Kind of funny that no one thought about trying to do a Metalwork combo with the gifts and throw Marionette master in with it. I've always liked Kevin's build (also love it when someone shares the same first name as me in real life. )
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Right? I say we splash red for cathartic reunions and maybe take out a ballista and a hope for two saheeli to help setup the combo or down right win the game with gift
Conley did a write-up about his deck earlier this week. It's worth a read, especially if you think adding random alternate win conditions is a good idea for this deck.
I've been inspired, and here's my take on the deck. I canned Tezzeret for Anointed Procession, added some more treasure sources. This is far from tuned, but even so it's been munching down other brews. All the treasure and scrying makes for a very quick route to a Marionette kill.
The thing about tezzeret is that he can buff marionette for huge damage, Act as non destroying removal trigger scry and revolt and win the game himself through emblem.
I've been inspired, and here's my take on the deck. I canned Tezzeret for Anointed Procession, added some more treasure sources. This is far from tuned, but even so it's been munching down other brews. All the treasure and scrying makes for a very quick route to a Marionette kill.
I'm happy to see Anointed Procession making it's way into discussions, but I haven't actually tested the card in any of my builds. When you take your deck to events, please do a report for this thread!
I spent the weekend getting my Legacy reps in with UB Landstill, so I didn't actually play any standard, but next week I'll report back with results!
Monday Night Magic, Procession was among the best cards in the deck. Except when I had no blockers and no stockpile and needed some. Also Procession did a terrible job in isolation of taming a longtusk cub. I believe my build simply needs to change to have more defensive ability, as in no more scrapheaps because otherwise it works great.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
Monday Night Magic, Procession was among the best cards in the deck. Except when I had no blockers and no stockpile and needed some. Also Procession did a terrible job in isolation of taming a longtusk cub. I believe my build simply needs to change to have more defensive ability, as in no more scrapheaps because otherwise it works great.
It sounds like your deck just didn't cooperate with you unfortunately. You have plenty of ways to interact with Longtusk Cub and you just didn't draw them. Don't sweat the variance, and play more games!
The choice between Tezzeret and anointed procession really boils down to which one interacts better. The reality is that you are rarely generating more than one treasure a turn, so Tezzeret is a doubling season already and does other things when you need him to. Token decks want procession because of raise the alarm kind of effects. There aren't many options at 4 cmc that can generate more blockers at the moment and persist.
Basically, going with procession is going all in on spell swindle and marionette masters minion mode.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I've been following the different versions Conley Woods has been trying out.
I feel like there is definitely something to the core cards of Treasure Map, Marionette Master, Tezzeret the Schemer, and Hidden Stockpile.
It almost feels like outside of those, the rest of the deck is medium at best.
Last couple days, Conley has been trying out a version that swamps Contraband Kingpin for Supreme Will (to be cold to opponent's removal), and Implement of Examination over Doomfall (another artifact that can be sacrificed on the cheap).
I've been following the different versions Conley Woods has been trying out.
I feel like there is definitely something to the core cards of Treasure Map, Marionette Master, Tezzeret the Schemer, and Hidden Stockpile.
It almost feels like outside of those, the rest of the deck is medium at best.
Last couple days, Conley has been trying out a version that swamps Contraband Kingpin for Supreme Will (to be cold to opponent's removal), and Implement of Examination over Doomfall (another artifact that can be sacrificed on the cheap).
Still don't feel he's quite there yet though.
The problem I have with cutting Contraband Kingpin and swapping Supreme Will in it's place is that it starts to put the deck into another identity crisis (as if that wasn't a huge problem already). Contraband Kingpin is, imo, the best creature in the deck, and is quite flexible against the field, excluding the Control variants. When our deck has an answer to literally anything the meta can throw at us, being able to scry numerous times to find that answer is paramount to the deck's success. If anyone is worried about their opponent's removal, they can start running Duress in the mainboard, which, depending on the meta, doesn't seem like a bad idea these days.
Doomfall in the mainboard is a meta call against UB Control. If you expect to see a good amount of UB Control in your meta, run at least 2 Doomfall in your main 60.
Since I'm in Japan, I expect to see a meta of at least 40% UB Control and UW Approach at my FNMs, Showdowns, and minor tournaments. This will lead me to going down on Fatal Push, up on Doomfall, and up on Harsh Scrutiny, as well. Harsh Scrutiny is actually very good proactive disruption in the current meta. Even against UB Control, you have targets that Duress can't hit (The Scarab God and Torrential Gearhulk).
The point I'm trying to make is that Esper Hidden Trea-zzeret can completely destroy a meta if you know what to expect. However, in Conley Wood's testing, the online meta is much more unpredictable and volatile to new trends, spice, and rogue decks that queue up for Competitive Leagues. Again, I wouldn't sweat the variance, and I encourage everyone to read Conley Wood's article again and understand why there are so many flex-spots.
I've been following the different versions Conley Woods has been trying out.
I feel like there is definitely something to the core cards of Treasure Map, Marionette Master, Tezzeret the Schemer, and Hidden Stockpile.
It almost feels like outside of those, the rest of the deck is medium at best.
Last couple days, Conley has been trying out a version that swamps Contraband Kingpin for Supreme Will (to be cold to opponent's removal), and Implement of Examination over Doomfall (another artifact that can be sacrificed on the cheap).
Still don't feel he's quite there yet though.
The problem I have with cutting Contraband Kingpin and swapping Supreme Will in it's place is that it starts to put the deck into another identity crisis (as if that wasn't a huge problem already). Contraband Kingpin is, imo, the best creature in the deck, and is quite flexible against the field, excluding the Control variants. When our deck has an answer to literally anything the meta can throw at us, being able to scry numerous times to find that answer is paramount to the deck's success. If anyone is worried about their opponent's removal, they can start running Duress in the mainboard, which, depending on the meta, doesn't seem like a bad idea these days.
Doomfall in the mainboard is a meta call against UB Control. If you expect to see a good amount of UB Control in your meta, run at least 2 Doomfall in your main 60.
Since I'm in Japan, I expect to see a meta of at least 40% UB Control and UW Approach at my FNMs, Showdowns, and minor tournaments. This will lead me to going down on Fatal Push, up on Doomfall, and up on Harsh Scrutiny, as well. Harsh Scrutiny is actually very good proactive disruption in the current meta. Even against UB Control, you have targets that Duress can't hit (The Scarab God and Torrential Gearhulk).
The point I'm trying to make is that Esper Hidden Trea-zzeret can completely destroy a meta if you know what to expect. However, in Conley Wood's testing, the online meta is much more unpredictable and volatile to new trends, spice, and rogue decks that queue up for Competitive Leagues. Again, I wouldn't sweat the variance, and I encourage everyone to read Conley Wood's article again and understand why there are so many flex-spots.
I get what you mean. I think Conley understands that there is a lot in the deck that doesn't quite feel "there" and is trying to find the best build against most of the meta. I personally think Doomfall is bad. I also don't like Supreme Will in this deck either.
His logic for turning off opponent's Fatal Push is quite sound. He also makes sense in how he explains the curve of the deck. Turn 1-2 you want to play a permanent. Turn 3 you generally are either playing a Map and leaving mana up to activate, or Hidden Stockpile for the same reason. Doomfall on turn 3 is by far one of the worst plays against any deck not control. Turn 4 you want to remove something with Cast Out or stick a Tezzeret.
I feel a problem with this deck is no card advantage. Sure you have all the scrying in the world with Treasure Map, Hidden Stockpile, and Contraband Kingpin, if you're still playing it, but that doesn't help you pull ahead. All control decks need a way to accumulate card advantage, and I feel this deck doesn't do that. Living off the top of your deck, even if you can mitigate what the top card is to an extent, is still not a place control decks want to be. That's exactly what Conley said this deck is too: a control deck.
i've played conley's contraband build for a few weeks now and i've came to the same conclusion. most of the games i'm scrying towards answers but as there's no card advantage I eventually reach a state of trying to top deck every turn for answers or master for the win. some days you get there some times they top deck glorybringers and you're fked.
deck needs a way to pull ahead in grindy match ups instead of staying at parity.
i've played conley's contraband build for a few weeks now and i've came to the same conclusion. most of the games i'm scrying towards answers but as there's no card advantage I eventually reach a state of trying to top deck every turn for answers or master for the win. some days you get there some times they top deck glorybringers and you're fked.
deck needs a way to pull ahead in grindy match ups instead of staying at parity.
I actually have just started trying out Chart a Course.
I don't have many games in with it, but 2 mana, draw 2 seems quite good. We also can very easily negate the downside of discarding by attacking with a token we otherwise would probably sacrifice to Stockpile anyways.
I feel that right now the following seems fairly locked in:
Treasure Cove is a source of card draw. I feel a little more would be good, but wouldn't want to cut too much of artifacts. Maybe the Black puzzleknot would be a good idea? Your other option instead of card draw is some kind of mana sink. Combined with infinite scry, you wouldn't be lacking for productive things to do to pull ahead.
The choice between Tezzeret and anointed procession really boils down to which one interacts better. The reality is that you are rarely generating more than one treasure a turn, so Tezzeret is a doubling season already and does other things when you need him to. Token decks want procession because of raise the alarm kind of effects. There aren't many options at 4 cmc that can generate more blockers at the moment and persist.
Basically, going with procession is going all in on spell swindle and marionette masters minion mode.
This is only true based on certain assumptions of the deck structure. Procession does an amazing job generating ground blockers, which eliminates most needs for removal. Procession also doubles Treasure Cove treasures which in my experience was very good. You can build the deck to have other token sources besides which overall makes the card very good. And Procession also tends to be harder to remove. Ultimately, it's not a small decision and your choice should significantly impact your other card choices.
@Iajube you're not wrong in saying Treasure Cove is a source of card advantage, but in my opinion, if you're sacrificing Treasures to drawing cards instead of sacrificing them for the Marionette Master kill, you're probably not doing too hot.
I am going to keep trying out Chart a Course.
For reference, here is my main deck. Apologize in advance for being on mobile and not knowing how to made decklists look all pretty.
4 WB tapland (on MTGO and Concealed Courtyard is expensive)
4 Evolving Wild
2 Fetid Pool
2 Drowned Catacomb
2 Glacial Fortress
1 Field of Ruin
3 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Island
Spell Swindle is the card I really don't like right now. I never feel I have the opportunity to cast it, as I'm mostly playing at Sorcery Speed.
The blue puzzleknot is CA and a combo piece.
T3 puzzleknot
T4 tez +
T5 + tez
T6 master buff with tezz sac etherium sac puzzleknot 21 damage
I hate to be this picky, but the blue puzzleknot is NOT card advantage. It's literally no different than scrying with Treasure Map, Hidden Stockpile, or Contraband Kingpin.
Sure, just like those cards I just mentioned, it helps set up your following draws, but it will not pull you ahead at all. A deck like this wants to have cards be fairly versatile. Blue puzzleknot really is there to help facilitate the combo.
I hate to be this picky, but the blue puzzleknot is NOT card advantage. It's literally no different than scrying with Treasure Map, Hidden Stockpile, or Contraband Kingpin.
Sure, just like those cards I just mentioned, it helps set up your following draws, but it will not pull you ahead at all. A deck like this wants to have cards be fairly versatile. Blue puzzleknot really is there to help facilitate the combo.
I think Daleos got mixed up. It's either Metalspinner's Puzzleknot or Implement of Examination. The last thing this deck needs is more scrying. Instant speed card draw on an artifact can be nice though because it allows us to rip a card or two off the top when we are in the middle of 3 scry 1's so none of the scry is wasted. It's also just another artifact to sacrifice to Master.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
http://www.numotgaming.com/esper-puppet-in-standard/
24 core
23 land
Yeah for some reason i alway think of innistrad when i hear 'cathar'
4x Concealed Courtyard
2x Drowned Catacomb
4x Evolving Wilds
2x Fetid Pools
2x Glacial Fortress
2x Island
2x Plains
4x Swamp
Instant (6)
4x Fatal Push
2x Spell Swindle
Creature (13)
4x Contraband Kingpin
3x Marionette Master
1x Ruthless Knave
3x Sailor of Means
2x Scrapheap Scrounger
4x Anointed Procession
4x Hidden Stockpile
2x Ixalan's Binding
1x Revel in Riches
Sorcery (2)
2x Battle at the Bridge
Artifact (6)
3x Renegade Map
3x Treasure Map
1x Authority of the Consuls
2x Crook of Condemnation
3x Duress
2x Dusk
1x Fumigate
2x Metallic Rebuke
2x Negate
2x Trespasser's Curse
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
I'm happy to see Anointed Procession making it's way into discussions, but I haven't actually tested the card in any of my builds. When you take your deck to events, please do a report for this thread!
I spent the weekend getting my Legacy reps in with UB Landstill, so I didn't actually play any standard, but next week I'll report back with results!
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
It sounds like your deck just didn't cooperate with you unfortunately. You have plenty of ways to interact with Longtusk Cub and you just didn't draw them. Don't sweat the variance, and play more games!
Basically, going with procession is going all in on spell swindle and marionette masters minion mode.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I feel like there is definitely something to the core cards of Treasure Map, Marionette Master, Tezzeret the Schemer, and Hidden Stockpile.
It almost feels like outside of those, the rest of the deck is medium at best.
Last couple days, Conley has been trying out a version that swamps Contraband Kingpin for Supreme Will (to be cold to opponent's removal), and Implement of Examination over Doomfall (another artifact that can be sacrificed on the cheap).
Still don't feel he's quite there yet though.
The problem I have with cutting Contraband Kingpin and swapping Supreme Will in it's place is that it starts to put the deck into another identity crisis (as if that wasn't a huge problem already). Contraband Kingpin is, imo, the best creature in the deck, and is quite flexible against the field, excluding the Control variants. When our deck has an answer to literally anything the meta can throw at us, being able to scry numerous times to find that answer is paramount to the deck's success. If anyone is worried about their opponent's removal, they can start running Duress in the mainboard, which, depending on the meta, doesn't seem like a bad idea these days.
Doomfall in the mainboard is a meta call against UB Control. If you expect to see a good amount of UB Control in your meta, run at least 2 Doomfall in your main 60.
Since I'm in Japan, I expect to see a meta of at least 40% UB Control and UW Approach at my FNMs, Showdowns, and minor tournaments. This will lead me to going down on Fatal Push, up on Doomfall, and up on Harsh Scrutiny, as well. Harsh Scrutiny is actually very good proactive disruption in the current meta. Even against UB Control, you have targets that Duress can't hit (The Scarab God and Torrential Gearhulk).
The point I'm trying to make is that Esper Hidden Trea-zzeret can completely destroy a meta if you know what to expect. However, in Conley Wood's testing, the online meta is much more unpredictable and volatile to new trends, spice, and rogue decks that queue up for Competitive Leagues. Again, I wouldn't sweat the variance, and I encourage everyone to read Conley Wood's article again and understand why there are so many flex-spots.
I get what you mean. I think Conley understands that there is a lot in the deck that doesn't quite feel "there" and is trying to find the best build against most of the meta. I personally think Doomfall is bad. I also don't like Supreme Will in this deck either.
His logic for turning off opponent's Fatal Push is quite sound. He also makes sense in how he explains the curve of the deck. Turn 1-2 you want to play a permanent. Turn 3 you generally are either playing a Map and leaving mana up to activate, or Hidden Stockpile for the same reason. Doomfall on turn 3 is by far one of the worst plays against any deck not control. Turn 4 you want to remove something with Cast Out or stick a Tezzeret.
I feel a problem with this deck is no card advantage. Sure you have all the scrying in the world with Treasure Map, Hidden Stockpile, and Contraband Kingpin, if you're still playing it, but that doesn't help you pull ahead. All control decks need a way to accumulate card advantage, and I feel this deck doesn't do that. Living off the top of your deck, even if you can mitigate what the top card is to an extent, is still not a place control decks want to be. That's exactly what Conley said this deck is too: a control deck.
deck needs a way to pull ahead in grindy match ups instead of staying at parity.
I actually have just started trying out Chart a Course.
I don't have many games in with it, but 2 mana, draw 2 seems quite good. We also can very easily negate the downside of discarding by attacking with a token we otherwise would probably sacrifice to Stockpile anyways.
I feel that right now the following seems fairly locked in:
4x Renegade Map
2-4x Fatal Push
4x Hidden Stockpile
4x Treasure Map
3-4x Cast Out
4x Tezzeret the Schemer
2-4x Fumigate
3-4x Marionette Master
22-23 lands
The rest is completely up in the air and should be, in my opinion, be considered "flex slots".
This is only true based on certain assumptions of the deck structure. Procession does an amazing job generating ground blockers, which eliminates most needs for removal. Procession also doubles Treasure Cove treasures which in my experience was very good. You can build the deck to have other token sources besides which overall makes the card very good. And Procession also tends to be harder to remove. Ultimately, it's not a small decision and your choice should significantly impact your other card choices.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
I am going to keep trying out Chart a Course.
For reference, here is my main deck. Apologize in advance for being on mobile and not knowing how to made decklists look all pretty.
4 Renegade Map
4 Fatal Push
4 Chart a Course
4 Hidden Stockpile
4 Treasure Map
4 Cast Out
4 Tezzeret the Schemer
3 Fumigate
2 Spell Swindle
4 Marionette Master
4 WB tapland (on MTGO and Concealed Courtyard is expensive)
4 Evolving Wild
2 Fetid Pool
2 Drowned Catacomb
2 Glacial Fortress
1 Field of Ruin
3 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Island
Spell Swindle is the card I really don't like right now. I never feel I have the opportunity to cast it, as I'm mostly playing at Sorcery Speed.
T3 puzzleknot
T4 tez +
T5 + tez
T6 master buff with tezz sac etherium sac puzzleknot 21 damage
I hate to be this picky, but the blue puzzleknot is NOT card advantage. It's literally no different than scrying with Treasure Map, Hidden Stockpile, or Contraband Kingpin.
Sure, just like those cards I just mentioned, it helps set up your following draws, but it will not pull you ahead at all. A deck like this wants to have cards be fairly versatile. Blue puzzleknot really is there to help facilitate the combo.
I think Daleos got mixed up. It's either Metalspinner's Puzzleknot or Implement of Examination. The last thing this deck needs is more scrying. Instant speed card draw on an artifact can be nice though because it allows us to rip a card or two off the top when we are in the middle of 3 scry 1's so none of the scry is wasted. It's also just another artifact to sacrifice to Master.