In 21 games, I've never been out of something to do with my lands : Daring Saboteur, Fathom Fleet Captain and The Scarab God all provide pseudo-card advantage and are great mana sinks ; and Hostage Taker is pure card advantage. Ifnir Deadlandsis not required for our deck : it's not a Swamp (to fix Drowned Catacomb), it costs life to produce B (and we need BB in the matchups where life will be in short supply), and we just don't need another mana sink (and one so expansive and with embedded card disadvantage).
I've traded the 2 Chart the Course in the main deck for 2 Siren's Ruse. I still have to test out if this is a good move, but I'm always disappointed spending Lookout's Dispersal on a removal when I see a better target next turn. Siren's Ruse can be used exclusively to deal with removals, save a Pirate from a bad block, and reset Hostage Taker at instant speed (and stealing Gideon!). Drawing a card on top of that is amazing. Siren's Ruse is a better fit for us in the axis where we're fighting (Aggro-Control).
SIDEBOARD PLAN :
vs Control (UWx Approach) : -3 Fatal Push, -2 Walk the Plank, -4 Hostage Taker ; +3 Duress, +2 Lost Legacy, +2 Siren's Ruse, +2 Spell Pierce.
vs Aggro (Rx Ramunap) : -2 Fell Flagship, -2 Hostage Taker, -1 Duress ; +2 Harsh Scrutiny, +1 Fatal Push, +2 Walk the Plank.
vs Midrange (BUGx Energy) : -2 Siren's Ruse, -1 Duress, -2 Kitesail Freebooter, -2 Fell Flagship ; +2 Harsh Scrutiny, +1 Fatal Push, +2 Walk the Plank, +2 Lost Legacy (but swap 1 Walk the Plank for 1 Trial of Ambition if opponent plays Bristling Hydra or Carnage Tyrant).
vs Combo (Tokens, Gift or Pummeler) : Lost Legacy, Spell Pierce and Duress should be good, and some others, but it really depends on the specific Combo plan.
EDIT - Primer above has been updated (deck list, SB plan, some descriptions).
Yeah, I'm thinking the same thing with the aerialist. Daring saboteur is kind of a garbage fire on legs compared to its predecessors, but that seems to be a theme with this set. We have a "not quite inferno titan" in the set, a "not quite sun titan" in the set, a worse doomblade, etc. So who knows.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Metallic Mimic would be better in a RB Pirates Aggro deck. I'm a fan of that card, but it really is not its place in a deck with only 18 Pirates. Also, playing the +1/+1 counters game means going Aggro, and I don't think Pirates can reasonably perform on that axis (currently filled by Ramunap Red). UB Pirates decks stand alone in the Aggro-Control niche of Standard's metagame, and I'm certain it would be a mistake to try to do better than the other established decks in their respective niches. UB Pirates is a Jack-of-all-trades deck : not a specialist in anything, but able to do a lot of things and fight well enough on the opponent's most vulnerable axis to win most games and matchups (be Aggro vs Control, be Control vs Combo and Midrange, and be Midrange vs Aggro ; our hand disruption cards are the best way to tell us how to fight and win, and to take away opponent’s best tools).
Mimic would force us in a role, and that is bad, IMHO (it's actually the same reasonning than Storm Fleet Aerialist).
After having played last FNM with the deck I have come to some conclusions:
- If Ruin raideris going to be a 3-4 of (which has worked fine for me), there needs to be a life-gain source maindeck. Otherwise, we are found in situations in which although we have control of the board AND card advantage, we cannot attack/draw because raider just kills us. I am thinking about 2x Athersphere harvester mainand removing the Fell flagships alltogether. The thing is that the ships are lavourfull as hell, but crew 3 limits our options a lot, and I still don't know why dinosaurs are so pushed and this ship can't even give +1/+1 to our guys. A real shame.
- Duress main is good, but I am starting to think we need something that also pressures our opponent while protecting our guys. I will try Hope of Ghirapur. It is still a T1 play, and plays well with Hostage takerif not removed, and also can give us time if we have seen our opponent's hand with Kitesail Freebooter to play around sweepers and be ready for them. Hope also takes pressure from our manabase and the need to have T1 black mana for duress, at least G1.
- Pirates are weak. They are not the most aggresive creatures in the format. They attack ok, but they defend horribly. They have good evasion, but they need more raw power. Fell flagship was there initially to power them up, but as mentioned before, it has fell short. For that, I am willing to try at least a 3-of Metallic mimic and see how it benefits our guys.
- Fatal push aside, black cheap removal sucks compared to other colours. Everything costs BB or/and is at sorcery speed.I'm still on the Trial of ambition plan, and have had mixed results. Sometimes it kills what it is supposed to, sometimes it doesn't matter. However, this deck needs more removal besides 4 push, but I can't see anything tempo-worthy. Any ideas? Right now, the deck would look like this:
Thoughts and advice are always welcomed
Edit: I am moving away from the (in)famous Scarab God because he is REALLY expensive right now, but if I had it, I would probably change the sideboard plan to include Bontu's last reckoning and 2 copies of the god.
Right, the trick with this upcoming set is to not try to force a peg in the wrong hole. A lot of people (including myself), did just that in the last super big tribal block, which was Lorwyn and Shadowmoor. I think that mixing good, strong creatures together and trying to pry some advantage off of the tribe to make the deck stronger is the best approach.
Also, I'm finding the all in hand disruption route to be really good right now in this format. Maybe it's because the removal is otherwise just lackluster, but T1 Harsh Scrutiny does a lot of work. Also, Lost Legacy has been working really well right now as well, though I think that is because if someone is running white declaring Settle the Wreckage or Fumigate as a target seems to always connect.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I've had one eye on this topic for a while now (one eye... pirate... get it? sigh), and although I've not had a chance to test, I've been considering running it out at the next FNM I can get to. I've been toying with sneaking in the Searches, and running a little more of a controlling build (my main deck is a Scarab God control).
Also, is it worth considering something like Essence Extraction as a gain life/removal tool? In the other thread there's concern that this list is too slow, needs life gain, and would then be able to support Ruin Raider.
I've had one eye on this topic for a while now (one eye... pirate... get it? sigh), and although I've not had a chance to test, I've been considering running it out at the next FNM I can get to. I've been toying with sneaking in the Searches, and running a little more of a controlling build (my main deck is a Scarab God control).
Also, is it worth considering something like Essence Extraction as a gain life/removal tool? In the other thread there's concern that this list is too slow, needs life gain, and would then be able to support Ruin Raider.
What's the ratio of Approach to Ramunap Red at your FNM? I've only managed to get the red matchup even close to 50% with the list above featuring a maindeck playset of Gifted Aetherborn and a playset of Harsh Scrutiny split between main and board. I'm very skeptical of Essence Extraction against them. The basic problem is that they can out tempo us with cheap threats and removal and then also go over the top with haymakers.
The good news is that the control matchup is very heavily in favor of the pirates. Every other match is in that 48 to 52 win percentage zone.
I think Chart a Course is better than Search for Azcanta for our purposes. You get the cards right away and can manipulate things to bin anything from your hand if you want to. Search takes a while to pay off. We usually only have that kind of time in matches we would win anyways. We also play enough creatures that Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin activations are a bit of a gamble.
UB Pirates decks stand alone in the Aggro-Control niche of Standard's metagame, and I'm certain it would be a mistake to try to do better than the other established decks in their respective niches. UB Pirates is a Jack-of-all-trades deck : not a specialist in anything, but able to do a lot of things and fight well enough on the opponent's most vulnerable axis to win most games and matchups (be Aggro vs Control, be Control vs Combo and Midrange, and be Midrange vs Aggro ; our hand disruption cards are the best way to tell us how to fight and win, and to take away opponent’s best tools.
« Blue Black Popeye Tempo »... I named the deck after that Popeye Stompy deck in Legacy, but I really don’t like the name. It sounds weird, and doesn’t catch the spirit of the deck (as described above ; Jack-of-all-trades).
What about « Blue Black Jacks »?
Or « Blue Black Tempo Jacks »?
Or just « Blue Black Pirates »?
I think I prefer #2. It sounds right, and there’s a certain rythm and rimes when you say it aloud.
I don’t want to lose anybody if I rename the thread, and I’m curious to read what you guys think of the current name and proposed deck names.
And on the subject of the Red Aggro matchup, I’ve found this comment on another thread that I would like to share with you :
I think demir decks in general have a lot of good reactive and proactive answers to the format and will do well long term. The main weakness the color pair has is against aggressive decks. The best answer to god's demir has is bounce or hostage taker, and the later is a bit slow against hazoret.
The Dimir Pirates vs Ramunap Red match is here at the 1:26 mark. Dylan reported to me that the virtual card advantage provided by Fathom Fleet Captain was key. Kind of lame when the store owner gets drafted to play, gets handed a deck that was thrown together just before the event and takes it down. But it also says a lot for the potential of the deck if we ignore the obvious small sample size issues.
UB Pirates decks stand alone in the Aggro-Control niche of Standard's metagame, and I'm certain it would be a mistake to try to do better than the other established decks in their respective niches. UB Pirates is a Jack-of-all-trades deck : not a specialist in anything, but able to do a lot of things and fight well enough on the opponent's most vulnerable axis to win most games and matchups (be Aggro vs Control, be Control vs Combo and Midrange, and be Midrange vs Aggro ; our hand disruption cards are the best way to tell us how to fight and win, and to take away opponent’s best tools.
« Blue Black Popeye Tempo »... I named the deck after that Popeye Stompy deck in Legacy, but I really don’t like the name. It sounds weird, and doesn’t catch the spirit of the deck (as described above ; Jack-of-all-trades).
What about « Blue Black Jacks »?
Or « Blue Black Tempo Jacks »?
Or just « Blue Black Pirates »?
I think I prefer #2. It sounds right, and there’s a certain rythm and rimes when you say it aloud.
I don’t want to lose anybody if I rename the thread, and I’m curious to read what you guys think of the current name and proposed deck names.
And on the subject of the Red Aggro matchup, I’ve found this comment on another thread that I would like to share with you :
I think demir decks in general have a lot of good reactive and proactive answers to the format and will do well long term. The main weakness the color pair has is against aggressive decks. The best answer to god's demir has is bounce or hostage taker, and the later is a bit slow against hazoret.
The Dimir Pirates vs Ramunap Red match is here at the 1:26 mark. Dylan reported to me that the virtual card advantage provided by Fathom Fleet Captain was key. Kind of lame when the store owner gets drafted to play, gets handed a deck that was thrown together just before the event and takes it down. But it also says a lot for the potential of the deck if we ignore the obvious small sample size issues.
I'd go with number 2 since it will age better. We're really only "pirates" because the format as of now dictates the use of a lot of them. When Dominaria comes rolling around we'll see Wizards usual "Lets hate out the last block" approach to life and we'll probably be forced to move some of the tech to something else.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I've been thinking a lot about Trial of Ambition and Cartouche of Ambition. +1/+1 Lifelink on evasive creatures (flying, menace or unblockable) that are well protected (Siren Stormtamer, Lookout's Dispersal and Siren's Ruse), plus add a -1/-1 counter and bounce Trial for just 2B seems a good value. I'm just not sure if there's room enough in the deck for these cards. Maybe I'll have to give it a try.
Fathom Fleet Captain is definitely not a 4 of in the deck. Same goes for Daring Saboteur. Both are great manasinks, and you definitely want high chances of drawing one, but you never want two at the same time on the battlefield. I only play 3 of each in the main deck, and I think it is the right number. FYI, I know that Saboteur looks underwhelming in theory, but she's not in reality. Same goes for Fell Flagship. I literally had to force myself to even test these csrds, but Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa had both in his list so I had to give it a try to understand why a Pro Player thought they should make the cut. I was quite satisfied with these cards, and you can see my updated deck list above.
But if you don't play Hostage Taker or The Scarab God, your strategy is really different than mine. They're not overly priced at 4-5 CMC, even if you wait a turn or two to play them with some protection. You just have to not be too hasty, and play cautious. I've ordered my cards, and they're in the mail. The players at my LGS are very competitive grinders, and I wanted a deck that could beat them all. I don't know if I managed to brew a list that can do so, but it feels like it, and Taker + God are part of the winning strategy.
Like I said in another post (above), I see UB Pirates as a Jack-of-all-trades deck. Not the best deck at anything, but able to fight well enough on each axis (Aggro, Control, Midrange) to win almost all matchups once you've determined the opponent's vulnerability. The deck I’ve brewed feels like a true rogue :
Sneak in by the window to gather intelligence and sabotage opponent's plans (Kitesail Freebooter, Harsh Scrutiny, Duress).
Dodges like an acrobat, and opponent unable to catch us (Siren Stormtamer, Lookout's Dispersal, Siren's Ruse).
A good swashbuckler, that will pass his opponent's guards and defenses, hurt him with many small cuts that will bleed him to death (weenies with Flying, Menace, Unblockable).
Never out of ideas and ressources, a master at improvisation (Daring Saboteur and Fathom Fleet Captain).
A true thief, a backstabber, that steals away opponent's best weapons and turn them against him (Hostage Taker and The Scarab God).
To comment on the "4 cmc seems too expensive" observation. This is coming down to what core strategy is being employed with the deck. It's not about pirates, it's about understanding archetypes and what they are supposed to be trying to do.
Tempo is a deck archetype that literally hangs out near the dead center of the Aggro vs Control, Strong card vs Strong Combo access. It's not trying to just rush in and do it's own thing usually like red rush does or Boros aggro and it is not trying to play some elaborate combo contraption like chaining a bunch of elves together into a Craterhoof behemoth. The entire idea of tempo is to put your opponent behind by timing often under powered, temporary effects like Unsummon, Watertrap Weaver, Aether Meltdown, Negate, etc to make the opponent waste a card or a turn.
Decks that want to out value other decks always try to maximize the use of their mana on their own turns to play the biggest, most powerful threat possible on curve. The objective of "pirate tempo" is to stop that from happening by throwing a wrench at them. If someone wants to play Hazoret the Fervent on turn 4 and swing in, they have to get past an Unsummon, Essence Scatter, or Galestrike. If they want to bring in a Scarab God or try to Fumigate, they should have to get past a Negate, Spell Pierce, or Vraska's Contempt. What makes this different from control is that we are still playing threats in the early game like Kitesail Freebooter, so understanding how to spend mana and use effective timing is insanely important.
If we start playing cards that cost a lot of mana, than we are giving up the ability to tempo the opponent since there aren't a lot of good options to do so with only one mana open turn 5 or 6. Also, this is one of those things I hate about tribal: Sometimes the whole happy fantasy of playing "Pirates" takes precedence over actually playing the deck archetype. So you end up with tons of decks that don't really know what they are supposed to be doing.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Not necessarily. The point is that whatever gets played at those points in the game has to be worth giving up the ability to interact effectively. In the case of The Scarab God and Hostage Taker, those cards are extremely powerful and can be worth it. What I'm basically saying is that those are also not the only option or always the correct option. I actually prefer Dreamcaller Siren in some match ups because if I can end the game by tapping two defenders down and swing in, that is better than stealing one defender with hostage taker and hoping that the following turn I can end the game somehow by playing that creature. That also assumes I can defend the hostage taker long enough to do something in that situation.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
In 21 games, I've never been out of something to do with my lands : Daring Saboteur, Fathom Fleet Captain and The Scarab God all provide pseudo-card advantage and are great mana sinks ; and Hostage Taker is pure card advantage. Ifnir Deadlandsis not required for our deck : it's not a Swamp (to fix Drowned Catacomb), it costs life to produce B (and we need BB in the matchups where life will be in short supply), and we just don't need another mana sink (and one so expansive and with embedded card disadvantage).
I've traded the 2 Chart the Course in the main deck for 2 Siren's Ruse. I still have to test out if this is a good move, but I'm always disappointed spending Lookout's Dispersal on a removal when I see a better target next turn. Siren's Ruse can be used exclusively to deal with removals, save a Pirate from a bad block, and reset Hostage Taker at instant speed (and stealing Gideon!). Drawing a card on top of that is amazing. Siren's Ruse is a better fit for us in the axis where we're fighting (Aggro-Control).
SIDEBOARD PLAN :
vs Control (UWx Approach) : -3 Fatal Push, -2 Walk the Plank, -4 Hostage Taker ; +3 Duress, +2 Lost Legacy, +2 Siren's Ruse, +2 Spell Pierce.
vs Aggro (Rx Ramunap) : -2 Fell Flagship, -2 Hostage Taker, -1 Duress ; +2 Harsh Scrutiny, +1 Fatal Push, +2 Walk the Plank.
vs Midrange (BUGx Energy) : -2 Siren's Ruse, -1 Duress, -2 Kitesail Freebooter, -2 Fell Flagship ; +2 Harsh Scrutiny, +1 Fatal Push, +2 Walk the Plank, +2 Lost Legacy (but swap 1 Walk the Plank for 1 Trial of Ambition if opponent plays Bristling Hydra or Carnage Tyrant).
vs Combo (Tokens, Gift or Pummeler) : Lost Legacy, Spell Pierce and Duress should be good, and some others, but it really depends on the specific Combo plan.
EDIT - Primer above has been updated (deck list, SB plan, some descriptions).
my deck is very similar. differences are -1 god -1 saboteur + 2 ruin raiders and unsummon instead of siren's ruse.
now, i see how siren's ruse is better than usummon beacuse of the draw, but usummon being only 1 mana and being able to hit my opponent's creatures make it better in my opinion.
in the sideboard i have doomfall instead of trial as i can use it also for discarding and it exile so can get rid of scarab god.
I also thought about running trial/cartouche and yes, cartouche giving boost, lifelink and pseudo-removal is good...BUT...for 3 mana doesn't feel great, and the whole bouncing trial thing seems cute at best.
Private Mod Note
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Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
Every time I've tried making the "bouncing Trial" thing work, it was underwhelming unless it involved using cartouche of Solidarity, Cartouche of Knowledge, and Cartouche of Zeal. That was still in sealed and not constructed. I think if the trials had flash it would be better.
Also, to elaborate on why hostage taker isn't always the best card to play at 4 cost:
If I use hostage taker to steal a permanent, I should be able to defend it with one mana open. If I'm playing an opponent with card advantage I'm going to potentially need to defend the card twice, which may not be possible. Case in point, if the opponent is playing control. They could try something when we play hostage taker that forces us to use siren storm tamer on our turn, use up our mana, and on their turn cast a glimmer of genius and then dispose of hostage taker if they want to.
Hostage taker works well against other mid range decks that won't have a lot of card advantage turn 5. Maybe they hold up a lightning strike or sweltering sun's, but that is something that can be handled.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The deck he runs is closer to midrange than to tempo, with a total of 11 +4 cmc cards and 11 lands that enter the battlefield on T1 (of 24 total).
Any thought of those of you with some hours of testing?
SaffronOlive's list is what I decided on playing this season and feel that's where pirate decks should be for now. Use the best pirates available and have backup with Scarab God to accrue value in the late game. As soon as I get the rest of my cards this week I plan on testing the crap out of his version of pirate midrange with more copies of Evolving Wilds to better utilize Fatal Push.
SaffronOlive's deck is amazing. He managed to put into words why Gifted Aetherborn and Champion of Wits are so good for this deck, and why it was ok to run less Pirates. It all comes down to getting to The Scarab God (survive with Aetherborn, find it with Champion), and offering him good targets in the graveyard (and our Pirates are amazing as 4/4 Zombies : Siren Stormtamer, Kitesail Freebooter and Hostage Taker... they either have very good ETB abilities, protect us and our creatures, or have evasion).
I'll have to order copy #3 of the God, and maybe Liliana... I think this deck can go Tier 1.
It's no longer very Tempo, and more Midrange. I'll write another PRIMER for THE PIRATE GOD.
Sapphron Olive had to explain why gifted aetherborn and champion of whits are good? In all honesty, I know the deck will be good when there are no cards with raid in the deck. I like raid as a mechanic in aggro lists like the old Mardu from khans block, but it's a very high variance mechanic.
The mechanic only works if it's possible to swing in with a creature, and that depends on who is ahead or at the advantage with the current board state. If the other player has two 3/3 creatures and we got three 2/2 on the field with raid and two more creatures in hand, do we just swing in to trigger their raid trigger and sacrifice the opportunity to hold off and potentially swing in for more damage the next turn?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Sapphron Olive had to explain why gifted aetherborn and champion of whits are good? In all honesty, I know the deck will be good when there are no cards with raid in the deck. I like raid as a mechanic in aggro lists like the old Mardu from khans block, but it's a very high variance mechanic.
The mechanic only works if it's possible to swing in with a creature, and that depends on who is ahead or at the advantage with the current board state. If the other player has two 3/3 creatures and we got three 2/2 on the field with raid and two more creatures in hand, do we just swing in to trigger their raid trigger and sacrifice the opportunity to hold off and potentially swing in for more damage the next turn?
There were no creatures with Raid in my decklist, so we already agree on that. But yes, someone had to explain it to me why Gifted Aetherborn and Champion of Wits were better than Daring Saboteur, Fathom Fleet Captain and Fell Flagship. @jacobk tried to explain that early in this thread, but I failed to understand his reasons. I was trying to build a tribal deck, and really wanted to maximize synergy.
Tribal decks usually are at their best when they can find answers in their own tribe (ex. : Dissolution Sliver). I thought card advantage could be achieved with Saboteur, Captain and Flagship. But going outside the tribe was the best solution (Champion of Wits + Eternalized Champion of Wits), and this opened up room for Gifted Aetherborn. It kills everything it blocks and gains you life, so it's good to get you to the long game where The Scarab God will shine (with more reliability, thanks to copy #3).
For those interested in the more Midrange version of the deck (The Pirate God), let's continue the discussion in this new thread.
The deck he runs is closer to midrange than to tempo, with a total of 11 +4 cmc cards and 11 lands that enter the battlefield on T1 (of 24 total).
Any thought of those of you with some hours of testing?
i don't really understand the inclusion of champion of wits and liliana...
I just wanted to go back on an issue that was rised the other day: do we really need to play "pirates"? well i thought about it, and my conclusion is yes.
if you wanted to play UB tempo, without being too tied to the pirates theme, you still would be playing Siren Stormtamer, kitesail freeboter, hostage taker and possibly ruin raider. now that you are already playing all these pirates, it only make sense to play lookout's dispersal, fathom fleet captain and possibly fell flagship. so in cocnlusion for me the pirate tribe is not forced, is a natural consequence of playing UB tempo.
the card that I haven't played yet and I want to test is dreamcaller siren
Private Mod Note
():
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Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
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6 Island
6 Swamp
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Fetid Pools
4 Unclaimed Territory
Creatures (20)
4 Siren Stormtamer
4 Kitesail Freebooter
3 Fathom Fleet Captain
3 Daring Saboteur
4 Hostage Taker
2 The Scarab God
3 Fatal Push
2 Harsh Scrutiny
1 Duress
2 Walk the Plank
2 Siren's Ruse
2 Fell Flagship
4 Lookout's Dispersal
2 Harsh Scrutiny
1 Fatal Push
2 Walk the Plank
3 Duress
2 Lost Legacy
2 Siren's Ruse
2 Spell Pierce
1 Trial of Ambition
In 21 games, I've never been out of something to do with my lands : Daring Saboteur, Fathom Fleet Captain and The Scarab God all provide pseudo-card advantage and are great mana sinks ; and Hostage Taker is pure card advantage. Ifnir Deadlands is not required for our deck : it's not a Swamp (to fix Drowned Catacomb), it costs life to produce B (and we need BB in the matchups where life will be in short supply), and we just don't need another mana sink (and one so expansive and with embedded card disadvantage).
I've traded the 2 Chart the Course in the main deck for 2 Siren's Ruse. I still have to test out if this is a good move, but I'm always disappointed spending Lookout's Dispersal on a removal when I see a better target next turn. Siren's Ruse can be used exclusively to deal with removals, save a Pirate from a bad block, and reset Hostage Taker at instant speed (and stealing Gideon!). Drawing a card on top of that is amazing. Siren's Ruse is a better fit for us in the axis where we're fighting (Aggro-Control).
SIDEBOARD PLAN :
EDIT - Primer above has been updated (deck list, SB plan, some descriptions).
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Mimic would force us in a role, and that is bad, IMHO (it's actually the same reasonning than Storm Fleet Aerialist).
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
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- If Ruin raideris going to be a 3-4 of (which has worked fine for me), there needs to be a life-gain source maindeck. Otherwise, we are found in situations in which although we have control of the board AND card advantage, we cannot attack/draw because raider just kills us. I am thinking about 2x Athersphere harvester mainand removing the Fell flagships alltogether. The thing is that the ships are lavourfull as hell, but crew 3 limits our options a lot, and I still don't know why dinosaurs are so pushed and this ship can't even give +1/+1 to our guys. A real shame.
- Duress main is good, but I am starting to think we need something that also pressures our opponent while protecting our guys. I will try Hope of Ghirapur. It is still a T1 play, and plays well with Hostage takerif not removed, and also can give us time if we have seen our opponent's hand with Kitesail Freebooter to play around sweepers and be ready for them. Hope also takes pressure from our manabase and the need to have T1 black mana for duress, at least G1.
- Pirates are weak. They are not the most aggresive creatures in the format. They attack ok, but they defend horribly. They have good evasion, but they need more raw power. Fell flagship was there initially to power them up, but as mentioned before, it has fell short. For that, I am willing to try at least a 3-of Metallic mimic and see how it benefits our guys.
- Fatal push aside, black cheap removal sucks compared to other colours. Everything costs BB or/and is at sorcery speed.I'm still on the Trial of ambition plan, and have had mixed results. Sometimes it kills what it is supposed to, sometimes it doesn't matter. However, this deck needs more removal besides 4 push, but I can't see anything tempo-worthy. Any ideas? Right now, the deck would look like this:
4x Drowned Catacomb
1x Evolving wilds (help trigger revolt)
9x Swamp
9x Island
Creatures
4x Siren stormtamer
2x Hope of Ghirapur
4x Fathom Fleet Captain
4x Kitesail Freebooter
3x Ruin raider
3x Hostage taker
1x Dreamcaller siren
4x Fatal push
4x Lookout's dispersal
1x Unsummon
1x Consign // Oblivion
2x Aethersphere harvester
1x Trial of ambition
2x Spell pierce
3x Trial of ambition
3x Duress
2x Dispossess
2x Sentinel totem
1x Cartouche of ambition
1x Vraska's contempt
1x Kefnet's last word
Thoughts and advice are always welcomed
Edit: I am moving away from the (in)famous Scarab God because he is REALLY expensive right now, but if I had it, I would probably change the sideboard plan to include Bontu's last reckoning and 2 copies of the god.
Also, I'm finding the all in hand disruption route to be really good right now in this format. Maybe it's because the removal is otherwise just lackluster, but T1 Harsh Scrutiny does a lot of work. Also, Lost Legacy has been working really well right now as well, though I think that is because if someone is running white declaring Settle the Wreckage or Fumigate as a target seems to always connect.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Also, is it worth considering something like Essence Extraction as a gain life/removal tool? In the other thread there's concern that this list is too slow, needs life gain, and would then be able to support Ruin Raider.
What's the ratio of Approach to Ramunap Red at your FNM? I've only managed to get the red matchup even close to 50% with the list above featuring a maindeck playset of Gifted Aetherborn and a playset of Harsh Scrutiny split between main and board. I'm very skeptical of Essence Extraction against them. The basic problem is that they can out tempo us with cheap threats and removal and then also go over the top with haymakers.
The good news is that the control matchup is very heavily in favor of the pirates. Every other match is in that 48 to 52 win percentage zone.
I think Chart a Course is better than Search for Azcanta for our purposes. You get the cards right away and can manipulate things to bin anything from your hand if you want to. Search takes a while to pay off. We usually only have that kind of time in matches we would win anyways. We also play enough creatures that Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin activations are a bit of a gamble.
« Blue Black Popeye Tempo »... I named the deck after that Popeye Stompy deck in Legacy, but I really don’t like the name. It sounds weird, and doesn’t catch the spirit of the deck (as described above ; Jack-of-all-trades).
I don’t want to lose anybody if I rename the thread, and I’m curious to read what you guys think of the current name and proposed deck names.
And on the subject of the Red Aggro matchup, I’ve found this comment on another thread that I would like to share with you :
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
I'd go with number 2 since it will age better. We're really only "pirates" because the format as of now dictates the use of a lot of them. When Dominaria comes rolling around we'll see Wizards usual "Lets hate out the last block" approach to life and we'll probably be forced to move some of the tech to something else.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
2-3x Cartouche of Ambition (its -1/-1 and +1/+1, with lifelink is relevant!)
I feel Hostage Taker is a pipedream for this deck... I have been happier without them. (or anything above 3 CMC)
Ditto to Fathom Fleet Captain .. too much mana for a x4 of for me..
Also, Deadeye Tracker, Ifnir Deadlands and Storm Fleet Aerialist have all performed very well for me in alot of games.
Hope this helps!
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
I've been thinking a lot about Trial of Ambition and Cartouche of Ambition. +1/+1 Lifelink on evasive creatures (flying, menace or unblockable) that are well protected (Siren Stormtamer, Lookout's Dispersal and Siren's Ruse), plus add a -1/-1 counter and bounce Trial for just 2B seems a good value. I'm just not sure if there's room enough in the deck for these cards. Maybe I'll have to give it a try.
Fathom Fleet Captain is definitely not a 4 of in the deck. Same goes for Daring Saboteur. Both are great manasinks, and you definitely want high chances of drawing one, but you never want two at the same time on the battlefield. I only play 3 of each in the main deck, and I think it is the right number. FYI, I know that Saboteur looks underwhelming in theory, but she's not in reality. Same goes for Fell Flagship. I literally had to force myself to even test these csrds, but Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa had both in his list so I had to give it a try to understand why a Pro Player thought they should make the cut. I was quite satisfied with these cards, and you can see my updated deck list above.
But if you don't play Hostage Taker or The Scarab God, your strategy is really different than mine. They're not overly priced at 4-5 CMC, even if you wait a turn or two to play them with some protection. You just have to not be too hasty, and play cautious. I've ordered my cards, and they're in the mail. The players at my LGS are very competitive grinders, and I wanted a deck that could beat them all. I don't know if I managed to brew a list that can do so, but it feels like it, and Taker + God are part of the winning strategy.
Like I said in another post (above), I see UB Pirates as a Jack-of-all-trades deck. Not the best deck at anything, but able to fight well enough on each axis (Aggro, Control, Midrange) to win almost all matchups once you've determined the opponent's vulnerability. The deck I’ve brewed feels like a true rogue :
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
Tempo is a deck archetype that literally hangs out near the dead center of the Aggro vs Control, Strong card vs Strong Combo access. It's not trying to just rush in and do it's own thing usually like red rush does or Boros aggro and it is not trying to play some elaborate combo contraption like chaining a bunch of elves together into a Craterhoof behemoth. The entire idea of tempo is to put your opponent behind by timing often under powered, temporary effects like Unsummon, Watertrap Weaver, Aether Meltdown, Negate, etc to make the opponent waste a card or a turn.
Decks that want to out value other decks always try to maximize the use of their mana on their own turns to play the biggest, most powerful threat possible on curve. The objective of "pirate tempo" is to stop that from happening by throwing a wrench at them. If someone wants to play Hazoret the Fervent on turn 4 and swing in, they have to get past an Unsummon, Essence Scatter, or Galestrike. If they want to bring in a Scarab God or try to Fumigate, they should have to get past a Negate, Spell Pierce, or Vraska's Contempt. What makes this different from control is that we are still playing threats in the early game like Kitesail Freebooter, so understanding how to spend mana and use effective timing is insanely important.
If we start playing cards that cost a lot of mana, than we are giving up the ability to tempo the opponent since there aren't a lot of good options to do so with only one mana open turn 5 or 6. Also, this is one of those things I hate about tribal: Sometimes the whole happy fantasy of playing "Pirates" takes precedence over actually playing the deck archetype. So you end up with tons of decks that don't really know what they are supposed to be doing.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
my deck is very similar. differences are -1 god -1 saboteur + 2 ruin raiders and unsummon instead of siren's ruse.
now, i see how siren's ruse is better than usummon beacuse of the draw, but usummon being only 1 mana and being able to hit my opponent's creatures make it better in my opinion.
in the sideboard i have doomfall instead of trial as i can use it also for discarding and it exile so can get rid of scarab god.
I also thought about running trial/cartouche and yes, cartouche giving boost, lifelink and pseudo-removal is good...BUT...for 3 mana doesn't feel great, and the whole bouncing trial thing seems cute at best.
Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons
ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
Also, to elaborate on why hostage taker isn't always the best card to play at 4 cost:
If I use hostage taker to steal a permanent, I should be able to defend it with one mana open. If I'm playing an opponent with card advantage I'm going to potentially need to defend the card twice, which may not be possible. Case in point, if the opponent is playing control. They could try something when we play hostage taker that forces us to use siren storm tamer on our turn, use up our mana, and on their turn cast a glimmer of genius and then dispose of hostage taker if they want to.
Hostage taker works well against other mid range decks that won't have a lot of card advantage turn 5. Maybe they hold up a lightning strike or sweltering sun's, but that is something that can be handled.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
But I agree with you : HT is better on T5 or T6, when you can defend her.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/much-abrew-the-pirate-god-standard
The deck he runs is closer to midrange than to tempo, with a total of 11 +4 cmc cards and 11 lands that enter the battlefield on T1 (of 24 total).
Any thought of those of you with some hours of testing?
I'll have to order copy #3 of the God, and maybe Liliana... I think this deck can go Tier 1.
It's no longer very Tempo, and more Midrange. I'll write another PRIMER for THE PIRATE GOD.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
The mechanic only works if it's possible to swing in with a creature, and that depends on who is ahead or at the advantage with the current board state. If the other player has two 3/3 creatures and we got three 2/2 on the field with raid and two more creatures in hand, do we just swing in to trigger their raid trigger and sacrifice the opportunity to hold off and potentially swing in for more damage the next turn?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
There were no creatures with Raid in my decklist, so we already agree on that. But yes, someone had to explain it to me why Gifted Aetherborn and Champion of Wits were better than Daring Saboteur, Fathom Fleet Captain and Fell Flagship. @jacobk tried to explain that early in this thread, but I failed to understand his reasons. I was trying to build a tribal deck, and really wanted to maximize synergy.
Tribal decks usually are at their best when they can find answers in their own tribe (ex. : Dissolution Sliver). I thought card advantage could be achieved with Saboteur, Captain and Flagship. But going outside the tribe was the best solution (Champion of Wits + Eternalized Champion of Wits), and this opened up room for Gifted Aetherborn. It kills everything it blocks and gains you life, so it's good to get you to the long game where The Scarab God will shine (with more reliability, thanks to copy #3).
For those interested in the more Midrange version of the deck (The Pirate God), let's continue the discussion in this new thread.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
i don't really understand the inclusion of champion of wits and liliana...
I just wanted to go back on an issue that was rised the other day: do we really need to play "pirates"? well i thought about it, and my conclusion is yes.
if you wanted to play UB tempo, without being too tied to the pirates theme, you still would be playing Siren Stormtamer, kitesail freeboter, hostage taker and possibly ruin raider. now that you are already playing all these pirates, it only make sense to play lookout's dispersal, fathom fleet captain and possibly fell flagship. so in cocnlusion for me the pirate tribe is not forced, is a natural consequence of playing UB tempo.
the card that I haven't played yet and I want to test is dreamcaller siren
Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons
ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm