Don't sleep on green! It hits those artifacts/enchantments and also provides superior mana fixing. Turning delirium on requires a few deck building concessions, but Ishkanah is also very good against Mardu which tends to be a hard matchup for control.
We're already seeing U/R with full sets of Trackers in the sideboard. Green has a lot to offer, even if it's not a traditional control color.
Since U/B Control doesn't have that many answers against artifacts and enchantments, I was thinking of building a Improvise deck since it helps you save up your mana for casting other spells. It also contains Battle at the Bridge for gaining life since U/B doesn't have that many life gaining spells other than Essence Extraction. Also with Spire of Industry, Aether Hub and Inventors' fair available, you can splash in a third color very easily without worrying about the mana curve. Do you think that Esper Improvise or Grixis Improvise are really good options against aggro decks?
Commit // Memory is better imo. Plus, I don't want to drop a Torrential Gearhulk to force my opponent to discard two cards. That seems especially weak for that stage of the game when I could just reload my hand.
Also, To the Slaugher is really the only way UB can get at indestructible or hexproof things prior to Hour of Devastation, but you have to get the problem creature to be the only creature left. I believe there's a 4-CMC exile effect in Hour of Devastation so that helps, but hexproof, artifacts and enchantments will always be a problem for UB. I think Bontu's Last Reckoning will be good, but I have a strong feeling many will misplay this card. It's very risky in the face of vehicles and planeswalkers.
I agree, I think Bontu's Last Reckoning will be solid as long as you can hold up a Push or Grasp through your exerted turn. Black really needs a hard sweeper, I'd gladly play a 6cmc Damnation in the sideboard so it's hard to imagine Reckoning not making the cut. It's the only way to catch up against some of the bigger midrange decks.
To the Slaughter with Delirium enabled is the truth! Hitting Chandra and Hydra at once for 3cmc is so nasty (and cleaning up Gideon with one card is nice too). I'm playing U/B/G so I run two along with a couple Grapples and Ballistas, but I think you could get Delirium turned on via Pull from Tomorrow in pure U/B. In fact it would be a good incentive to just run full sets of Gearhulks and Pulls, since you can filter away excess Gearhulks early and it counts for two card types in the graveyard.
Deadlock Trap seems a good card in a U/B deck since it helps you tap their Plainswalkers and creatures and prevent them from triggering their ability. Also Pacification Array is good for tapping artifacts and creatures for more board control. With Glimmer of Genius granting you energy counters you can utilize them to triggerDeadlock Trap ability very easily.
How is everyone's testing coming along? I've had a lot of life stuff happening (moving countries, etc) so haven't had time to do much other than check in here every few days.
It is definitely the Wild West right now. For a couple months, I've been playing UB both online and in paper and up to now it's actually been quite solid. Beats up pretty good against any of these aggressive energy-based decks (Temur and GB, predominantly) and has great tools for any mirror you come across. That being said, people are trying all kinds of stuff right now. Just tonight I've played against GW Cats (had a surprisingly resilient long game, though I got the match in the end), GR Ramp (World Breakers, Ulamog, 6cmc Chandra), Jund -1/-1 counters (seems like the weakest of the decks I played against), UW Control, UW Monument, etc, etc, etc.
I think it's probably going to be like this for a couple weeks until we have enough information and a few tournaments down to start building out a framework for the format. For the record, I've been playing mostly UB tonight, though I have built a Grixis deck with all the stuff you might expect rotating in and out in various numbers (Supreme Will, Hour of Devastation, Nicol Bolas, Abrade, Magma Spray, Unlicensed Disintegration, etc. The Grixis deck feels okay, but it's going to need a lot of work to be a consistent performer.
For the time being, I think I'm going to stick with UB and try out some new additions. Personally, I think Dreamstealer and Champion of Wits are very interesting cards for the mirror and The Scarab God might be the secondary win-con UB-based control decks were looking for. I'm also experimenting with Hour of Glory, Consign to Oblivion, and Bontu's Last Reckoning, to mixed results. Hard to really get a grasp on what's going to be good enough to make the cut right now.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Post Ravnica Allegiance Type 2 - WUB Control
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
I would run Scarab Feast over Crook, myself. Potentially spending mana every turn is not a small investment, particularly against a deck like zombies, where you need to be influencing the board (often taking much of your mana to do so). Scarab Feast requires only a single mana investment and cycles if it isn't relevant.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Post Ravnica Allegiance Type 2 - WUB Control
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Thoughts on this? I still haven't got any of the cards from the new set, and haven't got to test anything yet, but this is where I want thinking of starting. I'm expecting some PW heavy lists to start with, hence three mainboard Nevers. Flaying Tendrils is there as another couple of sweepers for aggro, and Torment is an answer for midrange - it almost ends up as another sweeper where X is the number of non-land cards you haven't killed plus cards in their hand There's a chance that I should put back in a couple of Anticipates for early draw smoothing, but figured that the Supreme Wills could do double duty.
EDIT: made some changes to the list already - Anticipates out, Nevers in, plus a couple of SB tweaks.
EDIT: Doomfall in the main for Hour of Glory, which moves to the side for the Torments of Hailfire.
Have you guys tested Liliana Death's Majesty in a U/B control deck? I have been testing her and I find her to be a perfect Planeswalker for a control deck. It gives you zombie tokens plus you can revive your Torrential Gearhulk from the graveyard to trigger it's ability for extra defensive plays. I find this combo to be very powerful after testing her out.
@JonInWherever I don't like hour of glory maindeck. We have no data about the number of gods that will be played yet. I also don't like your pull from tomorrow/glimmer numbers with 3 gearhulk. You should at the very least reverse those I think. Imo I would do 4 glimmer 1 pull.
Also, I understand the gods are hard to get rid of but what is it doing in your deck? You won't have a lot of zombies and you won't have anything to exile. So I think you should start with 4 GH it is a tried and true value in a new meta and 1 god.
The week previously, I took a similar deck except I replaced the planeswalkers with Metallurgic Summonings. I've beat every deck I have faced so far, except for 5 colour New Perspectives, but it was the first time facing it so I was still learning it.
Decks I faced (that I can remember) were GW Humans, Thermo-Alchemist, UR Control, New Perspectives and UR Zombie Emerge.
I am thinking of removing The Scarab God, it felt like more of a win-more card. I did not play it at all last night, even though I had it in hand sometimes. It might pay off more if you build your deck around it, I guess.
I haven't had a chance to play with Bontu's Last Reckoning yet, but I can't remember a scenario where I might have needed it in the past two weeks. That can change.
@JonInWherever I don't like hour of glory maindeck. We have no data about the number of gods that will be played yet. I also don't like your pull from tomorrow/glimmer numbers with 3 gearhulk. You should at the very least reverse those I think. Imo I would do 4 glimmer 1 pull.
Also, I understand the gods are hard to get rid of but what is it doing in your deck? You won't have a lot of zombies and you won't have anything to exile. So I think you should start with 4 GH it is a tried and true value in a new meta and 1 god.
Everything else is pretty good I think.
I agree with you about Hour of Glory, in that it's an unknown. I was hesitant for that as well, but I know there were several God based decks at my local store. It could very well go sideboard, and have 4 Glimmer/3 Pull or more removal (amybe 3/3 and another Murder). I'm not sure about the ratio of draw spells either. Pull is amazing, and while it's not a viable Gearhulk target, Gearhulk is more likely to be flashing in counters or kill spells, in my experience.
As for the God, I have to disagree. I don't actually see Gearhulk as a main win-condition. This logic is a holdover from my Summonings deck, which came from the CFB article on it. It basically says that Gearhulk should be used as a way to bridge the gap to the late game, and due to the fact that it will eat an otherwise useless removal spell, shouldn't be a main win-con. 3 hulks seemed to be the number settled on by most decks later on in the previous Standard. 4 means there's a high chance of getting an opening hand with two, and that really seems more like a mulligan than a useful hand. So, the God. I don't need creatures in my deck to make it work. The text says "Exile target creature card from A graveyard", not just your own. In much the same way that Ashiok uses the opponents deck against them, so does The Scarab God. End of turn, spare mana? Well, I have a full grip, so make a couple of 4/4s. Next turn, same thing, while fixing my draw to kill more of your stuff and give more 4/4/ fodder. The only time it wouldn't be effective is in the control mirror, at which point you have Kalitas, Sphinx, potentially Torment of Hailfire as win-cons, and Gearhulks then become more valuable. Arguably Scarab God stays as a damage win-con, rather than the drain life text mattering.
So, another change to my list on the previous page - I moved the Hour of Glory to the side, and decide to see what a pair of Doomfall in the main would do.
As a slight aside (and maybe not even related to this thread, technically) - has anyone thought of running a UB shell and splashing ~8 red sources just to include Bolas? BBD had a list up that adapts UR control to splash 8 black sources, so it could be fairly easy to do...
So, another change to my list on the previous page - I moved the Hour of Glory to the side, and decide to see what a pair of Doomfall in the main would do.
As a slight aside (and maybe not even related to this thread, technically) - has anyone thought of running a UB shell and splashing ~8 red sources just to include Bolas? BBD had a list up that adapts UR control to splash 8 black sources, so it could be fairly easy to do...
A lot of people have been running that control list online. I think Bolas is a trap. The real power that deck added was Hour of Devastation. I think Chandra, Flamecaller would be better in the slot they're trying to jam Bolas into.
One list made it to Top 32 of the SCG this weekend. A few things to note:
- Only 25 land. I'm guessing that the early cycling helps find the drops? Also, 19 blue sources seems a lot (90% for T3 UU for Disallow, I think), with only 18 black being a little tight for needing BB for T2 Grasp or T3 Murder.
- Up to four main deck Gearhulks, using them as the main win-con along with Lili
- No use of Supreme Will, preferring the lower cost of Censor
- Hieroglyphic Illumination preferred over Glimmer, I assume for the cycling
- Only two Grasp, evidently preferring to counter them in the first place
- Nine main deck counters
- Vizier and Overwhelming Denial in the side...
New to the forum, so hi, this list is my first take on UB Control. MB is for a meta heavy with B Zombies and UW Monumennt. Kalitas and Yaheenis Expertise seem excellent in both. With some "unconditional" removal in consign and the edict in doomfall plus their discard other halves add to the versatility that we play Supreme Will for. Torment of Scarabs along with our Sphinx are for control mirrors. while the rest of the board is meant to allow us to zero in to a more correct number and quality of removal/counter in games 2 or 3. I haven't missed Pull and also cut Commit because I rarely wanted to give my opponent a fresh 7 with its better half. Is a Scarab God in the sb something worth considering? Mostly playing at instant speed the goal is to be making very strong plays when tapping on our turn. Is Pull too good not to play? Is Torment black's fevered visions? Is our God the almighty even with out a creature heavy build? I obviously think there is something strong in this archetype and that with refining can be a major player in this brave new standard.
A few things to note:
- Only 25 land. I'm guessing that the early cycling helps find the drops?
- Hieroglyphic Illumination preferred over Glimmer, I assume for the cycling
Yes, your right, some lists are really low on lands because of those early cycling cards.
Even Censor can be used as cantrip sometimes if really necessary.
Sometimes you can also remove another land if "on the draw" (it's quite risky) or you can leave it inside the deck and become less aggressive with cycling
A cantrip is a card that replaces itself while doing something. A good example is Exclude or Dismiss. Censor just gives you a choice. Otherwise, cycling would make all cards cantrips, which is not true.
Supreme Will is amazing though. I don't understand any control deck that isn't playing it. It's never a dead card.
Ran a list that at first glance seemed to be a bit of a potential train wreck last night. My original plan was to use The Scarab God as the win-con, stealing opponents' creatures from their graveyard. However, of all my pre-orders, they are the only ones that haven't arrived yet (well, Abrade, but that's for a different deck!). So, I decided to try something a little off the wall... About 10 days ago, Shaheen Soorani wrote an article that had a "Grixis" control - it was the UR shell, and the only black cards were one Dark Intimations and one Nicol Bolas. Only black mana sources were four Aether Hub. So, I tweaked my UB list a little, went up to 4 Aether Hub, and ran two Bolas.
Oh my god, it was insane. I played 3 rounds last night, went 3-1 (got a bye as well) for a Top 4 finish from 13 people. I was able to cast Bolas every round, and usually I waited until the turn I wanted to play him before playing the Aether Hub, at least for Game 1 so no one saw him coming. I pulled his ult twice, and decimated decks. Now I'm half tempted to keep on with this list, and not put the Scarab Gods in!
We're already seeing U/R with full sets of Trackers in the sideboard. Green has a lot to offer, even if it's not a traditional control color.
Esper Control
Commit // Memory is better imo. Plus, I don't want to drop a Torrential Gearhulk to force my opponent to discard two cards. That seems especially weak for that stage of the game when I could just reload my hand.
Also, To the Slaugher is really the only way UB can get at indestructible or hexproof things prior to Hour of Devastation, but you have to get the problem creature to be the only creature left. I believe there's a 4-CMC exile effect in Hour of Devastation so that helps, but hexproof, artifacts and enchantments will always be a problem for UB. I think Bontu's Last Reckoning will be good, but I have a strong feeling many will misplay this card. It's very risky in the face of vehicles and planeswalkers.
To the Slaughter with Delirium enabled is the truth! Hitting Chandra and Hydra at once for 3cmc is so nasty (and cleaning up Gideon with one card is nice too). I'm playing U/B/G so I run two along with a couple Grapples and Ballistas, but I think you could get Delirium turned on via Pull from Tomorrow in pure U/B. In fact it would be a good incentive to just run full sets of Gearhulks and Pulls, since you can filter away excess Gearhulks early and it counts for two card types in the graveyard.
Esper Control
Here is a video of U/W Control vs U/B Control.
https://youtu.be/DhdW25ujKJI
I think it's probably going to be like this for a couple weeks until we have enough information and a few tournaments down to start building out a framework for the format. For the record, I've been playing mostly UB tonight, though I have built a Grixis deck with all the stuff you might expect rotating in and out in various numbers (Supreme Will, Hour of Devastation, Nicol Bolas, Abrade, Magma Spray, Unlicensed Disintegration, etc. The Grixis deck feels okay, but it's going to need a lot of work to be a consistent performer.
For the time being, I think I'm going to stick with UB and try out some new additions. Personally, I think Dreamstealer and Champion of Wits are very interesting cards for the mirror and The Scarab God might be the secondary win-con UB-based control decks were looking for. I'm also experimenting with Hour of Glory, Consign to Oblivion, and Bontu's Last Reckoning, to mixed results. Hard to really get a grasp on what's going to be good enough to make the cut right now.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
1 Blighted Fen
1 Westvale Abbey
2 Aether Hub
4 Choked Estuary
4 Fetid Pools
4 Sunken Hollow
4 Island
6 Swamp
Draw spells (5)
2 Glimmer of Genius
3 Pull from Tomorrow
4 Supreme Will
3 Disallow
1 Negate
Removal (16)
2 Doomfall
2 Murder
2 Bontu's Last Reckoning
3 Fatal Push
3 Never // Return
4 Grasp of Darkness
Win-cons (5)
2 The Scarab God
3 Torrential Gearhulk
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
1 Summary Dismissal
2 Bontu's Last Reckoning
2 Essence Scatter
2 Flaying Tendrils
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Negate
2 Hour of Glory
EDIT: made some changes to the list already - Anticipates out, Nevers in, plus a couple of SB tweaks.
EDIT: Doomfall in the main for Hour of Glory, which moves to the side for the Torments of Hailfire.
Also, I understand the gods are hard to get rid of but what is it doing in your deck? You won't have a lot of zombies and you won't have anything to exile. So I think you should start with 4 GH it is a tried and true value in a new meta and 1 god.
Everything else is pretty good I think.
1 Blighted Fen
2 Choked Estuary
4 Fetid Pools
7 Island
2 Submerged Boneyard
4 Sunken Hollow
5 Swamp
1 Westvale Abbey
Instants (23)
1 Commit // Memory
3 Disallow
1 Essence Scatter
3 Fatal Push
3 Grasp of Darkness
4 Hieroglyphic Illumination
2 Negate
3 Pull from Tomorrow
2 Supreme Will
1 Void Shatter
2 Never // Return
2 Yahenni's Expertise
Planeswalkers (3)
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
Creatures (4)
1 The Scarab God
3 Torrential Gearhulk
1 Confirm Suspicions
1 Crook of Condemnation
2 Dispel
1 Essence Scatter
2 Hour of Glory
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Kefnet the Mindful
1 Negate
2 Transgress the Mind
1 Yahenni's Expertise
The week previously, I took a similar deck except I replaced the planeswalkers with Metallurgic Summonings. I've beat every deck I have faced so far, except for 5 colour New Perspectives, but it was the first time facing it so I was still learning it.
Decks I faced (that I can remember) were GW Humans, Thermo-Alchemist, UR Control, New Perspectives and UR Zombie Emerge.
I am thinking of removing The Scarab God, it felt like more of a win-more card. I did not play it at all last night, even though I had it in hand sometimes. It might pay off more if you build your deck around it, I guess.
I haven't had a chance to play with Bontu's Last Reckoning yet, but I can't remember a scenario where I might have needed it in the past two weeks. That can change.
As for the God, I have to disagree. I don't actually see Gearhulk as a main win-condition. This logic is a holdover from my Summonings deck, which came from the CFB article on it. It basically says that Gearhulk should be used as a way to bridge the gap to the late game, and due to the fact that it will eat an otherwise useless removal spell, shouldn't be a main win-con. 3 hulks seemed to be the number settled on by most decks later on in the previous Standard. 4 means there's a high chance of getting an opening hand with two, and that really seems more like a mulligan than a useful hand. So, the God. I don't need creatures in my deck to make it work. The text says "Exile target creature card from A graveyard", not just your own. In much the same way that Ashiok uses the opponents deck against them, so does The Scarab God. End of turn, spare mana? Well, I have a full grip, so make a couple of 4/4s. Next turn, same thing, while fixing my draw to kill more of your stuff and give more 4/4/ fodder. The only time it wouldn't be effective is in the control mirror, at which point you have Kalitas, Sphinx, potentially Torment of Hailfire as win-cons, and Gearhulks then become more valuable. Arguably Scarab God stays as a damage win-con, rather than the drain life text mattering.
As a slight aside (and maybe not even related to this thread, technically) - has anyone thought of running a UB shell and splashing ~8 red sources just to include Bolas? BBD had a list up that adapts UR control to splash 8 black sources, so it could be fairly easy to do...
A lot of people have been running that control list online. I think Bolas is a trap. The real power that deck added was Hour of Devastation. I think Chandra, Flamecaller would be better in the slot they're trying to jam Bolas into.
- Only 25 land. I'm guessing that the early cycling helps find the drops? Also, 19 blue sources seems a lot (90% for T3 UU for Disallow, I think), with only 18 black being a little tight for needing BB for T2 Grasp or T3 Murder.
- Up to four main deck Gearhulks, using them as the main win-con along with Lili
- No use of Supreme Will, preferring the lower cost of Censor
- Hieroglyphic Illumination preferred over Glimmer, I assume for the cycling
- Only two Grasp, evidently preferring to counter them in the first place
- Nine main deck counters
- Vizier and Overwhelming Denial in the side...
4 Torrential Gearhulk
Planeswalker (2)
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
Spells (29)
2 Bontu's Last Reckoning
3 Censor
1 Commit // Memory
3 Disallow
3 Essence Scatter
3 Fatal Push
2 Grasp of Darkness
4 Hieroglyphic Illumination
3 Murder
3 Pull from Tomorrow
2 To the Slaughter
4 Choked Estuary
4 Fetid Pools
7 Island
4 Sunken Hollow
6 Swamp
1 Fatal Push
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Kefnet the Mindful
2 Negate
1 Never // Return
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Overwhelming Denial
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
2 Transgress the Mind
1 Vizier of Many Faces
2 Yahenni's Expertise
4 Choked Estuary
4 Fetid Pools
3 Sunken Hollow
7 Islands
7 Swamps
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Torrential Gearhulk
3 Fatal Push
4 Grasp of Darkness
2 Murder
3 Censor
3 Essence Scatter
3 Void Shatter
1 Disallow
1 Supreme Will
4 Glimmer of Genius
3 Yaheeni's Expertise
1 Never
2 Negate
1 Disallow
1 Supreme Will
1 Fatal Push
1 Murder
1 Never
2 Consign
2 Doomfall
1 Torment of Scarabs
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
New to the forum, so hi, this list is my first take on UB Control. MB is for a meta heavy with B Zombies and UW Monumennt. Kalitas and Yaheenis Expertise seem excellent in both. With some "unconditional" removal in consign and the edict in doomfall plus their discard other halves add to the versatility that we play Supreme Will for. Torment of Scarabs along with our Sphinx are for control mirrors. while the rest of the board is meant to allow us to zero in to a more correct number and quality of removal/counter in games 2 or 3. I haven't missed Pull and also cut Commit because I rarely wanted to give my opponent a fresh 7 with its better half. Is a Scarab God in the sb something worth considering? Mostly playing at instant speed the goal is to be making very strong plays when tapping on our turn. Is Pull too good not to play? Is Torment black's fevered visions? Is our God the almighty even with out a creature heavy build? I obviously think there is something strong in this archetype and that with refining can be a major player in this brave new standard.
A cantrip is a card that replaces itself while doing something. A good example is Exclude or Dismiss. Censor just gives you a choice. Otherwise, cycling would make all cards cantrips, which is not true.
Supreme Will is amazing though. I don't understand any control deck that isn't playing it. It's never a dead card.
Oh my god, it was insane. I played 3 rounds last night, went 3-1 (got a bye as well) for a Top 4 finish from 13 people. I was able to cast Bolas every round, and usually I waited until the turn I wanted to play him before playing the Aether Hub, at least for Game 1 so no one saw him coming. I pulled his ult twice, and decimated decks. Now I'm half tempted to keep on with this list, and not put the Scarab Gods in!
1 Blighted Fen
1 Westvale Abbey
3 Sunken Hollow
4 Aether Hub
4 Choked Estuary
4 Fetid Pools
4 Island
5 Swamp
Draw spells (5)
2 Glimmer of Genius
3 Pull from Tomorrow
2 Essence Scatter
3 Disallow
4 Supreme Will
Removal (16)
2 Bontu's Last Reckoning
2 Doomfall
2 Never // Return
3 Fatal Push
3 Murder
4 Grasp of Darkness
Win-cons (5)
2 Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh
3 Torrential Gearhulk
1 Kefnet the Mindful
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Overwhelming Denial
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
1 Vizier of Many Faces
1 Hour of Glory
2 Liliana's Defeat
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Negate
2 Yahenni's Expertise