Thank for the tips, Dispel might really be a game changer in the next few weeks, People really underestimated settle the wreckage. In my opinion U/W control will be the best control deck. Carnage tyrant going to be played a lot in sideboard (dino, green/White ramp/Temur Energy etc.) And the best way to deal with it is Fumigate and settle the wreckage, and guess is double white each, so primary color for control will be U/W for sure, maybe with some black splash for scarab god.
A lot of U/W control are playing 3-4 settle main, then can cycle it via Chart a course if they dont need it. Trust me U/W is really in a good position, their only bad matchup is RDW, and RDW going to get obliterate by dino/ pirate / vampire token deck with lifelink.
Lost legacy is the best answerd against them, but you need to cast it a the right time, they have to be tapout. Its their only wincon.
The problem with lost legacy is its only good against second sun deck, and you cant play 1-2 copy, you need at least 3 to have a good chance of drawing it earlier, because in late game it get counter so easily.
The most impirtant things right now is the sideboard for Temur. Here is my suggestion:
aetherspehere haverster x 2 = aginast RDW, lifelink is a must
Negate x4 = best sideboard card ever, needed for board swipe/second sun/annointed procession (life changer if it get counter)
Confiscation coup x2 = Best card against mirror/Dino (any midrange deck), can steal opponent God
Sweltering sun x 2 (this card im not so sure) = great against pirate/vampire tokens/RDW?
Vraska/Chandra x 2??? = Against control to keep a token generator/destroy opponent cast out/destroy big creatures?
Dispel x 4 ??? = Against RDW (protect our harvester from abrade) somany instant in rdw, against control settle wreckage and counter backup, perfect for us only 1 mana, can really trick our opponent, and can also counter backup our negate against second sun
Lost legacy x 3/4 ??? = against second sun deck
Thank for the tips, Dispel might really be a game changer in the next few weeks, People really underestimated settle the wreckage. In my opinion U/W control will be the best control deck. Carnage tyrant going to be played a lot in sideboard (dino, green/White ramp/Temur Energy etc.) And the best way to deal with it is Fumigate and settle the wreckage, and guess is double white each, so primary color for control will be U/W for sure, maybe with some black splash for scarab god.
A lot of U/W control are playing 3-4 settle main, then can cycle it via Chart a course if they dont need it. Trust me U/W is really in a good position, their only bad matchup is RDW, and RDW going to get obliterate by dino/ pirate / vampire token deck with lifelink.
Lost legacy is the best answerd against them, but you need to cast it a the right time, they have to be tapout. Its their only wincon.
The problem with lost legacy is its only good against second sun deck, and you cant play 1-2 copy, you need at least 3 to have a good chance of drawing it earlier, because in late game it get counter so easily.
The most impirtant things right now is the sideboard for Temur. Here is my suggestion:
aetherspehere haverster x 2 = aginast RDW, lifelink is a must
Negate x4 = best sideboard card ever, needed for board swipe/second sun/annointed procession (life changer if it get counter)
Confiscation coup x2 = Best card against mirror/Dino (any midrange deck), can steal opponent God
Sweltering sun x 2 (this card im not so sure) = great against pirate/vampire tokens/RDW?
Vraska/Chandra x 2??? = Against control to keep a token generator/destroy opponent cast out/destroy big creatures?
Dispel x 4 ??? = Against RDW (protect our harvester from abrade) somany instant in rdw, against control settle wreckage and counter backup, perfect for us only 1 mana, can really trick our opponent, and can also counter backup our negate against second sun
Lost legacy x 3/4 ??? = against second sun deck
Please your tought?
I do agree that UW is probably well positioned, its just that Temur isn't going to be an easy win for them. I have actually started getting the pieces I need for it myself because I have been wanting to play a control deck and that hasn't been possible for a while, looks fun. On a side note Chart A Course is a really weird inclusion for Approach and I can't imagine running it over opt. Chart is card advantage for a tempo deck, and unless you are playing gearhulks there is no reason to be pitching cards for 2 mana when you can spend 1 on an opt and be able to play it on the opponents turn. But this isn't U/W approach thread so I digress.
Lost Legacy is a terrible magic card to be forced into playing. I strongly dislike those effects, because most likely there will be a sideboard plan with an alt win con, more so if Legacy becomes a thing. Spending turn three doing potentially nothing can be back breaking and if I find myself "needing" it, I would probably be inclined to just play approach myself. Duress and Negate together in the sideboard, that's somewhere I don't mind being however. Duress is versatile and can actually help you win games without whole turns of do-nothing.
For your sideboard thoughts
Harvester is fine. I have cut mine, and bring them back if I expect an excess of RRed. You don't have to have it against them, it just makes life a little bit easier. Whirlers and Hydras and Glorybringser and Skysoverign are all great against them and that is all in the main deck, I currently fun an etra abrade/spray and bring those in. I have flex back and forth between Struggle // Survive and harvester. GY hate is good against GPG decks and scarab god mirrors, and when I have them I bring them in against RRed, extra removal is just fine and getting those earthshakers out of their yard is fine as well.
Negate is a snap 4 and the same for Coup at 2 of, I can't see cutting them anytime soon.
Sweltering Sun is currently un needed. I was running Radiant Flames and cut them because the only games I ever really wanted it was against zombies, and Chandra, Flamecaller does just fine there. Zombies and Flamecaller will both be gone next week, I guess we will see what pops up if you really want to go that route but I feel that we have access to the best spot removal in the format, we have creatures that are pseudo removal and its just not really necessary. Double red on a 3 drop in a 3 color deck can also be problematic.
I like Vraska, I think its probably only good in grindy matchups. Against aggro decks it doesn't do enough to help win the game faster. On second thought though its maybe better than the Slice in Twain I mentioned a few posts ago, so if I am in black for Scarab God I can see wanting Vraska in the side and its at least worth trying. Chandra is fine. I don't run them anymore myself but its just a preference so play them if you want them. Its not really ever going to be a bad card.
Dispel is probably a 2 of, you don't want to go too deep on them. Having multiples can feel bad, its a card when you want it you want it and sometimes you just want anything other than it. 2 is usually a sweet spot for a card like that and sometimes even just 1 does the trick.
Forget about Legacy for now. That was just a forethought and unless you are switching to a base black deck it won't work. The black splash won't support BB, and you won't have B early enough to even play duress.
It sounds a little janky but I an a fan of Blossoming Defense and Heroic Intervention. Though they will get worse against settle the wreckage. I would probably never run Blossoming defense in temur, as its mostly a tool for more aggressive strategies but Intervention is interesting. Unfortunately its a little more narrow now and if Hour of Devastation decks make a rise in numbers its unplayable. But it can act as negate 5 and 6 against some decks, and against suns it protects against spot removal and fumigate.
I'm not down on ripjaw raptor yet either. I think I want 2 in the main and one more in the board. Its terrible against suns, but should be great in other spots. I'm not replacing Hydra with it though, and fitting it into a Scarab God shell is difficult, although activating Scarab God on your dead raptor sounds greeeat. Its possible it is just a sideboard card or not a card for temur energy at all, but its one of those cards that will take me failing at a few times before I can write it off.
Shaper's Sanctuary is another possible inclusion and lines up kind of like evolutionary leap did a few standards ago. Sanctuary has the potential to be better in certain situations having to only pay G and no activation cost. I'm high on that card right now as well. Irrelevant to temur probably, but it puts Blossoming Defense on steroids. I think I am seeing this interaction correctly but maybe I'm not. They target your creature with removal and you have sanctuary in play, draw trigger happens, you respond with Defense keep your creature and get a card. And maybe this creature is something they really need gone and target it in response to Defense and now you draw again. You don't even care, you have created a 2 card advantage over your opponent and it only cost you one measly G. If it/those are the only card(s)you draw from it all game it was worth it.
Anyhow I got a little long winded there. I'm not too hyped for the majority of the new cards but in a few weeks I'm sure things will shake up a little bit. It should be interesting.
Oh, also Spell pierce for the SB plan. Its not as narrow as dispel and may just be better.
Spell pierce is really a trash card for us. Its terrible late game, and can easily be played around. Spell pierce is only good in aggro/tempo deck (like pirate, or merlfok if it ever become a standard deck one day)
Thank for the tips, Dispel might really be a game changer in the next few weeks, People really underestimated settle the wreckage. In my opinion U/W control will be the best control deck. Carnage tyrant going to be played a lot in sideboard (dino, green/White ramp/Temur Energy etc.) And the best way to deal with it is Fumigate and settle the wreckage, and guess is double white each, so primary color for control will be U/W for sure, maybe with some black splash for scarab god.
A lot of U/W control are playing 3-4 settle main, then can cycle it via Chart a course if they dont need it. Trust me U/W is really in a good position, their only bad matchup is RDW, and RDW going to get obliterate by dino/ pirate / vampire token deck with lifelink.
Lost legacy is the best answerd against them, but you need to cast it a the right time, they have to be tapout. Its their only wincon.
The problem with lost legacy is its only good against second sun deck, and you cant play 1-2 copy, you need at least 3 to have a good chance of drawing it earlier, because in late game it get counter so easily.
The most impirtant things right now is the sideboard for Temur. Here is my suggestion:
aetherspehere haverster x 2 = aginast RDW, lifelink is a must
Negate x4 = best sideboard card ever, needed for board swipe/second sun/annointed procession (life changer if it get counter)
Confiscation coup x2 = Best card against mirror/Dino (any midrange deck), can steal opponent God
Sweltering sun x 2 (this card im not so sure) = great against pirate/vampire tokens/RDW?
Vraska/Chandra x 2??? = Against control to keep a token generator/destroy opponent cast out/destroy big creatures?
Dispel x 4 ??? = Against RDW (protect our harvester from abrade) somany instant in rdw, against control settle wreckage and counter backup, perfect for us only 1 mana, can really trick our opponent, and can also counter backup our negate against second sun
Lost legacy x 3/4 ??? = against second sun deck
Please your tought?
I do agree that UW is probably well positioned, its just that Temur isn't going to be an easy win for them. I have actually started getting the pieces I need for it myself because I have been wanting to play a control deck and that hasn't been possible for a while, looks fun. On a side note Chart A Course is a really weird inclusion for Approach and I can't imagine running it over opt. Chart is card advantage for a tempo deck, and unless you are playing gearhulks there is no reason to be pitching cards for 2 mana when you can spend 1 on an opt and be able to play it on the opponents turn. But this isn't U/W approach thread so I digress.
Lost Legacy is a terrible magic card to be forced into playing. I strongly dislike those effects, because most likely there will be a sideboard plan with an alt win con, more so if Legacy becomes a thing. Spending turn three doing potentially nothing can be back breaking and if I find myself "needing" it, I would probably be inclined to just play approach myself. Duress and Negate together in the sideboard, that's somewhere I don't mind being however. Duress is versatile and can actually help you win games without whole turns of do-nothing.
For your sideboard thoughts
Harvester is fine. I have cut mine, and bring them back if I expect an excess of RRed. You don't have to have it against them, it just makes life a little bit easier. Whirlers and Hydras and Glorybringser and Skysoverign are all great against them and that is all in the main deck, I currently fun an etra abrade/spray and bring those in. I have flex back and forth between Struggle // Survive and harvester. GY hate is good against GPG decks and scarab god mirrors, and when I have them I bring them in against RRed, extra removal is just fine and getting those earthshakers out of their yard is fine as well.
Negate is a snap 4 and the same for Coup at 2 of, I can't see cutting them anytime soon.
Sweltering Sun is currently un needed. I was running Radiant Flames and cut them because the only games I ever really wanted it was against zombies, and Chandra, Flamecaller does just fine there. Zombies and Flamecaller will both be gone next week, I guess we will see what pops up if you really want to go that route but I feel that we have access to the best spot removal in the format, we have creatures that are pseudo removal and its just not really necessary. Double red on a 3 drop in a 3 color deck can also be problematic.
I like Vraska, I think its probably only good in grindy matchups. Against aggro decks it doesn't do enough to help win the game faster. On second thought though its maybe better than the Slice in Twain I mentioned a few posts ago, so if I am in black for Scarab God I can see wanting Vraska in the side and its at least worth trying. Chandra is fine. I don't run them anymore myself but its just a preference so play them if you want them. Its not really ever going to be a bad card.
Dispel is probably a 2 of, you don't want to go too deep on them. Having multiples can feel bad, its a card when you want it you want it and sometimes you just want anything other than it. 2 is usually a sweet spot for a card like that and sometimes even just 1 does the trick.
Forget about Legacy for now. That was just a forethought and unless you are switching to a base black deck it won't work. The black splash won't support BB, and you won't have B early enough to even play duress.
It sounds a little janky but I an a fan of Blossoming Defense and Heroic Intervention. Though they will get worse against settle the wreckage. I would probably never run Blossoming defense in temur, as its mostly a tool for more aggressive strategies but Intervention is interesting. Unfortunately its a little more narrow now and if Hour of Devastation decks make a rise in numbers its unplayable. But it can act as negate 5 and 6 against some decks, and against suns it protects against spot removal and fumigate.
I'm not down on ripjaw raptor yet either. I think I want 2 in the main and one more in the board. Its terrible against suns, but should be great in other spots. I'm not replacing Hydra with it though, and fitting it into a Scarab God shell is difficult, although activating Scarab God on your dead raptor sounds greeeat. Its possible it is just a sideboard card or not a card for temur energy at all, but its one of those cards that will take me failing at a few times before I can write it off.
Shaper's Sanctuary is another possible inclusion and lines up kind of like evolutionary leap did a few standards ago. Sanctuary has the potential to be better in certain situations having to only pay G and no activation cost. I'm high on that card right now as well. Irrelevant to temur probably, but it puts Blossoming Defense on steroids. I think I am seeing this interaction correctly but maybe I'm not. They target your creature with removal and you have sanctuary in play, draw trigger happens, you respond with Defense keep your creature and get a card. And maybe this creature is something they really need gone and target it in response to Defense and now you draw again. You don't even care, you have created a 2 card advantage over your opponent and it only cost you one measly G. If it/those are the only card(s)you draw from it all game it was worth it.
Anyhow I got a little long winded there. I'm not too hyped for the majority of the new cards but in a few weeks I'm sure things will shake up a little bit. It should be interesting.
Thx for the advice:
Here is my opinion on the deck we will see in the couple of weeks and my choice of sideboard for it:
RDW:( on the draw is a tough matchup for us) its really 50/50
IN: the only card i can think of is aethersphere harvester (2 of), and confiscation coop (to steal red god and doing the extra dmg we need to killed them)
OUT: Glorybringer (too slow and chandra defeat), scarab god (too slow for late game)
Mirror: (50/50, the best draw win, if they dont splash black we have a better matchup because we got scarab god)
U/W control (bad matchup, trust me U/W got more tools) 40/60:
In: 4x negate, dispel (perfect counter to settle the wreckage) and duress, vraska x2/chandra
Out: Abrade, harnessed lightning
Vampires/Tokens (slightly favorable matchup, it depend how much procession they can cast in a game) 55/45:
In: 4x negate, duress, vraska x2 (chandra here is wrthless), (usually they play settle the wreckage, but dont bring dispel, they dont have enough instant spell)
Out: Abrade/harnesses lightning (killing single token is useless and not cost effective)
Dinos (usually same sideboard as Mirror), favorable matchup in my opinion 60/40:
In: Confiscation coup x2, aethersphere Harvester (they usually dont have flying creatures), vraska x2 (killed dyno without triggering enrage)
Out: Abrade, harnessed lightning (our creature should be bigger, thanks to longtusk cub/hydra)
Pirates/merfolk, favorable matchup 60/40:
In: In my opinion nothing (we have spot removal, bigger creatures etc.)
Out: Nothing
In: Vraska x 2, chandra
Out: Abrade (3dmg is not enough to deal with drake or serpent)
So in the final Sideboard should be:
4x Negate (that is for sure)
2x Confiscation coup (that is for sure, best card against any midrange and too deal with oppponent god)
2x Aetherspehere Harvester (meta call, but it should be there)
2x Vraska/Chandra (choice should be debate between them) (good in dino,mirror,control.... Pretty sure 2 is the perfect number)
3x Duress (dealing with enchantment(procession) /second sun /sweeper (fumigate/settle) etc.)
2x Dispel (settle, any other instant, backup to our negate against second sun deck)
Oh, also Spell pierce for the SB plan. Its not as narrow as dispel and may just be better.
Spell pierce is really a trash card for us. Its terrible late game, and can easily be played around. Spell pierce is only good in aggro/tempo deck (like pirate, or merlfok if it ever become a standard deck one day)
Possibly, but against something like approach that is what you are looking to make, a tempo play. Mike Sigrist made a good argument for it on Channel Fireball. It can be far more punishing than Dispel.
Thank for the tips, Dispel might really be a game changer in the next few weeks, People really underestimated settle the wreckage. In my opinion U/W control will be the best control deck. Carnage tyrant going to be played a lot in sideboard (dino, green/White ramp/Temur Energy etc.) And the best way to deal with it is Fumigate and settle the wreckage, and guess is double white each, so primary color for control will be U/W for sure, maybe with some black splash for scarab god.
A lot of U/W control are playing 3-4 settle main, then can cycle it via Chart a course if they dont need it. Trust me U/W is really in a good position, their only bad matchup is RDW, and RDW going to get obliterate by dino/ pirate / vampire token deck with lifelink.
Lost legacy is the best answerd against them, but you need to cast it a the right time, they have to be tapout. Its their only wincon.
The problem with lost legacy is its only good against second sun deck, and you cant play 1-2 copy, you need at least 3 to have a good chance of drawing it earlier, because in late game it get counter so easily.
The most impirtant things right now is the sideboard for Temur. Here is my suggestion:
aetherspehere haverster x 2 = aginast RDW, lifelink is a must
Negate x4 = best sideboard card ever, needed for board swipe/second sun/annointed procession (life changer if it get counter)
Confiscation coup x2 = Best card against mirror/Dino (any midrange deck), can steal opponent God
Sweltering sun x 2 (this card im not so sure) = great against pirate/vampire tokens/RDW?
Vraska/Chandra x 2??? = Against control to keep a token generator/destroy opponent cast out/destroy big creatures?
Dispel x 4 ??? = Against RDW (protect our harvester from abrade) somany instant in rdw, against control settle wreckage and counter backup, perfect for us only 1 mana, can really trick our opponent, and can also counter backup our negate against second sun
Lost legacy x 3/4 ??? = against second sun deck
Please your tought?
I do agree that UW is probably well positioned, its just that Temur isn't going to be an easy win for them. I have actually started getting the pieces I need for it myself because I have been wanting to play a control deck and that hasn't been possible for a while, looks fun. On a side note Chart A Course is a really weird inclusion for Approach and I can't imagine running it over opt. Chart is card advantage for a tempo deck, and unless you are playing gearhulks there is no reason to be pitching cards for 2 mana when you can spend 1 on an opt and be able to play it on the opponents turn. But this isn't U/W approach thread so I digress.
Lost Legacy is a terrible magic card to be forced into playing. I strongly dislike those effects, because most likely there will be a sideboard plan with an alt win con, more so if Legacy becomes a thing. Spending turn three doing potentially nothing can be back breaking and if I find myself "needing" it, I would probably be inclined to just play approach myself. Duress and Negate together in the sideboard, that's somewhere I don't mind being however. Duress is versatile and can actually help you win games without whole turns of do-nothing.
For your sideboard thoughts
Harvester is fine. I have cut mine, and bring them back if I expect an excess of RRed. You don't have to have it against them, it just makes life a little bit easier. Whirlers and Hydras and Glorybringser and Skysoverign are all great against them and that is all in the main deck, I currently fun an etra abrade/spray and bring those in. I have flex back and forth between Struggle // Survive and harvester. GY hate is good against GPG decks and scarab god mirrors, and when I have them I bring them in against RRed, extra removal is just fine and getting those earthshakers out of their yard is fine as well.
Negate is a snap 4 and the same for Coup at 2 of, I can't see cutting them anytime soon.
Sweltering Sun is currently un needed. I was running Radiant Flames and cut them because the only games I ever really wanted it was against zombies, and Chandra, Flamecaller does just fine there. Zombies and Flamecaller will both be gone next week, I guess we will see what pops up if you really want to go that route but I feel that we have access to the best spot removal in the format, we have creatures that are pseudo removal and its just not really necessary. Double red on a 3 drop in a 3 color deck can also be problematic.
I like Vraska, I think its probably only good in grindy matchups. Against aggro decks it doesn't do enough to help win the game faster. On second thought though its maybe better than the Slice in Twain I mentioned a few posts ago, so if I am in black for Scarab God I can see wanting Vraska in the side and its at least worth trying. Chandra is fine. I don't run them anymore myself but its just a preference so play them if you want them. Its not really ever going to be a bad card.
Dispel is probably a 2 of, you don't want to go too deep on them. Having multiples can feel bad, its a card when you want it you want it and sometimes you just want anything other than it. 2 is usually a sweet spot for a card like that and sometimes even just 1 does the trick.
Forget about Legacy for now. That was just a forethought and unless you are switching to a base black deck it won't work. The black splash won't support BB, and you won't have B early enough to even play duress.
It sounds a little janky but I an a fan of Blossoming Defense and Heroic Intervention. Though they will get worse against settle the wreckage. I would probably never run Blossoming defense in temur, as its mostly a tool for more aggressive strategies but Intervention is interesting. Unfortunately its a little more narrow now and if Hour of Devastation decks make a rise in numbers its unplayable. But it can act as negate 5 and 6 against some decks, and against suns it protects against spot removal and fumigate.
I'm not down on ripjaw raptor yet either. I think I want 2 in the main and one more in the board. Its terrible against suns, but should be great in other spots. I'm not replacing Hydra with it though, and fitting it into a Scarab God shell is difficult, although activating Scarab God on your dead raptor sounds greeeat. Its possible it is just a sideboard card or not a card for temur energy at all, but its one of those cards that will take me failing at a few times before I can write it off.
Shaper's Sanctuary is another possible inclusion and lines up kind of like evolutionary leap did a few standards ago. Sanctuary has the potential to be better in certain situations having to only pay G and no activation cost. I'm high on that card right now as well. Irrelevant to temur probably, but it puts Blossoming Defense on steroids. I think I am seeing this interaction correctly but maybe I'm not. They target your creature with removal and you have sanctuary in play, draw trigger happens, you respond with Defense keep your creature and get a card. And maybe this creature is something they really need gone and target it in response to Defense and now you draw again. You don't even care, you have created a 2 card advantage over your opponent and it only cost you one measly G. If it/those are the only card(s)you draw from it all game it was worth it.
Anyhow I got a little long winded there. I'm not too hyped for the majority of the new cards but in a few weeks I'm sure things will shake up a little bit. It should be interesting.
Thx for the advice:
Here is my opinion on the deck we will see in the couple of weeks and my choice of sideboard for it:
RDW:( on the draw is a tough matchup for us) its really 50/50
IN: the only card i can think of is aethersphere harvester (2 of), and confiscation coop (to steal red god and doing the extra dmg we need to killed them)
OUT: Glorybringer (too slow and chandra defeat), scarab god (too slow for late game)
Mirror: (50/50, the best draw win, if they dont splash black we have a better matchup because we got scarab god)
U/W control (bad matchup, trust me U/W got more tools) 40/60:
In: 4x negate, dispel (perfect counter to settle the wreckage) and duress, vraska x2/chandra
Out: Abrade, harnessed lightning
Vampires/Tokens (slightly favorable matchup, it depend how much procession they can cast in a game) 55/45:
In: 4x negate, duress, vraska x2 (chandra here is wrthless), (usually they play settle the wreckage, but dont bring dispel, they dont have enough instant spell)
Out: Abrade/harnesses lightning (killing single token is useless and not cost effective)
Dinos (usually same sideboard as Mirror), favorable matchup in my opinion 60/40:
In: Confiscation coup x2, aethersphere Harvester (they usually dont have flying creatures), vraska x2 (killed dyno without triggering enrage)
Out: Abrade, harnessed lightning (our creature should be bigger, thanks to longtusk cub/hydra)
Pirates/merfolk, favorable matchup 60/40:
In: In my opinion nothing (we have spot removal, bigger creatures etc.)
Out: Nothing
In: Vraska x 2, chandra
Out: Abrade (3dmg is not enough to deal with drake or serpent)
So in the final Sideboard should be:
4x Negate (that is for sure)
2x Confiscation coup (that is for sure, best card against any midrange and too deal with oppponent god)
2x Aetherspehere Harvester (meta call, but it should be there)
2x Vraska/Chandra (choice should be debate between them) (good in dino,mirror,control.... Pretty sure 2 is the perfect number)
3x Duress (dealing with enchantment(procession) /second sun /sweeper (fumigate/settle) etc.)
2x Dispel (settle, any other instant, backup to our negate against second sun deck)
You can't play duress in a splash black deck. How many black sources are you running? If you are just running a swamp like Scarab God lists are you can't reliably cast it early on when you want to. You can splash Scarab God because its a late game play, and you can wait to get to your black source. Are you going to attune on turn one to get your swamp and play it on 2 then potentially missing red or blue on 3, you have 8 3 drops and 3 colors spread among them, you are going to become way too clunky. I brought duress up as a hypothetical suggestion if the meta would shift energy into wanting to play a golgari or sultai build, and that is not something I think is too far fetched. But for now I think Temur is the right choice. Until that changes you are jamming duress into your board at your own risk.
I can't believe it took so long for someone to notice that Dispel is rotating out of standard this week.
The discussion about Approach deck is a good one though. From my experience this deck is cancer and basically unbeatable unless they get mana screwed. This deck is 3 "I win" cards, mass removal, Cast Outs, counter spells and card draw. When they get to 4 mana it's game over. I really have no idea how to fight it. The old school control decks based on Gearhulks could have been defeated by graveyard hate but the UW Approach doesn't care about what you are doing.
I thought that Carnage Tyrant will be a solution but it's not. Like someone said earlier it just gets Fumigated before it's out of summoning sickness. Maybe siding in more planeswalkers is a good idea? Though this deck can easily win even through Chandra ult, because of Approach's +7 life.
Maybe siding in haste creatures like Lathnu Hellion?
Honestly I think it's only a matter of time before Approach takes over standard meta game and we (Temur players) can't do much about it.
What do we do? At this point I'd advocate "wait for the meta to do its work". Ramunap red seems really strong, and should be going low enough to the ground that they can really keep UW approach in check. Mono-White Monument isn't vanishing and can go super wide without commiting tons of cards. GB Snake also has plenty of tools to work with to force kills early, plus they have easy access to Lost Legacy to really defang that deck.
Doomsaying that the sky is falling might be the trendy thing to do. But I think it's rather premature until we start seeing proof that people actually are playing it. If we see diehard aggro players picking up a lockdown control deck, then sure we have reason to worry. But until then I'm reserving judgment.
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Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
so out of curiosity, are we waiting until after this weekend to post lists? i pretty much haven't touched mine for a month or so and have no idea what to do for the new rotation.
there are a few pptqs that i want to try out and i feel it'll be won by either temur or control.
Hmm ya I forgot what block Dispel was in. Spell pierce is probably more playable than most are thinking though and negate is already the go to. I'm still not 100% convinced Approach is so terrible. I was beating it in Amonket standard, and I know it got some new toys but I remain optimistic. I have an event this weekend coming up that I will be testing heavily for starting today and approach will be my first trial. Even if the matchup is abysmal I think its unlikely that the deck becomes an oppressive force that shuts down the meta. I still think temur is the deck to play week one and I'll stick to that. If approach does get too big like someone else said GB should make a comeback. It beats RRed, and should be fast enough to go well under approach if tuned for it. If approach checks temur and other midrange decks, RRed should check approach, GB checks RRed(maybe), and its still week zero so we should have some number of unknown variables, then we may be in for a rather healthy standard environment. That sounds good to me, I won't have to play the same deck every week anymore.
so out of curiosity, are we waiting until after this weekend to post lists? i pretty much haven't touched mine for a month or so and have no idea what to do for the new rotation.
there are a few pptqs that i want to try out and i feel it'll be won by either temur or control.
I'm considering coming back to temur energy from G/B Snek. I'd love for more people to share current lists!
This is the list I have been working on. The main is pretty set for me as its almost the same list I have been running I have just made the switch to Scarab God. I would like one more green source though. The sideboard isn't set in stone either, I wouldn't mind a spell pierce or 2.
This is the list I have been working on. The main is pretty set for me as its almost the same list I have been running I have just made the switch to Scarab God. I would like one more green source though. The sideboard isn't set in stone either, I wouldn't mind a spell pierce or 2.
I like it, but I´ve made other list with 2 Hostage Taker , 1 less Hydra, 1 less Glorybringer , 1 less virtuoso and without Abrade. I add 2 chandras too.
I like Hostage Taker and its definitely the kind of card we want to play. I have thought about playing it as well, it would probably take virtuoso becoming somewhat unneeded for me to shift that way but I don't think you're wrong at all and it seems solid. I'm not sure I would go abrade-less, I feel like that 75 wants the full 4 for now. Chandra is fine as well. I value the 4th Hydra and Glorybringer over her currently but I think Chandra is just a matter of personal preference as its a great card.
This is the list I have been working on. The main is pretty set for me as its almost the same list I have been running I have just made the switch to Scarab God. I would like one more green source though. The sideboard isn't set in stone either, I wouldn't mind a spell pierce or 2.
I like it, but I´ve made other list with 2 Hostage Taker , 1 less Hydra, 1 less Glorybringer , 1 less virtuoso and without Abrade. I add 2 chandras too.
3 longtusk cub: ??? This is one of the best card in our deck, its the besr racing card, you need 4 minimum
2 magma spray/2 abrade: this really depend on the meta, if you think mardu vehicule is going to be popular i suggest Abrade, magma spray good against RDW and RB aggro
Sideboard:
2 skysovereign : ??? not sure this card is really good in the present meta, you are going to side in vs what? Control?? no (negate come in), RDW (nope way too slow), Dino (doesnt do *****), mirror (cant deal with cub/hydra/glorybringer), Abrade so popular.... this card need to go
2 ripjaw raptor : only good against RDW , and vs them we need life, raptor doesnt bring life, against all other deck its suck, even against mirror 4/5 against cub and hydra its worthless
3 shaper sancturay : ???? really....... are you serious, this card is only good in opening hand, in late game its a dead card. Sorry man there is way better card than this for temur Energy
Here is my upgraded sideboard list for the next week
4x negate = any temur player should pay 4 of them automatic, non negotiable, its the best sideboard card hands down
4x spell pierce = Meta calls it, Dispel is rotating. U/W control will be there and you need lots lots of counter for fumigate/settle the wreckage/second sun. Those 11-12 card are simply the best card available on standard that wreck our deck in half. Usually if more than 2-3 card of those resolve its GG, simple as that
3x cartouche of ambition = Yes my friend yes, we all forgot about that card. This is the best answerd against RWD Hands down, aethersphere is a nogo, rdw usually play 3-4 copies of abrade, so our vehicule is worthless, against RB its a little bit less efficient because of unliscensed disitegration. So be careful to play around it, usually cast it on your hydra with backup hexproof and you are good to go. Red/Black cant deal with enchantment except via discard, and usually they dont bring duress against us.
2x confiscation coop = Meta call here, good against Mirror,Dino and god pharraon gift deck thats about it, useless agains aggro and control
2x vraska = Ok let me tell you something....this card is underated big time. It is really good that good let me show you a few exemple:
U/W control play cast out on my glorybringer in my attack phase before dmg. Now its my turn i play vraska destroy the cast out proceed to attack with my dragon for 4 dmg. opponent take 4. Next turn he is all excited show me is second sun for the win because he see im tapout because of vraska proceed to cast for victory then in response i crack my treasure for a blue and then proceed to cast spell pierce. this is my friend the best feeling ever. Then i proceed to lethal the next turn.
Dont forget vraska give a tresure perfect for spell pirce backup. PLus she is goos against control a steady pressure with pirate, ultimate is so easy to reach. And dealing one dmg is really simple with scarab god ability on upkeep
She can destroy ripjaw raptor without a swet, god pharraon gift all those hard to deal enchantment like procession etc. The only time she is bad is against aggro and tempo deck.
Pay attention to those hate cards:
-Settle the wreckage
-fumigate
-Approach of the second sun
-Authority of the consul
-annointed procession
-and the other enchantment that cant get you energy counter
If you realized all those card are from white
Good matchup: RDW, Dinos, pirate, gift deck
even matchup: mirror, U/W (post side if you have 8 counters in sideboard)
Bad Matchup: RB aggro, U/W (if you dont have 8 counter in side), mardu vehicule (can easily win the race and shut us down with white hate card post side), B/W token (no matter how hard we try they always have plenty of lifelink token, and all the white hate card post side)
Trust me playing white is a good start to get rid of us and any aggro deck
This is the list I have been working on. The main is pretty set for me as its almost the same list I have been running I have just made the switch to Scarab God. I would like one more green source though. The sideboard isn't set in stone either, I wouldn't mind a spell pierce or 2.
I like it, but I´ve made other list with 2 Hostage Taker , 1 less Hydra, 1 less Glorybringer , 1 less virtuoso and without Abrade. I add 2 chandras too.
3 longtusk cub: ??? This is one of the best card in our deck, its the besr racing card, you need 4 minimum
2 magma spray/2 abrade: this really depend on the meta, if you think mardu vehicule is going to be popular i suggest Abrade, magma spray good against RDW and RB aggro
Sideboard:
2 skysovereign : ??? not sure this card is really good in the present meta, you are going to side in vs what? Control?? no (negate come in), RDW (nope way too slow), Dino (doesnt do *****), mirror (cant deal with cub/hydra/glorybringer), Abrade so popular.... this card need to go
2 ripjaw raptor : only good against RDW , and vs them we need life, raptor doesnt bring life, against all other deck its suck, even against mirror 4/5 against cub and hydra its worthless
3 shaper sancturay : ???? really....... are you serious, this card is only good in opening hand, in late game its a dead card. Sorry man there is way better card than this for temur Energy
Here is my upgraded sideboard list for the next week
4x negate = any temur player should pay 4 of them automatic, non negotiable, its the best sideboard card hands down
4x spell pierce = Meta calls it, Dispel is rotating. U/W control will be there and you need lots lots of counter for fumigate/settle the wreckage/second sun. Those 11-12 card are simply the best card available on standard that wreck our deck in half. Usually if more than 2-3 card of those resolve its GG, simple as that
3x cartouche of ambition = Yes my friend yes, we all forgot about that card. This is the best answerd against RWD Hands down, aethersphere is a nogo, rdw usually play 3-4 copies of abrade, so our vehicule is worthless, against RB its a little bit less efficient because of unliscensed disitegration. So be careful to play around it, usually cast it on your hydra with backup hexproof and you are good to go. Red/Black cant deal with enchantment except via discard, and usually they dont bring duress against us.
2x confiscation coop = Meta call here, good against Mirror,Dino and god pharraon gift deck thats about it, useless agains aggro and control
2x vraska = Ok let me tell you something....this card is underated big time. It is really good that good let me show you a few exemple:
U/W control play cast out on my glorybringer in my attack phase before dmg. Now its my turn i play vraska destroy the cast out proceed to attack with my dragon for 4 dmg. opponent take 4. Next turn he is all excited show me is second sun for the win because he see im tapout because of vraska proceed to cast for victory then in response i crack my treasure for a blue and then proceed to cast spell pierce. this is my friend the best feeling ever. Then i proceed to lethal the next turn.
Dont forget vraska give a tresure perfect for spell pirce backup. PLus she is goos against control a steady pressure with pirate, ultimate is so easy to reach. And dealing one dmg is really simple with scarab god ability on upkeep
She can destroy ripjaw raptor without a swet, god pharraon gift all those hard to deal enchantment like procession etc. The only time she is bad is against aggro and tempo deck.
First an update to the sideboard
-3 Shaper's Sanctuary
+1 Ripjaw Raptor
+2 Spell Pierce
* This is a list in progress, if there is a card there that seems out of place maybe its because I'm, you know, testing it........
2 skysovereign : ??? not sure this card is really good in the present meta, you are going to side in vs what? Control?? no (negate come in), RDW (nope way too slow), Dino (doesnt do *****), mirror (cant deal with cub/hydra/glorybringer), Abrade so popular.... this card need to go
Skysovereign is an absolute house in most matches, I know this from playing the deck for the past 2 months. Most lists I have been seeing, including the one that 5-0 on MTGO yesterday ran 1 in the main. The main board is tight, so I pushed mine to the board, and the only match that I ever used to side them out was against control, I fail to see how its bad against the meta, sure you side it out against approach, show me where its bad and why.
2 ripjaw raptor : only good against RDW , and vs them we need life, raptor doesnt bring life, against all other deck its suck, even against mirror 4/5 against cub and hydra its worthless
Ripjaw is probably one of the best new cards we get. Its a decent replacement for tireless tracker, which was a card boarded in almost every game, except against red decks. I don't think you are evaluating this card properly, its a 4/5 for 4 that draws you cards, its for grindy matches and in testing it has performed well. You could say that there are other cards that need to be pushed into the sideboard, and that would be acceptable, but this card isn't as worthless as you think. It's not there for RDW either, maybe you side it in there sure, but it comes in any grindy matchup and does work. You're opponent either plays around it, value, or kills it for card/s, value.
3 shaper sancturay : ???? really....... are you serious, this card is only good in opening hand, in late game its a dead card. Sorry man there is way better card than this for temur Energy
Again, I am testing, so yes I am very serious. Cards like this have potential to take over a game, and I have been testing it, I have cut it because it has underperformed in the couple matches I have actually been able to use it, and I think a couple spell pierce will out value it for now. You can mock it now, but mark my words, you will see this card played at some point during its time in standard, but its going to be at its best against control decks utilizing a lot of spot removal. I thought maybe it could help in grindy matches and mirrors but it seems to be too easily played around for now and I could be wrong about that. And no kidding its a bad top deck, that's why you run 3 in the board, you want to make sure you see it early.
3 longtusk cub: ??? This is one of the best card in our deck, its the besr racing card, you need 4 minimum
Its one of out only cards that doesn't 2 for 1. I have been playing 3 for a month since I added a Rhonas. Yes sometimes you get to race with it, most of the time that doesn't happen and there was a time it wasn't even played in the deck. If I didn't feel 4 whirlers were needed I would cut one for a cub. however virtuoso is key in RDW games, and is more essential that sideboard lifegain cards that set you up to be 2 for 1'd.
2 magma spray/2 abrade: this really depend on the meta, if you think mardu vehicule is going to be popular i suggest Abrade, magma spray good against RDW and RB aggro
Brad Nelson disagrees with you. So do I, even if Mardu is prevalent magma spray answers all of their non artifact creatures for 1 red, and exiles scrapheap scrounger. Ever magma spray a Champion of Wits? Feels pretty good. Even in most bad games that you side them out there will be a target, and keeps them maindeckable.
You realize this is a midrange deck right, that should have a variety of answers and out to hedge against the majority of the field?
4 spell pierce is probably very likely to be very wrong.
I don't like the cartouch, I can see it as a 2 of in the board but I prefer to keep myself out of burn range by clogging the board against RDW, and clocking them with big creatures that double as removal, Glorybringer, Skysoverign.
I have play plenty of time with this deck against various deck.
4x spell pierce is necessary for the following reason. U/W control, 4 negate is not enough. They can dig faster than you. the first one might catch them by surprise, but they are ready for the second one. It doesnt matter for them casting second sun with negate backup. I have see that a lot of time. Are you gonna negate the fumigate/settle?? i guess not, because if you do better be ready for that second cast of second sun for GG. With 8 counter we have enough to deal with mass removal + second sun.
RDW and B/R aggro. You dont get whirler everyggame, i know he is the best creature against them, but without him you usually stabilize at around 7-9 life. Then their god appear and ping you 2 dmg every turn. Usually you have 2-3 turn max to kill them before they do without lifelink we usually dies even if we stabilize the board. We have 0 way to deal with their god except confication coup, but this card is awful against them. So we need some life badly. I have play so many time with aethersphere and it usually die 80% of the time before it did some lifelink, because of abrade every rdw and B/R usually play 4 copies of.
With the cartouche RDW cant do ***** if it stick on a cub (with enough energy to survive some burn) of even better an Hydra + it kill their creature and grant you a +1/+1 bonus life on your creature. For now its the best option available for life hands down.
Skysovereign: How can this be good against rdw or B/R aggro. Usually on turn 5 you are at 7-9 life and your board is stabilize. Does it kill their god: No, does it get you life: no, does it kill on of their creature : yes, does it matter at this time: no. Because you already have control now. So what you do next turn you attack....and then response : Abrade + 2 dmg for the face from god. Next turn you start attacking do some dmg, next turn your dead. What did soveriegn did?? well guess what nothing. I play one main, and usually its the first card i side out the majority of time
Shaper santuary : like i said this card is bad...really bad.....you will realize it soon enough
Ripjaw Raptor : it might see some play against RDW and mirror/dino but thats about it. All deck with a splash of white or black doesnt care.
I like what @WhiteCobra3 is saying about the black cartouche. Usually landing one is lights out for RR, so having 3 in the SB will helps you immensely G2 and G3. That's what is pushing me to a black splash. For spell pierce, 2 should be enough in the SB. 4 is too much. You still want action and be able to pressure. Ideally we want 8 cards for control in the SB, siding out all the red removals. I'm boarding in 4 negate, 2 spell pierce and 2 Nissa, Vital force. She will ping 5 damages per turn and she does not care about settle the wreckage nor Fumigate. What do you guys think about her ?
I see that you guys are having arguments about Skysovereign. Is it good or not in the meta ? My guess is that it's good against the mirror, RDW and even Dino. It will kill most of the support dino and the tokens, Whirler virtuoso, Rogue refiner and any red creatures. What's also important is the 6/5 body that can attack through glorybringer and helps you close the game really fast. I'm conflicted between the boat and other great 5CMC like Confiscation Coup. THe boat is great at closing the game. Yes abrade is in the format. It's true that most of the MTGO 5-0 lists featured 1 maindeck.
I like what @WhiteCobra3 is saying about the black cartouche. Usually landing one is lights out for RR, so having 3 in the SB will helps you immensely G2 and G3. That's what is pushing me to a black splash. For spell pierce, 2 should be enough in the SB. 4 is too much. You still want action and be able to pressure. Ideally we want 8 cards for control in the SB, siding out all the red removals. I'm boarding in 4 negate, 2 spell pierce and 2 Nissa, Vital force. She will ping 5 damages per turn and she does not care about settle the wreckage nor Fumigate. What do you guys think about her ?
I see that you guys are having arguments about Skysovereign. Is it good or not in the meta ? My guess is that it's good against the mirror, RDW and even Dino. It will kill most of the support dino and the tokens, Whirler virtuoso, Rogue refiner and any red creatures. What's also important is the 6/5 body that can attack through glorybringer and helps you close the game really fast. I'm conflicted between the boat and other great 5CMC like Confiscation Coup. THe boat is great at closing the game. Yes abrade is in the format. It's true that most of the MTGO 5-0 lists featured 1 maindeck.
Nissa is a fine card and I have it on my list of cards I want to work into the SB.
I have play plenty of time with this deck against various deck.
4x spell pierce is necessary for the following reason. U/W control, 4 negate is not enough. They can dig faster than you. the first one might catch them by surprise, but they are ready for the second one. It doesnt matter for them casting second sun with negate backup. I have see that a lot of time. Are you gonna negate the fumigate/settle?? i guess not, because if you do better be ready for that second cast of second sun for GG. With 8 counter we have enough to deal with mass removal + second sun.
RDW and B/R aggro. You dont get whirler everyggame, i know he is the best creature against them, but without him you usually stabilize at around 7-9 life. Then their god appear and ping you 2 dmg every turn. Usually you have 2-3 turn max to kill them before they do without lifelink we usually dies even if we stabilize the board. We have 0 way to deal with their god except confication coup, but this card is awful against them. So we need some life badly. I have play so many time with aethersphere and it usually die 80% of the time before it did some lifelink, because of abrade every rdw and B/R usually play 4 copies of.
With the cartouche RDW cant do ***** if it stick on a cub (with enough energy to survive some burn) of even better an Hydra + it kill their creature and grant you a +1/+1 bonus life on your creature. For now its the best option available for life hands down.
Skysovereign: How can this be good against rdw or B/R aggro. Usually on turn 5 you are at 7-9 life and your board is stabilize. Does it kill their god: No, does it get you life: no, does it kill on of their creature : yes, does it matter at this time: no. Because you already have control now. So what you do next turn you attack....and then response : Abrade + 2 dmg for the face from god. Next turn you start attacking do some dmg, next turn your dead. What did soveriegn did?? well guess what nothing. I play one main, and usually its the first card i side out the majority of time
Shaper santuary : like i said this card is bad...really bad.....you will realize it soon enough
Ripjaw Raptor : it might see some play against RDW and mirror/dino but thats about it. All deck with a splash of white or black doesnt care.
If you are leaning on 4 spell pierce to beat approach I think you're playing the matchup wrong. Spell pierce is a tempo play that allows you to keep your board alive against a boardwipe to apply enough pressure before they hit approach. In the last format negating Fumigate on 5 was usually good enough to finish the game, that gets a little more complicated with Wrath to Exile in the format and that is where spell pierce comes in. Its an extra out to play to, not a way to win the game. 4 of them is going to feel bad, especially after they play around it.
I have had zero problems with consistency against RDW without lifegain. I don't want a card like cartouch that I am ONLY bringing in that game. We have access to so much removal and ways to clog the board that it shouldn't be needed. Why are you keeping cubs in against RDW? Even on the play you aren't going to be pressuring them, you should be playing a control role at that point with your cheap removal. If you play cub its not going to block, and most likely is going to turn on their removal. The only creatures I would want to play it on would be Hydra or glorybringer. I can see that being good, but very narrow. I'm not saying its terrible in that matchup, but its the only one you will want it in and there are just other things you can/should be doing to win that game. Confiscation coup is not terrible there either, stealing their Hazoret is fine and its the only out we have to it. If I have to play 9 rounds against mono red sure I will pack some cartouch(s), but its not really what I want to be doing.
Skysovereign is a house against both of those decks. I know because I have played it against them, does it eat an abrade sometimes yes. Most of the time, no because they already ate their abrade on another creature. You say you have 3 turns to win against RDW most of the time, you realize Skysoverign does 18 damage over 3 turns (more with Rhonas pumps) and does gain you life by removing a threat each time. Sometimes you are going to be hit with a tempo loss and lose the game, that's magic. But the boat is something they have to answer, if they don't it doesn't just sit there staring them in the face. Its also good in mirrors and other mid-range games as it can block glorybringer and or break stalemates.
Sanctuary is not a bad card, it is going to take a certain meta for it to thrive though. That day will come...you'll see.
Ripjaw is value against any creature deck. A deck splashing black or white will care if they are creature decks. Temur is threat dense, if they are an aggro or midrange deck they will only have so much spot removal. If they destroy my Raptor, I will probably land a glorybringer sometime soon that they won't have removal for, or better yet they exiled my raptor instead of my Scarab God later? I'll take that. Its probably either raptor or Blasting Cannon in that spot, and for a deck like this I like to be able to overload on threats that have upside. Obviously you aren't bringing raptors in against UW approach.
3 shaper sancturay : ???? really....... are you serious, this card is only good in opening hand, in late game its a dead card. Sorry man there is way better card than this for temur Energy
Again, I am testing, so yes I am very serious. Cards like this have potential to take over a game, and I have been testing it, I have cut it because it has underperformed in the couple matches I have actually been able to use it, and I think a couple spell pierce will out value it for now. You can mock it now, but mark my words, you will see this card played at some point during its time in standard, but its going to be at its best against control decks utilizing a lot of spot removal. I thought maybe it could help in grindy matches and mirrors but it seems to be too easily played around for now and I could be wrong about that. And no kidding its a bad top deck, that's why you run 3 in the board, you want to make sure you see it early.
How would an opponent play around a relatively early Shapers' sanctuary? Are they going to not use removal on our creatures somehow? I think the card shows great potential. It seems to me however, either you get the card at the right moment (early game) or don't. I believe it's possible to play around, just curious how it would happen.
Edit: I'm so stoked people are posting more lists and getting some discussion going! I was really wanting to see some new lists for a while now. Anyone playing straight r/g still or sticking to a 3rd color splash at the least?
Also, Hostage taker! Is this a secret answer to Hazoret? (Or an obvious one that I'm missing?)
3 shaper sancturay : ???? really....... are you serious, this card is only good in opening hand, in late game its a dead card. Sorry man there is way better card than this for temur Energy
Again, I am testing, so yes I am very serious. Cards like this have potential to take over a game, and I have been testing it, I have cut it because it has underperformed in the couple matches I have actually been able to use it, and I think a couple spell pierce will out value it for now. You can mock it now, but mark my words, you will see this card played at some point during its time in standard, but its going to be at its best against control decks utilizing a lot of spot removal. I thought maybe it could help in grindy matches and mirrors but it seems to be too easily played around for now and I could be wrong about that. And no kidding its a bad top deck, that's why you run 3 in the board, you want to make sure you see it early.
How would an opponent play around a relatively early Shapers' sanctuary? Are they going to not use removal on our creatures somehow? I think the card shows great potential. It seems to me however, either you get the card at the right moment (early game) or don't. I believe it's possible to play around, just curious how it would happen.
Edit: I'm so stoked people are posting more lists and getting some discussion going! I was really wanting to see some new lists for a while now. Anyone playing straight r/g still or sticking to a 3rd color splash at the least?
Also, Hostage taker! Is this a secret answer to Hazoret? (Or an obvious one that I'm missing?)
The problem I had with Sanctuary was that the games I sided it in and had it early on enough I was not able to apply proper pressure, and this was in midrange matches. If you run into a board stall your opponent can just sit back and progress their own board as removing your creatures can become the worse line. When they can just trade in combat they aren't going to give you free cards. My sample size is relatively small in a small number of games played with it so is probably not solid and I'm not completely off the card. Maybe in those games had I been able to draw into more removal I could have cleared the board and forced more interaction. I'm going to try testing more with it today as I think there is still potential, but I do think its going to be more useful in control matches that utilize a lot of spot removal and I don't think the time for that is now. I'm sure at some point these are going to make it into my SB. In games like the one I mentioned Ripjaw would have been better as I could have applied some pressure and forced decisions as you can only allow yourself to be hit for 4 so many times.
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A lot of U/W control are playing 3-4 settle main, then can cycle it via Chart a course if they dont need it. Trust me U/W is really in a good position, their only bad matchup is RDW, and RDW going to get obliterate by dino/ pirate / vampire token deck with lifelink.
Lost legacy is the best answerd against them, but you need to cast it a the right time, they have to be tapout. Its their only wincon.
The problem with lost legacy is its only good against second sun deck, and you cant play 1-2 copy, you need at least 3 to have a good chance of drawing it earlier, because in late game it get counter so easily.
The most impirtant things right now is the sideboard for Temur. Here is my suggestion:
aetherspehere haverster x 2 = aginast RDW, lifelink is a must
Negate x4 = best sideboard card ever, needed for board swipe/second sun/annointed procession (life changer if it get counter)
Confiscation coup x2 = Best card against mirror/Dino (any midrange deck), can steal opponent God
Sweltering sun x 2 (this card im not so sure) = great against pirate/vampire tokens/RDW?
Vraska/Chandra x 2??? = Against control to keep a token generator/destroy opponent cast out/destroy big creatures?
Dispel x 4 ??? = Against RDW (protect our harvester from abrade) somany instant in rdw, against control settle wreckage and counter backup, perfect for us only 1 mana, can really trick our opponent, and can also counter backup our negate against second sun
Lost legacy x 3/4 ??? = against second sun deck
Please your tought?
I do agree that UW is probably well positioned, its just that Temur isn't going to be an easy win for them. I have actually started getting the pieces I need for it myself because I have been wanting to play a control deck and that hasn't been possible for a while, looks fun. On a side note Chart A Course is a really weird inclusion for Approach and I can't imagine running it over opt. Chart is card advantage for a tempo deck, and unless you are playing gearhulks there is no reason to be pitching cards for 2 mana when you can spend 1 on an opt and be able to play it on the opponents turn. But this isn't U/W approach thread so I digress.
Lost Legacy is a terrible magic card to be forced into playing. I strongly dislike those effects, because most likely there will be a sideboard plan with an alt win con, more so if Legacy becomes a thing. Spending turn three doing potentially nothing can be back breaking and if I find myself "needing" it, I would probably be inclined to just play approach myself. Duress and Negate together in the sideboard, that's somewhere I don't mind being however. Duress is versatile and can actually help you win games without whole turns of do-nothing.
For your sideboard thoughts
Harvester is fine. I have cut mine, and bring them back if I expect an excess of RRed. You don't have to have it against them, it just makes life a little bit easier. Whirlers and Hydras and Glorybringser and Skysoverign are all great against them and that is all in the main deck, I currently fun an etra abrade/spray and bring those in. I have flex back and forth between Struggle // Survive and harvester. GY hate is good against GPG decks and scarab god mirrors, and when I have them I bring them in against RRed, extra removal is just fine and getting those earthshakers out of their yard is fine as well.
Negate is a snap 4 and the same for Coup at 2 of, I can't see cutting them anytime soon.
Sweltering Sun is currently un needed. I was running Radiant Flames and cut them because the only games I ever really wanted it was against zombies, and Chandra, Flamecaller does just fine there. Zombies and Flamecaller will both be gone next week, I guess we will see what pops up if you really want to go that route but I feel that we have access to the best spot removal in the format, we have creatures that are pseudo removal and its just not really necessary. Double red on a 3 drop in a 3 color deck can also be problematic.
I like Vraska, I think its probably only good in grindy matchups. Against aggro decks it doesn't do enough to help win the game faster. On second thought though its maybe better than the Slice in Twain I mentioned a few posts ago, so if I am in black for Scarab God I can see wanting Vraska in the side and its at least worth trying. Chandra is fine. I don't run them anymore myself but its just a preference so play them if you want them. Its not really ever going to be a bad card.
Dispel is probably a 2 of, you don't want to go too deep on them. Having multiples can feel bad, its a card when you want it you want it and sometimes you just want anything other than it. 2 is usually a sweet spot for a card like that and sometimes even just 1 does the trick.
Forget about Legacy for now. That was just a forethought and unless you are switching to a base black deck it won't work. The black splash won't support BB, and you won't have B early enough to even play duress.
It sounds a little janky but I an a fan of Blossoming Defense and Heroic Intervention. Though they will get worse against settle the wreckage. I would probably never run Blossoming defense in temur, as its mostly a tool for more aggressive strategies but Intervention is interesting. Unfortunately its a little more narrow now and if Hour of Devastation decks make a rise in numbers its unplayable. But it can act as negate 5 and 6 against some decks, and against suns it protects against spot removal and fumigate.
I'm not down on ripjaw raptor yet either. I think I want 2 in the main and one more in the board. Its terrible against suns, but should be great in other spots. I'm not replacing Hydra with it though, and fitting it into a Scarab God shell is difficult, although activating Scarab God on your dead raptor sounds greeeat. Its possible it is just a sideboard card or not a card for temur energy at all, but its one of those cards that will take me failing at a few times before I can write it off.
Shaper's Sanctuary is another possible inclusion and lines up kind of like evolutionary leap did a few standards ago. Sanctuary has the potential to be better in certain situations having to only pay G and no activation cost. I'm high on that card right now as well. Irrelevant to temur probably, but it puts Blossoming Defense on steroids. I think I am seeing this interaction correctly but maybe I'm not. They target your creature with removal and you have sanctuary in play, draw trigger happens, you respond with Defense keep your creature and get a card. And maybe this creature is something they really need gone and target it in response to Defense and now you draw again. You don't even care, you have created a 2 card advantage over your opponent and it only cost you one measly G. If it/those are the only card(s)you draw from it all game it was worth it.
Anyhow I got a little long winded there. I'm not too hyped for the majority of the new cards but in a few weeks I'm sure things will shake up a little bit. It should be interesting.
Spell pierce is really a trash card for us. Its terrible late game, and can easily be played around. Spell pierce is only good in aggro/tempo deck (like pirate, or merlfok if it ever become a standard deck one day)
Thx for the advice:
Here is my opinion on the deck we will see in the couple of weeks and my choice of sideboard for it:
RDW:( on the draw is a tough matchup for us) its really 50/50
IN: the only card i can think of is aethersphere harvester (2 of), and confiscation coop (to steal red god and doing the extra dmg we need to killed them)
OUT: Glorybringer (too slow and chandra defeat), scarab god (too slow for late game)
Mirror: (50/50, the best draw win, if they dont splash black we have a better matchup because we got scarab god)
In: confiscation coup x2, maybe vraska x2/chandra
Out: Abrade
U/W control (bad matchup, trust me U/W got more tools) 40/60:
In: 4x negate, dispel (perfect counter to settle the wreckage) and duress, vraska x2/chandra
Out: Abrade, harnessed lightning
Vampires/Tokens (slightly favorable matchup, it depend how much procession they can cast in a game) 55/45:
In: 4x negate, duress, vraska x2 (chandra here is wrthless), (usually they play settle the wreckage, but dont bring dispel, they dont have enough instant spell)
Out: Abrade/harnesses lightning (killing single token is useless and not cost effective)
Dinos (usually same sideboard as Mirror), favorable matchup in my opinion 60/40:
In: Confiscation coup x2, aethersphere Harvester (they usually dont have flying creatures), vraska x2 (killed dyno without triggering enrage)
Out: Abrade, harnessed lightning (our creature should be bigger, thanks to longtusk cub/hydra)
Pirates/merfolk, favorable matchup 60/40:
In: In my opinion nothing (we have spot removal, bigger creatures etc.)
Out: Nothing
Enigma Drake/Serpent (UR), favorable matchup (60/40)
In: Vraska x 2, chandra
Out: Abrade (3dmg is not enough to deal with drake or serpent)
So in the final Sideboard should be:
4x Negate (that is for sure)
2x Confiscation coup (that is for sure, best card against any midrange and too deal with oppponent god)
2x Aetherspehere Harvester (meta call, but it should be there)
2x Vraska/Chandra (choice should be debate between them) (good in dino,mirror,control.... Pretty sure 2 is the perfect number)
3x Duress (dealing with enchantment(procession) /second sun /sweeper (fumigate/settle) etc.)
2x Dispel (settle, any other instant, backup to our negate against second sun deck)
Possibly, but against something like approach that is what you are looking to make, a tempo play. Mike Sigrist made a good argument for it on Channel Fireball. It can be far more punishing than Dispel.
You can't play duress in a splash black deck. How many black sources are you running? If you are just running a swamp like Scarab God lists are you can't reliably cast it early on when you want to. You can splash Scarab God because its a late game play, and you can wait to get to your black source. Are you going to attune on turn one to get your swamp and play it on 2 then potentially missing red or blue on 3, you have 8 3 drops and 3 colors spread among them, you are going to become way too clunky. I brought duress up as a hypothetical suggestion if the meta would shift energy into wanting to play a golgari or sultai build, and that is not something I think is too far fetched. But for now I think Temur is the right choice. Until that changes you are jamming duress into your board at your own risk.
What do we do? At this point I'd advocate "wait for the meta to do its work". Ramunap red seems really strong, and should be going low enough to the ground that they can really keep UW approach in check. Mono-White Monument isn't vanishing and can go super wide without commiting tons of cards. GB Snake also has plenty of tools to work with to force kills early, plus they have easy access to Lost Legacy to really defang that deck.
Doomsaying that the sky is falling might be the trendy thing to do. But I think it's rather premature until we start seeing proof that people actually are playing it. If we see diehard aggro players picking up a lockdown control deck, then sure we have reason to worry. But until then I'm reserving judgment.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
there are a few pptqs that i want to try out and i feel it'll be won by either temur or control.
I'm considering coming back to temur energy from G/B Snek. I'd love for more people to share current lists!
Here's something I'm considering.
4x Longtusk Cub
2x Servant of the conduit
4x Rogue Refiner
1x Rishkar, Peema renegade
2x Rhonas the Indomitable
2x Ripjaw Raptor
3x Bristling Hydra
4x Glorybringer
4x Attune with Aether
3x Abrade
4x Harnessed Lightning
4x Rootbound Crag
4x Botanical Sanctum
1x Spirebluff Canal
1x Sheltered Thicket
4x Aether Hub
4x Forest
3x Mountain
1x Island
3x Longtusk Cub
4x Servant of the conduit
4x Rogue Refiner
1x Rhonas the Indomitable
2x The Scarab God
4x Bristling Hydra
4x Glorybringer
4x Attune with Aether
2x Abrade
2x Magma Spray
4x Harnessed Lightning
3x Spirebluff Canal
2x Sheltered Thicket
2x Rootbound Crag
4x Aether Hub
3x Forest
2x Mountain
1x Island
1x Swamp
4x Negate
2x Skysovereign, Consul Flagship
2x Ripjaw Raptor
3x Shaper's Sanctuary
2x Abrade
2x Confiscation Coup
This is the list I have been working on. The main is pretty set for me as its almost the same list I have been running I have just made the switch to Scarab God. I would like one more green source though. The sideboard isn't set in stone either, I wouldn't mind a spell pierce or 2.
I like Hostage Taker and its definitely the kind of card we want to play. I have thought about playing it as well, it would probably take virtuoso becoming somewhat unneeded for me to shift that way but I don't think you're wrong at all and it seems solid. I'm not sure I would go abrade-less, I feel like that 75 wants the full 4 for now. Chandra is fine as well. I value the 4th Hydra and Glorybringer over her currently but I think Chandra is just a matter of personal preference as its a great card.
3 longtusk cub: ??? This is one of the best card in our deck, its the besr racing card, you need 4 minimum
2 magma spray/2 abrade: this really depend on the meta, if you think mardu vehicule is going to be popular i suggest Abrade, magma spray good against RDW and RB aggro
Sideboard:
2 skysovereign : ??? not sure this card is really good in the present meta, you are going to side in vs what? Control?? no (negate come in), RDW (nope way too slow), Dino (doesnt do *****), mirror (cant deal with cub/hydra/glorybringer), Abrade so popular.... this card need to go
2 ripjaw raptor : only good against RDW , and vs them we need life, raptor doesnt bring life, against all other deck its suck, even against mirror 4/5 against cub and hydra its worthless
3 shaper sancturay : ???? really....... are you serious, this card is only good in opening hand, in late game its a dead card. Sorry man there is way better card than this for temur Energy
Here is my upgraded sideboard list for the next week
4x negate = any temur player should pay 4 of them automatic, non negotiable, its the best sideboard card hands down
4x spell pierce = Meta calls it, Dispel is rotating. U/W control will be there and you need lots lots of counter for fumigate/settle the wreckage/second sun. Those 11-12 card are simply the best card available on standard that wreck our deck in half. Usually if more than 2-3 card of those resolve its GG, simple as that
3x cartouche of ambition = Yes my friend yes, we all forgot about that card. This is the best answerd against RWD Hands down, aethersphere is a nogo, rdw usually play 3-4 copies of abrade, so our vehicule is worthless, against RB its a little bit less efficient because of unliscensed disitegration. So be careful to play around it, usually cast it on your hydra with backup hexproof and you are good to go. Red/Black cant deal with enchantment except via discard, and usually they dont bring duress against us.
2x confiscation coop = Meta call here, good against Mirror,Dino and god pharraon gift deck thats about it, useless agains aggro and control
2x vraska = Ok let me tell you something....this card is underated big time. It is really good that good let me show you a few exemple:
U/W control play cast out on my glorybringer in my attack phase before dmg. Now its my turn i play vraska destroy the cast out proceed to attack with my dragon for 4 dmg. opponent take 4. Next turn he is all excited show me is second sun for the win because he see im tapout because of vraska proceed to cast for victory then in response i crack my treasure for a blue and then proceed to cast spell pierce. this is my friend the best feeling ever. Then i proceed to lethal the next turn.
Dont forget vraska give a tresure perfect for spell pirce backup. PLus she is goos against control a steady pressure with pirate, ultimate is so easy to reach. And dealing one dmg is really simple with scarab god ability on upkeep
She can destroy ripjaw raptor without a swet, god pharraon gift all those hard to deal enchantment like procession etc. The only time she is bad is against aggro and tempo deck.
Pay attention to those hate cards:
-Settle the wreckage
-fumigate
-Approach of the second sun
-Authority of the consul
-annointed procession
-and the other enchantment that cant get you energy counter
If you realized all those card are from white
Good matchup: RDW, Dinos, pirate, gift deck
even matchup: mirror, U/W (post side if you have 8 counters in sideboard)
Bad Matchup: RB aggro, U/W (if you dont have 8 counter in side), mardu vehicule (can easily win the race and shut us down with white hate card post side), B/W token (no matter how hard we try they always have plenty of lifelink token, and all the white hate card post side)
Trust me playing white is a good start to get rid of us and any aggro deck
First an update to the sideboard
-3 Shaper's Sanctuary
+1 Ripjaw Raptor
+2 Spell Pierce
* This is a list in progress, if there is a card there that seems out of place maybe its because I'm, you know, testing it........
2 skysovereign : ??? not sure this card is really good in the present meta, you are going to side in vs what? Control?? no (negate come in), RDW (nope way too slow), Dino (doesnt do *****), mirror (cant deal with cub/hydra/glorybringer), Abrade so popular.... this card need to go
Skysovereign is an absolute house in most matches, I know this from playing the deck for the past 2 months. Most lists I have been seeing, including the one that 5-0 on MTGO yesterday ran 1 in the main. The main board is tight, so I pushed mine to the board, and the only match that I ever used to side them out was against control, I fail to see how its bad against the meta, sure you side it out against approach, show me where its bad and why.
2 ripjaw raptor : only good against RDW , and vs them we need life, raptor doesnt bring life, against all other deck its suck, even against mirror 4/5 against cub and hydra its worthless
Ripjaw is probably one of the best new cards we get. Its a decent replacement for tireless tracker, which was a card boarded in almost every game, except against red decks. I don't think you are evaluating this card properly, its a 4/5 for 4 that draws you cards, its for grindy matches and in testing it has performed well. You could say that there are other cards that need to be pushed into the sideboard, and that would be acceptable, but this card isn't as worthless as you think. It's not there for RDW either, maybe you side it in there sure, but it comes in any grindy matchup and does work. You're opponent either plays around it, value, or kills it for card/s, value.
3 shaper sancturay : ???? really....... are you serious, this card is only good in opening hand, in late game its a dead card. Sorry man there is way better card than this for temur Energy
Again, I am testing, so yes I am very serious. Cards like this have potential to take over a game, and I have been testing it, I have cut it because it has underperformed in the couple matches I have actually been able to use it, and I think a couple spell pierce will out value it for now. You can mock it now, but mark my words, you will see this card played at some point during its time in standard, but its going to be at its best against control decks utilizing a lot of spot removal. I thought maybe it could help in grindy matches and mirrors but it seems to be too easily played around for now and I could be wrong about that. And no kidding its a bad top deck, that's why you run 3 in the board, you want to make sure you see it early.
3 longtusk cub: ??? This is one of the best card in our deck, its the besr racing card, you need 4 minimum
Its one of out only cards that doesn't 2 for 1. I have been playing 3 for a month since I added a Rhonas. Yes sometimes you get to race with it, most of the time that doesn't happen and there was a time it wasn't even played in the deck. If I didn't feel 4 whirlers were needed I would cut one for a cub. however virtuoso is key in RDW games, and is more essential that sideboard lifegain cards that set you up to be 2 for 1'd.
2 magma spray/2 abrade: this really depend on the meta, if you think mardu vehicule is going to be popular i suggest Abrade, magma spray good against RDW and RB aggro
Brad Nelson disagrees with you. So do I, even if Mardu is prevalent magma spray answers all of their non artifact creatures for 1 red, and exiles scrapheap scrounger. Ever magma spray a Champion of Wits? Feels pretty good. Even in most bad games that you side them out there will be a target, and keeps them maindeckable.
You realize this is a midrange deck right, that should have a variety of answers and out to hedge against the majority of the field?
4 spell pierce is probably very likely to be very wrong.
I don't like the cartouch, I can see it as a 2 of in the board but I prefer to keep myself out of burn range by clogging the board against RDW, and clocking them with big creatures that double as removal, Glorybringer, Skysoverign.
Vraska seems legit and probably playable though.
4x spell pierce is necessary for the following reason. U/W control, 4 negate is not enough. They can dig faster than you. the first one might catch them by surprise, but they are ready for the second one. It doesnt matter for them casting second sun with negate backup. I have see that a lot of time. Are you gonna negate the fumigate/settle?? i guess not, because if you do better be ready for that second cast of second sun for GG. With 8 counter we have enough to deal with mass removal + second sun.
RDW and B/R aggro. You dont get whirler everyggame, i know he is the best creature against them, but without him you usually stabilize at around 7-9 life. Then their god appear and ping you 2 dmg every turn. Usually you have 2-3 turn max to kill them before they do without lifelink we usually dies even if we stabilize the board. We have 0 way to deal with their god except confication coup, but this card is awful against them. So we need some life badly. I have play so many time with aethersphere and it usually die 80% of the time before it did some lifelink, because of abrade every rdw and B/R usually play 4 copies of.
With the cartouche RDW cant do ***** if it stick on a cub (with enough energy to survive some burn) of even better an Hydra + it kill their creature and grant you a +1/+1 bonus life on your creature. For now its the best option available for life hands down.
Skysovereign: How can this be good against rdw or B/R aggro. Usually on turn 5 you are at 7-9 life and your board is stabilize. Does it kill their god: No, does it get you life: no, does it kill on of their creature : yes, does it matter at this time: no. Because you already have control now. So what you do next turn you attack....and then response : Abrade + 2 dmg for the face from god. Next turn you start attacking do some dmg, next turn your dead. What did soveriegn did?? well guess what nothing. I play one main, and usually its the first card i side out the majority of time
Shaper santuary : like i said this card is bad...really bad.....you will realize it soon enough
Ripjaw Raptor : it might see some play against RDW and mirror/dino but thats about it. All deck with a splash of white or black doesnt care.
I see that you guys are having arguments about Skysovereign. Is it good or not in the meta ? My guess is that it's good against the mirror, RDW and even Dino. It will kill most of the support dino and the tokens, Whirler virtuoso, Rogue refiner and any red creatures. What's also important is the 6/5 body that can attack through glorybringer and helps you close the game really fast. I'm conflicted between the boat and other great 5CMC like Confiscation Coup. THe boat is great at closing the game. Yes abrade is in the format. It's true that most of the MTGO 5-0 lists featured 1 maindeck.
Nissa is a fine card and I have it on my list of cards I want to work into the SB.
If you are leaning on 4 spell pierce to beat approach I think you're playing the matchup wrong. Spell pierce is a tempo play that allows you to keep your board alive against a boardwipe to apply enough pressure before they hit approach. In the last format negating Fumigate on 5 was usually good enough to finish the game, that gets a little more complicated with Wrath to Exile in the format and that is where spell pierce comes in. Its an extra out to play to, not a way to win the game. 4 of them is going to feel bad, especially after they play around it.
I have had zero problems with consistency against RDW without lifegain. I don't want a card like cartouch that I am ONLY bringing in that game. We have access to so much removal and ways to clog the board that it shouldn't be needed. Why are you keeping cubs in against RDW? Even on the play you aren't going to be pressuring them, you should be playing a control role at that point with your cheap removal. If you play cub its not going to block, and most likely is going to turn on their removal. The only creatures I would want to play it on would be Hydra or glorybringer. I can see that being good, but very narrow. I'm not saying its terrible in that matchup, but its the only one you will want it in and there are just other things you can/should be doing to win that game. Confiscation coup is not terrible there either, stealing their Hazoret is fine and its the only out we have to it. If I have to play 9 rounds against mono red sure I will pack some cartouch(s), but its not really what I want to be doing.
Skysovereign is a house against both of those decks. I know because I have played it against them, does it eat an abrade sometimes yes. Most of the time, no because they already ate their abrade on another creature. You say you have 3 turns to win against RDW most of the time, you realize Skysoverign does 18 damage over 3 turns (more with Rhonas pumps) and does gain you life by removing a threat each time. Sometimes you are going to be hit with a tempo loss and lose the game, that's magic. But the boat is something they have to answer, if they don't it doesn't just sit there staring them in the face. Its also good in mirrors and other mid-range games as it can block glorybringer and or break stalemates.
Sanctuary is not a bad card, it is going to take a certain meta for it to thrive though. That day will come...you'll see.
Ripjaw is value against any creature deck. A deck splashing black or white will care if they are creature decks. Temur is threat dense, if they are an aggro or midrange deck they will only have so much spot removal. If they destroy my Raptor, I will probably land a glorybringer sometime soon that they won't have removal for, or better yet they exiled my raptor instead of my Scarab God later? I'll take that. Its probably either raptor or Blasting Cannon in that spot, and for a deck like this I like to be able to overload on threats that have upside. Obviously you aren't bringing raptors in against UW approach.
How would an opponent play around a relatively early Shapers' sanctuary? Are they going to not use removal on our creatures somehow? I think the card shows great potential. It seems to me however, either you get the card at the right moment (early game) or don't. I believe it's possible to play around, just curious how it would happen.
Edit: I'm so stoked people are posting more lists and getting some discussion going! I was really wanting to see some new lists for a while now. Anyone playing straight r/g still or sticking to a 3rd color splash at the least?
Also, Hostage taker! Is this a secret answer to Hazoret? (Or an obvious one that I'm missing?)
The problem I had with Sanctuary was that the games I sided it in and had it early on enough I was not able to apply proper pressure, and this was in midrange matches. If you run into a board stall your opponent can just sit back and progress their own board as removing your creatures can become the worse line. When they can just trade in combat they aren't going to give you free cards. My sample size is relatively small in a small number of games played with it so is probably not solid and I'm not completely off the card. Maybe in those games had I been able to draw into more removal I could have cleared the board and forced more interaction. I'm going to try testing more with it today as I think there is still potential, but I do think its going to be more useful in control matches that utilize a lot of spot removal and I don't think the time for that is now. I'm sure at some point these are going to make it into my SB. In games like the one I mentioned Ripjaw would have been better as I could have applied some pressure and forced decisions as you can only allow yourself to be hit for 4 so many times.