Mengucci does think U/B Control has potential and goes over his includes and cuts. I do like his reasoning on cards like Harsh Scrutiny, Revolutionary Rebuff, and Fortune's Favor. I also like that we use Liliana as both removal and a way to decrease Power to prevent Crewing. And then there's Torrential Gearhulk to close out the game.
Looks very promising, might as well take it for a spin tom. Though I'm not entirely onboard with fortune's favor
Mengucci does think U/B Control has potential and goes over his includes and cuts. I do like his reasoning on cards like Harsh Scrutiny, Revolutionary Rebuff, and Fortune's Favor. I also like that we use Liliana as both removal and a way to decrease Power to prevent Crewing. And then there's Torrential Gearhulk to close out the game.
Looks very promising, might as well take it for a spin tom. Though I'm not entirely onboard with fortune's favor
Willing to give Fortune's Favor a chance, you never know. My one issue is that Horribly Awry can't hit copter, though it can hit things that want to crew it where as Negate can hit Copter and stays relevant into the late game. I also enjoyed how Mengucci brought up Harsh Scrutiny and agree that people should be considering it more. It's a very solid card for one mana that can greatly hinder a lot of creature based decks early. I've made some changes to my list from the previous page, after having read his article, and this list is the list I'm going to try tomorrow:
I'm not entirely happy with the sideboard, but it looks like it will get the job done. The most noticable change from my previous list is the removal of the W for Dovin Baan. Dovin is a very powerful walker, yet I don't think trying to splash for him is needed. We will see.
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Yeah, I'm intrigued by Fortune's Favor as well. On first glance, it seems the same as GoG, but Mengucci makes a good point - it puts spells in the graveyard to be flashed back with the Hulk rather than bury them under the library. This makes the choice of the opponent even harder, knowing that whatever you don't pick may come back again...
One card that has popped up in the generic control thread was Ugin's Insight. At worst it's a draw 3, but with a Hulk out is scry 6 draw 3, or scry 4 with Kalitas. And Dusk, I'm interested in the mainboard Kalitas. Make sure you let us know how it goes!
Some more stuff from Soorani - he featured in the SCG mailer, listing his top 10 cards for control in Kaladesh. I'll skip over the non-Esper ones, and summarise his comments here for those that aren't on the mailing list.
"There's a stunning amount of two toughness creatures that can populate the battlefield, and Demon of Dark Schemes is a powerful threat at the end of the curve for black control decks."
"A key component of all black-based control sideboards. The Lightning Helix effect is a great way to answer a Smuggler's Copter, or any other three toughness threat while returning precious life points. Control decks that want to be successful are going to have to use cards like Essence Extraction to buy time moving forward."
"Gaining life is always a powerful step in a successful control plan, but Fumigate is easy to sniff out from a mile away. With the new vehicles, aggressive players have the option to play fewer threats that demand an answer. Because of this new reality, we will be forced to use spot removal earlier and more frequently to survive. Fumigate is a necessary evil, but I believe the next spell on the list will play a bigger role."
"The difference between five and six mana is negligible. [It] is a lights out spell against Grixis Emerge, or any deck using the Prized Amalgam/Haunted Dead engine. When gearing a control deck for an aggressive metagame, a control mage must play more copies of the most impactful spell of its type."
"Often enough to hold down the fort before the big sorceries make their appearance. ... This planeswalker is a must play in the current metagame if black is your primary color."
"Control still needs a way to win and the creature route is typically the more difficult one. Aggressive decks will play Declaration in Stone, but often don't have the tools to handle Planeswalkers on semi-clean battlefields. Dovin Baan falls into the same category as Chandra, Torch of Defiance, with better control colors, but weaker overall."
"If this aggressive wave continues, Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet punishes those who attempt to slay us in the early turns if unanswered. Play this creature on turn four (or turn five with a Galvanic Bombardment) and watch your aggro opponent squirm in their seat as they see their battlefield shrinks, yours grows, and your life total move out of reach."
If you're interested, Radiant Flames was number 1.
Mengucci does think U/B Control has potential and goes over his includes and cuts. I do like his reasoning on cards like Harsh Scrutiny, Revolutionary Rebuff, and Fortune's Favor. I also like that we use Liliana as both removal and a way to decrease Power to prevent Crewing. And then there's Torrential Gearhulk to close out the game.
he says that it only has potential in a non-aggro metagame, so this type of deck may not be well positioned right now. Note his last paragraph: "The metagame is unfortunately extremely aggressive right now, but if it shifts to a more midrange one with Verdurous Gearhulk, then U/B Control will be a powerhouse."
There are so many good options here - I am not sure which to choose and am trying to get organized and build a stable list. What I have done is perused all the decks in this thread, and sleeved 4 of every common/uncommon mentioned aside.
How good has Liliana really been in the pure UB lists in testing?
Was able to ulti her twice in 2 rounds today. She kills all the lil vehicle drivers while instant speed removal kills the vehicles.
I took the list posted in cfb to today's fnm and finished 3-0-1 with the draw to a B/W control deck. Beating r/w vehicles, g/w midrange, and another b/w control (walkers)
As for individual performances, torrential gearhulk really was the workhorse in terms of damage and utility, flashing in to counter or draw was huge in some match ups.
Liliana, the last hope also did good in keeping lil dudes at bay. She kills the driver, then when the vehicle becomes a creature grasp of darkness and essence extraction are there to blow em up.
Murder is a must if you know the opponent has that 5/3 airship in the deck.
One thing I did differently from the cfb list was that I included a singpe noxious gearhulk in place of a 4th torrential gearhulk and man I was so happy to kill a brisela with it.
Finally I included 1 metallurgic summoning and when it came out during a game it was just value all the way from all the instant spells.
Got to say, U/B I think i'm gonna stick with this for a long while as it felt really good just waiting out your opponent and playing the draw-go game.
I'm using a Sultai/Clue-based version of the deck. It can draw, scry, and tutor through the deck looking for answers or win conditions much more quickly, letting you run fewer copies of each kind of counter in the deck and a more diverse set of wincons. I originally had syndicate traffickers in the deck as more clue payoff, but that was a nonbo with Flaying Tendrils and seemed to split purposes. I'm still figuring out the sideboard and mana base, using the Mengucci sideboard as a starting point.
As promised, Shaheen Soorani posted an article today on SCG looking at his choices for the UB and Esper list in the first post. He also made a few changes to the lists, as well as including sideboard choices. Interestingly, he thinks that Wrath of Cod is a necessary card in Esper to counter act graveyard recursion, and is worth playing in a split with Fumigate. His thoughts on Scatter to the Winds vs Void Shatter are worth considering too.
Anyway, I've updated the original post with the new lists, and also put them here as well.
Anyone have thoughts on alternate finishers/control pieces for the Sultai control deck I showed? The gearhulks are nice, but don't synergize as well with the rest of the deck, particularly since I'm just using small instants and sorceries instead of things like Glimmer of Genius. I have the SOI Jace, but he just does more of what the deck already does. Maybe the the new Nissa is a good fit, both for protection using land creatures, and recurring win cons that end up in the graveyard?
Played R/W for the first time last night. Drew bad, but still didn't like the feel. Made the following changes for tonight (off memory), in an attempt to lessen color/mana screw and lower the curve a little.
Can't remember the SB, but 3 Flaying Tendrils are now there. I took them out to try Dead Weight, and it lived up to it's name smh... The Fumigate that came out went there also.
I played a half-assed grixis brew tonight. I went 2-0-1 and finished first. Where I go its always only 3 rounds. The 2 wins were against RW Aggro. One was RW Vehicle missing 1 rolfcopter (everything else was there) and the other one was RW Humans aggro with bonesaw and the dudes that boost everything with equipment in play and I saw some vehicules too in it ... not sure if it was filler or whatnot. The draw was against GW Tokens. I have to admit Im not the fastest player and the other guy isn't either. If you want I can post the list and mention what my real build was supposed to be if I wasn't missing the cards from shipping before tonight. Not sure if this thread is for all control decks or not.
Congrats on the first place Humstuck! This thread is for the Esper or straight UB lists, so if you want to share your list, then it's probably going to get more feedback in the general "Control in Kaladesh" thread. However, it's good to know that control seems to be holding its own in many forms against the RW wave...
I actually removed the 4 copies of harsh scrutiny from the main, replaced it with 2 copies of collective brutality to make way for 1 copy each of insidious will and metallurgic summonings. This is because I often found myself in testing that I lack the damage push if the gearhulk gets killed off and I think it happened twice that I had my opponent at 6 life only to have torrential get hit with grasp leaving the opponent at two life. Plus with 2 copies of collective brutality and 2 copies of essence extraction its a possible gain 10 life which is kinda a big deal.
But with all the eldrazi being cheated into play due to aetherworks marvel, I'm thinking if it would be better to include summary dismissal instead of insidious will. We can still respond to aetherworks marvel that way right? Or am I mistaken bout it?
Put the deck list from last night's FNM in spoiler tag as it is the same as the list in my previous post. I ended up 2-2-1 on the night, with my losses coming from mana issues. Going to be completely honest and say that I don't remember how the matches went but I beat UR Visions/Thero-Alchemist and mono-white fliers, tied 1-1 Grixis Emerge, lost to BR Control 1-2 with my one win coming on the back of Torrential Gearhulk getting me multiple draws with Fortune's Favor, and losses were due to mana issues, and lost to RG Energy Aggro where I flooded out and couldn't get to my answers
Overall, Torrential Gearhulk is an amazing card, the value it can generate is amazing. Fortune's Favor impressed me a lot, not only by occasionally tossing an instant into the yard but often being what I needed, even by taking the face down pile. If you aren't running a deck that needs energy, definitely consider it over Glimmer of Genius. Harsh Scrutiny was always a great card, allowing me to get good information to set up a Lost Legacy out of the board. The deck was really fun to play and I look forward to refining it down the road.
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I actually removed the 4 copies of harsh scrutiny from the main, replaced it with 2 copies of collective brutality to make way for 1 copy each of insidious will and metallurgic summonings. This is because I often found myself in testing that I lack the damage push if the gearhulk gets killed off and I think it happened twice that I had my opponent at 6 life only to have torrential get hit with grasp leaving the opponent at two life. Plus with 2 copies of collective brutality and 2 copies of essence extraction its a possible gain 10 life which is kinda a big deal.
But with all the eldrazi being cheated into play due to aetherworks marvel, I'm thinking if it would be better to include summary dismissal instead of insidious will. We can still respond to aetherworks marvel that way right? Or am I mistaken bout it?
Yes we can. I've been maindecking 1 Summary Dismissal for a while now (+2 more in the board, for actual eldrazi matchups) precisely because its reasonably flexible. Anything that uses the stack can be "countered" by SD. I had a damage race recently vs a UR alchemist deck where saving the two damage from the fevered visions won me the game. There are lots of very "corner case" scenarios, but when you put them all together, there is a relevant chunk of scenarios where the card is reasonable (not "good", and probably the first to come out vs non-eldrazi opponents, but still main deck worthy).
THat seems like a nice deck. What tournament did it get 2nd in?
ON a different note: how do pple feel about authority of the consuls vs vehicles decks? I initially was skeptical, but i tried it and it worked pretty well; i did not test it much, so it could be a low sample size thing.
I just got an inkling on what cards we can use if we have any excess energy lying around and since most decks I've seen uses 1-2 copiess of aether hub + 2-3 copies of glimmer of genius, so its safe to assume that at any given time between mid to late game you have anywhere from 2-5 energy not being used, which is kind of a waste.
Deadlock trap in itself comes with 2 energy and stops Walker upticks or that fairly aggressive rolfcopter.
As for fortune's favor vs Glimmer of genius, I'm more in favor of GoG since it has the capacity to net you an answer that you can use immediately rather than having to wait for a gearhulk before you can reuse it. In my opinion, its a little more efficient than the former.
As for fortune's favor vs Glimmer of genius, I'm more in favor of GoG since it has the capacity to net you an answer that you can use immediately rather than having to wait for a gearhulk before you can reuse it. In my opinion, its a little more efficient than the former.
So does Favor: if you do not see what you need in the face up pile (an answer) you take the face down pile, just like scrying 2 to the bottom and drawing two. I'm most situations the only time I feel I would run Glimmer over Favor right now is in a deck that needs energy, otherwise the potential is there with Favor to get three card into your hand, where Glimmer will only ever get you two. imo Favor has a greater chance of getting you cards that you need than Glimmer.
EDIT: Just have a few thoughts on some powerful control cards currently in Standard Torrential Gearhulk - I'll admit I was a skeptic when this card was revealed, thinking the instant only clause was too narrow, but boy was I wrong. getting repeat value off of your instant speed hand fuelers (Anticipate, Glimmer/Favor) is nice, as is flashing back grasp to deal with a late game Copter
Liliana, the Last Hope - currently one of the biggest thorns in the RW deck's side, as it kills most early threats and can make crewing difficult and value if you can get her to ult
Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet - great creature that generates tokens and can hose any deck with a recursion engine (like Grixis Emerge)
Lost Legacy - an amazing card out of the side if you learned enough about the deck you're facing in game one, allowing you to pull key pieces from the deck and make it that much harder for them to win
Flaying Tendrils - deals with most of the pesky creatures running around in vehicles, the small creatures from emerge decks, and tokens if they are still a thing.
Fumigate - for those in white this card is great, the first wrath effect I don't mind paying 5 for as life gain is always nice
Sorin, Grim Nemesis - another powerful card for those in white Sorin just does a lot that control decks like
Dovin Baan - this guy is another one to consider if your meta is swinging hard to the vehicle heavy decks as -3/-0 keeps several creatures from being able to crew while his ult is pretty much game over
Overall there are a lot of good cards in Standard for control based decks, the question becomes which fit with the deck you're trying to make and what is your meta
Regarding the Favor vs GoG discussion - what about Epiphany at the Drownyard instead? At X=3, it's the same cost as Favor, except you get to arrange the piles (and play games with the opponent - eg make a pile with 3 land and a pile with a Gearhulk, they assume you need a Gearhulk, dump it, when you actually were crying out for land). Anything higher than X=3, and you start looking at more cards than Favor.
Regarding the Favor vs GoG discussion - what about Epiphany at the Drownyard instead? At X=3, it's the same cost as Favor, except you get to arrange the piles (and play games with the opponent - eg make a pile with 3 land and a pile with a Gearhulk, they assume you need a Gearhulk, dump it, when you actually were crying out for land). Anything higher than X=3, and you start looking at more cards than Favor.
My issue with Epiphany is two fold. First, things get worse when the opponent chooses. I know it can be minor but they will always choose what benefits them the most. The second issue I have is that you can only cast it once, where both Glimmer and Favor both can be recast again with Torrential Gearhulk for increased value off the card
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Regarding the Favor vs GoG discussion - what about Epiphany at the Drownyard instead? At X=3, it's the same cost as Favor, except you get to arrange the piles (and play games with the opponent - eg make a pile with 3 land and a pile with a Gearhulk, they assume you need a Gearhulk, dump it, when you actually were crying out for land). Anything higher than X=3, and you start looking at more cards than Favor.
My issue with Epiphany is two fold. First, things get worse when the opponent chooses. I know it can be minor but they will always choose what benefits them the most. The second issue I have is that you can only cast it once, where both Glimmer and Favor both can be recast again with Torrential Gearhulk for increased value off the card
I tried to use Epiphany with metallurgic summonings. Strange story about MS: I did not think it was good when it was spoiled (the whole "5 mana does nothing when it ETBs" thing), but I got it in my mtgo pre-release draft. So I figured "ok, now that I actually own this thing, lets see if it is as bad as i thought". It has overperformed! True, you need to more or less stabilize by turn 5, but in an instant heavy deck it generates so many blockers and ambush situations that it's absurd. Every time I drop MS, if I untap with it and I'm not dead, I feel I cannot possibly lose. A typical sequence that comes up is somewhat as follows: T5: MS -> T6: Torrential Gearhulk, flashback a 3 or 4 mana spell (typically a glimmer of genius)-> now I have a 5/6, a 4/4 and 2 extra cards to completely obliterate your attacking force. MS has replaced fumigate as a board sweeper of sorts (vs decks that attack on the ground, of course.)
Why do I bring this up? Because MS creates a huge monster when you cast epiphany late game, and whatever your opponent puts in the yard can be (a) re-bought with a gearhulk or (b) re-bought with the summonings activated ability. Now, in all fairness, epiphany is a really late game card so it only works in grindy matchups and only as a 1-of. In a couple of control mirrors, post board, I cast ephiphany for X>8, and it is generally lights out, even when you get the worst pile. I'm not sure the meta is slow enough to warrant this sort of plan, but it is an interaction worth noting if the meta slows down after the PT.
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Looks very promising, might as well take it for a spin tom. Though I'm not entirely onboard with fortune's favor
Willing to give Fortune's Favor a chance, you never know. My one issue is that Horribly Awry can't hit copter, though it can hit things that want to crew it where as Negate can hit Copter and stays relevant into the late game. I also enjoyed how Mengucci brought up Harsh Scrutiny and agree that people should be considering it more. It's a very solid card for one mana that can greatly hinder a lot of creature based decks early. I've made some changes to my list from the previous page, after having read his article, and this list is the list I'm going to try tomorrow:
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Torrential Gearhulk
Instants (18)
4 Anticipate
4 Grasp of Darkness
2 Negate
2 Essence Extraction
3 Scatter to the Winds
3 Fortune's Favor
Sorceries (8)
4 Harsh Scrutiny
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Ruinous Path
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
Lands (26)
3 Blighted Fen
4 Choked Estuary
4 Island
4 Submerged Boneyard
4 Sunken Hollow
7 Swamp
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Essence Extraction
3 Flaying Tendrils
3 Lost Legacy
3 Summary Dismissal
2 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
I'm not entirely happy with the sideboard, but it looks like it will get the job done. The most noticable change from my previous list is the removal of the W for Dovin Baan. Dovin is a very powerful walker, yet I don't think trying to splash for him is needed. We will see.
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
One card that has popped up in the generic control thread was Ugin's Insight. At worst it's a draw 3, but with a Hulk out is scry 6 draw 3, or scry 4 with Kalitas. And Dusk, I'm interested in the mainboard Kalitas. Make sure you let us know how it goes!
#10 Demon of Dark Schemes
"There's a stunning amount of two toughness creatures that can populate the battlefield, and Demon of Dark Schemes is a powerful threat at the end of the curve for black control decks."
#9 Essence Extraction
"A key component of all black-based control sideboards. The Lightning Helix effect is a great way to answer a Smuggler's Copter, or any other three toughness threat while returning precious life points. Control decks that want to be successful are going to have to use cards like Essence Extraction to buy time moving forward."
#8 Fumigate
"Gaining life is always a powerful step in a successful control plan, but Fumigate is easy to sniff out from a mile away. With the new vehicles, aggressive players have the option to play fewer threats that demand an answer. Because of this new reality, we will be forced to use spot removal earlier and more frequently to survive. Fumigate is a necessary evil, but I believe the next spell on the list will play a bigger role."
#7 Descend Upon the Sinful
"The difference between five and six mana is negligible. [It] is a lights out spell against Grixis Emerge, or any deck using the Prized Amalgam/Haunted Dead engine. When gearing a control deck for an aggressive metagame, a control mage must play more copies of the most impactful spell of its type."
#6 Liliana, the Last Hope
"Often enough to hold down the fort before the big sorceries make their appearance. ... This planeswalker is a must play in the current metagame if black is your primary color."
#5 Grasp of Darkness
"The best removal spell in Standard."
#4 Dovin Baan (tied with new Chandra)
"Control still needs a way to win and the creature route is typically the more difficult one. Aggressive decks will play Declaration in Stone, but often don't have the tools to handle Planeswalkers on semi-clean battlefields. Dovin Baan falls into the same category as Chandra, Torch of Defiance, with better control colors, but weaker overall."
#2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
"If this aggressive wave continues, Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet punishes those who attempt to slay us in the early turns if unanswered. Play this creature on turn four (or turn five with a Galvanic Bombardment) and watch your aggro opponent squirm in their seat as they see their battlefield shrinks, yours grows, and your life total move out of reach."
If you're interested, Radiant Flames was number 1.
he says that it only has potential in a non-aggro metagame, so this type of deck may not be well positioned right now. Note his last paragraph: "The metagame is unfortunately extremely aggressive right now, but if it shifts to a more midrange one with Verdurous Gearhulk, then U/B Control will be a powerhouse."
4 Harsh Scrutiny
4 Revolutionary Rebuff
4 Grasp of Darkness
4 Transgress the Mind
4 Negate
4 Immolating Glare
4 Blessed Alliance
4 Anticipate
4 Anguished Unmaking
4 Murder
4 Glimmer of Genius
Rarewise, I have sleeved the following rares that I own.
2 Torrential Gearhulk
2 Dovin Baan
2 Sorin, Grim Nemsis
2 Cataclysmic Gearhulk
2 Noxious Gearhulk
2 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
2 Liliana, the Last Hope (removed from GB delirium)
2 Ruinous Path
Landwise:
3 Shambling Vent
3 Concealed Courtyard
3 Port Town
3 Prairie Stream
4 Sunken Hollow
3 Choked Estuary
Now, from what I own above, what would be the best concoction to run here? (I need many helps, I can't think for myself lol)
Was able to ulti her twice in 2 rounds today. She kills all the lil vehicle drivers while instant speed removal kills the vehicles.
I took the list posted in cfb to today's fnm and finished 3-0-1 with the draw to a B/W control deck. Beating r/w vehicles, g/w midrange, and another b/w control (walkers)
As for individual performances, torrential gearhulk really was the workhorse in terms of damage and utility, flashing in to counter or draw was huge in some match ups.
Liliana, the last hope also did good in keeping lil dudes at bay. She kills the driver, then when the vehicle becomes a creature grasp of darkness and essence extraction are there to blow em up.
Murder is a must if you know the opponent has that 5/3 airship in the deck.
One thing I did differently from the cfb list was that I included a singpe noxious gearhulk in place of a 4th torrential gearhulk and man I was so happy to kill a brisela with it.
Finally I included 1 metallurgic summoning and when it came out during a game it was just value all the way from all the instant spells.
Got to say, U/B I think i'm gonna stick with this for a long while as it felt really good just waiting out your opponent and playing the draw-go game.
Here's where I currently am:
4 Aether Hub
3 Attune with Aether
3 Blooming Marsh
2 Botanical Sanctum
2 Choked Estuary
2 Forest
3 Island
4 Sunken Hollow
3 Swamp
Win Conditions
2 Marionette Master
1 Torrential Gearhulk
1 Verdurous Gearhulk
4 Contraband Kingpin
4 Tireless Tracker
3 Tamiyo's Journal
3 Trail of Evidence
Counter/Removal Spells
2 Flaying Tendrils
3 Grasp of Darkness
3 Harsh Scrutiny
2 Murder
2 Negate
2 Ruinous Path
2 Void Shatter
2 Appetite for the Unnatural
2 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Clip Wings
1 Flaying Tendrils
2 Horribly Awry
3 Lost Legacy
1 Ruinous Path
1 Summary Dismissal
2 Transgress the Mind
Anyway, I've updated the original post with the new lists, and also put them here as well.
3 Island
8 Swamp
1 Aether Hub
2 Blighted Fen
4 Choked Estuary
4 Submerged Boneyard
4 Sunken Hollow
Creatures (4)
4 Torrential Gearhulk
Planeswalkers (5)
1 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
3 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
4 Anticipate
3 Glimmer of Genius
4 Grasp of Darkness
3 Murder
4 Scatter to the Winds
1 Summary Dismissal
3 Ruinous Path
3 Transgress the Mind
1 Confirm Suspicions
3 Essence Extraction
1 Negate
1 Summary Dismissal
3 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
3 Flaying Tendrils
1 Ruinous Path
1 Transgress the Mind
2 Island
1 Plains
5 Swamp
4 Choked Estuary
2 Evolving Wilds
4 Prairie Stream
4 Shambling Vent
4 Sunken Hollow
Creatures (1)
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
Planeswalkers (9)
3 Dovin Baan
1 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Anguished Unmaking
4 Grasp of Darkness
1 Murder
4 Oath of Jace
2 Descend upon the Sinful
2 Fumigate
2 Ruinous Path
4 Take Inventory
4 Transgress the Mind
2 Essence Extraction
2 Negate
2 Summary Dismissal
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
3 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Flaying Tendrils
1 Painful Truths
1 Ruinous Path
MD
-1 Glimmer Of Genius
-1 Harsh Scrutiny
-1 Fumigate
-1 Island
+2 Live Fast
+1 Blessed Alliance
+1 Aether Hub
Can't remember the SB, but 3 Flaying Tendrils are now there. I took them out to try Dead Weight, and it lived up to it's name smh... The Fumigate that came out went there also.
Standard: Whatever Control is Best
Modern: Nothing
Legacy; Miracles RIP
I actually removed the 4 copies of harsh scrutiny from the main, replaced it with 2 copies of collective brutality to make way for 1 copy each of insidious will and metallurgic summonings. This is because I often found myself in testing that I lack the damage push if the gearhulk gets killed off and I think it happened twice that I had my opponent at 6 life only to have torrential get hit with grasp leaving the opponent at two life. Plus with 2 copies of collective brutality and 2 copies of essence extraction its a possible gain 10 life which is kinda a big deal.
But with all the eldrazi being cheated into play due to aetherworks marvel, I'm thinking if it would be better to include summary dismissal instead of insidious will. We can still respond to aetherworks marvel that way right? Or am I mistaken bout it?
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Torrential Gearhulk
Instants (18)
4 Anticipate
4 Grasp of Darkness
2 Negate
2 Essence Extraction
3 Scatter to the Winds
3 Fortune's Favor
Sorceries (8)
4 Harsh Scrutiny
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Ruinous Path
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
Lands (26)
3 Blighted Fen
4 Choked Estuary
4 Island
4 Submerged Boneyard
4 Sunken Hollow
7 Swamp
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Essence Extraction
3 Flaying Tendrils
3 Lost Legacy
3 Summary Dismissal
2 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
Put the deck list from last night's FNM in spoiler tag as it is the same as the list in my previous post. I ended up 2-2-1 on the night, with my losses coming from mana issues. Going to be completely honest and say that I don't remember how the matches went but I beat UR Visions/Thero-Alchemist and mono-white fliers, tied 1-1 Grixis Emerge, lost to BR Control 1-2 with my one win coming on the back of Torrential Gearhulk getting me multiple draws with Fortune's Favor, and losses were due to mana issues, and lost to RG Energy Aggro where I flooded out and couldn't get to my answers
Overall, Torrential Gearhulk is an amazing card, the value it can generate is amazing. Fortune's Favor impressed me a lot, not only by occasionally tossing an instant into the yard but often being what I needed, even by taking the face down pile. If you aren't running a deck that needs energy, definitely consider it over Glimmer of Genius. Harsh Scrutiny was always a great card, allowing me to get good information to set up a Lost Legacy out of the board. The deck was really fun to play and I look forward to refining it down the road.
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Yes we can. I've been maindecking 1 Summary Dismissal for a while now (+2 more in the board, for actual eldrazi matchups) precisely because its reasonably flexible. Anything that uses the stack can be "countered" by SD. I had a damage race recently vs a UR alchemist deck where saving the two damage from the fevered visions won me the game. There are lots of very "corner case" scenarios, but when you put them all together, there is a relevant chunk of scenarios where the card is reasonable (not "good", and probably the first to come out vs non-eldrazi opponents, but still main deck worthy).
3 Blessed Alliance
1 Horribly Awry
2 Immolating Glare
1 Negate
1 Quarantine Field
2 Deadlock Trap
2 Skywhaler's Shot
2 Stasis Snare
4 Void Shatter
2 Dovin Baan
4 Glimmer of Genius
2 Fumigate
2 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
1 Descend upon the Sinful
2 Blighted Cataract
6 Island
2 Meandering River
6 Plains
4 Port Town
4 Prairie Stream
ON a different note: how do pple feel about authority of the consuls vs vehicles decks? I initially was skeptical, but i tried it and it worked pretty well; i did not test it much, so it could be a low sample size thing.
I just got an inkling on what cards we can use if we have any excess energy lying around and since most decks I've seen uses 1-2 copiess of aether hub + 2-3 copies of glimmer of genius, so its safe to assume that at any given time between mid to late game you have anywhere from 2-5 energy not being used, which is kind of a waste.
Deadlock trap in itself comes with 2 energy and stops Walker upticks or that fairly aggressive rolfcopter.
As for fortune's favor vs Glimmer of genius, I'm more in favor of GoG since it has the capacity to net you an answer that you can use immediately rather than having to wait for a gearhulk before you can reuse it. In my opinion, its a little more efficient than the former.
So does Favor: if you do not see what you need in the face up pile (an answer) you take the face down pile, just like scrying 2 to the bottom and drawing two. I'm most situations the only time I feel I would run Glimmer over Favor right now is in a deck that needs energy, otherwise the potential is there with Favor to get three card into your hand, where Glimmer will only ever get you two. imo Favor has a greater chance of getting you cards that you need than Glimmer.
EDIT: Just have a few thoughts on some powerful control cards currently in Standard
Torrential Gearhulk - I'll admit I was a skeptic when this card was revealed, thinking the instant only clause was too narrow, but boy was I wrong. getting repeat value off of your instant speed hand fuelers (Anticipate, Glimmer/Favor) is nice, as is flashing back grasp to deal with a late game Copter
Liliana, the Last Hope - currently one of the biggest thorns in the RW deck's side, as it kills most early threats and can make crewing difficult and value if you can get her to ult
Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet - great creature that generates tokens and can hose any deck with a recursion engine (like Grixis Emerge)
Lost Legacy - an amazing card out of the side if you learned enough about the deck you're facing in game one, allowing you to pull key pieces from the deck and make it that much harder for them to win
Flaying Tendrils - deals with most of the pesky creatures running around in vehicles, the small creatures from emerge decks, and tokens if they are still a thing.
Fumigate - for those in white this card is great, the first wrath effect I don't mind paying 5 for as life gain is always nice
Sorin, Grim Nemesis - another powerful card for those in white Sorin just does a lot that control decks like
Dovin Baan - this guy is another one to consider if your meta is swinging hard to the vehicle heavy decks as -3/-0 keeps several creatures from being able to crew while his ult is pretty much game over
Overall there are a lot of good cards in Standard for control based decks, the question becomes which fit with the deck you're trying to make and what is your meta
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
My issue with Epiphany is two fold. First, things get worse when the opponent chooses. I know it can be minor but they will always choose what benefits them the most. The second issue I have is that you can only cast it once, where both Glimmer and Favor both can be recast again with Torrential Gearhulk for increased value off the card
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
I tried to use Epiphany with metallurgic summonings. Strange story about MS: I did not think it was good when it was spoiled (the whole "5 mana does nothing when it ETBs" thing), but I got it in my mtgo pre-release draft. So I figured "ok, now that I actually own this thing, lets see if it is as bad as i thought". It has overperformed! True, you need to more or less stabilize by turn 5, but in an instant heavy deck it generates so many blockers and ambush situations that it's absurd. Every time I drop MS, if I untap with it and I'm not dead, I feel I cannot possibly lose. A typical sequence that comes up is somewhat as follows: T5: MS -> T6: Torrential Gearhulk, flashback a 3 or 4 mana spell (typically a glimmer of genius)-> now I have a 5/6, a 4/4 and 2 extra cards to completely obliterate your attacking force. MS has replaced fumigate as a board sweeper of sorts (vs decks that attack on the ground, of course.)
Why do I bring this up? Because MS creates a huge monster when you cast epiphany late game, and whatever your opponent puts in the yard can be (a) re-bought with a gearhulk or (b) re-bought with the summonings activated ability. Now, in all fairness, epiphany is a really late game card so it only works in grindy matchups and only as a 1-of. In a couple of control mirrors, post board, I cast ephiphany for X>8, and it is generally lights out, even when you get the worst pile. I'm not sure the meta is slow enough to warrant this sort of plan, but it is an interaction worth noting if the meta slows down after the PT.