Hey everyone, this list has been a nice contender in the BFZ-SOI-KLD-AKH standard, and only gets stronger with the introduction of three new cards: Drowned Catacomb, Chart a Course, and Search for Azcanta. The list hasn't changed too much, and the core still functions well. I feel this will be a great week 1 deck and potentially a great pro-tour choice.
My playgroup and I started talking about the merits of GPG on the Spikes discord with a few others, and while tweaking that deck early on and testing with payoff cards like Combat Celebrant, Cultivator of Blades, and Angel of Invention, we built and tuned UB Cycling. The list was rough, but, after some mana base adjustment, a brief experiment with Abandoned Sarcophagus, and a debate on the inclusion of Censor, I decided to throw it at a Standard competitive League on MTGO. Since that time, in competitive matches (defined as constructed league matches or sanctioned matches against actual known decks) I am 12 and 1.
The deck plays 33 cyclers main deck, which really makes MTG math interesting when you can, at any time, essentially replace a card in your hand with one on top of your library. The critical mass of cyclers also bolsters Vile Manifestation’s potency and ensures that you’re basically always ready to crack Gate whenever you’d like.
To the matchups: I have a couple streamed I believe on twitch (www.twitch.tv/pox1896).
Temur Energy 2-1 win
Grixis Control 2-1 win
Mono red aggro 2-0 win
UR Control 2-0 win
Mono red aggro 1-2 loss
(this ended my first comp league at 4-1, I then added flaying tendrils to SB)
I’ve seen lists that run it, and it’s just underwhelming. The lists that run these and tap out turn 2 for it completely miss the censor play. The great thing about not running SP is that your early game, with the exception of Vile Manifestation and Champion of Wits, is completely done on your opponent’s end step. Threatening countermagic is always a great way to have your opponent crawl out of the gates.
I’m just not sold on a 4 mana wrath when flaying tendrils does more against your rough matchups. Flaying Tendrils is better vs dusk//dawn, comes down earlier vs mono red, and exiles problematic zombies.
This is a new edition, and is a mini-Archfiend of Ifnir. This card, as a 1/2 with the ability to just throw random -1/-1 counters like candy, totally and completely swings the Mono-Red matchup. With the addition of Ruthless Sniper, Mono Red is now firmly favored.
Thank you for reading, thanks to Mono Blue Clue, Heskatar, jdmdave, Evo, and everyone else on discord for helping with this deck
footnote: While some of the matches were in paper and at an FNM, this is a highly competitive FNM in the Dallas Ft Worth area. I agree that typical FNM crowds are more relaxed, but I believe the match quality to be that of a PPTQ or WMCQ.
I took it through a friendly league and wound up 2-3. I got run over by the two focused aggro decks I ran into. The Ruthless Sniper is great if you get to untap with it but it doesn't kill anything when it comes down and is nicely shock sized. Vile Manifestation is a great roadblock but in the early game it is sidelined by Earthshaker Khenra and then Ahn-Crop Crasher.
Against RG or Temur Energy aggro their stuff gets real big real quick. A turn two Longtusk Cub when we're on the draw is a disaster. Again we need turn two Vile Manifestation to hold them off, which won't work if they've surrounded the Cub with Attune and Rogue Refiner.
The most frustrating thing for me was the mana. Filling the graveyard demands a lot of mana. Our early interaction is mana hungry. Our big finisher requires a mana investment to sweep the board even after it's in play. It's very hard to do all that when your lands are routinely coming into play tapped. There's also the frustrating Hollow One roulette where you have two lands in play, no lands in hand, two one mana cyclers and one or more Hollow Ones.
Once you get into the midgame the deck grinds like nobody's business, and the cycling does keep things consistent. I just found the opening few turns to be very awkward. It's possible I needed to mulligan more aggressively, but I was nervous about doing that with a 19 land deck.
My inclination would be to take out the Sunken Hollows for basic lands and replace the sniper with Fatal Push. I think that would help against the more streamlined aggro decks.
I couldn't afford the U/W or U/B decks on MTGO after Champion/Angel spiked hard, so I put together RB as a budget version. Still very fun/ decently competitive, especially w/ Archer vs Mono Red.
VERY untuned build, threw it together. Pretty sure blue is a straight upgrade, although Neonate has actually outperformed in corner cases when I couldn't spend mana to cycle (either for Archer pings or Archfiend triggers).
If you're going with red there's the wombo combo with God-Pharaoh's Gift + Combat Celebrant. A guy at FNM 20'd me from an empty board thanks to celebrants and Vizier of Many Faces. UR is probably a little better than RB, if only because Champion of Wits is absurd. UR also gets access to fastlands, which is nice.
The UB list featured in this thread isn't looking to combo off as hard. You get more consistency but I had a few occasions where I got God-Pharaoh's Gift active and it wasn't nearly enough to turn the tide. UB doesn't have access to something like Angel of Invention as an instant stabilizer, as far as I know.
I took it through a friendly league and wound up 2-3. I got run over by the two focused aggro decks I ran into. The Ruthless Sniper is great if you get to untap with it but it doesn't kill anything when it comes down and is nicely shock sized. Vile Manifestation is a great roadblock but in the early game it is sidelined by Earthshaker Khenra and then Ahn-Crop Crasher.
Against RG or Temur Energy aggro their stuff gets real big real quick. A turn two Longtusk Cub when we're on the draw is a disaster. Again we need turn two Vile Manifestation to hold them off, which won't work if they've surrounded the Cub with Attune and Rogue Refiner.
The most frustrating thing for me was the mana. Filling the graveyard demands a lot of mana. Our early interaction is mana hungry. Our big finisher requires a mana investment to sweep the board even after it's in play. It's very hard to do all that when your lands are routinely coming into play tapped. There's also the frustrating Hollow One roulette where you have two lands in play, no lands in hand, two one mana cyclers and one or more Hollow Ones.
Once you get into the midgame the deck grinds like nobody's business, and the cycling does keep things consistent. I just found the opening few turns to be very awkward. It's possible I needed to mulligan more aggressively, but I was nervous about doing that with a 19 land deck.
My inclination would be to take out the Sunken Hollows for basic lands and replace the sniper with Fatal Push. I think that would help against the more streamlined aggro decks.
I hope you continue having success with the deck.
I few that are helping playtest it have gone away from ruthless sniper and even hollow one to add 3 gifted Aetherborn and another playset of 1 mana cyclers (Lurching Rotbeast). This might be the best course of action, as Gifted Aetherborn has 3 toughness and relevant keywords both on turn 2 and with GPG. I feel like the Snipers make the 19 lands even more awkward, and because the mono red deck prevent blocking they often just sit unused on my board. I took the deck to a 3-2 competitive league last night with both losses to mono red agro (everywhere on mtgo) and both to having awkward ruthless snipers. I'll likely move the snipers to the board as a sub in for when I take out nimble obstructionist against mono red.
On the flip side, I did beat UW Gifts multiple times with ease (thanks to scarab feast).
Gifted Aetherborn is a solid card. It also gives a nice stabilizer for God-Pharaoh's Gift. Unfortunately it feels like the really gonzo reanimation cards are in white and red.
Minister of Inquiries is a one drop that gives the same not-always-useless 1/2 body as the sniper with the chance of turbocharging your start. It's not as strong without the Refurbish but there still might be some value there.
Do you not want any Fatal Push at all? It felt like a lot of the really big problem cards came down at one or two cmc. In the matchups where it's dead you'll probably have time to pitch it to Champion of Wits.
Scarab Feast was a bomb out of the sideboard, for sure.
Gifted Aetherborn is a solid card. It also gives a nice stabilizer for God-Pharaoh's Gift. Unfortunately it feels like the really gonzo reanimation cards are in white and red.
Minister of Inquiries is a one drop that gives the same not-always-useless 1/2 body as the sniper with the chance of turbocharging your start. It's not as strong without the Refurbish but there still might be some value there.
Do you not want any Fatal Push at all? It felt like a lot of the really big problem cards came down at one or two cmc. In the matchups where it's dead you'll probably have time to pitch it to Champion of Wits.
Scarab Feast was a bomb out of the sideboard, for sure.
Im going to play another competitive league tonight and tomorrow with the inclusion of Gifted Aetherborn and the reintroduction of Lurching Rotbeast (to take the place of a number of Hollow Ones). I'll report back how it goes. I like Ruthless Sniper much better than fatal push. He just wins a few matchups on his own. I've relegated Ruthless Sniper to the sideboard as additional ammunition against Mono Red.
I've looked at Minister of Inquiries. I'll look closer.
It's entertaining to note that the clause on Winding Constrictor is not a may ability. So Ruthless Sniper is pretty hilarious against gets running the Snek
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
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Can Countervailing Winds be playable here (in the SB over Negate) ?
It is mostly a hard counter which can also cycle, is the 3-mana too restrictive though ?
Another creature that seems pretty good for this deck is Wharf Infiltrator which can make an Eldrazi army with all the cycling.
The tokens cost more to make than Drake Haven but it counts as a creature for Gift which is good.
Shadowstorm Vizier seems like an interesting option as well, can it be good enough though ?
Can Countervailing Winds be playable here (in the SB over Negate) ?
It mostly a hard counter which can also cycle, is the 3-mana too restrictive though ?
Another creature that seems pretty good for this deck is Wharf Infiltrator which can make an Eldrazi army with all the cycling.
The tokens cost more to make than Drake Haven but it counts as a creature for Gift which is good.
Shadowstorm Vizier seems like an interesting option as well, can it be good enough though ?
Thanks for responding.
Yes, Censor and Nimble Obstructionist absolutely pull their weight. This deck taps its mana like a control deck, only cycling in the early game in their opponent's end step. Censor sometimes just blows out an opponent. Nimble Obstructionist often makes a cast out useless. They both belong in some fashion.
Countervailing winds has a few problems. First, it cycles for 2, which I don't want too much of. Second, it costs 3 CMC, something I don't like unless it's nimble obstructionist for obvious reasons. Lastly, its bad vs. graveyard hate. We don't want to open ourselves any further to grave hate. For those reasons Negate is the right pick.
As for Negate vs Lay Bare the Heart, It's all about forcing the opponent to play around Censor, Nimble, Negate, other potential shenanigans. I'd rather force my opponent to invest mana in a spell then have it countered, as opposed to ripping it from his hand on my turn, allowing him to untap and play his second best card without losing any tempo or curve.
Wharf Infiltrator is no Drake Haven and here's why. In the control matchup, Drake Haven is almost unremovable (Cast out, Commit, etc.) which gives the deck inevitability. Wharf Infiltrator will eat magma spray or fatal push and that will be the end of it. I bring in drake havens to blank the opponents removal, and while Wharf may make beefier tokens (at a higher premium), it still opens itself up to virtually all removal.
Shadowstorm Vizier its getting too cutesy with the "discard/cycling matters" theme of the deck. To be lethal or anywhere near, we need to cycle many many cards per turn. I just don't think there are any open spots. If I'm playing UB Cycling in commander, then sure.
How has the land count been for you who have tested? I've been testing this as well and 19 has felt really low, despite the fact that we cycle so much. I think after all the changes you described (removing Hollow One, Snipers to the side, Aetherborn maindeck), I have a similar deck that's running 21 lands. The two lands came in to replace 2 of the 4 Lurching Rotbeast that has been described above, and at least for me it's been fine. The reason I'm Ok with this is I have been pretty reliably able to hardcast the Gift or Eternalize Champion of Wits. I upped my land base to include 6 Islands and 5 Swamps, while still running the desert, because I noticed I had too many scenarios of lands entering tapped.
has anyone tried adding trophy mage to add some consistency and say a copy of filigree familiar, mirage mirror, or thirsting axe for some spice, jus dunno what to cut but could be some food for thought. could even help in shaping a more consistent sb
How has the land count been for you who have tested? I've been testing this as well and 19 has felt really low, despite the fact that we cycle so much. I think after all the changes you described (removing Hollow One, Snipers to the side, Aetherborn maindeck), I have a similar deck that's running 21 lands. The two lands came in to replace 2 of the 4 Lurching Rotbeast that has been described above, and at least for me it's been fine. The reason I'm Ok with this is I have been pretty reliably able to hardcast the Gift or Eternalize Champion of Wits. I upped my land base to include 6 Islands and 5 Swamps, while still running the desert, because I noticed I had too many scenarios of lands entering tapped.
-Drakeraistlin
To be honest, I've had a few games where I keep a one-lander and cycle 18 cards deep without finding a second land. I've also had games where I flood out and need to draw cyclers but have a grip full of lands. Most of the time, I'm just fine.
has anyone tried adding trophy mage to add some consistency and say a copy of filigree familiar, mirage mirror, or thirsting axe for some spice, jus dunno what to cut but could be some food for thought. could even help in shaping a more consistent sb
How has the land count been for you who have tested? I've been testing this as well and 19 has felt really low, despite the fact that we cycle so much. I think after all the changes you described (removing Hollow One, Snipers to the side, Aetherborn maindeck), I have a similar deck that's running 21 lands. The two lands came in to replace 2 of the 4 Lurching Rotbeast that has been described above, and at least for me it's been fine. The reason I'm Ok with this is I have been pretty reliably able to hardcast the Gift or Eternalize Champion of Wits. I upped my land base to include 6 Islands and 5 Swamps, while still running the desert, because I noticed I had too many scenarios of lands entering tapped.
-Drakeraistlin
The land count has been ok. For me the biggest problem has been the amount of lands coming into play tapped. While a one-land hand is no problem with all of the cyclers, if that one land is any of our duals then things get pretty darn slow. Also, cycling to hit land drops means that you aren't doing anything else to affect the board.
I do think the Champion offers the opportunity to "cycle" non-cycling cards like extra lands or Fatal Pushes.
The deck has a limited number of non-cycling spots. Mausoleum Wanderer makes sense to me in the same spot as Ruthless Sniper except against control instead of aggro.
The common shorthand I've seen for tokens is to pull the card halfway out of the sleeve. A guy at my FNM printed up custom transparent sleeves with the 4/4 black zombie text in the appropriate spots.
So this is what I played last night at my 5 round FNM. I lost one game to UR Control when I got stuck on 4 mana for half the deck, but didn't lose a game the rest of the night. Beat Temur Energy, 4 Color Visions/Approach of the Second Sun Control, 2x UR controls (with Bolas) and WB Zombies. I only had 3 archfiends, so I placed Lili in as I'd run her in a similar control version of this deck in the past. Lili over performed. Both abilities were relevant, and the fact that we get back zombies with gift makes her ult an actual goal, though we have so many good targets to buyback. Lurching rotbeast was great, and actually cast a few times. Gifted Aetherborn is a great card to easily side out vs control and pulled it's weight against zombies (would also have against pummeler which is big at my store). The other card that sticks out is Call the Bloodline. This card also over performed as, at times, I needed to stall and gain life with blocking, against control I needed cheap board presence. But mostly, the ability to guarantee 1 mana discard any card was huge for activating Archfiend and even curator. They also work well with the Aethersphere Harvester Sideboard.
Overall, very happy with the deck, and the two new inclusions of Lili and Call. The only thing I can think to get a 4th Archfiend would be to drop an Obstructionist (side or gone) as it was a GOOD card, but so situational that it felt weird being 2 of maindeck. There were times when I was stuck having to spend 3 mana on it one way or the other, and that took my turn.
I don't think Curse is where you want to be, Autority of the Consuls is good because of the enters the battlefield tapped clause. I think Collective Brutality is the card that should be played as I can kill a creature and gain you life. It can also serve as hand disruption for artifact removal.
I think Drake Haven is better. To kill with Faith of the Devoted you have to cycle enough cards, with Haven you can cycle a few cards and kill over time. Haven can also kill after it's been removed assuming you still have Drakes out.
Spot removal is a must in my opinion. Either Grasp or Push, I personally run 3x Grasp.
Mono-red has been an absolute nightmare when I piloted this deck. I'm not sure how aggressively we need to mulligan for Gifted Aetherborn and Ruthless Sniper, but I'd imagine pretty hard considering we have zero board interaction before turn 5. Our turn 2 creatures both get Earthshaker Khenraed and Ahn-Crop Crashered the following turn. We also have zero lifegain outside gifted so we're on an otherwise short clock. Ranumap Ruins and Sunscorched Desert offer ridiculous reach without considering both Hazoret the Fervent and Chandra, Torch of Defiance's 2 dmg shock.
Collective Brutality seems like a must out of the side vs all the aggro in the meta now. Taking out a creature, negating a shock, and discarding something like an Abrade is just brutal.
Here's the updated list:
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Fetid Pools
1 Ipnu Rivulet
5 Island
6 Swamp
Spells
3 Search for Azcanta
4 Censor
4 Vile Manifestation
4 Champion of Wits
1 Nimble Obstructionist
3 Gate to the Afterlife
4 Curator of Mysteries
4 Horror of the Broken Lands
4 Archfiend of Ifnir
3 Hollow One
4 Striped Riverwinder
2 God-Pharaoh’s Gift
3 Drake Haven
3 Negate
3 Scarab Feast
2 Consign // Oblivion
3 Duress
Original Post:
My playgroup and I started talking about the merits of GPG on the Spikes discord with a few others, and while tweaking that deck early on and testing with payoff cards like Combat Celebrant, Cultivator of Blades, and Angel of Invention, we built and tuned UB Cycling. The list was rough, but, after some mana base adjustment, a brief experiment with Abandoned Sarcophagus, and a debate on the inclusion of Censor, I decided to throw it at a Standard competitive League on MTGO. Since that time, in competitive matches (defined as constructed league matches or sanctioned matches against actual known decks) I am 12 and 1.
First, the list:
4 Choked Estuary
4 Fetid Pools
4 Sunken Hollow
1 Ipnu Rivulet
3 Island
3 Swamp
Spells
3 Censor
4 Vile Manifestation
4 Champion of Wits
2 Nimble Obstructionist
3 Gate to the Afterlife
4 Curator of Mysteries
3 Ruthless Sniper
4 Horror of the Broken Lands
4 Archfiend of Ifnir
4 Hollow One
4 Striped Riverwinder
2 God-Pharaoh’s Gift
3 Drake Haven
3 Negate
3 Scarab Feast
2 Consign // Oblivion
1 Dreamstealer
3 Flaying Tendrils
The deck plays 33 cyclers main deck, which really makes MTG math interesting when you can, at any time, essentially replace a card in your hand with one on top of your library. The critical mass of cyclers also bolsters Vile Manifestation’s potency and ensures that you’re basically always ready to crack Gate whenever you’d like.
To the matchups: I have a couple streamed I believe on twitch (www.twitch.tv/pox1896).
Temur Energy 2-1 win
Grixis Control 2-1 win
Mono red aggro 2-0 win
UR Control 2-0 win
Mono red aggro 1-2 loss
(this ended my first comp league at 4-1, I then added flaying tendrils to SB)
Temur Emerge 2-0 Win
UB Zombies 2-1 Win
Jund Energy 2-1 Win
UW Monument 2-1 Win
UW God Pharaoh’s Gift 2-0 Win
GR Ramp 2-0 Win
UW Control 2-0 Win
Temur Tower 2-1 Win
Possible future inclusions and notable omissions:
>>Strategic Planning
I’ve seen lists that run it, and it’s just underwhelming. The lists that run these and tap out turn 2 for it completely miss the censor play. The great thing about not running SP is that your early game, with the exception of Vile Manifestation and Champion of Wits, is completely done on your opponent’s end step. Threatening countermagic is always a great way to have your opponent crawl out of the gates.
>>Yahenni’s Expertise
I’m just not sold on a 4 mana wrath when flaying tendrils does more against your rough matchups. Flaying Tendrils is better vs dusk//dawn, comes down earlier vs mono red, and exiles problematic zombies.
>>Ruthless Sniper
This is a new edition, and is a mini-Archfiend of Ifnir. This card, as a 1/2 with the ability to just throw random -1/-1 counters like candy, totally and completely swings the Mono-Red matchup. With the addition of Ruthless Sniper, Mono Red is now firmly favored.
>>The Second God-Pharaoh's Gift
I've listened to you, it's in.
Thank you for reading, thanks to Mono Blue Clue, Heskatar, jdmdave, Evo, and everyone else on discord for helping with this deck
footnote: While some of the matches were in paper and at an FNM, this is a highly competitive FNM in the Dallas Ft Worth area. I agree that typical FNM crowds are more relaxed, but I believe the match quality to be that of a PPTQ or WMCQ.
Do you really only want three Gate to the Afterlife? It seems like a card that you always want to have and that you don't mind seeing in multiples.
Against RG or Temur Energy aggro their stuff gets real big real quick. A turn two Longtusk Cub when we're on the draw is a disaster. Again we need turn two Vile Manifestation to hold them off, which won't work if they've surrounded the Cub with Attune and Rogue Refiner.
The most frustrating thing for me was the mana. Filling the graveyard demands a lot of mana. Our early interaction is mana hungry. Our big finisher requires a mana investment to sweep the board even after it's in play. It's very hard to do all that when your lands are routinely coming into play tapped. There's also the frustrating Hollow One roulette where you have two lands in play, no lands in hand, two one mana cyclers and one or more Hollow Ones.
Once you get into the midgame the deck grinds like nobody's business, and the cycling does keep things consistent. I just found the opening few turns to be very awkward. It's possible I needed to mulligan more aggressively, but I was nervous about doing that with a 19 land deck.
My inclination would be to take out the Sunken Hollows for basic lands and replace the sniper with Fatal Push. I think that would help against the more streamlined aggro decks.
I hope you continue having success with the deck.
VERY untuned build, threw it together. Pretty sure blue is a straight upgrade, although Neonate has actually outperformed in corner cases when I couldn't spend mana to cycle (either for Archer pings or Archfiend triggers).
3x Insolent Neonate
1x Ruthless Sniper
4x Vile Manifestation
4x Cathartic Reunion
4x Gate to the Afterlife
4x Lurching Rotbeast
4x Horror of the Broken Lands
3x Archfiend of Ifnir
4x Hollow One
4x Desert Ceredon
2x God-Pharaoh's Gift
Lands (23)
3x Canyon Slough
4x Foreboding Ruins
2x Hostile Desert
6x Mountain
8x Swamp
SB:
3x Ruthless Sniper
3x Scarab Feast
3x Faith of the Devoted (control? we don't have Drake Haven ;___;)
2x Noxious Gearhulk (has paid dividends vs aggro)
2x Chaos Maw
I plan on getting U/B on paper, but I thought I'd throw out this budget option for those interested!
The UB list featured in this thread isn't looking to combo off as hard. You get more consistency but I had a few occasions where I got God-Pharaoh's Gift active and it wasn't nearly enough to turn the tide. UB doesn't have access to something like Angel of Invention as an instant stabilizer, as far as I know.
I few that are helping playtest it have gone away from ruthless sniper and even hollow one to add 3 gifted Aetherborn and another playset of 1 mana cyclers (Lurching Rotbeast). This might be the best course of action, as Gifted Aetherborn has 3 toughness and relevant keywords both on turn 2 and with GPG. I feel like the Snipers make the 19 lands even more awkward, and because the mono red deck prevent blocking they often just sit unused on my board. I took the deck to a 3-2 competitive league last night with both losses to mono red agro (everywhere on mtgo) and both to having awkward ruthless snipers. I'll likely move the snipers to the board as a sub in for when I take out nimble obstructionist against mono red.
On the flip side, I did beat UW Gifts multiple times with ease (thanks to scarab feast).
Minister of Inquiries is a one drop that gives the same not-always-useless 1/2 body as the sniper with the chance of turbocharging your start. It's not as strong without the Refurbish but there still might be some value there.
Do you not want any Fatal Push at all? It felt like a lot of the really big problem cards came down at one or two cmc. In the matchups where it's dead you'll probably have time to pitch it to Champion of Wits.
Scarab Feast was a bomb out of the sideboard, for sure.
Im going to play another competitive league tonight and tomorrow with the inclusion of Gifted Aetherborn and the reintroduction of Lurching Rotbeast (to take the place of a number of Hollow Ones). I'll report back how it goes. I like Ruthless Sniper much better than fatal push. He just wins a few matchups on his own. I've relegated Ruthless Sniper to the sideboard as additional ammunition against Mono Red.
I've looked at Minister of Inquiries. I'll look closer.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Do Censor and Nimble Obstructionist pull their weight in the deck ?
Wouldn't some maindeck removal like Grasp of Darkness work better ?
Can Countervailing Winds be playable here (in the SB over Negate) ?
It is mostly a hard counter which can also cycle, is the 3-mana too restrictive though ?
Is Negate better than a discard spell like Lay Bare the Heart in this deck's SB ?
Another creature that seems pretty good for this deck is Wharf Infiltrator which can make an Eldrazi army with all the cycling.
The tokens cost more to make than Drake Haven but it counts as a creature for Gift which is good.
Shadowstorm Vizier seems like an interesting option as well, can it be good enough though ?
Thanks for responding.
Yes, Censor and Nimble Obstructionist absolutely pull their weight. This deck taps its mana like a control deck, only cycling in the early game in their opponent's end step. Censor sometimes just blows out an opponent. Nimble Obstructionist often makes a cast out useless. They both belong in some fashion.
Countervailing winds has a few problems. First, it cycles for 2, which I don't want too much of. Second, it costs 3 CMC, something I don't like unless it's nimble obstructionist for obvious reasons. Lastly, its bad vs. graveyard hate. We don't want to open ourselves any further to grave hate. For those reasons Negate is the right pick.
As for Negate vs Lay Bare the Heart, It's all about forcing the opponent to play around Censor, Nimble, Negate, other potential shenanigans. I'd rather force my opponent to invest mana in a spell then have it countered, as opposed to ripping it from his hand on my turn, allowing him to untap and play his second best card without losing any tempo or curve.
Wharf Infiltrator is no Drake Haven and here's why. In the control matchup, Drake Haven is almost unremovable (Cast out, Commit, etc.) which gives the deck inevitability. Wharf Infiltrator will eat magma spray or fatal push and that will be the end of it. I bring in drake havens to blank the opponents removal, and while Wharf may make beefier tokens (at a higher premium), it still opens itself up to virtually all removal.
Shadowstorm Vizier its getting too cutesy with the "discard/cycling matters" theme of the deck. To be lethal or anywhere near, we need to cycle many many cards per turn. I just don't think there are any open spots. If I'm playing UB Cycling in commander, then sure.
-Drakeraistlin
To be honest, I've had a few games where I keep a one-lander and cycle 18 cards deep without finding a second land. I've also had games where I flood out and need to draw cyclers but have a grip full of lands. Most of the time, I'm just fine.
I think the cycling itself adds consistency.
The land count has been ok. For me the biggest problem has been the amount of lands coming into play tapped. While a one-land hand is no problem with all of the cyclers, if that one land is any of our duals then things get pretty darn slow. Also, cycling to hit land drops means that you aren't doing anything else to affect the board.
I do think the Champion offers the opportunity to "cycle" non-cycling cards like extra lands or Fatal Pushes.
Also, I am aware that this is a slight tangent, but how do you represent God-pharaoh's gift tokens in paper magic?
The common shorthand I've seen for tokens is to pull the card halfway out of the sleeve. A guy at my FNM printed up custom transparent sleeves with the 4/4 black zombie text in the appropriate spots.
3 Gifted Aetherborn
2 Lurching Rotbeast
4 horror of the Broken Lands
3 Archfiend of Ifnir
4 Champion of Wits
2 Nimble Obstructionist
4 Curator of Mysteries
4 Striped Riverwinder
1 Call the Bloodline
3 Censor
3 Gate to the Afterlife
2 God-Pharaoh's Gift
6 Swamp
5 Island
4 Fetid Pools
4 Choked Estuary
1 Ipnu Rivulet
1 Dreamstealer
3 Ruthless Sniper
2 Scarab Feast
3 Flaying Tendrils
1 Consign//Oblivion
2 Negate
2 Drake Haven
So this is what I played last night at my 5 round FNM. I lost one game to UR Control when I got stuck on 4 mana for half the deck, but didn't lose a game the rest of the night. Beat Temur Energy, 4 Color Visions/Approach of the Second Sun Control, 2x UR controls (with Bolas) and WB Zombies. I only had 3 archfiends, so I placed Lili in as I'd run her in a similar control version of this deck in the past. Lili over performed. Both abilities were relevant, and the fact that we get back zombies with gift makes her ult an actual goal, though we have so many good targets to buyback. Lurching rotbeast was great, and actually cast a few times. Gifted Aetherborn is a great card to easily side out vs control and pulled it's weight against zombies (would also have against pummeler which is big at my store). The other card that sticks out is Call the Bloodline. This card also over performed as, at times, I needed to stall and gain life with blocking, against control I needed cheap board presence. But mostly, the ability to guarantee 1 mana discard any card was huge for activating Archfiend and even curator. They also work well with the Aethersphere Harvester Sideboard.
Overall, very happy with the deck, and the two new inclusions of Lili and Call. The only thing I can think to get a 4th Archfiend would be to drop an Obstructionist (side or gone) as it was a GOOD card, but so situational that it felt weird being 2 of maindeck. There were times when I was stuck having to spend 3 mana on it one way or the other, and that took my turn.
Are Flaying Tendrils and Ruthless Sniper good enough (they seem a bit slow) or would something like Trespasser's Curse be a good addition ?
Also what about replacing Drake Haven with Faith of the Devoted ?
Maindeck Grasp of Darkness seems pretty important as well.
It seems like people like Sniper, I prefer Gifted Aetherborn. Flaying Tendrils is probably necessary.
I don't think Curse is where you want to be, Autority of the Consuls is good because of the enters the battlefield tapped clause. I think Collective Brutality is the card that should be played as I can kill a creature and gain you life. It can also serve as hand disruption for artifact removal.
I think Drake Haven is better. To kill with Faith of the Devoted you have to cycle enough cards, with Haven you can cycle a few cards and kill over time. Haven can also kill after it's been removed assuming you still have Drakes out.
Spot removal is a must in my opinion. Either Grasp or Push, I personally run 3x Grasp.
I'm not entirely sold on Flaying Tendrils in the matchup (haven't tested it). You run into problems against versions running 3 toughness drops (Kari Zev, Skyship Raider, Hanweir Garrison, Bloodrage Brawler, & triggered Soul-scar Mage) while not touching their 4+ drops.
The one positive is that the deck has more than doubled in price so we will hopefully see a more budgeted version of it.
Grasp of Darkness is a smart choice right now as well, taking full advantage of being in the best color to answer Hazoret the Fervent.