The combo is NOT good against Living End. They have instant speed 3 mana wrath of god.
Also your bad match-ups are already shored up by RIP and Ceremonious rejection.
How is the combo good against Thought-Knot seer? You aren't even running a playset of the combo. YOu aren't too likely to draw both pieces early (and keep them).
Guys, how does Jeskai Nahiri beat Eldrazi Tron? What's the plan? Are we the beatdown or the control? I tried boarding in Geist and going beatdown once, and that was a mistake, I think, since they can just block geist.
Guys, how does Jeskai Nahiri beat Eldrazi Tron? What's the plan? Are we the beatdown or the control? I tried boarding in Geist and going beatdown once, and that was a mistake, I think, since they can just block geist.
You are control. The matchup is decent if you have the right cards for it; I have 4 spell quellers and 4 spreading seas which are excellent against them. Counterspells are strong against them; don't side them out just because they have a singleton cavern of souls. A way to deal with chalice of the void is really good, in general some amount of artifact hate is decent (but not more than ~2 pieces Id say). You use Nahiri aggressively to exile their creatures, playing her into two creatures and exiling one is often a good play.
Ceremoneous Rejection is probably the best card we have against them
Played a Jeskai Control list in a 97 player PPTQ today.
7 Rounds with a cut to top 8.
Couldn't make the RPTQ so ended up splitting in the finals.
Only loss was to affinity r6.
Played a Jeskai Control list in a 97 player PPTQ today.
7 Rounds with a cut to top 8.
Couldn't make the RPTQ so ended up splitting in the finals.
Only loss was to affinity r6.
Played a Jeskai Control list in a 97 player PPTQ today.
7 Rounds with a cut to top 8.
Couldn't make the RPTQ so ended up splitting in the finals.
Only loss was to affinity r6.
How was the blue bird compared to the more common Vendillion Clique? Was all the rounds against strong decks?
I saw Obstructionist 3 times throughout the day. All 3 times it was a 3/1 flash flyer. One time I played it through my own blood moon so there was that but I didn't see it enough to make a verdict.
Matchups were
Classic Jund
Grixis Deaths Shadow
Tron (only 1 game)
Burn(once in Swiss and again in top 8)
Titanshift(once in Swiss and a different titanshift player in top 8)
Affinity(only loss in Swiss and split with him in top 8)
Guys during this "reborn" of control i came across many lists that almost forget about Spell Snare. So here's my question, it still worth the 2 spots in main or i could replace 1 (or both) with some other counters? They were very handy in many games though.
Right now that's my counter suite: 2 Snare, 2 Knot, 2 Remands, 3 CC, 1 Ojutai's command (that's my flex spot in main).
I was thinking about a possible switch like -1 Snare - 1 OC / + 1 Knot + 1 Leak
I just bought two yesterday at GP Atlanta and actually cut the remands for them. I haven't tested them extensively, but so far they're promising. I played a few casual games against my affinity buddy and they were great for stopping turn 1 and 2 plays that they rely on to snowball out of control. Vault skirge off of a turn 1 springleaf drum, in this particular case. I'm also looking forward to having them be either definitively good or bad in most matchups, so that my games 2 and 3 become stronger. Against burn, for example, spell snare seems decidedly great while against eldrazi tron it seems decidedly terrible. The only places that it seems medium are the decks that run only a few two-drops, like Grixis Death's Shadow and GR Valakut.
I disagree with you on rip, I do in fact bring it in against GDS. It might turn off our snapcasters but it hits them MUCH harder. And as with any symmetrical effect, you being the one who decides when to play it makes it asymmetrical. RIP comes in against a range of decks and is much more useful than just vs dredge and living end.
I think your transformative sideboard idea is intriguing but I am also not sold that it is the catch-all answer for all combo matchups. Especially since, although some decks really have no way to stop a combo like that, a larger amount of decks will, so game 3 becomes a guessing game of how they sideboard that I don't think is in your favour.
As for the spell snare discussion, I currently like exsctly one; as a 2 of I found the card often stranded or being used on mediocre targets like a mind stone or a creature I could just as well just burn. With just one you can more easily hold onto it for when it is really good, and your opponent still has to try to play around it (or play into it) as opposed to when you run zero.
How do people feel about Ceremonius Rejection? Is it worth running in the Stony Silence slots? As I see it Stony is a much better hoser but Ceremonius has the chance to hit Eldrazi tron a bit.
How do people feel about Ceremonius Rejection? Is it worth running in the Stony Silence slots? As I see it Stony is a much better hoser but Ceremonius has the chance to hit Eldrazi tron a bit.
I play both. Stony silence is fantastic against affinity and lantern, but not much else. Ceremonious rejection hits tron, lantern, and affinity. Against affinity they play different roles. Stony Silence makes their stuff worse, whereas rejection makes your interaction more efficient.
I wanted to start this discussion (and hope it can be had in civilized manner); what do you all think is currently the best jeskai version to bring to a large competitive event? Nahiri, flash, drawgo, geist?
I wanted to start this discussion (and hope it can be had in civilized manner); what do you all think is currently the best jeskai version to bring to a large competitive event? Nahiri, flash, drawgo, geist?
I would bring Draw Go to the next event I went to if I decided to play Jeskai, but that's more personal preference. I do think that you should play what you have the most experience playing, but if you have experience with Draw Go there are very few unwinnable matchups.
Imo, Id bring a queller list if I had to play jeskai,and put personal preference aside.
Id rank them:
Queller
Nahiri
Saheeli
Geist
Draw go
If we expand the list to any blue/control deck, it gets really murky, but for jeskai, thats how I feel.
I'm never a fan of taking drawgo decks to big events, the length of the matches does weigh in and a draw is almost just as bad as a loss. Having to go 6-8 rounds without much down time inbetween is also incredibly taxing.
I personally think lists with queller are currently the best jeskai lists, that card fixes a lot of poor matchups. Right now I am still on my nahiri list with 4x queller main, as I always feel pure flash lists lack a proper clock if not backed up by a lot of burn spells
With rhe Queller/flash lists essentially functioning as burn decks with better hand and stack manipulation, is there an argument for running Vapor Snag in lieu of some number of Paths?
Additionally, should we try to find space for Thought Scour to further power Snapcaster and Logic Knot, or maybe a few Boros Charms as chunky burn + Queller protection?
With rhe Queller/flash lists essentially functioning as burn decks with better hand and stack manipulation, is there an argument for running Vapor Snag in lieu of some number of Paths?
Additionally, should we try to find space for Thought Scour to further power Snapcaster and Logic Knot, or maybe a few Boros Charms as chunky burn + Queller protection?
I think that the list you're describing is not Jeskai queller/flash/draw-go/Nahiri, but rather a clunky version of jeskai tempo/burn. Perhaps something like this could work with delver or so...
To answer your question, no I don't think it's worth it to replace path with the suboptimal V.snag, it's way worse than Remand. Thought scour is bad because we want the spell we have in our deck and we have only 4 creatures to rebuy them from GY. Grixis, on the other hand has delve creatures, snaps and K. command that take advantage from GY.
On the Tamada list i strongly dislike the 4 of Lyze, from my experience 1/2 is the maxium you could go, as 4 of they tend to be only deal 2 on face draw 1. I rather pack 2 Supreme Verdicts and/or more counters.
As for your thoughts - Path is clearly the stronger card, but is less synergistic with our actual plan to win the game than Snag is. All of these Queller lists are tempo decks, regardless, and how long you want to try and drag the game out is certainly debatable. Snag is a much better early game play too, makes Logic Knot better, and is about as effective as path in most of the situations you'd use path (Tasigur, big Eldrazi, Affinity threats that matter, etc). Sometimes you just really need something gone though, you don't have the means to pressure them with their tempo loss, and your bolts can't handle it... so maybe a 2/2 or 3/1 split in some capacity is the better plan.
Electrolyze is def the worst dmg for mana card, so I agree 4x is pretty bad. At the very least cutting one for Clique seems right, and cutting more seems better. In this list I took out 2 CitP lands and 2 Cryptics for 4 Thought Scour. With less 4 drops and more cantrips, 22 land should be fine. Regardless however of the actual efficacy of doing this, or adding Scours in general, your statement that Scour is bad because it mills you is totally wrong. Between Snapcaster and Logic Knot, there is plenty of upside to the mill, and losing 2 cards from your library that are completely hidden information is not a strong case against it. Most of the cards in this deck are there in multiples or do similar things anyways, and you are just as likely to draw a good card off of a scour as you would off any other blind cantrip.
Ultimately, there are myriad ways to build a deck with Jeskai colors in Modern. Playing more expensive cards that provide greater CA is certainly something you could do (Verdict, Jace/Gideons, Revelation), as is playing combo pieces (Resto/Kiki, Saheeli, Nahiri), but if you are piloting a deck with a bunch of tempo flash dudes and 12+ burn spells that are only occasionally effective as removal and are just as likely to go to the dome...perhaps trying to speed up that process and play lower casting cost cards is what the deck should actually be doing.
Also your bad match-ups are already shored up by RIP and Ceremonious rejection.
How is the combo good against Thought-Knot seer? You aren't even running a playset of the combo. YOu aren't too likely to draw both pieces early (and keep them).
You are control. The matchup is decent if you have the right cards for it; I have 4 spell quellers and 4 spreading seas which are excellent against them. Counterspells are strong against them; don't side them out just because they have a singleton cavern of souls. A way to deal with chalice of the void is really good, in general some amount of artifact hate is decent (but not more than ~2 pieces Id say). You use Nahiri aggressively to exile their creatures, playing her into two creatures and exiling one is often a good play.
Ceremoneous Rejection is probably the best card we have against them
7 Rounds with a cut to top 8.
Couldn't make the RPTQ so ended up splitting in the finals.
Only loss was to affinity r6.
3x Celestial Colonnade
1x Desolate Lighthouse
4x Flooded Strand
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Fortress
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Irrigated Farmland
3x Island
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
1x Sulfur Falls
Creatures
1x Nimble Obstructionist
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Torrential Gearhulk
1x Censor
4x Cryptic Command
1x Electrolyze
2x Lightning Bolt
2x Lightning Helix
3x Logic Knot
1x Mana Leak
1x Negate
4x Path to Exile
1x Secure the Wastes
2x Sphinx's Revelation
2x Think Twice
Sorceries
3x Serum Visions
1x Supreme Verdict
Artifacts
1x Engineered Explosives
Planeswalkers
1x Ajani Vengeant
1x Anger of the Gods
2x Blood Moon
1x Celestial Purge
2x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Stony Silence
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Timely Reinforcements
1x Vendilion Clique
Visit the Typing Test and try!
How was the blue bird compared to the more common Vendillion Clique? Was all the rounds against strong decks?
I saw Obstructionist 3 times throughout the day. All 3 times it was a 3/1 flash flyer. One time I played it through my own blood moon so there was that but I didn't see it enough to make a verdict.
Matchups were
Classic Jund
Grixis Deaths Shadow
Tron (only 1 game)
Burn(once in Swiss and again in top 8)
Titanshift(once in Swiss and a different titanshift player in top 8)
Affinity(only loss in Swiss and split with him in top 8)
Visit the Typing Test and try!
I just bought two yesterday at GP Atlanta and actually cut the remands for them. I haven't tested them extensively, but so far they're promising. I played a few casual games against my affinity buddy and they were great for stopping turn 1 and 2 plays that they rely on to snowball out of control. Vault skirge off of a turn 1 springleaf drum, in this particular case. I'm also looking forward to having them be either definitively good or bad in most matchups, so that my games 2 and 3 become stronger. Against burn, for example, spell snare seems decidedly great while against eldrazi tron it seems decidedly terrible. The only places that it seems medium are the decks that run only a few two-drops, like Grixis Death's Shadow and GR Valakut.
I think your transformative sideboard idea is intriguing but I am also not sold that it is the catch-all answer for all combo matchups. Especially since, although some decks really have no way to stop a combo like that, a larger amount of decks will, so game 3 becomes a guessing game of how they sideboard that I don't think is in your favour.
As for the spell snare discussion, I currently like exsctly one; as a 2 of I found the card often stranded or being used on mediocre targets like a mind stone or a creature I could just as well just burn. With just one you can more easily hold onto it for when it is really good, and your opponent still has to try to play around it (or play into it) as opposed to when you run zero.
I play both. Stony silence is fantastic against affinity and lantern, but not much else. Ceremonious rejection hits tron, lantern, and affinity. Against affinity they play different roles. Stony Silence makes their stuff worse, whereas rejection makes your interaction more efficient.
I would bring Draw Go to the next event I went to if I decided to play Jeskai, but that's more personal preference. I do think that you should play what you have the most experience playing, but if you have experience with Draw Go there are very few unwinnable matchups.
UWR Control
BR Hollow One
Id rank them:
Queller
Nahiri
Saheeli
Geist
Draw go
If we expand the list to any blue/control deck, it gets really murky, but for jeskai, thats how I feel.
I personally think lists with queller are currently the best jeskai lists, that card fixes a lot of poor matchups. Right now I am still on my nahiri list with 4x queller main, as I always feel pure flash lists lack a proper clock if not backed up by a lot of burn spells
4x Spell Queller
4 Serum Visions
4x Cryptic Command
4x Electrolyze
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
4x Logic Knot
4x Path to Exile
4x Flooded Strand
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Spirebluff Canal
1x Steam Vents
1x Dispel
3x Grim Lavamancer
1x Jace Beleren
1x Negate
4x Spreading Seas
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Wear
I don't agree with some of his SB choices, but that's the basic list.
UWR Control
BR Hollow One
Additionally, should we try to find space for Thought Scour to further power Snapcaster and Logic Knot, or maybe a few Boros Charms as chunky burn + Queller protection?
I dunno, I kinda like the way this looks :
4x Spell Queller
1x Vendilion Clique
4x Serum Visions
4x Thought Scour
2x Cryptic Command
3x Electrolyze
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Lightning Helix
1x Boros Charm
4x Logic Knot
4x Vapor Snag
4x Flooded Strand
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Spirebluff Canal
1x Steam Vents
As for your thoughts - Path is clearly the stronger card, but is less synergistic with our actual plan to win the game than Snag is. All of these Queller lists are tempo decks, regardless, and how long you want to try and drag the game out is certainly debatable. Snag is a much better early game play too, makes Logic Knot better, and is about as effective as path in most of the situations you'd use path (Tasigur, big Eldrazi, Affinity threats that matter, etc). Sometimes you just really need something gone though, you don't have the means to pressure them with their tempo loss, and your bolts can't handle it... so maybe a 2/2 or 3/1 split in some capacity is the better plan.
Electrolyze is def the worst dmg for mana card, so I agree 4x is pretty bad. At the very least cutting one for Clique seems right, and cutting more seems better. In this list I took out 2 CitP lands and 2 Cryptics for 4 Thought Scour. With less 4 drops and more cantrips, 22 land should be fine. Regardless however of the actual efficacy of doing this, or adding Scours in general, your statement that Scour is bad because it mills you is totally wrong. Between Snapcaster and Logic Knot, there is plenty of upside to the mill, and losing 2 cards from your library that are completely hidden information is not a strong case against it. Most of the cards in this deck are there in multiples or do similar things anyways, and you are just as likely to draw a good card off of a scour as you would off any other blind cantrip.
Ultimately, there are myriad ways to build a deck with Jeskai colors in Modern. Playing more expensive cards that provide greater CA is certainly something you could do (Verdict, Jace/Gideons, Revelation), as is playing combo pieces (Resto/Kiki, Saheeli, Nahiri), but if you are piloting a deck with a bunch of tempo flash dudes and 12+ burn spells that are only occasionally effective as removal and are just as likely to go to the dome...perhaps trying to speed up that process and play lower casting cost cards is what the deck should actually be doing.