Traditionally, GR Aggro has not been good vs. other red decks. If you recall, decks like Unfriendly Skies, Kibler's RG Aggro, and Jund Monsters were all garbage against the lower to the ground red aggro decks. GR Stormbreath was below average vs. Rw Chained to the Rocks because their removal was on and ours wasn't.
Basically, it's a bit much to expect RG aggro to be good vs. smaller aggro decks. You need clunky Jund, Abzan, or random control decks to be good to power through. Mostly, your threats tend to line up well vs. removal but you sacrifice some amount of efficiency for that resiliency.
I think the best way to prepare against other decks like Rw Vehicles is to play 4x Harnessed Lightning and 4x Galvanic Bombardment. But don't be surprised if you deck still stinks vs. them.
Traditionally, GR Aggro has not been good vs. other red decks. If you recall, decks like Unfriendly Skies, Kibler's RG Aggro, and Jund Monsters were all garbage against the lower to the ground red aggro decks. GR Stormbreath was below average vs. Rw Chained to the Rocks because their removal was on and ours wasn't.
Basically, it's a bit much to expect RG aggro to be good vs. smaller aggro decks. You need clunky Jund, Abzan, or random control decks to be good to power through. Mostly, your threats tend to line up well vs. removal but you sacrifice some amount of efficiency for that resiliency.
I think the best way to prepare against other decks like Rw Vehicles is to play 4x Harnessed Lightning and 4x Galvanic Bombardment. But don't be surprised if you deck still stinks vs. them.
so is R/G Aggro a trap like B/R vampires was, then?
so is R/G Aggro a trap like B/R vampires was, then?
Maybe? I think the meta has to shape up in a very particular way. If Copter keeps the Gideon decks down, I could see a Bristling Hydra deck getting traction. It blanks Declaration in Stone, Unlicensed Disintegration, and Harnessed Lightning. Boardwipes were no where to be seen but removal spells were the grease in the aggro decks wheels, allowing them to pull super efficient turns.
Energy is super powerful, just look at Harnessed Lightning this past weekend. It's just not clear that the 2-3 drops were pushed enough to make them viable in coming standard. R&D knew they were playing with fire when developing energy as a standard mechanic.
I have a couple of notes from this deck that are worth mentioning:
-- Attune as only one drop. Kessig Prowler just gets blanked by what WR Vehicles is doing. It's fine vs. BR but awful vs the Inventor's Apprentice. Attune lets you hit land drops (necessary for the midrange slogs that aggro mirrors can turn into) and feed into your dorks and Hydras.
-- Servant of the Conduit is very good. At first I was wary of this card, given 2cmc mana dorks even against the control decks in previous standard but ramping into a 4cmc hexproof brickwall is pretty good.
-- Sin Prodder has always been meh. It's no Tireless Tracker and you'd expect me to play Tireless Tracker. However, Sin Prodder lets you nab advantages without spending mana. Sin Prodder + Arlinn Kord has always been an excellent way to kill a Gideon but now with Gearhulk, you can just ramp into a huge menace threat.
-- Arlinn Kord is not very good against Looter scooter and I think I should be wary of playing her. However, she lets you yank huge advantages when you achieve a board stall.
-- Attune as only one drop. Kessig Prowler just gets blanked by what WR Vehicles is doing. It's fine vs. BR but awful vs the Inventor's Apprentice. Attune lets you hit land drops (necessary for the midrange slogs that aggro mirrors can turn into) and feed into your dorks and Hydras.
i've successfully piloted a mono red deck facing W/r Humans pre-rotation. the technique was to board out nearly all one drops for removal (10 additional removal aside from the main's 14). but i utilized Hanweir Garrison to close games quickly. Lathnu Hellion doesn't seem too helpful because it doesn't have some sort of evasion. when something survives Hellion will just get chump blocked and eventually die, whereas Garrison can always push damage through with its tokens.
maybe the key is not necessarily G/R Energy, but G/R Goodstuff.
It helps end games quickly but it doesn't fit the "plays offense and defense well" bill at all. We're not the fastest deck in the format.
Yeah, it seems that GR needs to go towards that direction. I was thinking of still go aggressively Renegade Tactics along with Galvanic Bombardment and Harnessed Lightning. Potentially we could just race them, but I'm not sure.
It helps end games quickly but it doesn't fit the "plays offense and defense well" bill at all. We're not the fastest deck in the format.
Yeah, it seems that GR needs to go towards that direction. I was thinking of still go aggressively Renegade Tactics along with Galvanic Bombardment and Harnessed Lightning. Potentially we could just race them, but I'm not sure.
Yeah, I mean, you can just sidestep the issue by actually creating the fastest deck in the format. All-in-Gruul might be fine.
They are running blossoming Defense. I run 3 MB. I'm using Appetite of the Unnatural right now for SB anti-artifact...but I may switch to Natural State. It'll depend on how prominent cruisers and gearhulks are.
Is Chandra an important piece in red green energy ?
This post is the start of a thread merged from Standard main. Per this guideline, Standard main is about general metagame and strategy discussion. Specific deck discussions and decklists belong in the subforums. -- hoser2
This is obviously a very rough sketch with all these fours, possibly even untested, but I think that he's onto something. These pump spells are good, and there are plenty of sources for trample. If we go all in on the pump plan, Electrostatic Pummeler looks completely insane. Imagine slapping two pump spells on it and removing six energy counters... I'm not sure about the Hydra, I feel like maybe this curve is a little high and that a one drop creature might be good. I guess the other question is if we have enough protection from instant speed removal. Hydra protects itself, Blossoming protects from pretty much anything, we should have enough creatures to be edict proof, and two of the best kill spells in the format are sorcery speed. But I don't know... Also, Smuggler's Copter? Possibly not a 4-of, but a few certainly. 1-2 Arlinn could also be good.
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I think the biggest problem I have with Electrostatic Pummeler is that he dies to Liliana, however the wombo-combo with pump spells is great. Yea we have Blossoming Defense, but is it enough to protect it ?
I think it's time to do a count of played instant spells that kill stuff. That part is going to be crucial. The red ones we can just pump our way out of, but apart from that? Murder?
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Depends on the deck, what would be used at that CMC, is the deck aggro, is it midrange, how does she fit.
I think Chandra may be more narrow than people realize, if she is meant to + on the turn she can enter, than you need things that cost 1R or RR
if not, then to best optimize her without using tempo for that + (being completely dynamically used) you'd need something that cost 7 and to be good in a goldfish situation, otherwise she's just removal and card advantage, which is great by the way, but for full effectiveness she needs to also have full usability.
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The red mage lives by the variance and dies by the variance. May the variance be with you, always.
If it's a more aggro version, Arlinn Kord might be better, but she has a hard time against Smuggler's Copter, but if you watch Jeff Hoagland's Replays with G/R energy aggro with Arlinn Kord, she was awesome.
The thing about this deck archetype that doesn't seem to fit for me is that there isn't anything particularly powerful about the energy cards, they all are self supportive, and you can certainly funnel them into something other than themselves, but perhaps the most powerful energy card is Aetherworks Marvel, the aggro cards at best keep getting bigger, but even then, most of them require a difficult task to generate passive energy.
I think in the aggro theme, the above poster is correct to use the Electrostatic Pummeler, as it is one of the three most powerful effects in R/G energy, the others being the Bristleback Hydra and the Voltaic Brawler.
If I had to throw in something constructive on this, I'd say, jam Electrostatic Pumeler, maybe 12 pump spells and Bedlam Reveler so you don't run out of gas going for the throat of your opponent.
I prefer more low cmc haste creatures paired with pump spells, but again, energy cards right? At least these pumps protect/trample so you're going to get through easy.
Occasionally pummeler will make the team go IN
Occasionally you'll have them close, draw a 2 mana 3/4, cast, and draw what you need, maybe?
positive win rate against those two decks. the deck can kill in 4 turns if left unchecked.
some feedback regarding specific cards:
1. Lathnu Hellion - my biggest problem with the card is that it's parasitic. it depends on energy to have some sort of staying power, but that's fair since it's a 4/4 hasty beater for 3 CMC. however, it does kill Gideon instantly when i get to remove the token Gideon generated.
2. Borderland Marauder - still kills opponents quickly. really underrated card, in my opinion.
3. Longtusk Cub - maybe should be replaced with Thriving Grubs for the 2 Energy it provides to help fuel Brawler or Hellion.
4. Voltaic Brawler - a really nasty beatdown card. even when i run out of Energy, it's still a 3/2 creature that helps end games quickly.
5. Scythe Leopard - the card that most underperformed. terrible top deck mid game too. maybe replace with Village Messenger.
biggest obstacles i encountered:
1. Bristling Hydra - when the opponent had enough Energy, it was practically impossible for me to remove. one game, i had to concede when he had a Hydra and 9 energy and i didn't have enough creatures and burn to punch through.
3. mana consistency - as expected, the mana base could use some work, or that the deck has to change to be more consistent. having R and G one drops really hurts sometimes when the lands don't match the mana requirement. as Lugger noted, though, G/R is not the fastest deck in the format, so maybe removing some of the one drops for better 2 drops would be preferable to frustrating opening hands.
4. catching up from behind - no more Abbot of Keral Keep means it's hard - maybe even impossible - to catch up.
5. lack of direct damage burn spells - i am quite uncomfortable playing Harnessed Lightning and Galvanic Bombardment because they can't go to the face. they do, however, greatly aid in my game plan of putting as much power on the board by turn 2-3 and then just use removal on opposing creatures.
well, that's my playtest report. any suggestions? thanks!
The more I play with Bristling Hydra and Verdurous Gearhulk the more I think it's probably legit. Get you a hexproof guy that can get itself pumped aw yeah.
If you have Harnessed Lightning just rotting in your hand, you're in luck. Now it's a Negate that pumps your guy.
You're a stompy deck that's fantastic against removal spell decks. This weekend, people will start bringing removal to respond to vehicles. Some will have it, some won't. Basically, people will start playing removal again and when that happens, Bristling Hydra is a good place to be.
The more I play with Bristling Hydra and Verdurous Gearhulk the more I think it's probably legit. Get you a hexproof guy that can get itself pumped aw yeah.
If you have Harnessed Lightning just rotting in your hand, you're in luck. Now it's a Negate that pumps your guy.
You're a stompy deck that's fantastic against removal spell decks. This weekend, people will start bringing removal to respond to vehicles. Some will have it, some won't. Basically, people will start playing removal again and when that happens, Bristling Hydra is a good place to be.
Bristling Hydra is an awesome card. Sure some will argue that it gets chumped all day, but as long you have continuous supply of energy, it just gets bigger and harder for spot removal.
EDIT : I still think that Kessig Prowler is a good 1 drop because of its mana dump ability. If curved well but even without Greenhulk, the werewolf can also transforms into a bigger threat.
There are some versions of this kind of deck:
http://www.magic-league.com/deck/93220/kaladesh_standard.html#GR Aggro388701
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/rg-energy-midrange/
Standard Decks:
Dinosaurs
Aggro Retired
Aggro Retired
Tokens Retired
Temur White Retired
Dragons Retired
Monsters Retired
Aggro Retired
Midrange Retired
Zombies Retired
Basically, it's a bit much to expect RG aggro to be good vs. smaller aggro decks. You need clunky Jund, Abzan, or random control decks to be good to power through. Mostly, your threats tend to line up well vs. removal but you sacrifice some amount of efficiency for that resiliency.
I think the best way to prepare against other decks like Rw Vehicles is to play 4x Harnessed Lightning and 4x Galvanic Bombardment. But don't be surprised if you deck still stinks vs. them.
so is R/G Aggro a trap like B/R vampires was, then?
Maybe? I think the meta has to shape up in a very particular way. If Copter keeps the Gideon decks down, I could see a Bristling Hydra deck getting traction. It blanks Declaration in Stone, Unlicensed Disintegration, and Harnessed Lightning. Boardwipes were no where to be seen but removal spells were the grease in the aggro decks wheels, allowing them to pull super efficient turns.
Energy is super powerful, just look at Harnessed Lightning this past weekend. It's just not clear that the 2-3 drops were pushed enough to make them viable in coming standard. R&D knew they were playing with fire when developing energy as a standard mechanic.
4x Sylvan Advocate
4x Servant of the Conduit
4x Sin Prodder
3x Bristling Hydra
4x Verdurous Gearhulk
4x Harnessed Lightning
4x Galvanic Bombardment
3x Attune with Aether
4x Cinder Glade
4x Game Trail
2x Aether Hub
7x Forest
6x Mountain
I have a couple of notes from this deck that are worth mentioning:
-- Attune as only one drop. Kessig Prowler just gets blanked by what WR Vehicles is doing. It's fine vs. BR but awful vs the Inventor's Apprentice. Attune lets you hit land drops (necessary for the midrange slogs that aggro mirrors can turn into) and feed into your dorks and Hydras.
-- Servant of the Conduit is very good. At first I was wary of this card, given 2cmc mana dorks even against the control decks in previous standard but ramping into a 4cmc hexproof brickwall is pretty good.
-- Sin Prodder has always been meh. It's no Tireless Tracker and you'd expect me to play Tireless Tracker. However, Sin Prodder lets you nab advantages without spending mana. Sin Prodder + Arlinn Kord has always been an excellent way to kill a Gideon but now with Gearhulk, you can just ramp into a huge menace threat.
-- Arlinn Kord is not very good against Looter scooter and I think I should be wary of playing her. However, she lets you yank huge advantages when you achieve a board stall.
-- 4x Galvanic Bombardment. This card is super good right now.
I haven't thought about how to beat the dredge decks. They look super good. Probably an evasive beater + removal.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
i've successfully piloted a mono red deck facing W/r Humans pre-rotation. the technique was to board out nearly all one drops for removal (10 additional removal aside from the main's 14). but i utilized Hanweir Garrison to close games quickly. Lathnu Hellion doesn't seem too helpful because it doesn't have some sort of evasion. when something survives Hellion will just get chump blocked and eventually die, whereas Garrison can always push damage through with its tokens.
maybe the key is not necessarily G/R Energy, but G/R Goodstuff.
Spirits
G/b
Emerge
As long as you run 7-8 kill cards to beat copter energy creatures are faster and stronger.
It helps end games quickly but it doesn't fit the "plays offense and defense well" bill at all. We're not the fastest deck in the format.
Yeah, it seems that GR needs to go towards that direction. I was thinking of still go aggressively Renegade Tactics along with Galvanic Bombardment and Harnessed Lightning. Potentially we could just race them, but I'm not sure.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
Yeah, I mean, you can just sidestep the issue by actually creating the fastest deck in the format. All-in-Gruul might be fine.
This post is the start of a thread merged from Standard main. Per this guideline, Standard main is about general metagame and strategy discussion. Specific deck discussions and decklists belong in the subforums. -- hoser2
4 Voltaic Brawler
4 Electrostatic Pummeler
4 Bristling Hydra
4 Blossoming Defense
4 Built to Smash
4 Harnessed Lightning
4 Larger Than Life
4 Uncaged Fury
8 Forest
4 Game Trail
4 Mountain
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Link to the list: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13642&f=ST
Standard Decks:
Dinosaurs
Aggro Retired
Aggro Retired
Tokens Retired
Temur White Retired
Dragons Retired
Monsters Retired
Aggro Retired
Midrange Retired
Zombies Retired
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
I think Chandra may be more narrow than people realize, if she is meant to + on the turn she can enter, than you need things that cost 1R or RR
if not, then to best optimize her without using tempo for that + (being completely dynamically used) you'd need something that cost 7 and to be good in a goldfish situation, otherwise she's just removal and card advantage, which is great by the way, but for full effectiveness she needs to also have full usability.
Link to Jeff's Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0OFObRNMjSsnuEMGA-K29Q
Standard Decks:
Dinosaurs
Aggro Retired
Aggro Retired
Tokens Retired
Temur White Retired
Dragons Retired
Monsters Retired
Aggro Retired
Midrange Retired
Zombies Retired
I think in the aggro theme, the above poster is correct to use the Electrostatic Pummeler, as it is one of the three most powerful effects in R/G energy, the others being the Bristleback Hydra and the Voltaic Brawler.
If I had to throw in something constructive on this, I'd say, jam Electrostatic Pumeler, maybe 12 pump spells and Bedlam Reveler so you don't run out of gas going for the throat of your opponent.
Something like
4 Longtusk Cub
4 Voltaic Brawler
4 Electrostatic Pummeler
3 Bedlam Reveler
3 Bristling Hydra
3 Lathnu Hellion
4 Blossoming Defense
4 Larger Than Life
4 Built to Smash
4 Harnessed Lightning
4 Aether Hub
8 Forest
4 Game Trail
4 Mountain
I prefer more low cmc haste creatures paired with pump spells, but again, energy cards right? At least these pumps protect/trample so you're going to get through easy.
Occasionally pummeler will make the team go IN
Occasionally you'll have them close, draw a 2 mana 3/4, cast, and draw what you need, maybe?
2 Borderland Marauder
2 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Kessig Prowler
4 Lathnu Hellion
4 Longtusk Cub
4 Scythe Leopard
4 Voltaic Brawler
2 Collective Defiance
4 Galvanic Bombardment
4 Harnessed Lightning
4 Incendiary Flow
Lands 22
4 Aether Hub
4 Cinder Glade
4 Forest
4 Game Trail
6 Mountain
positive win rate against those two decks. the deck can kill in 4 turns if left unchecked.
some feedback regarding specific cards:
1. Lathnu Hellion - my biggest problem with the card is that it's parasitic. it depends on energy to have some sort of staying power, but that's fair since it's a 4/4 hasty beater for 3 CMC. however, it does kill Gideon instantly when i get to remove the token Gideon generated.
2. Borderland Marauder - still kills opponents quickly. really underrated card, in my opinion.
3. Longtusk Cub - maybe should be replaced with Thriving Grubs for the 2 Energy it provides to help fuel Brawler or Hellion.
4. Voltaic Brawler - a really nasty beatdown card. even when i run out of Energy, it's still a 3/2 creature that helps end games quickly.
5. Scythe Leopard - the card that most underperformed. terrible top deck mid game too. maybe replace with Village Messenger.
biggest obstacles i encountered:
1. Bristling Hydra - when the opponent had enough Energy, it was practically impossible for me to remove. one game, i had to concede when he had a Hydra and 9 energy and i didn't have enough creatures and burn to punch through.
2. Verdurous Gearhulk - maybe the reason to put Appetite for the Unnatural in the SB. really absurdly powerful card. i got smashed.
3. mana consistency - as expected, the mana base could use some work, or that the deck has to change to be more consistent. having R and G one drops really hurts sometimes when the lands don't match the mana requirement. as Lugger noted, though, G/R is not the fastest deck in the format, so maybe removing some of the one drops for better 2 drops would be preferable to frustrating opening hands.
4. catching up from behind - no more Abbot of Keral Keep means it's hard - maybe even impossible - to catch up.
5. lack of direct damage burn spells - i am quite uncomfortable playing Harnessed Lightning and Galvanic Bombardment because they can't go to the face. they do, however, greatly aid in my game plan of putting as much power on the board by turn 2-3 and then just use removal on opposing creatures.
well, that's my playtest report. any suggestions? thanks!
4 Aether Hub
3 Cinder Glade
4 Game Trail
6 Forest
6 Mountain
4 Kessig Prowler
4 Voltaic Brawler
4 Longtusk Cub
2 Servant of the Conduit
4 Lathnu Hellion
2 Brazen Scourge
2 Bristling Hydra
Sideboard
2 Fleetwheel Cruiser
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Harnessed Lightning
3 Collective Defiance
2 Renegade Tactics
2 Attune with Aether
You can ensure that you have a continuous supply of removal protection with Attune with Aether, Voltaic Brawler, and Servant of the Conduit.
If you have Harnessed Lightning just rotting in your hand, you're in luck. Now it's a Negate that pumps your guy.
You're a stompy deck that's fantastic against removal spell decks. This weekend, people will start bringing removal to respond to vehicles. Some will have it, some won't. Basically, people will start playing removal again and when that happens, Bristling Hydra is a good place to be.
Agreed. Previous EMN week 1 also full of Wx weenies / spirits but PT results was totally different.
Bristling Hydra is an awesome card. Sure some will argue that it gets chumped all day, but as long you have continuous supply of energy, it just gets bigger and harder for spot removal.
Btw, I was thinking of something like this.
4 Kessig Prowler
4 Voltaic Browler
4 Servant of the Conduit
4 Lathnu Hellion
4 Bristling Hydra
4 Verdurous Gearhulk
4 Attune with Aether
4 Galvanic Bombardment
4 Harnessed Lightning
Lands
4 Aether Hub
4 Game Trail
8 Forest
8 Mountain
EDIT : I still think that Kessig Prowler is a good 1 drop because of its mana dump ability. If curved well but even without Greenhulk, the werewolf can also transforms into a bigger threat.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG