So I've just started building a cube to play magic with friends when they come over and decided to start with building up the mana base first. So far I got all the enemy pain lands, all of the battle lands, all of the kahns fetches, and all of the enemy fast lands. Anyone have good suggestions on where to aim for right now?
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
After that, you can include lands to taste. Good catch-all inclusions are the new Cycling Lands (Fetid Pools) since they are fetchable, interact with other land-types-matter cards and the cycling is just plain good for decks of all kinds. If you need sources of C, Pain Lands (Brushland) and Filter Lands (Fetid Heath) are good cycles. If you don't need colorless sources, Fast Lands (Blooming Marsh) are your best bet for faster color combinations, and a combination of powerful but slower lands can work for your blue color pairs, like Temples (Temple of Mystery), Bounce Lands (Izzet Boilerworks) or even the Mirage Fetches (Flood Plain) if you're playing Duals and Fetches.
Outside of those options, the Check Lands (Clifftop Retreat) are solid enough placeholders, and the Vivid Lands (Vivid Crag) are decent and cheap. On a tight budget, the Tri-Lands (Frontier Bivouac) are fine too.
Ah Okay. From the sounds of it buying the less expensive budget lands might be good to do first and once you finally complete a balanced cycle of the more powerful lands, swap those in.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Shocks are relatively cheap right now. I'm in the same position as you are with the fetches, and I'm just holding off until the enemy ones get reprinted.
Pain lands are sweet if you support C in your cube, even a little.
Not a fan of the fastlands in cube. Would prefer the checks, I think.
You can also assemble your own cycles. I'm running shocks, temples, pain lands, and a mix of creature lands and checks. The checks will get replaced with the rest of the creature lands as I trade for them, and the temples will be replaced by the fetches the day the enemy ones are reprinted. Not ideal, but neither is spending $250 on 5 cards that will sell for 1/5 of that in a year or so.
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Shocks are relatively cheap right now. I'm in the same position as you are with the fetches, and I'm just holding off until the enemy ones get reprinted.
Pain lands are sweet if you support C in your cube, even a little.
Not a fan of the fastlands in cube. Would prefer the checks, I think.
You can also assemble your own cycles. I'm running shocks, temples, pain lands, and a mix of creature lands and checks. The checks will get replaced with the rest of the creature lands as I trade for them, and the temples will be replaced by the fetches the day the enemy ones are reprinted. Not ideal, but neither is spending $250 on 5 cards that will sell for 1/5 of that in a year or so.
Yeah, I'm actually thinking of avoiding shocks and the restricted list duals mostly because of design reasons. I think the R&D people at Wizards finally figured out how to make basics worthwhile again with the shadow lands and the battle lands. Only issue is that they haven't printed a full cycle on those lands yet so it's turning into a situation of trying to find a good alternative for the other half until they do get printed. Temples sound like a good idea and I'm kind of surprised those were rare, actually. Maybe I'm underestimating scry?
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Entering the battlefield tapped is a pretty serious drawback in cube, and the Scry really doesn't make up for it. IMHO, that drawback is only worth it for the WWK/BFZ manlands. Most of the cycle is pretty cheap, too, with the enemy colored, Rakdos, and Selesnya lands all costing less than $2 each. I highly recommend the shock lands, they're much cheaper than fetches or ABU duals, they interact very nicely with fetches, and they're unlikely to ever be outclassed. The painlands are probably the 5th best cycle overall, so they're still a decent deal if you need budget fixing. I was happy with them in my cube for quite a while, and the check lands are solid budget fixing as well. If you need another cycle, and your budget's too tight for fixing that doesn't ETBT, I'd probably look at the ALA/KTK tri-lands, because they offer very versatile fixing options.
Also, don't forget to make sure you have plenty of 5-color fixing lands. All of the following are reasonably priced and will be great in your cube for years to come:
Yeah, I'm stocking on the Mana Confluence right now and City of Brass due to EDH as well. Ash Barrens feels like the second coming of magic given my preference for basics matter and hopefully they print that in an upcoming standard set as well.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The BFZ duals (Prairie Stream and Sunken Hollow) are worth mentioning. They have basic types which makes them good substitutes for the expensive U-aligned duals. They can be fetched and interacts with Vedalken Shackes and the like.
Everybody says to run duals and fetches, and that is absolutely the most powerful option, but unless your looking to shell out over a thousand dollars on lands (and then put them into a very stealable/ flamable/ otherwise destroyable box,) that is not actually a practical option. I would definitely recommend shocklands and fetches over actual duals to all but the most affluent, or those who have already acquired the duals.
wtwlf123 is correct in that it all depends on the composition you're looking for. Different cycles promote different strategies, and in some cases (such as manlands,) the lands themselves vary greatly in quality. Mixing and matching is kind of fun, and can be useful as some color combinations are typically faster than others, and thus are hampered by the slower lands with upside.
I would say for the best quality to cost ratio, the best options are Trilands, PainLands, Scrylands, and Bouncelands. If your budget is less constrained, I'd recommend something like 10 shocks, 10 fetches, and 10 Trilands (or Manlands if your wallet is up for it). Obviously, the number of slots depends on the cube's size.
Edit: I reviewed the original post, so I see what you've got going. It looks pretty good: 5 enemy painlands, 5 enemy fastlands, 5 ally battlelands, 5 ally fetches. That's nice symmetry. I would add either another 5 to each section (example: 5 enemy Manlands, since they're cheaper, and 5 ally shocklands or bouncelands depending on your budget) or the other option would be to add something like 10 trilands, or 5 ally trilands and 5 vivids. Then I'd add some of the cards that Spike Rogue suggested. I like a lot of lands.
Stomping Ground: The best replacement for duals. (High cost.) Cinder Glade: The only cheap fetchable option. Ally only. (Low cost.) Fire-Lit Thicket: I don't like these as much as I used to, but they can help if you're heavy on double-symbols, or you like C. (High cost.) Raging Ravine: This is likely the most interesting cycle. They are usually best in the late game, and thus are better support for slower color-combos. (Varying cost.) Taiga: The best of the best. You can't beat the originals. (Ridiculously high cost.) Wooded Foothills: Arguably, these actually do beat the originals. (Very high cost.) Karplusan Forest: These are always untapped, which goes a really long way. The pain is painful, and these are better in faster colors. Also, C. (Low cost.) Savage Lands: I love these. They are more versatile during the draft than basically any other land, since the ability to splash is so powerful. (Very low cost.) Gruul Turf: These are a little vulnerable, but they tap for two, which is rare, and inherently powerful. Better for slower colors. (Dirt cheap.) Rootbound Crag: These are middle of the road at best, but because of many reprintings, the ally colored ones are quite cheap. (Low cost.) Temple of Abandon: I really like these. Every deck can use the upside, although slower colors are favored. If I'm being honest, I probably over-value these a bit. (Low cost.) Mountain Valley: These are actually pretty damn good. The only reason they aren't a good budget replacement for the other fetches is that they are an ally only cycle. C'mon, Wizards. (Dirt cheap) Copperline Gorge: These are pretty good, and favor faster colors. They are in need of a reprint, and several of them are not really worth what they cost. (Mid to high cost.)
Game Trail: These are ally color only, and play about as well as the BFZ duals without fetchability. (Low cost.) Mossfire Valley: Not tapping by themselves makes these lands pretty hard to defend. They are cheap, but I'd rather play basically any tapland. (Low cost.) Kazandu Refuge: These are generally placeholders but as placeholders, they do the job pretty well. Obviously, these favor slower colors. (Dirt cheap.) Darigaaz's Caldera: There's not much reason to play these, since Trilands exist. (Low cost.) Jund Panorama: Once again, these are worse than the trilands, but they are better than most people give them credit for. C is nice too. (Dirt cheap.) Gruul Guildgate: This is bottom of the barrel for playable duals, but they are still playable. (Dirt cheap.) Fungal Reaches: These have their uses, but they don't do the basic job of a dual land. (Dirt cheap.) Mogg Hollows, Koskun Keep, and Timberline Ridge: Yuuuuucck! (Dirt cheap.) Highland Weald: It's snow matters, or it's no matter. (Low cost.)
Honorable Mention to the Vivids, which aren't true duals, but go a really long way. A Vivid Crag on the board and Who/What/When/Where/Why in hand is what I live for in my cube.
This won't be a popular opinion but I think you should consider the onslaught cycle lands (Lonely Sandbar, etc). They only take up 5 slots and they are extremely good at smoothing the early game (especially in land heavy builds). There is a tempo hit with ETB tapped lands obviously, so if your cube is blazingly fast with aggro running amuck, you might not have enough decks that can afford to run them, but these lands are very good at taking games with mana/gas problems that would otherwise just be non-games and salvaging them into something more competitive. Put simply, they make Magic better.
Most people will tell you they aren't worth a draft pick, but most decks will play better if you run a cycle land in them.
This won't be a popular opinion but I think you should consider the onslaught cycle lands (Lonely Sandbar, etc). They only take up 5 slots and they are extremely good at smoothing the early game (especially in land heavy builds). There is a tempo hit with ETB tapped lands obviously, so if your cube is blazingly fast with aggro running amuck, you might not have enough decks that can afford to run them, but these lands are very good at taking games with mana/gas problems that would otherwise just be non-games and salvaging them into something more competitive. Put simply, they make Magic better.
Most people will tell you they aren't worth a draft pick, but most decks will play better if you run a cycle land in them.
A house rule that can allows players to run one by color per deck could be interesting. Otherwise, I think that those cards doesn't necessarly not worth a pick, but are mostly wasting a precious cube slot. That's the real issue for us.
This won't be a popular opinion but I think you should consider the onslaught cycle lands (Lonely Sandbar, etc). They only take up 5 slots and they are extremely good at smoothing the early game (especially in land heavy builds). There is a tempo hit with ETB tapped lands obviously, so if your cube is blazingly fast with aggro running amuck, you might not have enough decks that can afford to run them, but these lands are very good at taking games with mana/gas problems that would otherwise just be non-games and salvaging them into something more competitive. Put simply, they make Magic better.
Most people will tell you they aren't worth a draft pick, but most decks will play better if you run a cycle land in them.
A house rule that can allows players to run one by color per deck could be interesting. Otherwise, I think that those cards doesn't necessarly not worth a pick, but are mostly wasting a precious cube slot. That's the real issue for us.
Yeah I'd have no problem picking them from a pick with nothing else and would be happy to pick one up late in a pack, but those are 5 precious cube slots and there are a lot of much more powerful cards I'm not running which I would first in a heartbeat over those.
If they made a dual land cycle of These I'd play them though
They pretty much made half of a cycle of these with the recent dual cycle lands.
And they've been pretty damn good in cube, even in aggressive decks. The ability to be fetched is huge.
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I'm really hoping they're going to complete that cycle too. They'd be a great addition, and not too pricey either.
Still hoping for completion of Bad River and the likes too.
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I was very happy with Shock Lands, Fetch Lands and Scry Lands in cube. And eventually Painlands to maintain fixing density and support Eldrazis
ABU duals are obviously stronger than Shocks, but Shocks make aggro and combo relatively better by forcing slower decks to nickel-and-dime themselves with incidental damage. And, of course, Shocks are cheaper.
I actually like Scrylands more than Manlands for similar reasons. Manlands don't actually get used nearly as often as the Scry does, and their abilities are specifically relevant in midrange/control more often than fast decks, while Scrylands do more to benefit combos by digging up specific card interactions.
On a budget, I'd be happier with playsets of Fastlands, Painlands and Scrylands than digging into ETB tapped lands like the Bad River cycle, as great as their art and names are.
The temples from Theros are good and cheap. The downside of high power duals like the ABU duals, aside from it costing you thousands of dollars to get a set of even the whiteborder ones is that they make 5-color goodstuff decks easy to play. This might not be a downside for you.
The fetchlands from Mirage are dirt cheap and have had recent reprints so you don't need to run the super ugly Mirage versions. They can fetch shocklands, which are cheap. There's several cycles of comes into play tapped, tap for X or Y color duals. There's also the tri-lands from Khans and Alara. Painlands are faster than most of the other fetches but can result in a lot of lost life if you have to rely on those lands for a certain color.
The cycling duals from the Egypt Set are quite good too. You can fetch them or if you draw them late game you can get rid of them.
I'm not telling anyone how to make proxies here (disclaimer so I don't get banned from MTGSalvation lol) but for anyone that cares about price while simultaneously not caring about having a real dual it's an option I can vouch for as being great for budget, both the upfront cost and replacing damaged ones.
So I've just started building a cube to play magic with friends when they come over and decided to start with building up the mana base first. So far I got all the enemy pain lands, all of the battle lands, all of the kahns fetches, and all of the enemy fast lands. Anyone have good suggestions on where to aim for right now?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
After that, you can include lands to taste. Good catch-all inclusions are the new Cycling Lands (Fetid Pools) since they are fetchable, interact with other land-types-matter cards and the cycling is just plain good for decks of all kinds. If you need sources of C, Pain Lands (Brushland) and Filter Lands (Fetid Heath) are good cycles. If you don't need colorless sources, Fast Lands (Blooming Marsh) are your best bet for faster color combinations, and a combination of powerful but slower lands can work for your blue color pairs, like Temples (Temple of Mystery), Bounce Lands (Izzet Boilerworks) or even the Mirage Fetches (Flood Plain) if you're playing Duals and Fetches.
Outside of those options, the Check Lands (Clifftop Retreat) are solid enough placeholders, and the Vivid Lands (Vivid Crag) are decent and cheap. On a tight budget, the Tri-Lands (Frontier Bivouac) are fine too.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Pain lands are sweet if you support C in your cube, even a little.
Not a fan of the fastlands in cube. Would prefer the checks, I think.
You can also assemble your own cycles. I'm running shocks, temples, pain lands, and a mix of creature lands and checks. The checks will get replaced with the rest of the creature lands as I trade for them, and the temples will be replaced by the fetches the day the enemy ones are reprinted. Not ideal, but neither is spending $250 on 5 cards that will sell for 1/5 of that in a year or so.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Yeah, I'm actually thinking of avoiding shocks and the restricted list duals mostly because of design reasons. I think the R&D people at Wizards finally figured out how to make basics worthwhile again with the shadow lands and the battle lands. Only issue is that they haven't printed a full cycle on those lands yet so it's turning into a situation of trying to find a good alternative for the other half until they do get printed. Temples sound like a good idea and I'm kind of surprised those were rare, actually. Maybe I'm underestimating scry?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Also, don't forget to make sure you have plenty of 5-color fixing lands. All of the following are reasonably priced and will be great in your cube for years to come:
Some people exclude them for flavor reasons, but Paliano, the High City and City of Ass are solid 5c budget fixers.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
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wtwlf123 is correct in that it all depends on the composition you're looking for. Different cycles promote different strategies, and in some cases (such as manlands,) the lands themselves vary greatly in quality. Mixing and matching is kind of fun, and can be useful as some color combinations are typically faster than others, and thus are hampered by the slower lands with upside.
I would say for the best quality to cost ratio, the best options are Trilands, PainLands, Scrylands, and Bouncelands. If your budget is less constrained, I'd recommend something like 10 shocks, 10 fetches, and 10 Trilands (or Manlands if your wallet is up for it). Obviously, the number of slots depends on the cube's size.
Edit: I reviewed the original post, so I see what you've got going. It looks pretty good: 5 enemy painlands, 5 enemy fastlands, 5 ally battlelands, 5 ally fetches. That's nice symmetry. I would add either another 5 to each section (example: 5 enemy Manlands, since they're cheaper, and 5 ally shocklands or bouncelands depending on your budget) or the other option would be to add something like 10 trilands, or 5 ally trilands and 5 vivids. Then I'd add some of the cards that Spike Rogue suggested. I like a lot of lands.
Cinder Glade: The only cheap fetchable option. Ally only. (Low cost.)
Fire-Lit Thicket: I don't like these as much as I used to, but they can help if you're heavy on double-symbols, or you like C. (High cost.)
Raging Ravine: This is likely the most interesting cycle. They are usually best in the late game, and thus are better support for slower color-combos. (Varying cost.)
Taiga: The best of the best. You can't beat the originals. (Ridiculously high cost.)
Wooded Foothills: Arguably, these actually do beat the originals. (Very high cost.)
Karplusan Forest: These are always untapped, which goes a really long way. The pain is painful, and these are better in faster colors. Also, C. (Low cost.)
Savage Lands: I love these. They are more versatile during the draft than basically any other land, since the ability to splash is so powerful. (Very low cost.)
Gruul Turf: These are a little vulnerable, but they tap for two, which is rare, and inherently powerful. Better for slower colors. (Dirt cheap.)
Rootbound Crag: These are middle of the road at best, but because of many reprintings, the ally colored ones are quite cheap. (Low cost.)
Temple of Abandon: I really like these. Every deck can use the upside, although slower colors are favored. If I'm being honest, I probably over-value these a bit. (Low cost.)
Mountain Valley: These are actually pretty damn good. The only reason they aren't a good budget replacement for the other fetches is that they are an ally only cycle. C'mon, Wizards. (Dirt cheap)
Copperline Gorge: These are pretty good, and favor faster colors. They are in need of a reprint, and several of them are not really worth what they cost. (Mid to high cost.)
Mossfire Valley: Not tapping by themselves makes these lands pretty hard to defend. They are cheap, but I'd rather play basically any tapland. (Low cost.)
Kazandu Refuge: These are generally placeholders but as placeholders, they do the job pretty well. Obviously, these favor slower colors. (Dirt cheap.)
Darigaaz's Caldera: There's not much reason to play these, since Trilands exist. (Low cost.)
Jund Panorama: Once again, these are worse than the trilands, but they are better than most people give them credit for. C is nice too. (Dirt cheap.)
Gruul Guildgate: This is bottom of the barrel for playable duals, but they are still playable. (Dirt cheap.)
Fungal Reaches: These have their uses, but they don't do the basic job of a dual land. (Dirt cheap.)
Mogg Hollows, Koskun Keep, and Timberline Ridge: Yuuuuucck! (Dirt cheap.)
Highland Weald: It's snow matters, or it's no matter. (Low cost.)
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Most people will tell you they aren't worth a draft pick, but most decks will play better if you run a cycle land in them.
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A house rule that can allows players to run one by color per deck could be interesting. Otherwise, I think that those cards doesn't necessarly not worth a pick, but are mostly wasting a precious cube slot. That's the real issue for us.
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Yeah I'd have no problem picking them from a pick with nothing else and would be happy to pick one up late in a pack, but those are 5 precious cube slots and there are a lot of much more powerful cards I'm not running which I would first in a heartbeat over those.
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They pretty much made half of a cycle of these with the recent dual cycle lands.
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And they've been pretty damn good in cube, even in aggressive decks. The ability to be fetched is huge.
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Still hoping for completion of Bad River and the likes too.
ABU duals are obviously stronger than Shocks, but Shocks make aggro and combo relatively better by forcing slower decks to nickel-and-dime themselves with incidental damage. And, of course, Shocks are cheaper.
I actually like Scrylands more than Manlands for similar reasons. Manlands don't actually get used nearly as often as the Scry does, and their abilities are specifically relevant in midrange/control more often than fast decks, while Scrylands do more to benefit combos by digging up specific card interactions.
On a budget, I'd be happier with playsets of Fastlands, Painlands and Scrylands than digging into ETB tapped lands like the Bad River cycle, as great as their art and names are.
The fetchlands from Mirage are dirt cheap and have had recent reprints so you don't need to run the super ugly Mirage versions. They can fetch shocklands, which are cheap. There's several cycles of comes into play tapped, tap for X or Y color duals. There's also the tri-lands from Khans and Alara. Painlands are faster than most of the other fetches but can result in a lot of lost life if you have to rely on those lands for a certain color.
The cycling duals from the Egypt Set are quite good too. You can fetch them or if you draw them late game you can get rid of them.
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