Do games get 'more random' due to the sheer advantage of drawing recall or time walk?
How much more important does artifact destruction become?
I have been slowly creeping up the power level in my cube (recently added Mana Drain), and wondering how much higher I should let it get. My players are usually afraid when I add a powerful card, and are afraid I might add power 9 and 'ruin' the cube - I'm not so sure.
I'm interested in small (very tight) cubes primarily, but any input would be appreciated.
If anyone had an unpowered cube and converted it to a powered one (or vice-versa) how did the 'feel' of your cube change? Did players have more fun?
I have slowly added power to my cube, and don't feel that it's overpowered and ruining the cube. Sol Ring and Library is still the two best cards...
Right now I have only added 4 moxes and Timetwister, and non of those are overpowered by any means. Recall is by far the best of the bunch, as it can win games with one blue mana. Time Walk aren't overpowered either imo. I think it's a bit undercostet, but its effect are often just free mana acceleration (that's ofcourse also really good, but not directly broken).
The people in my area, myself included, simply don't enjoy the feel of games when power is involved. They aren't necessarily the most powerful cards, but they just don't "feel" like magic to us. I've done two trial runs with power for a few months each time, and both times the people I play with just stated how unsatisfying playing with power (and Sol Ring, Library, etc) was. Nothing against those who choose to play power, as I can definitely understand the reasons for doing so, but it just doesn't sit well with the people around here.
I much prefer drafting with the best cards, including Library and Power. Sure they get free wins but it is also a nice sense of accomplishment beating turn 1 Library or Sol Ring. And with a smaller to midsize cube with all the broken stuff just about everyone will have at least 1 busted card in their deck so it sort of evens out.
Trying to remove the most powerful or unfun cards ever printed is a fool's errand that will lead to madness due to the subjective nature of things. The power 9 are neither the most powerful or least fun nine cards in the cube, so leaving just them out is just plain dumb.
The only good reason not to play with these cards is money.
Trying to remove the most powerful or unfun cards ever printed is a fool's errand that will lead to madness due to the subjective nature of things. The power 9 are neither the most powerful or least fun nine cards in the cube, so leaving just them out is just plain dumb.
The only good reason not to play with these cards is money.
True - with the exception of A. Recall. It's up there among Sol Ring, Library and Mind Twist imo.
When I play with my friends there's a non-written rule that you say "sorry mate" when you play Mind Twist. There's not a similar rule when you play a mox...
If you opt not to run the power 9, why stop there? They're not the most powerful cards in the cube, so therefore, removing the power 9 just makes the other cards even more powerful. Then, if you remove the other "broken" cards from the cube, you will still be left with a "best" card. Then what do you do? Remove that card too, and then the next most powerful after that? All cards need to be considered, and banning cards for powerlevel makes no sense... especially when the power 9 does not constitute the most powerful cards in the cube. To sum it up... play power.
The people in my area, myself included, simply don't enjoy the feel of games when power is involved. They aren't necessarily the most powerful cards, but they just don't "feel" like magic to us. I've done two trial runs with power for a few months each time, and both times the people I play with just stated how unsatisfying playing with power (and Sol Ring, Library, etc) was. Nothing against those who choose to play power, as I can definitely understand the reasons for doing so, but it just doesn't sit well with the people around here.
Agreed. This is also why I don't play with power. I actually like the progression of resources that most modern magic consists of. Plus, I don't like proxies so I don't have the inclination to purchase actual copies of the power 9. [ although, I do own Time Walk, Ancestral Recall and Library of Alexandria ]
To me the cube is all about the best of Magic whether it be power level, historical performance or experience of play. I think the P9 fit all those categories which is why I intend to proxy them and include them in my cube.
If you have a 360 card cube and you do 8 player drafts. If someone ever gets 4+ power pieces is that the other players don't know how to draft. It's still only 9 cards of at least 360. (1 in 40)
I've been playing with them since I build the cube and surprisingly the cards that mess people up aren't the ones in that 9 card list. (Gargadon with a Balance is useally gg)
They're nowhere near the most abusive of cube cards, and while powerful, they don't have the near the same impact that some other cards do.
I think that is why they also don't use the cards that are more abusive, like Sol Ring and Library. Hopefully nobody is arguing they are the best 9 cards in the cube.
What about Umezawa's Jitte, Balance, Sword of Fire and Ice, Recurring Nightmare, Mind Twist, Tinker, Strip Mine and Skullclamp? And once you remove all of those, what about the next 8 that become too powerful? And the next 8 after that? Just remove 'em all and don't play with any powerful cards? That's far less fun than using all broken cards.
Nothing is too good for the cube. All the cards are good, and some are better than others. That's how it will always be, not matter what cards you're using, or how many "broken" cards you remove.
What about Umezawa's Jitte, Balance, Sword of Fire and Ice, Recurring Nightmare, Mind Twist, Tinker, Strip Mine and Skullclamp? And once you remove all of those, what about the next 8 that become too powerful? And the next 8 after that? Just remove 'em all and don't play with any powerful cards? That's far less fun than using all broken cards.
Nothing is too good for the cube. All the cards are good, and some are better than others. That's how it will always be, not matter what cards you're using, or how many "broken" cards you remove.
Yeah but you can limit it to some extent. A common/uncommon cube is more balanced than a fully powered cube simply because it lacks the crazy overpowered bombs. Sure Loxodon Warhammer is strong in that environment but it is not on the same level as Library of Alexandria.
EDIT: I'm not saying I don't like to play with crazy bombs, because I do, just that I can see where the no power guys are coming from.
There are still some pretty insane cards that can find their way into a common / uncommon cube such as:
Mana Drain
Library of Alexandria
Force of Will
Sol Ring
(some of the most notable)
I wouldn't rank Force of Will as overpowered and it depends on how you classify stuff like Library of Alexandria. Still, I don't think most common/uncommon cubes have Sol Ring due to degeneracy issues.
EDIT: Check Klug's pauper cube for a nice example of this. I think it is exactly what you want to shoot for when building a pauper cube.
One point which has perhaps been overlooked in the discussion thus far, is that playing in powered cubes does tend to minimise creature interactions, and specifically aggro decks. If a deck has 2-3 moxen then they can skip the early part of the game and play things like Elspeth while the poor aggro player still has an Elite Vanguard.
So if you want attacking with creatures to be more relevant, then I could see that as an anti-power arguement....
One point which has perhaps been overlooked in the discussion thus far, is that playing in powered cubes does tend to minimise creature interactions, and specifically aggro decks.
Take out great cards because there isn't enough blocking going on? Ewww.
One point which has perhaps been overlooked in the discussion thus far, is that playing in powered cubes does tend to minimise creature interactions, and specifically aggro decks. If a deck has 2-3 moxen then they can skip the early part of the game and play things like Elspeth while the poor aggro player still has an Elite Vanguard.
So if you want attacking with creatures to be more relevant, then I could see that as an anti-power arguement....
Except you can also look at Power as a way to help aggro decks. I mean, a first turn of Moutain, Mox Ruby, Goblin Guide, Lightning Bolt opp. for 3 is a great start for an aggro deck. Even the blue Power could find a place in an aggro deck (If I was playing aggro, I'd probably splash for Time Walk or Recall).
I'd run Power (plus Library and Mana Drain) if I had the funds.
Yeah but you can limit it to some extent. A common/uncommon cube is more balanced than a fully powered cube simply because it lacks the crazy overpowered bombs. Sure Loxodon Warhammer is strong in that environment but it is not on the same level as Library of Alexandria.
EDIT: I'm not saying I don't like to play with crazy bombs, because I do, just that I can see where the no power guys are coming from.
I would argue that the weaker the overall pool, the stronger the more powerful cards are. Loxodon Warhammer may be a better card in a Common/Uncommon cube than Jitte is in a fully powered cube.
And the inclusion of the power nine does not reduce combat interaction at all, nor does it hinder aggro in any way. A good aggro deck can still compete against a good control deck with power in it. And for the record, and aggro deck with moxen in it is even more aggro.
I look at it as "legacy cube" versus "vintage cube". While yes, I don't adhere to the exact banned list of either format, I like the more traditional feel playing without power delivers. I got my initial start for this format talking to Antknee and Tom Lapille about why they chose not to play power in their cubes compared to many that do, and that is a good reason why I started playing this format in the first place. It's not like we haven't tried playing the power cards either. The people in support of power here seem to believe that if you don't play with power, you might as well not play cube at all, a basic "all or nothing" approach. I believe that Wizards (Garfield in particular) made some bad design decisions when the game was first being developed, and I don't feel people should be forced to play with those "mistakes" just because they were printed at all.
Once you remove the cards you feel are "mistakes", you're left with a bunch of cards that become so powerful in comparison to the others that they may have well have been "mistakes" too. And so on and so fourth. Powerful cards don't create cube imbalance... bad cube design does.
So is the only reason for the creation of Legacy the monetary hurdle of getting into Vintage? Or is it because Wizards wanted to be able to allow people to play almost all of their cards, but still have a somewhat balanced environment that feels more like magic to those of us who play formats like Extended on Standard on a regular basis. You don't have to play all the cards just because they were printed. As I said, mistakes have been made in design from wizards, and as a cube designer I have the ability to craft a more balanced play experience. I also have no problem with some people choosing to play with all the cards available to them. To me, this is simply like people choosing to play Vintage over Legacy. Obviously someone can make some argument like this isn't Vintage OR Legacy, THIS IS CUBE, but I find numerous similarities in comparisons between those two formats and powered/unpowered cubes.
As for the arguement that once you ban a few cards, it becomes a neverending slippery slope of bannings, I have maintained a pretty standard "ban-list" for the last few years, with almost no need to modify it since that point:
1. Black Lotus
2. Time Walk
3. Sol Ring
4. Mind Twist
5. Ancestral Recall
6. Mana Crypt
7. Mana Vault
8. Library of Alexandria
9. Mox Emerald
10. Mox Sapphire
11. Mox Jet
12. Mox Ruby
13. Mox Pearl
14. Mana Drain
I've recently experimented with Mana Drain back in the cube for a while, but it was far too ridiculous still, and just felt unreasonably powerful everytime it was cast. I've found cards like Umezawa's Jitte, Recurring Nightmare, Skullclamp, etc to be powerful cards that are often extremely high picks, but don't have the degenerate feel of Recall, Moxen, or Lotus.
Once you remove the cards you feel are "mistakes", you're left with a bunch of cards that become so powerful in comparison to the others that they may have well have been "mistakes" too. And so on and so fourth. Powerful cards don't create cube imbalance... bad cube design does.
I get this thinking, but it only goes so far. For example, when your're running Darksteel Ingot instead of Black Lotus, its going much harder to do "degenerate" things. Some people want to avoid explosive/blowout things by limiting the amount of cards that enable that. It's not that the cube isn't balanced, its that some people find really powerful cards enable plays that just aren't that fun for their playgroup, so those cards get left out of the cube. And that's just fine, if you like crazy powerful plays, then play the really powerful cards, if you prefer a more ,I dunno, subtle playstyle, then leave them out.
Trying to remove the most powerful or unfun cards ever printed is a fool's errand that will lead to madness due to the subjective nature of things. The power 9 are neither the most powerful or least fun nine cards in the cube, so leaving just them out is just plain dumb.
The only good reason not to play with these cards is money.
Incorrect, my group has also expressed unhappiness when I trialed power in my cube, as you said, its subjective to each group therefore you have no right to call other people's decision "just dumb" if thats what them and their group wants to do. its not because they are too powerful, its just we simply don't enjoy them.
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How significant is the addition of moxen? Lotus? How much better does blue get with Time Walk and A. Recall?
Do games get 'more random' due to the sheer advantage of drawing recall or time walk?
How much more important does artifact destruction become?
I have been slowly creeping up the power level in my cube (recently added Mana Drain), and wondering how much higher I should let it get. My players are usually afraid when I add a powerful card, and are afraid I might add power 9 and 'ruin' the cube - I'm not so sure.
I'm interested in small (very tight) cubes primarily, but any input would be appreciated.
If anyone had an unpowered cube and converted it to a powered one (or vice-versa) how did the 'feel' of your cube change? Did players have more fun?
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Right now I have only added 4 moxes and Timetwister, and non of those are overpowered by any means. Recall is by far the best of the bunch, as it can win games with one blue mana. Time Walk aren't overpowered either imo. I think it's a bit undercostet, but its effect are often just free mana acceleration (that's ofcourse also really good, but not directly broken).
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The only good reason not to play with these cards is money.
True - with the exception of A. Recall. It's up there among Sol Ring, Library and Mind Twist imo.
When I play with my friends there's a non-written rule that you say "sorry mate" when you play Mind Twist. There's not a similar rule when you play a mox...
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Agreed. This is also why I don't play with power. I actually like the progression of resources that most modern magic consists of. Plus, I don't like proxies so I don't have the inclination to purchase actual copies of the power 9. [ although, I do own Time Walk, Ancestral Recall and Library of Alexandria ]
If you have a 360 card cube and you do 8 player drafts. If someone ever gets 4+ power pieces is that the other players don't know how to draft. It's still only 9 cards of at least 360. (1 in 40)
I've been playing with them since I build the cube and surprisingly the cards that mess people up aren't the ones in that 9 card list. (Gargadon with a Balance is useally gg)
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I think that is why they also don't use the cards that are more abusive, like Sol Ring and Library. Hopefully nobody is arguing they are the best 9 cards in the cube.
Nothing is too good for the cube. All the cards are good, and some are better than others. That's how it will always be, not matter what cards you're using, or how many "broken" cards you remove.
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Yeah but you can limit it to some extent. A common/uncommon cube is more balanced than a fully powered cube simply because it lacks the crazy overpowered bombs. Sure Loxodon Warhammer is strong in that environment but it is not on the same level as Library of Alexandria.
EDIT: I'm not saying I don't like to play with crazy bombs, because I do, just that I can see where the no power guys are coming from.
Mana Drain
Library of Alexandria
Force of Will
Sol Ring
(some of the most notable)
360 Cards Sphere: The Junk Cube
I wouldn't rank Force of Will as overpowered and it depends on how you classify stuff like Library of Alexandria. Still, I don't think most common/uncommon cubes have Sol Ring due to degeneracy issues.
EDIT: Check Klug's pauper cube for a nice example of this. I think it is exactly what you want to shoot for when building a pauper cube.
So if you want attacking with creatures to be more relevant, then I could see that as an anti-power arguement....
Take out great cards because there isn't enough blocking going on? Ewww.
Except you can also look at Power as a way to help aggro decks. I mean, a first turn of Moutain, Mox Ruby, Goblin Guide, Lightning Bolt opp. for 3 is a great start for an aggro deck. Even the blue Power could find a place in an aggro deck (If I was playing aggro, I'd probably splash for Time Walk or Recall).
I'd run Power (plus Library and Mana Drain) if I had the funds.
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I would argue that the weaker the overall pool, the stronger the more powerful cards are. Loxodon Warhammer may be a better card in a Common/Uncommon cube than Jitte is in a fully powered cube.
And the inclusion of the power nine does not reduce combat interaction at all, nor does it hinder aggro in any way. A good aggro deck can still compete against a good control deck with power in it. And for the record, and aggro deck with moxen in it is even more aggro.
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
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(list not current)
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(list is always current)
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
As for the arguement that once you ban a few cards, it becomes a neverending slippery slope of bannings, I have maintained a pretty standard "ban-list" for the last few years, with almost no need to modify it since that point:
1. Black Lotus
2. Time Walk
3. Sol Ring
4. Mind Twist
5. Ancestral Recall
6. Mana Crypt
7. Mana Vault
8. Library of Alexandria
9. Mox Emerald
10. Mox Sapphire
11. Mox Jet
12. Mox Ruby
13. Mox Pearl
14. Mana Drain
I've recently experimented with Mana Drain back in the cube for a while, but it was far too ridiculous still, and just felt unreasonably powerful everytime it was cast. I've found cards like Umezawa's Jitte, Recurring Nightmare, Skullclamp, etc to be powerful cards that are often extremely high picks, but don't have the degenerate feel of Recall, Moxen, or Lotus.
(list not current)
My Cube Google Docs Spreadsheet: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AibgWfz0ukmOdDNhOHlucjcxUi1wVy00NDhLbDUtUlE&hl=en_US#gid=8
(list is always current)
I get this thinking, but it only goes so far. For example, when your're running Darksteel Ingot instead of Black Lotus, its going much harder to do "degenerate" things. Some people want to avoid explosive/blowout things by limiting the amount of cards that enable that. It's not that the cube isn't balanced, its that some people find really powerful cards enable plays that just aren't that fun for their playgroup, so those cards get left out of the cube. And that's just fine, if you like crazy powerful plays, then play the really powerful cards, if you prefer a more ,I dunno, subtle playstyle, then leave them out.
Incorrect, my group has also expressed unhappiness when I trialed power in my cube, as you said, its subjective to each group therefore you have no right to call other people's decision "just dumb" if thats what them and their group wants to do. its not because they are too powerful, its just we simply don't enjoy them.
Copy this sig to join the cause. Cuz, ya know, Wizards makes decisions based on sigs.