much rather be able to play the game more often at the start than have the potential of flooding out later. Your opening 7 affects the course of the game more than most any other factor. Having 4 of lands that can be redraws to find gas thus makes sense in this context. In this way you get to have more keepable starts in seeing enough lands as well as being willing to keep those 4-5 landers given redraws. Similarly, in the late game, the canopy helps you get to gas.
Play style may have something to do with this as well. I might be more willing to fire off GQs/crack canopies, but even so I think that doesn't have much to do with a "keepable 7."
You and I are talking about the same thing, except the math doesn't agree with you. The ideal number of lands in your deck to maximize your chances of having an opening 7 with 3 or 4 lands in hand, is 30 lands. I'm going to suggest to you that this really isn't the circumstance you want to optimize for.
For comparison, if you wanted to run the same analysis except for 2 or 3 lands in your opening 7, the ideal number of lands in your deck would be 21. And if you wanted to run that same analysis again with 2, 3, or 4 lands in your opening 7, the ideal number of lands in your deck would be 25.
It gets much, much more complicated when you start talking about color screw, because cards like Flickerwisp and Eldrazi Displacer are often only playable after the first few turns of the game anyway.
I know that the range of acceptable opening hands is hard to pin down, but I would almost always prefer an opener with two lands rather than four. You don't mind the four because you're hoping that at least one of them is a Canopy, but that deckbuilding approach is likely to cost you life, tempo, or both while you're curving out.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Hey, dude, first of all, congratz for yours 4-0!
Can you share your experience against the Jeskai and Affinity match ups?
What you side in and out in this matchs?
Thanks
W Death & Taxes W
WB Eldrazi & Taxes WB
BW BW Eldrazi BW
G Green Devotion G
RW Norin Sisters RW
GB Delirium Emrakul's end GB
Duel CmD
W Thalia, Guardian of Thraben W
BW Karlov BW
I'm playing Jeskai myself more than D&T these days; I'm not sure this is the right way to attack that deck. Most of your advice seems geared towards the heavy control versions rather than the more popular tempo types playing Geist of Saint Traft and significantly more burn. Your best card in this match-up is Vial, then little Thalia and Flicker/Resto/Displacer. Being able to drop a uncounterable creature at instant speed EOT with an early Thalia making removal a turn too slow puts Jeskai on their heels; if you can put a 4-5 turn clock on the field, save your flicker tricks to dodge removal. There's not much way for Jeskai to pick up card advantage outside of a perfect Electrolyze or a rare Supreme Verdict hitting several creatures so blanking a Bolt or Helix puts you massively ahead. Essentially you want to play the tempo game, just slightly faster than Jeskai can manage.
I am trying to do a BW D&T deck. I'm on a budget so Aether Vial and Thalia 1.0 is out of the question. Any suggestion as to how to run it? I'm assuming this for a base so far:
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Blade Splicer
3 Mirran Crusader
3 Flickerwisp
2 Wasteland Strangler
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Eldrazi Splicer
4 Fatal Push
4 Path to Exile
Lands
4 Plains
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Shambling Vent
3 Swamp
I don't know where else to start spell-wise and I am trying to place an order today so I can use it at a Modern PPTQ next Saturday. I was looking back on the other pages and there is a lot of Mono W Taxes decks but they have 4 Vials and 4 Thalia 1.0. Thanks guys.
Vial and thalia are key cards to the deck. With out them you will be a shadow of the overall power you could get.
That said I guess some combination of big thalia and vryn wingmare will be the best alternatives... Or maybe going hard on banisher priests and fiend hunter?
Also your mana might be brutal with out vials. WB DnT already has mana base issues so with out vial for the out I don't know how it will go. I am not trying to be negative just honest. I myself am only missing vials an Thalias for my paper version, trying to pick them up slowly, but I am just not playing it with out them personally.
Yeah, I see what you mean. Both versions are frequently referred to as "Jeskai Control", but he may have been specifically asking about the more controlling versions (only Snaps and a Gearhulk) rather than the more tempo Geist/Queller/Snaps version. I don't think that changes the plan of attack for D&T much though -- you still want Thalia, Vial, and a 4-5 turn clock over a couple creatures. Blank PTE and Electolyze with flicker tricks and that should put you ahead.
Hello Animar.
First of all, as others have said to you, it's really really difficult have a good D&T built without Thalia and Vial.
So, I would go to Vryn Wingmare playset and go to mono W because if the mana base of B/W is clunky with Vial, without Vial is going to be a nightmare. Also I would recommend try to maximize all the flickering effects to gain small advantages and the LD. Full playset of Displacers, Flickers and maybe a few Restos.
I'm going to leave here a list as an example.
4 Vryn Wingmare
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Blade Splicer
4 Flickerwisp
2 Fiend Hunter
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Restoration Angel
4 Path to Exile
2 Journey to Nowhere
2 Smuggler's Copter
22 Lands
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Tectonic Edge
4 Shefet Dunes
10 Plains
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Dusk/Down
3 Stony Silence
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Free spot
I hope this list gives you some ideas. I try to maintain it as budget as possible. Any doubts just write it down.
It seems like a cool option and could possibly be played 2 / 2 with tec edge.
Pauper: UdelverUthey slaughtered my deckTurn 6 Karn > Turn 2 Phage
xotug's list looks like a good start, but if you won't have Vial then going 4xResto 2xWisp like Jason Simard's GP Vancouver Vial-less Taxes list might be worth consideration.
Look through the last couple of pages we discussed it there.
I'm updating some information that has been asked of me! I am also going to update links below once I have had some time to test with Ixalan. Tomorrow night, if I can get the singles needed, I will stream with Ixalan in a league.
Feel free to private message me with any singles you would love to see tested! I'll try to pick them up.
-Catmix
Hello there, DNT Squad! Let's dive right into this. We have become a Tier 1 deck in the last 6 months. There are two builds primarily responsible for this: Mono-White DNT & Eldrazi And Taxes. This is not to say other builds haven't had major success but the major meta share is from the aforementioned duo. The next step is to see if either of those lists got better with Ixalan, and to determine what specific cards will be utilized from the new set.
Ixalan Playables:
[These cards have the potential of being used for Death And Taxes in the maindeck and/or sideboard].
Field of Ruin: This card seems to be the clear winner as most likely played card for our archetype. I am not sold on it taking over Tectonic Edge slots like some others have been thinking. I do believe that this could be the 8th and 9th colorless land slots.
Settle the Wreckage: Path of God, Wrath to Exile, Mass Path (or whatever!) This is very likely in contention with the Dusk/Dawn slots in Mono-White's board. Not having to lose your own team is great. Having to wait for an opponent to alpha swing might be problematic, though. I do like this card a lot and look forward to testing it.
Kinjalli's Sunwing: This card has potential to be a flex slot for Mono-White. The body is "reasonable" and the tax is pretty affective in Modern. If a list wants Thalia, Heretic Cathar, there might be a chance this takes some of the same slots (maybe).)
Deadeye Tracker: Surprisingly, I think this might be a viable (pun intended) target for Eldrazi and Taxes. One Drops have proven to be pretty important. Having a card that can filter cards, scale in size, and force removal from the opps could be great. Eldrazi And Taxes players should really, really, really look at addressing the mana issues with the list. That deck has access to so many great tools but punishes itself so much with the current configuration.
Recently, I have had an influx of people asking me for my sideboard planning. I tend to play "unconventional" Magic and look for mix-ups to adjust for the meta (see in example: Journey To Nowhere.) While I may not be reinventing the wheel or choosing a plan most will agree with, many have continuously asked about my personal sideboard strategy.
So without further adieu, "How to be a Death-Cat".
Precursor to building the SB:
Step 1: Jam (and track) as many games with your desired list. Find out how many games you are winning on draw/play with your main deck. The desired result is to be 50% better against any given deck at any given time with your main deck. While you play more games in the sideboard, you have access to a maximum of 15 cards in your SB. Having a fighting chance game one is critical to your overall win percentage. Have you ever noticed most people in Top 8 do not have amazing blow out wins but consistently win round over round. This is because a balanced deck will win across the field instead of head-hunting 2-3 meta decks.
Step 2: Use a trusted site such as: MtgTop 8 or Mtg Goldfish to determine what the top tier decks are. Observe how many decks have overlapping strategies. Do 3 decks in the meta all crumble to Rest In Peace? Is there a singular deck that just seems like its the only one that needs specific hate (Affinity). Use the information from Step 1 to determine if you even want to have additional tools against them. If you are 50%+ against them on play and draw, then why are you dedicating hate to the deck or the pilot. My earliest years of Magic have shown me sometimes we get tethered to how it feels to lose to the same player over and over again. Eventually, you want to stick it to that player... not the deck.
Step 3: Accept your losses. There are some decks that you will not beat unless you over commit to beating them. If you are playing against a deck that you are 20-40% on play/draw prior to boarding, Adding 2 cards to your SB is not worth the percentage points you would gain against other overlapping strategies. After every round in a major event, I count what cards in my SB came in and how many were drawn in the match. This will help you you track whether your sb choices are influential in you wining games.
Step 4: Change your sideboard based on what your results are telling you! If you have cards that have become pet sideboard cards, cut them! "I SAID CUT THEM!" lol. Modern is always changing. Cards are always being printed. Your match up percentages are changing every 3 months. Storm use to be a complete joke against DNT. Now, they have 8 Thalias/Storm Lords. Change your sideboards. Stop being stubborn.
Pre-Ixalan Sideboard:
Here goes an example sideboard of mine (at the moment):
This sideboard was a result of all the things I described in the precursor section. I tracked my results and made changes as needed. (Gideon might need to be readjusted at the time of the post).
Lets give a mock run through 5 rounds to see if I have reasonable sideboard options. I am going to check a random tournament report on MTG Goldfish and see how our SB would have would perform. Link to Gauntlet
R1 vs UW Control.
SB Options: Gideon of the Trials, Oblivion Ring, Eidolon of Rheteric, Rest In Peace, Spellskite.
R2 vs Ad Nauseam (Skipped Jeskai due to redundancy).
SB Options: Gideon of the Trials, Oblivion Ring, Eidolon of Rhetoric, Spellskite, Burrenton Forge-Tender.
R3 vs Esper Gifts.
SB Options: Eidolon of Rhetoric, Rest In Peace, Spellskite, Sunlance, Journey To Nowhere.
R4 vs Bogle.
SB Options: Spellskite, Oblivion Ring.
R5 vs Affinity.
SB Options: Oblivion Ring, Spellskite, Journey to Nowhere, Sunlance, Burrenton Forge-Tender.
With these matches, data shows me that I can expect to run a 5-0 or 4-1 against the meta. The swingiest matches being Bogle and Affinity. The Gideon might be the shakiest card in my board according to what we are observing. Initially, Gideon was in the Board due to Smallpox and other randoms showing up in the meta. But, it might be time to turn those into Settle the Wreckage. And guess what! That would answer the shaky match ups we just analyzed.
While this is not a step by step into every tier match up, I hope it gives some insight to my SB building and why I feel that my unorthodox sb tends to do well. In the last year I have attended roughly 6-7 events and have placed top 8 in all of them. I think with more data we can all potentially continue to uncover great tools as metas keep pushing forward.
WWModern Death And Taxes (w/ Militia Bugler) (JUL '19)
GWModern Maverick (JUL '19)
WBCatmix on Twitch!
WWCatmix on Youtube
Thank you catmix. This is really helpful
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
I suspect that Field of Ruin won't take over the Tectonic Edge slot, but it may become the 8th or 9th colorless land (8th if you're playing maindeck Mindcensor, 9th otherwise).
Settle the Wreckage is going to give us an edge against aggressive strategies, especially against things like Merfolk and Zoo. I'm looking forward to this one.
It's probably unlikely that Kinjalli's Sunwing is going to take the slot of Thalia, Heretic Cathar because Thalia's ability to tax nonbasic lands is such a huge advantage in certain matchups, but the Sunwing's ability to fly will ensure that it connects more often. They're both good, but I think that Sunwing probably doesn't become better than Thalia until you're considering a third copy of Thalia.
Again, I'm mostly just quoting this for truth. Catmix and I tend to agree on general D&T strategy, including building a sideboard.
My current sideboard looks like this:
2 Leonin Arbiter
2 Rest in Peace
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Sunlance
2 Shining Shoal
1 Blessed Alliance
The major difference between our sideboards is that I'm running Shining Shoal in his Journey to Nowhere slot. I really like Journey to Nowhere and I may end up switching to it. Shoal is great out of the sideboard though because most opponents don't expect it and it can cause major blowouts.
I've said it before, but it's worth repeating: Catmix knows what he's doing.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
Smuggler's copter helps sift through lands (or find them), but the issue has more to do with upping my keepable openers. I've extensively tested both 22 and 23 in an assortment of builds, and I tend to prefer 23, altho it depends on the curve and build of course. But for mono W, I believe 23 to be the correct number if you're running something close to the stock build. Of course some of our land choices affect this decision as well. Having 4x horizon canopy for instance that flooding is reduced. In my opinion, such a list is able to both have the optimal amount of good starting hands while also not concerning itself too heavily with flooding.
Of course, we're arguing over a fairly small percentage (I'm sure you have the numbers. I don't have them on hand.), but I do think that 23 (and 4x canopy) is correct for a list resembling the stock mono W list.
I'm probably going to believe this sentiment even more so once we're trying to run a whopping 10x LD lands.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
If you were optimizing for something like T3/T4 land destruction plays, it would be much harder to reach a consensus. But given the criteria you're using, your conclusion only makes sense if you're aggressively cracking utility lands, in which case you should probably be closer to 24 or 25 lands anyway.
It's possible that you're simply piloting the deck to more grindy games than I am, but I tend to want to draw more gas than cantrips. If I can swap out a cantrip for more gas, I'm going to try to do it. That 4th Horizon Canopy for a 38th spell seems like an easy exchange given the difference in the probability of a keepable opener.
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Perhaps we're looking at this in a different way, but a keepable opener can mean a lot of different things. For instance if you know what you're playing against, you might try to mulligan to find good cards for the MUs, but I don't think that's what either of us mean as we're talking about land count. There are 2 scenarios in my mind that lands might not make your opener keepable.
1) Too many lands. This would mean 5+ lands in the opener. if you have 2 cards that are good in the MU and some of your lands are utility in either the form of a man land, redraw, or LD, you might be able to keep a hand that has 4-5 lands, but I don't think any player would want to keep a hand that had 6-7 lands in it.
2) Too few lands. This is where you simply can't keep the hand because you can't cast your cards. This is likely going to be 2 or fewer lands. While our deck has aether vial which obviously helps to mitigate this issue and let us keep otherwise poor 1 landers, generally you can't keep a hand that has 2 lands and mono 3-4 drops. Another possible scenario would involve color screw. For mono W, this might mean finding something like 2x tec edges and then a bunch of cards that require a colored source.
Keeping all that in mind, I mulligan far more hands from issue #2 than issue #1. That's not to say that it never happens, but it happens much less. Specifically, I'll see hands that have 1 lands and no vial or hands with 0 lands.
So, while you're right that that extra canopy could be spell and not a land which is obviously good in the late game, I'd much rather be able to play the game more often at the start than have the potential of flooding out later. Your opening 7 affects the course of the game more than most any other factor. Having 4 of lands that can be redraws to find gas thus makes sense in this context. In this way you get to have more keepable starts in seeing enough lands as well as being willing to keep those 4-5 landers given redraws. Similarly, in the late game, the canopy helps you get to gas.
Play style may have something to do with this as well. I might be more willing to fire off GQs/crack canopies, but even so I think that doesn't have much to do with a "keepable 7."
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
For comparison, if you wanted to run the same analysis except for 2 or 3 lands in your opening 7, the ideal number of lands in your deck would be 21. And if you wanted to run that same analysis again with 2, 3, or 4 lands in your opening 7, the ideal number of lands in your deck would be 25.
It gets much, much more complicated when you start talking about color screw, because cards like Flickerwisp and Eldrazi Displacer are often only playable after the first few turns of the game anyway.
I know that the range of acceptable opening hands is hard to pin down, but I would almost always prefer an opener with two lands rather than four. You don't mind the four because you're hoping that at least one of them is a Canopy, but that deckbuilding approach is likely to cost you life, tempo, or both while you're curving out.
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