I do a fair amount of researching popular opinion on here and on reddit to help model my cube. I wanted to experiment with some unpopular ideas to see if they improve my playgroup experience despite being nonstarters here for most. So this thread is to share the ideas I have in mind, take in feedback, and provide a forum for others to share some unpopular ideas concerning cards or archetypes which were cut or that have worked well in their cubes.
Eliminate Pox/Stax - This would mean removing Smokestack and Braids, Cabal Minion specifically. I know Braids in particular is a major favorite, but it's quite fragile and doesn't work the best if it comes down late or against a deck that is able to sustain the permanent loss. Pox/Stax hasn't gotten any support in recent years either outside of some recursive creatures.
Eliminate Wildfire.dec - I know Wildfire/Burning of Xinye are considered among the most powerful (and popular) cards in red but I find the archetype to be unexciting. Play X/5's, mana rocks, and PW's...then resolve this spell and win out if it goes according to plan. I feel the archetype limits the willingness to run X/4 finishers in cube and relies heavily upon the ability to resolve this spell. I'm definitely considering trying out a couple different red finishers such as Kiki-Jiki in their place.
Specific Cards
Stoneforge Mystic - Without swords is this even really worth it? I do run Jitte, Warhammer, Wargear, Collar, Bonesplitter, Skullclamp, and Batterskull but outside of Jitte the Swords are the primary draw for running Mystic. Thoughts?
Reveillark - It has been debated to death and I won't rehash it all here (see Reveillark thread), but I'm definitely ready to cut this.
Asylum Visitor - Is anyone regularly drawing cards off of this guy? I concede it is the best card of its kind but it still isn't consistently drawing cards or a card in my experience. I'm on the fence here.
Warden of the First Tree - This does a really poor impression of Figure of Destiny. It requires multiple colors, if cast on turn 1, "leveling it up" will cost all of your available mana on turn 2. It does not have a middle level that increases its power and toughness which puts you at a major disadvantage in between the first and third modes.
Wickerbough Elder - Expensive artifact/enchantment hate that seems outclassed by today's standards. Again, I think the parameters of my cube places a slightly lower premium on artifact hate but I still find this underwhelming in most lists.
Pernicious Deed - Yet another victim of a Swordless cube and PW caps. More often than not it plays like a wrath that you're forecasting to your opponent one turn ahead of time. I've had a lot more success with Life//Death personally as a great reanimator support card or an awesome go-wide win condition late game with an awesomely fun synergy with Sylvan Advocate.
Smokestack is one of my favorite archetype/cards in cube. Braids, I'm less crazy for. I tried forcing the deck in your cube. It turned out okay, not the craziest stax deck I've seen, but workable.
I noticed you don't run Crucible of Worlds and Life from the Loam. Those cards, while narrow and fairly low picks, do go a long way to support the archetype - getting soot counter fuel not only from the graveyard lands, but also can lead to soot counters fueled by bloodghast, Oracle of mul daya, and emeria angel. They also boost Wildfire's power. Really though, as long as you have a good amount of cards that can put a permanent into play each turn, Smokestack should be able to put you in a commanding position. Elspeth knight errant, Sun Titan, Goblin Rabblemaster, etc.
I am very much not a fan of Asylum Visitor and Warden of the First Tree.
I think the main thing is to do what you and group want. That said, my take on the mentioned cards.
Pox/Stax: Braids and Smokestack are very strong the right deck and the right time, but there are a lot of random recursive effects and token generators/armies-in-a-can which can make these cards symmetrical or worse if you run into one on the other side. Stax has never been Tier 1 in our cube but these are nice value engines for decks running enough synergies, so we like them a lot. I always rate Braids high on the Top 20 lists, since picked highly it is much more playable. Crucible and LftL would help here.
Wildfire/BoX: We aren't running these currently since we don't particularly enjoy what is a fairly linear archetype, but if built around it's a very strong deck to play. They also suffer for drafting small portions of the cube, which we often do - these aren't powerful or useful in decks not built around them. There are a lot of choices to be made in red around what archetypes to support so some good cards are inevitably going to fall by the wayside. Definitely we could reintroduce these when more synergies are printed.
Stoneforge Mystic: (Interested why someone could run Jitte but not Swords - I assume this isn't a power level based cut) - I think SFM is still playable since it's at worst a cantripping 1/2 for 2 which cantrips into one of the best cards in your deck. With Batterskull there is extra synergy on top of that.
Reveillark: Needs building around and only good if you get the pieces in the graveyard and get it to leave play and assuming that the pieces you recur are actually useful. Has had more lives than a cat surviving cuts and being reinstated for another go. Despite that the ceiling is ridiculous in the right deck at the right time, but really that should be the case for a 5 drop when built around... So yes I can totally see cutting it even if we are running it over Baneslayer at present.
Asylum Visitor: WCS 3/1 for 2 is not bad and we draw cards off it a lot in B/x aggro. Drawing off the opponent's main phase is not flavour text either in the mirror match, or packing discard. Nor is Madness, which mitigates random LoTV activations or Heir of Falkenrath, etc. Very safe for us.
Warden of the First Tree: I prefer it to Figure. Easier to find the correct mana to level it up and it hits a better size early on more easily. Also fits into more decks colour-wise. Late-game it can go nuts with repeated activation whereas Figure is extremely difficult to ultimate. Also very safe in the Abzan slot.
Wickerbough Elder: Haven't played it for a very long time.
Pernicious Deed: I can see it. It's sort of general good-stuff sweeper/removal so depending on the make-up of your G/B section there might be something else you want to run in its place. Generically it's probably the best Golgari card though.
Stax and Wildfire are probably my two favorite archetypes in the cube, lol.
Was just about to post this.
For Stax, I'm one of the few who still loves Smallpox in cube. My favorite Braids decks include Hymn, Smallpox, Sinkhole, Bitterblossom, all the recursive black creatures, and splash either white for Lingering Souls and the Thalias (deck's called BW Mean Girls around here), red for reach and tokens, or my favorite, green for graveyard recursion and Life from the Loam. The name of the game is resource denial, and not just with permanents, but also cards in hand. I tend to play few or no 1-drop creatures without recursion, and prefer to play all the Duress effects I can. Just keep them off the stuff that's going to get them out of the lock. It's not the most powerful archetype, but I disagree that it isn't getting any support. Every year we get another sweet recursive /token generating creature: Dread Wanderer and Scrapheap Scrounger lately, and before that, Mardu Strike Leader and Flesh Carver. Those are all big game in Stax. Also Recruiter of the Guard is great for fetching Braids and as her first victim.
I love Wildfire. You're running signets, too. But if you don't like the strategy, cut it. I think there's room for all kinds or archetype support in red: I've currently got some artifact support, combo-tokens with Purphoros and Goblin Bombardment, Wildfire, and I'm also going to squeeze in Twin combo pretty soon. And there's still plenty of aggro and midrange stuff in there, too. When you get cards like Pia and Kiran Nalaar, it doesn't take much to support a few archetypes at once.
I wouldn't run Stoneforge without the Swords.
I love Reveillark but understand why others don't. For me it's a question of what would you replace it with?
Asylum Visitor is decent for us, but not sacred. Curious to see how it'll play with Hazoret once I get one. I can see a small RB hellbent theme emerging without any effort at all, since the cards are already pretty good.
Warden of the First Tree is okay for us. My cube doesn't support hard green aggro, but it has lots of tools for a fast midrange deck. Warden, Nacatl, and Experiment One provide a few 1-drop creatures for green to play in these sorts of decks.
Wickbough Elder is on its last legs, I think. Green 4s are kind of barren, though, and there's no obvious replacement for me. But I won't cry at all when it gets cut.
Pernicious Deed is an interesting card in my cube in that the old players know how busted it is, and newer players never draft it. It does good work, but if no one is playing it, I don't think it's crazy to look elsewhere.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Wow! Appreciate all the detailed feedback. I'm not surprised that the majority of it is in defense of these cards/archetypes--that was what I expected. I want to hear about successes that happened when cube designers deviated from popular opinion.
Regarding Pox/Stax: I find Crucible and Lftl to be very narrow outside of this archetype. Crucible has a few other cute interactions (Strip Mine for one). Cost has also been a barrier to getting Crucible, but I've never wanted Lftl because it just seems very durdly/narrow. To be clear I didn't say this archetype isn't getting any support, just none that are fueling the forced sacrifice aspect of the archetype.
Wildfire: Linear is a good word for it @Goodking. I just want to open up some slots for something more interesting and hearing someone else has tried this with success is encouraging.
Sounds like people are of mixed opinion on Mystic without the Swords. I run Jitte and not the swords because I'm more comfortable with one incredibly powerful equipment than a whole cycle of busted double protection equipments that will show up in every draft.
Asylum Visitor is going to get more time. Reveillark, Warden, Wickerbough, and Pernicious Deed are probably out.
I also wanted this thread to be about unconventional additions-cards or archetypes-that have worked out really well....would anyone like to throw out a few from their cube? I know I am looking to bring back Abyssal Persecutor for one...
Stax and Wildfire are also two of my favorite archetypes in cube. With that said, though, you should support the archetypes and decks that your group finds the most fun to play. I support these two because I love playing them so much. If it weren't for these two strategies, honestly, I'd never play any sort of control strategy ever. I think the card pool is deep enough now, though, that you can probably cut these two archetypes and support something completely different in red and black that your group will enjoy drafting more. What other archetypes are you looking to support in those colors?
Without the full suite of equipment, SFM is probably not necessary, but I still think it's good enough to include. Goodking nailed the reasoning, but just to rehash a little, you still have several very powerful equipments and SFM is great even with only a couple in your deck. Not only does it tutor it up for you, but it allows you just place it out on the battlefield with no fear of being countered (and often for a cheaper cost at 2 vs 3 or more mana).
Reveillark is near busted amounts of value in the right shell (I sometimes put together a UW tempo/value deck with 'lark and Sun Titan at the top of the curve. Very nice in that shell.) Again, though, if there's another 4-5 cc white creature you're looking to try out that you think your group will get more enjoyment out of, Reveillark is certainly not uncuttable.
Asylum Visitor has been a very solid performer if you support any sort of black aggressive strategy. I haven't found it very hard to make active to generate some card advantage. Bx aggro (esp Rakdos) has no problem with that at all. If your group isn't playing these types of decks, though, then you probably don't need it.
I honestly haven't been super impressed with Warden either. I guess maybe the decks it slots into just aren't the types of decks my group and I prefer. I've thought multiple times about swapping Siege Rhino back into the Abzan slot. I think my group would play it more often than Warden despite the harder casting cost. It's kind of super mana intensive and the middle ability is a little weak in comparison to Figure, imo. I'd much rather have this guy be an Abzan copy of Figure, where he becomes a 3/3, then a 5/5, then a monster, especially at the mythic rarity. I don't think I've ever seen his "ultimate" activated, while making Figure a 4/4 happens all the time and is often all you really need to do.
Wickerbough is fine, but I don't think you're crazy for cutting it. Green has some really solid ways to remove artifacts in creature form, so if you'd rather slot in something a little more flashy in that 4-5cc slot, I wouldn't blame you at all.
Pernicious Deed is a powerful, but strange card. There are times, definitely, when it's such an asymmetrical board wipe (kill your little dudes, smash with my 3-4 cc guys). There are also times, however, when I feel like I can't even afford to run it in my Golgari decks because I don't want to blow up my mana dorks and value 2cc guys or mana rocks. I like the card, but I don't think it sees near as much play in my cube lately as it once did in the past.
This is the great thing about cube and the current state of Magic, though. The card pool we have to work from right now is so deep and diverse that there really isn't a set 360 skeleton for cube. You can easily support several different archetypes depending on what your group enjoys playing. The most important aspect of cubing is making sure you're having fun drafting and playing the thing. If you don't like playing Wildfire or Pernicious Deed, get 'em out. Don't force cards in your own cube just because some group 100s of miles away enjoys playing them.
Thanks to you as well for such a detailed response. I'd love to give Kiki-Jiki a whirl in red and throw in a couple of the combo pieces--I'm thinking combat celebrant for one. Not sure which other one I would bring in as Pestermite and Deceiver Exarch are both pretty meh outside of this combo. Suggestions?
Regarding Stoneforge: I'm torn. Wizards has definitely put the nerfstick to equipment lately so it could be a long while until it gets any better than it is. The drafts where you pick up this guy and don't see Jitte or Batterskull can be a real letdown too.
When I introduce Twin combo into my cube, the pieces will be as follows: Restoration Angel, Pestermite, Combat Celebrant, Zealous Conscripts, Kiki-Jiki, and Splinter Twin. Half of them are in my cube already, and cutting Baral or something similar for Pestermite isn't a huge deal. Pestermite is also fine in a blue tempo deck. I'd play it 10 times out of 10 in a deck with Opposition, for instance.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I'm not sure what other archetype I'd try to push in red if I weren't running Wildfire. Maybe a Rakdos style Aristocrats sacrifice package with Goblin Bombardment? Maybe push spells matter a little harder and add in Guttersnipe and some of the spell token makers? I don't know, really. My two favorite red decks are the aggro decks (RDW or Boros/Rakdos/Gruul aggro) and the go big red decks that run ramp and work up to Wildfire.
I currently run Kiki-Jiki, but only because my group finds the card fun and interesting as a value creature. The infinite combos of Resto or Conscripts have happened here and there, but they aren't so often that it feels like a truly supported archetype. I'll just be honest, losing to Kiki/Twin combo gives me some of the biggest feel bads ever, so I just don't want to include that in my cube. I prefer to use Kiki to copy the Nekrataals and Man-o'-Wars of the world to create incremental card advantage.
MikePemulis: I'd be interested to hear experiences of running both artifact.dec support, Kiki support and Wildfire support in the same cube after you've done some testing. I found it problematic that there were essentially three somewhat different Izzet combo decks (four if you count Show and Tell + Sneak Attack) that all wanted card draw and would also prefer artifact ramp/fixing to some degree, so I cut Kiki combo for a while. It felt bad, because I actually really like the combo in cube, but especially having to use two five-drop slots in red for the combo was just cumbersome.
Not much to add about most of the cards, but it's nice to see other people being skeptical about Pernicious Deed. It's a really strong card, but the kind of deck that would most benefit from it just rarely happens. I push both green and black aggro and the odd Bg aggro actually happens every once in a while. Then of course there's Rec/Sur, and general ramp/reanimator/midrange stuff. A boardwipe that most of the time gets rid of all your mana dorks and/ or your Survival is just harsh, and I'm not sure if GB midrange really needs a card to wipe out Goblin Guides when it can just block with larger creatures and grind out value. Sometimes I think it's a 3+ colour card in disguise, to be splashed in 3-5c control.
I cut Lotleth Troll after the inclusion of Heir of Falkenrath and Noose Constrictor, and added Deed. I sometimes think of reverting back to support the weird GB aggro-reanimator that these cards make possible. Life//Death is also extremely funny.
Braids has found more success here than Smokestack. She is fragile, but she hurts your opponent sooner, and being able to attack and carry a sword is also relevant.
I am not playing Wildfire, mostly because there is not enough redundancy for that effect in a large cube. If another close copy was printed I'd have tried it, but the chances of that ever happening are slim. Red can still offer plenty of reasons to combine it with mana rocks.
Stoneforge Mystic - probably still worth running. I'd run it in any deck with two useful equipment, or one critical or highly powerful piece (mostly Jitte and Skullclamp). Card advantage on a two drop is just hard to argue with, and white's two drops are not that powerful.
Reveillark - I agree there are many playable white five drops and Lark is not the top choice. No reason to force the card if it is not working, there are plenty of good options to experiment with here.
Warden of the First Tree - as green is not an aggro color in my cube, I'd not play it if it was a Figure of Destiny copy. I have seen this be a 13/13 lifelinker just last draft, and the ability to pressure slower decks with ease is great as well.
Asylum Visitor - probably draws less than one card per game. That's okay, you do not need much value on a 3/1 for 1B to make it great. It is simply too strong a contender considering the competition in its slot. There are some better or comparable black two drops, but you are probably already playing all of them and want more.
Jokulhaups has been awesome for me. It's the red upheaval. That's of course a bit of an exaggeration, but the best thing is having someone laugh at Jokulhaups during the draft and then get demolished by it in play. This also happens with Death Cloud too, though that's a little harder to get together.
MikePemulis: I'd be interested to hear experiences of running both artifact.dec support, Kiki support and Wildfire support in the same cube after you've done some testing. I found it problematic that there were essentially three somewhat different Izzet combo decks (four if you count Show and Tell + Sneak Attack) that all wanted card draw and would also prefer artifact ramp/fixing to some degree, so I cut Kiki combo for a while. It felt bad, because I actually really like the combo in cube, but especially having to use two five-drop slots in red for the combo was just cumbersome.
Our Wildfire decks tend to be RG or RW more often than UR, weirdly. The artifact deck's red component is usually pretty light, and its card are a little more specific.
At least, that's my hope. Red becomes really interesting with support for different non-aggro decks, and if the price to pay is that cantrips and fixing become more highly contested, I think I'll roll with it and try it out for a while.
I'm hopeful that once the school year ends, my group will draft weekly or better, so I'll have more data on this soon.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I know a lot of people would have been on board with insult // injury if only it had been the other way around. As is, I think its just too variable for most cubers. Consistency is king in cube. As such, there are a ton of swingy potential bombs that get passed over because they're too conditional. The black, blue, and green god spells from HOU are another current example of this. I sometimes think the pendulum swings towards being cubers being overly conservative in their evaluations of swingy cards, but for every one of those times there is a swingy card I was boarish on that failed to perform....
Sphinx of Lost Truths is a card I don't think I've ever actually seen in anyone else's cube, and it's still one I'm pretty fond of. You don't get too much from it as a 5-drop, but even in this form I find it solid against aggro, useful for card selection, and good for helping to fuel Delve as well as supporting reanimator decks and other graveyard interactions. 5 toughness also helps to survive Wildfire, offering small support for U/R varieties of the deck.
This slot was previously Sphinx of Uthuun (before I got my hands on a Consecrated Sphinx), which itself seems quite stronger than Lost Truths as a 7, but I think the added flexibility of Lost Truths makes it more broadly desirable; it's not really a finisher (although in some decks, it could be), but generally a rock of a card that helps bridge a control deck into the late game.
I don't think most folks need another card in this spot, but I think anyone looking for a blue 5drop could do worse than this guy.
Jokulhaups has been awesome for me. It's the red upheaval. That's of course a bit of an exaggeration, but the best thing is having someone laugh at Jokulhaups during the draft and then get demolished by it in play. This also happens with Death Cloud too, though that's a little harder to get together.
I suggested Jokulhaups months (maybe years?) ago and got laughed at. I'm SO glad someone is using it! hahah
Jokulhaups has been awesome for me. It's the red upheaval. That's of course a bit of an exaggeration, but the best thing is having someone laugh at Jokulhaups during the draft and then get demolished by it in play. This also happens with Death Cloud too, though that's a little harder to get together.
I suggested Jokulhaups months (maybe years?) ago and got laughed at. I'm SO glad someone is using it! hahah
A lot can happen in years, but one thing that won't change is me running Jokulhaups. I mean, it's called Jokulahaups!!! Thankfully it's also a *good* card, but even if it ends up being the worst card in my red section (which would be tough) it would take a lot to remove it still.
I'd probably play Jokulhaups if I went to 720 or so.
I've toyed with the idea of Death Cloud, but the BBB is so hard.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
But yeah, the restrictions around these cards can make them difficult to play. I kinda liked them, but my playgroup didn't. Between being a bit harder to work with, and nobody else really feeling satisfied with them, I eventually replaced both.
Sphinx of Lost Truths is a card I don't think I've ever actually seen in anyone else's cube, and it's still one I'm pretty fond of. You don't get too much from it as a 5-drop, but even in this form I find it solid against aggro, useful for card selection, and good for helping to fuel Delve as well as supporting reanimator decks and other graveyard interactions. 5 toughness also helps to survive Wildfire, offering small support for U/R varieties of the deck.
I ran that one in the early years of my cube! I liked the large amount looting and high toughness. It got cut for some more powerful 5- or 6-drop, but I don't think that it is that far off the power standard and the looting / card draw option is rare on a creature.
...
A card that has been absolutely stellar in my cube that doesn't get much (or any) recognition around here is Dictate of Heliod. I think that card is absolutely insane in any WX aggressive deck. Not only does it win you the game when you are ahead (like Armageddon would), it also prevents your from losing the game when you are behind. Dictete turns any random two or three creatures (even if those are just 1-drops or small tokens) into a serious board position. And it can act as a mean surprise and is rather hard to remove. Sure, it doesn't do anything if you lose all your creatures, but it also helps you rebuild insanely quickly. Even the most meager guy you topdeck turns into an actual threat. Also, having your dudes outsized by your midrange or control opponent just doesn't happen with Dictate. You'll have the earlier creatures and the bigger creatures!
I was actually thinking about adding Dictate of Heliod, it always struck me as a really powerful card that never seemed to get enough of a mention. W/x token decks love it and the more midrange decks are happy to have their beaters get beatyer. Seems like a sign I should give it a go.
I cut Death Cloud today, I really wanted it to work for the longest time but it just never came together very well. Sure a couple of times it was a blow out and won games, but 98% of the time it didn't make the main deck. It allways just feels to inefficient when you do the math, even an 8 mana death cloud isn't going to win you games the way many other spells could.
My cube for reference: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/34371
(450 unpowered, no fast mana, no swords, PW caps [3 per color, 1 per guild, 2 colorless])
Archetype Removal
Eliminate Pox/Stax - This would mean removing Smokestack and Braids, Cabal Minion specifically. I know Braids in particular is a major favorite, but it's quite fragile and doesn't work the best if it comes down late or against a deck that is able to sustain the permanent loss. Pox/Stax hasn't gotten any support in recent years either outside of some recursive creatures.
Eliminate Wildfire.dec - I know Wildfire/Burning of Xinye are considered among the most powerful (and popular) cards in red but I find the archetype to be unexciting. Play X/5's, mana rocks, and PW's...then resolve this spell and win out if it goes according to plan. I feel the archetype limits the willingness to run X/4 finishers in cube and relies heavily upon the ability to resolve this spell. I'm definitely considering trying out a couple different red finishers such as Kiki-Jiki in their place.
Specific Cards
Stoneforge Mystic - Without swords is this even really worth it? I do run Jitte, Warhammer, Wargear, Collar, Bonesplitter, Skullclamp, and Batterskull but outside of Jitte the Swords are the primary draw for running Mystic. Thoughts?
Reveillark - It has been debated to death and I won't rehash it all here (see Reveillark thread), but I'm definitely ready to cut this.
Asylum Visitor - Is anyone regularly drawing cards off of this guy? I concede it is the best card of its kind but it still isn't consistently drawing cards or a card in my experience. I'm on the fence here.
Warden of the First Tree - This does a really poor impression of Figure of Destiny. It requires multiple colors, if cast on turn 1, "leveling it up" will cost all of your available mana on turn 2. It does not have a middle level that increases its power and toughness which puts you at a major disadvantage in between the first and third modes.
Wickerbough Elder - Expensive artifact/enchantment hate that seems outclassed by today's standards. Again, I think the parameters of my cube places a slightly lower premium on artifact hate but I still find this underwhelming in most lists.
Pernicious Deed - Yet another victim of a Swordless cube and PW caps. More often than not it plays like a wrath that you're forecasting to your opponent one turn ahead of time. I've had a lot more success with Life//Death personally as a great reanimator support card or an awesome go-wide win condition late game with an awesomely fun synergy with Sylvan Advocate.
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubedeck/729479
I noticed you don't run Crucible of Worlds and Life from the Loam. Those cards, while narrow and fairly low picks, do go a long way to support the archetype - getting soot counter fuel not only from the graveyard lands, but also can lead to soot counters fueled by bloodghast, Oracle of mul daya, and emeria angel. They also boost Wildfire's power. Really though, as long as you have a good amount of cards that can put a permanent into play each turn, Smokestack should be able to put you in a commanding position. Elspeth knight errant, Sun Titan, Goblin Rabblemaster, etc.
I am very much not a fan of Asylum Visitor and Warden of the First Tree.
[180 classic cube]
Pox/Stax: Braids and Smokestack are very strong the right deck and the right time, but there are a lot of random recursive effects and token generators/armies-in-a-can which can make these cards symmetrical or worse if you run into one on the other side. Stax has never been Tier 1 in our cube but these are nice value engines for decks running enough synergies, so we like them a lot. I always rate Braids high on the Top 20 lists, since picked highly it is much more playable. Crucible and LftL would help here.
Wildfire/BoX: We aren't running these currently since we don't particularly enjoy what is a fairly linear archetype, but if built around it's a very strong deck to play. They also suffer for drafting small portions of the cube, which we often do - these aren't powerful or useful in decks not built around them. There are a lot of choices to be made in red around what archetypes to support so some good cards are inevitably going to fall by the wayside. Definitely we could reintroduce these when more synergies are printed.
Stoneforge Mystic: (Interested why someone could run Jitte but not Swords - I assume this isn't a power level based cut) - I think SFM is still playable since it's at worst a cantripping 1/2 for 2 which cantrips into one of the best cards in your deck. With Batterskull there is extra synergy on top of that.
Reveillark: Needs building around and only good if you get the pieces in the graveyard and get it to leave play and assuming that the pieces you recur are actually useful. Has had more lives than a cat surviving cuts and being reinstated for another go. Despite that the ceiling is ridiculous in the right deck at the right time, but really that should be the case for a 5 drop when built around... So yes I can totally see cutting it even if we are running it over Baneslayer at present.
Asylum Visitor: WCS 3/1 for 2 is not bad and we draw cards off it a lot in B/x aggro. Drawing off the opponent's main phase is not flavour text either in the mirror match, or packing discard. Nor is Madness, which mitigates random LoTV activations or Heir of Falkenrath, etc. Very safe for us.
Warden of the First Tree: I prefer it to Figure. Easier to find the correct mana to level it up and it hits a better size early on more easily. Also fits into more decks colour-wise. Late-game it can go nuts with repeated activation whereas Figure is extremely difficult to ultimate. Also very safe in the Abzan slot.
Wickerbough Elder: Haven't played it for a very long time.
Pernicious Deed: I can see it. It's sort of general good-stuff sweeper/removal so depending on the make-up of your G/B section there might be something else you want to run in its place. Generically it's probably the best Golgari card though.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
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Was just about to post this.
For Stax, I'm one of the few who still loves Smallpox in cube. My favorite Braids decks include Hymn, Smallpox, Sinkhole, Bitterblossom, all the recursive black creatures, and splash either white for Lingering Souls and the Thalias (deck's called BW Mean Girls around here), red for reach and tokens, or my favorite, green for graveyard recursion and Life from the Loam. The name of the game is resource denial, and not just with permanents, but also cards in hand. I tend to play few or no 1-drop creatures without recursion, and prefer to play all the Duress effects I can. Just keep them off the stuff that's going to get them out of the lock. It's not the most powerful archetype, but I disagree that it isn't getting any support. Every year we get another sweet recursive /token generating creature: Dread Wanderer and Scrapheap Scrounger lately, and before that, Mardu Strike Leader and Flesh Carver. Those are all big game in Stax. Also Recruiter of the Guard is great for fetching Braids and as her first victim.
I love Wildfire. You're running signets, too. But if you don't like the strategy, cut it. I think there's room for all kinds or archetype support in red: I've currently got some artifact support, combo-tokens with Purphoros and Goblin Bombardment, Wildfire, and I'm also going to squeeze in Twin combo pretty soon. And there's still plenty of aggro and midrange stuff in there, too. When you get cards like Pia and Kiran Nalaar, it doesn't take much to support a few archetypes at once.
I wouldn't run Stoneforge without the Swords.
I love Reveillark but understand why others don't. For me it's a question of what would you replace it with?
Asylum Visitor is decent for us, but not sacred. Curious to see how it'll play with Hazoret once I get one. I can see a small RB hellbent theme emerging without any effort at all, since the cards are already pretty good.
Warden of the First Tree is okay for us. My cube doesn't support hard green aggro, but it has lots of tools for a fast midrange deck. Warden, Nacatl, and Experiment One provide a few 1-drop creatures for green to play in these sorts of decks.
Wickbough Elder is on its last legs, I think. Green 4s are kind of barren, though, and there's no obvious replacement for me. But I won't cry at all when it gets cut.
Pernicious Deed is an interesting card in my cube in that the old players know how busted it is, and newer players never draft it. It does good work, but if no one is playing it, I don't think it's crazy to look elsewhere.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Regarding Pox/Stax: I find Crucible and Lftl to be very narrow outside of this archetype. Crucible has a few other cute interactions (Strip Mine for one). Cost has also been a barrier to getting Crucible, but I've never wanted Lftl because it just seems very durdly/narrow. To be clear I didn't say this archetype isn't getting any support, just none that are fueling the forced sacrifice aspect of the archetype.
Wildfire: Linear is a good word for it @Goodking. I just want to open up some slots for something more interesting and hearing someone else has tried this with success is encouraging.
Sounds like people are of mixed opinion on Mystic without the Swords. I run Jitte and not the swords because I'm more comfortable with one incredibly powerful equipment than a whole cycle of busted double protection equipments that will show up in every draft.
Asylum Visitor is going to get more time. Reveillark, Warden, Wickerbough, and Pernicious Deed are probably out.
I also wanted this thread to be about unconventional additions-cards or archetypes-that have worked out really well....would anyone like to throw out a few from their cube? I know I am looking to bring back Abyssal Persecutor for one...
Without the full suite of equipment, SFM is probably not necessary, but I still think it's good enough to include. Goodking nailed the reasoning, but just to rehash a little, you still have several very powerful equipments and SFM is great even with only a couple in your deck. Not only does it tutor it up for you, but it allows you just place it out on the battlefield with no fear of being countered (and often for a cheaper cost at 2 vs 3 or more mana).
Reveillark is near busted amounts of value in the right shell (I sometimes put together a UW tempo/value deck with 'lark and Sun Titan at the top of the curve. Very nice in that shell.) Again, though, if there's another 4-5 cc white creature you're looking to try out that you think your group will get more enjoyment out of, Reveillark is certainly not uncuttable.
Asylum Visitor has been a very solid performer if you support any sort of black aggressive strategy. I haven't found it very hard to make active to generate some card advantage. Bx aggro (esp Rakdos) has no problem with that at all. If your group isn't playing these types of decks, though, then you probably don't need it.
I honestly haven't been super impressed with Warden either. I guess maybe the decks it slots into just aren't the types of decks my group and I prefer. I've thought multiple times about swapping Siege Rhino back into the Abzan slot. I think my group would play it more often than Warden despite the harder casting cost. It's kind of super mana intensive and the middle ability is a little weak in comparison to Figure, imo. I'd much rather have this guy be an Abzan copy of Figure, where he becomes a 3/3, then a 5/5, then a monster, especially at the mythic rarity. I don't think I've ever seen his "ultimate" activated, while making Figure a 4/4 happens all the time and is often all you really need to do.
Wickerbough is fine, but I don't think you're crazy for cutting it. Green has some really solid ways to remove artifacts in creature form, so if you'd rather slot in something a little more flashy in that 4-5cc slot, I wouldn't blame you at all.
Pernicious Deed is a powerful, but strange card. There are times, definitely, when it's such an asymmetrical board wipe (kill your little dudes, smash with my 3-4 cc guys). There are also times, however, when I feel like I can't even afford to run it in my Golgari decks because I don't want to blow up my mana dorks and value 2cc guys or mana rocks. I like the card, but I don't think it sees near as much play in my cube lately as it once did in the past.
This is the great thing about cube and the current state of Magic, though. The card pool we have to work from right now is so deep and diverse that there really isn't a set 360 skeleton for cube. You can easily support several different archetypes depending on what your group enjoys playing. The most important aspect of cubing is making sure you're having fun drafting and playing the thing. If you don't like playing Wildfire or Pernicious Deed, get 'em out. Don't force cards in your own cube just because some group 100s of miles away enjoys playing them.
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Regarding Stoneforge: I'm torn. Wizards has definitely put the nerfstick to equipment lately so it could be a long while until it gets any better than it is. The drafts where you pick up this guy and don't see Jitte or Batterskull can be a real letdown too.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I currently run Kiki-Jiki, but only because my group finds the card fun and interesting as a value creature. The infinite combos of Resto or Conscripts have happened here and there, but they aren't so often that it feels like a truly supported archetype. I'll just be honest, losing to Kiki/Twin combo gives me some of the biggest feel bads ever, so I just don't want to include that in my cube. I prefer to use Kiki to copy the Nekrataals and Man-o'-Wars of the world to create incremental card advantage.
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Not much to add about most of the cards, but it's nice to see other people being skeptical about Pernicious Deed. It's a really strong card, but the kind of deck that would most benefit from it just rarely happens. I push both green and black aggro and the odd Bg aggro actually happens every once in a while. Then of course there's Rec/Sur, and general ramp/reanimator/midrange stuff. A boardwipe that most of the time gets rid of all your mana dorks and/ or your Survival is just harsh, and I'm not sure if GB midrange really needs a card to wipe out Goblin Guides when it can just block with larger creatures and grind out value. Sometimes I think it's a 3+ colour card in disguise, to be splashed in 3-5c control.
I cut Lotleth Troll after the inclusion of Heir of Falkenrath and Noose Constrictor, and added Deed. I sometimes think of reverting back to support the weird GB aggro-reanimator that these cards make possible. Life//Death is also extremely funny.
I am not playing Wildfire, mostly because there is not enough redundancy for that effect in a large cube. If another close copy was printed I'd have tried it, but the chances of that ever happening are slim. Red can still offer plenty of reasons to combine it with mana rocks.
Stoneforge Mystic - probably still worth running. I'd run it in any deck with two useful equipment, or one critical or highly powerful piece (mostly Jitte and Skullclamp). Card advantage on a two drop is just hard to argue with, and white's two drops are not that powerful.
Reveillark - I agree there are many playable white five drops and Lark is not the top choice. No reason to force the card if it is not working, there are plenty of good options to experiment with here.
Warden of the First Tree - as green is not an aggro color in my cube, I'd not play it if it was a Figure of Destiny copy. I have seen this be a 13/13 lifelinker just last draft, and the ability to pressure slower decks with ease is great as well.
Asylum Visitor - probably draws less than one card per game. That's okay, you do not need much value on a 3/1 for 1B to make it great. It is simply too strong a contender considering the competition in its slot. There are some better or comparable black two drops, but you are probably already playing all of them and want more.
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Our Wildfire decks tend to be RG or RW more often than UR, weirdly. The artifact deck's red component is usually pretty light, and its card are a little more specific.
At least, that's my hope. Red becomes really interesting with support for different non-aggro decks, and if the price to pay is that cantrips and fixing become more highly contested, I think I'll roll with it and try it out for a while.
I'm hopeful that once the school year ends, my group will draft weekly or better, so I'll have more data on this soon.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
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This slot was previously Sphinx of Uthuun (before I got my hands on a Consecrated Sphinx), which itself seems quite stronger than Lost Truths as a 7, but I think the added flexibility of Lost Truths makes it more broadly desirable; it's not really a finisher (although in some decks, it could be), but generally a rock of a card that helps bridge a control deck into the late game.
I don't think most folks need another card in this spot, but I think anyone looking for a blue 5drop could do worse than this guy.
I suggested Jokulhaups months (maybe years?) ago and got laughed at. I'm SO glad someone is using it! hahah
A lot can happen in years, but one thing that won't change is me running Jokulhaups. I mean, it's called Jokulahaups!!! Thankfully it's also a *good* card, but even if it ends up being the worst card in my red section (which would be tough) it would take a lot to remove it still.
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I've toyed with the idea of Death Cloud, but the BBB is so hard.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
But yeah, the restrictions around these cards can make them difficult to play. I kinda liked them, but my playgroup didn't. Between being a bit harder to work with, and nobody else really feeling satisfied with them, I eventually replaced both.
...
A card that has been absolutely stellar in my cube that doesn't get much (or any) recognition around here is Dictate of Heliod. I think that card is absolutely insane in any WX aggressive deck. Not only does it win you the game when you are ahead (like Armageddon would), it also prevents your from losing the game when you are behind. Dictete turns any random two or three creatures (even if those are just 1-drops or small tokens) into a serious board position. And it can act as a mean surprise and is rather hard to remove. Sure, it doesn't do anything if you lose all your creatures, but it also helps you rebuild insanely quickly. Even the most meager guy you topdeck turns into an actual threat. Also, having your dudes outsized by your midrange or control opponent just doesn't happen with Dictate. You'll have the earlier creatures and the bigger creatures!
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
I cut Death Cloud today, I really wanted it to work for the longest time but it just never came together very well. Sure a couple of times it was a blow out and won games, but 98% of the time it didn't make the main deck. It allways just feels to inefficient when you do the math, even an 8 mana death cloud isn't going to win you games the way many other spells could.