I'm dropping down to 3 Cryptics, and going 3 Field of Ruin. After I get some games in and tweak things we will see. I kind of worry about the mana base, I always worry about the mana base, as flooding tilts me too much to be reasonable. :]
3 Field of Ruin is suuuuuper greedy in a deck with logic knot, lightning helix, verdict, and cryptic.
also im not sure im on board with the number of 4 drops im seeing in these lists. 3-4 cryptics + 2-3 jace AND 2 verdicts? get ready to have your teeth kicked in by run of the mill aggro decks.
then again maybe the meta slows down and it works out.
as for big mana matchups - jace doesnt really change anything. racing and tempo plays while hoping your draw is better than theirs. v-clique and geist are typically good threats
also i expect jeskai with jace will be the weakest of the blue based variants when considering the mirrors. for instance UBx decks with jace should be an unfavorable matchup
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
what i will need to understand is the game plan for the Big Mana decks like Tron and Scapeshift where I no longer have access to Spreading Seas. Or do we just submit to an unfavourable matchup and try to burn them out?
There are a couple of ways to do this. First and foremost you have Field of Ruin which will help.
You aslo play a decent amount of countermagic. Post board you can have 3-4 Cryptic, 2-3 Logic Knot, 1-2 Negate, 1-2 Counterflux, and 1-2 Disdainful Stroke, and possibly also a Dispel - all of these are excellent against Scapeshift and Breach based big mana decks.
Against R/G Tron, B/G Tron, you can use all the same counters except Negate and Dispel, but you gain 1-2 Ceremonious Rejection. All of these will help to prevent most of their haymakers (Karn, Ugin, Wurmcoil, Ulamog)
If you're really worries about those Tron matches, you can also play a couple of Surgical Extraction and possibly a Crucible of Worlds to help the matchup.
Eldrazi Tron is more aggro and plays much differently than the big mana tron decks. You'll rely heavily on Path, Supreme Verdict, and Cryptic Command to stay alive. Post board you do get Ceremonious Rejection and things like Settle the Wreckage, Detention Sphere, and Runed Halo can help, but not a great match.
Thanks for the input. The argument for Opt over Serum Visions makes alot of sense and i am ecouraged to test it. Will try to get in some games and report my results for Science.
also im not sure im on board with the number of 4 drops im seeing in these lists. 3-4 cryptics + 2-3 jace AND 2 verdicts? get ready to have your teeth kicked in by run of the mill aggro decks.
Hrmmm. Cryptic Command and Supreme Verdict are pretty good against run of the mill aggro decks. Seems fine to me.
going forward i could see going down to 2 cryptics being the right decision. loading up on them seemed more like a necessary evil to me since they gave the deck a value engine to pull ahead in the mid to late game. however jace pretty much does that on his own
if people are trying out the 4 opt + jace plan i could see a singleton Entreat the Angels being a viable finisher.
also i think its a little early to dismiss more creature based shells. heavy geist shells have never appealed to me, but it wouldn't surprise me to see some jeskai flash variant crop up. walls, snaps, quellers/clique, and resto angels...that sorta thing
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I'm always the guy screaming about people having too high of a cmc in their decklists so I'll join in too
Especially with Jace gaining card advantage like no other, playing multiple cheap spells in a turn is often more powerful than playing one big mana spell. Personally I'm cut down to 2 Cryptics and 1 Verdict, although I am currently on 3 mainboard Jace mostly for testing purposes.
yeah i dunno. before jace it made sense to wade through the early/mid game as best you could, stabilize, then bury the opponent in snapcaster + cryptic value. whereas now you defend, stabilize, and then seal the deal with jace.
most of these decisions are contextually based on what you expect to face. however if anyone is looking to cut something for more early game action, i believe cryptic is the place to look
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going forward i could see going down to 2 cryptics being the right decision. loading up on them seemed more like a necessary evil to me since they gave the deck a value engine to pull ahead in the mid to late game. however jace pretty much does that on his own
if people are trying out the 4 opt + jace plan i could see a singleton Entreat the Angels being a viable finisher.
I could see going down to 2 Cryptics, but I'd need to be confident in the rest of my deck to do so; Cryptic is just so versatile!
I'm playing 1 Secure the Wastes and have begun tracking how often I draw it and wish it were Entreat. It is important to note that a miracled Entreat for even 1 or 2 is a nice clock that dodges all the Illness in the Rank / Staticaster Mage type hate that is usually played.
a single angel doesn't dodge every single mainboarded one for one removal spell though, and you will most of the time entreat on your turn.
Going for Miracle seems silly to me right now, the meta is already completely upside down, I'd rather start with a solid normal list before jumping through hoops for a turn 5 Terminus
Couple of questions regarding some basics of the deck, I run the draw go version of the deck for referrance.
I see some list running 3 Snapcaster Mage's and wanted to know why not the full 4.
With JTMS can we drop a Cryptic Command, I currently run 4 but am thinking three may be best, I also run 4 snaps.
yeah i think going full on into miracles isn't the best direction to go. i was just suggesting Entreat as a possible alternative to Secure the Wastes, given jace and opt allowing to draw at instant speed.
@ThommasHawk23 - personally ive always thought it a mistake to play anything less than 4 snaps. it is the single most powerful card in the deck, by a fair margin (imo).
i figured people were cutting 1-snap to accomadate for the Torrential Gearhulk, which has a similar effect with much bigger body. it also had additional upside in decks running a nahiri.
if you are playing 2-3 jaces i think its just incorrect to play the full 4 cryptics. so cutting 1 or 2 seems completely reasonable to me.
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Wear // Tear is the first of the two to go in the SB. It and Celestial Purge are the only 2 hard answers to Blood Moon etc.
Abrade is worth a spot vs. Humans, Merfolk, Affinity and Lantern, so if these 4 decks make up a large chunk of your meta then by all means run a copy. But 3 of those decks are already good MU's, so the meta share of these decks would have to go through the roof for me to run Abrade over wear // tear.
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Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
Alright so hopefully someone will respond to this. I plan on playing in the Starcity event in Worcester MA coming up in the beginning of March. Is it safe to assume that there will be a large amount of Jeskai/UW control matchups?
If so.. how do we feel about cutting down on logic knot and running more negate/spell snare/remand counters instead? I think that will make the deck better for the meantime until everyone calms down in the format with Jace will be cheaper counters and hard graveyard hate (ie: running RiP in the sideboard now - hence why I think logic knot should be cut back to a 1 of at most)
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UU"Brute force can sometimes kick down a locked door, but knowledge is a skeleton key"UU
Alright so hopefully someone will respond to this. I plan on playing in the Starcity event in Worcester MA coming up in the beginning of March. Is it safe to assume that there will be a large amount of Jeskai/UW control matchups?
If so.. how do we feel about cutting down on logic knot and running more negate/spell snare/remand counters instead? I think that will make the deck better for the meantime until everyone calms down in the format with Jace will be cheaper counters and hard graveyard hate (ie: running RiP in the sideboard now - hence why I think logic knot should be cut back to a 1 of at most)
Well with RiP in the Board, 1 or max 2 logic knots makes sense. I don't understand the argument for remand as a straight swap. Snare hits both GBx and UWx/UBx control, which we all expect an uptick in, so multiple Spell Snares in the main would be powerful. I don't see more than 1 negate ever being permanently viable in the MD, there are too many creature aggro decks that it bricks against.
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What about main decking Disdainful Stroke for the uptick in Jaces we'll most likely see? Or is it just better to add in Spell Snare or Dispel to deal with their own spells? We could always side board Disdainful if it seems better. What do you guys think?
What about main decking Disdainful Stroke for the uptick in Jaces we'll most likely see? Or is it just better to add in Spell Snare or Dispel to deal with their own spells? We could always side board Disdainful if it seems better. What do you guys think?
I feel that Disdainful Stroke is even worse than a 2nd Negate main. Yes, better to run more spell snares. As long as you don't skimp on logic knot / mana leak / cryptic in the main, the snares will help you win the counter wars over Jace and be better against the field. Maybe if 25% of the meta is JTMS and another 25% Tron... In that horror reality maybe Disdainful becomes main-worthy.
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Spirits
also im not sure im on board with the number of 4 drops im seeing in these lists. 3-4 cryptics + 2-3 jace AND 2 verdicts? get ready to have your teeth kicked in by run of the mill aggro decks.
then again maybe the meta slows down and it works out.
as for big mana matchups - jace doesnt really change anything. racing and tempo plays while hoping your draw is better than theirs. v-clique and geist are typically good threats
also i expect jeskai with jace will be the weakest of the blue based variants when considering the mirrors. for instance UBx decks with jace should be an unfavorable matchup
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I feel you on the Ruin's being greedy. Its the biggest issue I have (as noted) messing with what I am comfortable as a mana base.
Spirits
Thanks for the input. The argument for Opt over Serum Visions makes alot of sense and i am ecouraged to test it. Will try to get in some games and report my results for Science.
Hrmmm. Cryptic Command and Supreme Verdict are pretty good against run of the mill aggro decks. Seems fine to me.
going forward i could see going down to 2 cryptics being the right decision. loading up on them seemed more like a necessary evil to me since they gave the deck a value engine to pull ahead in the mid to late game. however jace pretty much does that on his own
if people are trying out the 4 opt + jace plan i could see a singleton Entreat the Angels being a viable finisher.
also i think its a little early to dismiss more creature based shells. heavy geist shells have never appealed to me, but it wouldn't surprise me to see some jeskai flash variant crop up. walls, snaps, quellers/clique, and resto angels...that sorta thing
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Especially with Jace gaining card advantage like no other, playing multiple cheap spells in a turn is often more powerful than playing one big mana spell. Personally I'm cut down to 2 Cryptics and 1 Verdict, although I am currently on 3 mainboard Jace mostly for testing purposes.
most of these decisions are contextually based on what you expect to face. however if anyone is looking to cut something for more early game action, i believe cryptic is the place to look
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I could see going down to 2 Cryptics, but I'd need to be confident in the rest of my deck to do so; Cryptic is just so versatile!
I'm playing 1 Secure the Wastes and have begun tracking how often I draw it and wish it were Entreat. It is important to note that a miracled Entreat for even 1 or 2 is a nice clock that dodges all the Illness in the Rank / Staticaster Mage type hate that is usually played.
Going for Miracle seems silly to me right now, the meta is already completely upside down, I'd rather start with a solid normal list before jumping through hoops for a turn 5 Terminus
Couple of questions regarding some basics of the deck, I run the draw go version of the deck for referrance.
I see some list running 3 Snapcaster Mage's and wanted to know why not the full 4.
With JTMS can we drop a Cryptic Command, I currently run 4 but am thinking three may be best, I also run 4 snaps.
Cheers.
@ThommasHawk23 - personally ive always thought it a mistake to play anything less than 4 snaps. it is the single most powerful card in the deck, by a fair margin (imo).
i figured people were cutting 1-snap to accomadate for the Torrential Gearhulk, which has a similar effect with much bigger body. it also had additional upside in decks running a nahiri.
if you are playing 2-3 jaces i think its just incorrect to play the full 4 cryptics. so cutting 1 or 2 seems completely reasonable to me.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
UWR Control
BR Hollow One
Wear // Tear is the first of the two to go in the SB. It and Celestial Purge are the only 2 hard answers to Blood Moon etc.
Abrade is worth a spot vs. Humans, Merfolk, Affinity and Lantern, so if these 4 decks make up a large chunk of your meta then by all means run a copy. But 3 of those decks are already good MU's, so the meta share of these decks would have to go through the roof for me to run Abrade over wear // tear.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
If so.. how do we feel about cutting down on logic knot and running more negate/spell snare/remand counters instead? I think that will make the deck better for the meantime until everyone calms down in the format with Jace will be cheaper counters and hard graveyard hate (ie: running RiP in the sideboard now - hence why I think logic knot should be cut back to a 1 of at most)
Well with RiP in the Board, 1 or max 2 logic knots makes sense. I don't understand the argument for remand as a straight swap. Snare hits both GBx and UWx/UBx control, which we all expect an uptick in, so multiple Spell Snares in the main would be powerful. I don't see more than 1 negate ever being permanently viable in the MD, there are too many creature aggro decks that it bricks against.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
Spirits
I feel that Disdainful Stroke is even worse than a 2nd Negate main. Yes, better to run more spell snares. As long as you don't skimp on logic knot / mana leak / cryptic in the main, the snares will help you win the counter wars over Jace and be better against the field. Maybe if 25% of the meta is JTMS and another 25% Tron... In that horror reality maybe Disdainful becomes main-worthy.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza