Mono white D&T is specifically good against greedy mana bases. There isn't much to do but bring in all the cheap removal you can muster and hold on as best you can. I actually keep discard spells in based on the sideboard I have at the time. Some creatures they generally like to deploy as a surprise.
Aren't they supposed to cut Vial in the GBx matchup? Its a real bad topdeck. Humans does it, Merfolk does it, WB Eldrazi and Taxes does it, so I am guessing this version should so too. Therefore I am not high on bringin in Grudge. I think KCommand is good enough.
Yes, most people do. However, what people "should" do and what I've seen don't always line up. With mono-white D&T in particular, most of the pilots I come across are loathe to give it up. Maybe they have their reasons. I really don't know the match from their side of it.
I still think the matchup is not favourable for us, but your plan makes sense to me. Will definitely try it out when I come across that deck again, thanks for sharing that, good stuff
I'll take all three of your advices and try them out.
So, I'm thinking something like
On the play:
-1 LOTV,
-2 IOK
+1 LTLH
+1 Grim
+1 Sweeper
On the draw:
-4 LOTV
-1 IOK
+1 LTLH
+1 Grim
+1 Sweeper
+1 CB
+1 CB
And then I'll give hellkites suggestion and try something like
-1 Scooze
-1 Pulse (I've heard some people say it's right to cut this)
-1 Decay (doesn't this seem wrong though?)
-1 LOTV
+1 Grim
+1 Sweeper
+2 Grindy cards?
I'll try both plans out.
I used to beat this deck all the time, now I'm struggling. I feel as though they just have so many 2 for 1s, thraben, 2 to 4 Canopy, 4x angels to blank removal, splicers, flicker, etc.
If I notice vial being kept in I'll probably side 1 grudge in, at worst it can kill a golem.
This is better feedback than I thought, thanks guys. I thought people were going to say, "pish posh, just prepare for E&T".
I actually think Tax decks are well positioned right now for large tournaments. E&T definitely feels easier to handle.
Yeah report back when you compared them, am curious since I generally thought this matchup is not favourable. I have a bad record vs. them but I also approach the matchup differently.
To weigh in on the vial discussion, I've never played against a DnT player that's cut vial, and I usually bring in a single Ancient Grudge because they generally have a lot of targets for it. If you can take out the vial, LotV becomes a lot better because so much of their deck is 2+ mana, so they can't quickly deploy their threats. More than most decks, they really struggle to deal with both Liliana's being on the field because of a high density of x/1's in the deck.
My approach is usually to trim an ooze and a couple discard spells while bringing in removal and an Ancient Grudge. I think that your actual in-game sequencing matters more than how you sideboard in this matchup though, assuming that your sideboarding isn't completely wrong (which I don't think any of the approaches discussed are). I usually aggressively use fetchlands until I hit 3 mana, then try to sandbag them to recover from whatever mana disruption my opponent plays out. Red mana tends to be the most important one because we don't run red basics, so I also usually fetch more red mana than I need with the expectation that they'll remove some of it. It's really bad for them to go after black and green mana (generally) because Path to Exile and Ghost Quarter can help us find those colors again. This is also a matchup where they're not winning quickly, so taking your time to fetch lands tapped and develop your mana without dropping too low isn't terrible.
It could be the players I'm facing, but I always assumed this matchup was favorable until I started hearing from people that it wasn't. Once I got the hang of the play patterns in-game I've generally found it to be very manageable.
Yeah lets hope so. Is it just me or does this article basically say nothing though? BBE is annyoing to play against, and what else? I know the detailed data is coming next week, but why this article then?
Yeah lets hope so. Is it just me or does this article basically say nothing though? BBE is annyoing to play against, and what else? I know the detailed data is coming next week, but why this article then?
The quality of articles on Modern Nexus has been circling down a toilet for a while now. It's not just you. That specific article just seemed like a fluff piece just so he can turn something in for his assignment, or maybe he's laying some foundation for something. I have no idea. It just seemed like a waste of time to read. Nothing in the article was "news" or interesting. Just a layout of how they arrived at the test deck (which could've been one paragraph) and what line-up they're testing it against with some personal opinion on the side.
Yeah lets hope so. Is it just me or does this article basically say nothing though? BBE is annyoing to play against, and what else? I know the detailed data is coming next week, but why this article then?
So he doesn't have to put the deck-lists and the results in one article?
Was just on Todd Stevens twitch, and he actually answered a question of mine
I wrote,
"Dear Todd Stevens, I saw your take on Jund. Doesn't it seem wrong to cut LOTV in that matchup?"
He responded that they'll gladly trade their dead cards/lands for yours and easily win the CA advantage game. He feels LOTV being good against them is one of the hugest misconceptions. The -2 of her ability doesn't work on much of their deck, either. He says obviously he did something right since he won with them all night. He claims to just side in more threats against them.
Like, I must be going ******* crazy here, right?
Obviously, I don't feel the way he does, but was surprised to hear such an...against the grain opinion. Was glad he answered that though and appreciate it, even if I don't agree.
Was just on Todd Stevens twitch, and he actually answered a question of mine
I wrote,
"Dear Todd Stevens, I saw your take on Jund. Doesn't it seem wrong to cut LOTV in that matchup?"
He responded that they'll gladly trade their dead cards/lands for yours and easily win the CA advantage game. He feels LOTV being good against them is one of the hugest misconceptions. The -2 of her ability doesn't work on much of their deck, either. He says obviously he did something right since he won with them all night. He claims to just side in more threats against them.
Like, I must be going ******* crazy here, right?
Obviously, I don't feel the way he does, but was surprised to hear such an...against the grain opinion. Was glad he answered that though and appreciate it, even if I don't agree.
I said the same, exact thing to myself while I was watching it happen. I thought he lost his mind, but he's not exactly wrong. I still have a hard to time believing he is right though. My question is this: What else you would cut to bring in the Fulminator Mages? I had a difficult time trying to figure it out myself.
Benjamin Nikolich, the winner of the last SCG modern open playing Jeskai control posted an article about his Jeskai control list. In the comments, someone asked him about LoTV as well. It's an SCG premium article but you don't need premium to read the comments. He basically said the same thing as Todd Stevens where in terms of trading resources you as the LoTV player are trading 3 mana for their worst card in their hand. It actually doesn't provide much advantage
I just watched Todd Stevens play Jund on his stream from a few days ago
He played really, really well. I don't think I saw one mistake by him across 5 matches. He had some lines of play I didn't really see, and some of his were better than mine.
Maybe he's right, maybe LOTV is what we cut against UW Control, Jeskai Control (not geist), and Esper, etc. He played Wafu, one of the best control players of all time, and beat him back to back...
Oh, wow, having Benjamin say this does have some credibility to it.
I usually try to get rid of all my junk in my hands.
Now I am confused hearing this from him
I can understand why Nikolich maintains his PoV. He is on an actual control list that can reload his hand or find ways to clean the board. The midrange/tempo style decks either don't have that or are really weak in that department. Traditionally, Jund has suffered in the past at the hands of blue mages that used to pack Sphinx's Revelation or Ancestral Vision.
I just have a hard time understanding how it worked against such a control deck. I did think it was weird that Wafo-Tapa kept in Bolts and Helices.
Benjamin basically says that if we spend 3 mana and a card to let them discard their weakest card against us for free mana we are getting behind in the resource game.
Well it might be that Control decks are having more cards in hand and if a Lili sticks it will likely end up in a situation where we don't have cards in hand but our opponent does (if a Revelation or Vision resolved). However, I feel like, we are a topdeck deck anyway, and if anything, we just can continue to plus her, until the opponent runs out of cards as well. After that, every threat we topdeck will likely stick and attack.
Specifically I tend to bring in Collective Brutality (as a weak removal spell) , Ancient Grudge (I think blowing up Vial is necessary), Liliana, the Last Hope and Grim Lavamancer. I usually cut 2 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Goblin Rabblemaster, 1 Hazoret the Fervent and 1 Inquisition of Kozilek. Generally, I'm just shaving from the top of my curve. I do find Liliana of the Veil to be useful on the play. On the draw, I cut all four though. If you can keep Thalia off the field and survive to turn 4, you generally have a chance. Otherwise, you're done.
Cheap interaction is best, I agree.
So, I'm thinking something like
On the play:
-1 LOTV,
-2 IOK
+1 LTLH
+1 Grim
+1 Sweeper
On the draw:
-4 LOTV
-1 IOK
+1 LTLH
+1 Grim
+1 Sweeper
+1 CB
+1 CB
And then I'll give hellkites suggestion and try something like
-1 Scooze
-1 Pulse (I've heard some people say it's right to cut this)
-1 Decay (doesn't this seem wrong though?)
-1 LOTV
+1 Grim
+1 Sweeper
+2 Grindy cards?
I'll try both plans out.
I used to beat this deck all the time, now I'm struggling. I feel as though they just have so many 2 for 1s, thraben, 2 to 4 Canopy, 4x angels to blank removal, splicers, flicker, etc.
If I notice vial being kept in I'll probably side 1 grudge in, at worst it can kill a golem.
This is better feedback than I thought, thanks guys. I thought people were going to say, "pish posh, just prepare for E&T".
I actually think Tax decks are well positioned right now for large tournaments. E&T definitely feels easier to handle.
My approach is usually to trim an ooze and a couple discard spells while bringing in removal and an Ancient Grudge. I think that your actual in-game sequencing matters more than how you sideboard in this matchup though, assuming that your sideboarding isn't completely wrong (which I don't think any of the approaches discussed are). I usually aggressively use fetchlands until I hit 3 mana, then try to sandbag them to recover from whatever mana disruption my opponent plays out. Red mana tends to be the most important one because we don't run red basics, so I also usually fetch more red mana than I need with the expectation that they'll remove some of it. It's really bad for them to go after black and green mana (generally) because Path to Exile and Ghost Quarter can help us find those colors again. This is also a matchup where they're not winning quickly, so taking your time to fetch lands tapped and develop your mana without dropping too low isn't terrible.
It could be the players I'm facing, but I always assumed this matchup was favorable until I started hearing from people that it wasn't. Once I got the hang of the play patterns in-game I've generally found it to be very manageable.
Hopefully we can live the dream
The quality of articles on Modern Nexus has been circling down a toilet for a while now. It's not just you. That specific article just seemed like a fluff piece just so he can turn something in for his assignment, or maybe he's laying some foundation for something. I have no idea. It just seemed like a waste of time to read. Nothing in the article was "news" or interesting. Just a layout of how they arrived at the test deck (which could've been one paragraph) and what line-up they're testing it against with some personal opinion on the side.
So he doesn't have to put the deck-lists and the results in one article?
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Was just on Todd Stevens twitch, and he actually answered a question of mine
I wrote,
"Dear Todd Stevens, I saw your take on Jund. Doesn't it seem wrong to cut LOTV in that matchup?"
He responded that they'll gladly trade their dead cards/lands for yours and easily win the CA advantage game. He feels LOTV being good against them is one of the hugest misconceptions. The -2 of her ability doesn't work on much of their deck, either. He says obviously he did something right since he won with them all night. He claims to just side in more threats against them.
Like, I must be going ******* crazy here, right?
Obviously, I don't feel the way he does, but was surprised to hear such an...against the grain opinion. Was glad he answered that though and appreciate it, even if I don't agree.
I said the same, exact thing to myself while I was watching it happen. I thought he lost his mind, but he's not exactly wrong. I still have a hard to time believing he is right though. My question is this: What else you would cut to bring in the Fulminator Mages? I had a difficult time trying to figure it out myself.
I usually try to get rid of all my junk in my hands.
Now I am confused hearing this from him
He played really, really well. I don't think I saw one mistake by him across 5 matches. He had some lines of play I didn't really see, and some of his were better than mine.
Maybe he's right, maybe LOTV is what we cut against UW Control, Jeskai Control (not geist), and Esper, etc. He played Wafu, one of the best control players of all time, and beat him back to back...
I can understand why Nikolich maintains his PoV. He is on an actual control list that can reload his hand or find ways to clean the board. The midrange/tempo style decks either don't have that or are really weak in that department. Traditionally, Jund has suffered in the past at the hands of blue mages that used to pack Sphinx's Revelation or Ancestral Vision.
I just have a hard time understanding how it worked against such a control deck. I did think it was weird that Wafo-Tapa kept in Bolts and Helices.
Reid Duke certainly is in favor of Lili against Control, doesnt that matter much more?
Well it might be that Control decks are having more cards in hand and if a Lili sticks it will likely end up in a situation where we don't have cards in hand but our opponent does (if a Revelation or Vision resolved). However, I feel like, we are a topdeck deck anyway, and if anything, we just can continue to plus her, until the opponent runs out of cards as well. After that, every threat we topdeck will likely stick and attack.