I like the idea of the conspiracies, but feel most of them are very non-cube-worthy. The only ones I really like are worldknit, power play, and sovereign's realm.
I've been thinking about making some custom conspiracies that could be used in either my powered proxy cube or my peasant cube. I was thinking rather than put them in the cube, I'd have like a dozen or so, and each person would get one at random. Not something for every draft, just something to shake things up a bit and to make interesting alternate initial conditions, as well as giving something to build around. Here are some of the designs I have thought up:
- Your starting life total is 25.
- Before you draw your opening hand, you may search your deck for a basic land and put it onto the battlefield tapped.
- Discard a card, exile this conspiracy: counter target spell.
- Discard a card, exile this conspiracy: exile target creature.
- Discard a card, exile this conspiracy: copy target spell you control. You choose a new target or targets for the copy.
- Discard a card, exile this conspiracy: choose a creature you control. Put a token onto the battlefield that is a copy of that creature.
- After all mulligans have been taken, you may scry 2. If you have taken a mulligan, you may scry 3 instead.
- After all mulligans have been taken, you may put a 2/1 colorless human token with haste onto the battlefield. your starting hand size is 6.
Do any of these seem crazy over/under powered? What other ideas do you guys have? I'm trying to make cards that are good, but not format warping.
This is the only one you've mentioned that isn't ridiculously powerful, as in more unbalancing than the Power 9 ridiculously powerful.
You are seriously underrating the value of an effect that costs 0, is always in your opening hand, and cannot be countered. Requiring a discard of the card of the players choice doesn't do nearly enough to mitigate these.
Before you draw your opening hand, you may search your deck for a basic land and put it onto the battlefield tapped.
This is a cantripping mox that's the color of your choice and is always in your opening hand.
Discard a card, exile this conspiracy: counter target spell.
Begin the game with Force of Will in your hand in addition to your opening 7, only instead of needing to pitch a blue card, pitch anything. Unlike FoW, this is also a discard outlet and won't even cost any life.
Discard a card, exile this conspiracy: exile target creature.
Begin the game with a mana-free Swords to Plowshares in your hand instead of your worst card, only the creature's controller won't even gain life.
Need I continue?
Before you add these to your cube, make sure you talk to your playgroup about it to make sure that they're interested in custom cards and custom conspiracies. If you haven't already, I'd also recommend actually trying some of the original conspiracy cards in your cube before you start upping the power level on your own custom-made conspiracies. I ran several of the best conspiracies from the original Conspiracy set for about a year after they were released, and I thought they were fun for a while, but they were also quite unbalancing. A lot of they people I played with didn't enjoy them as much as I did, and some people whose first experiences with cube were my cube were completely turned off to the whole experience as a result. Ultimately, I wound up cutting them due to complaints from multiple players that they were uninteractive and they they felt more like Un-cards than real cards.
If you want to try conspiracies, I'd rank the most powerful from the original set as:
I like the idea of the conspiracies, but feel most of them are very non-cube-worthy. The only ones I really like are worldknit, power play, and sovereign's realm.
On the contrary, I think they're almost all absolutely insane. They're free spells, and some are free ones that always happen--that adds a lot. You don't even mention Backup Plan, which is actually the best one and a card I would take over Mana Vault, Mind Twist, Mana Drain, JTMS, Jitte...does that song crazy? It did to me, until Backup Plan secured win after win after win. I would try them in a few drafts first, and pick as many as you can--the more a deck has, the better they tend to be, which is saying something since their baseline is 'nuts'.
Conspiracy two most of the conspiracies sucked, but double stroke was too good in a powered cube for my group, required too many, "double stroke can't name" for my liking, so I'd place it as the best.
Power play is the most fair broken conspiracy, but it's pretty insane too.
I wouldn't say Power Play is the most fair by any means. Going first is a huge advantage in magic, and especially cube where you can draft brutal aggressive decks. Also, the Conspiracy 2 conspiracies were still pretty great. Some were bad, sure, but there were a lot of good ones.
I wouldn't say Power Play is the most fair by any means. Going first is a huge advantage in magic, and especially cube where you can draft brutal aggressive decks. Also, the Conspiracy 2 conspiracies were still pretty great. Some were bad, sure, but there were a lot of good ones.
The colored ones definitely all sucked. You are right though, there were some pretty good ones, I was just very let down by the colored ones.
And it wouldn't be in the cube if it was fair, but it's more fair than infinite turns, which is really easy with doublestroke.
Most conspiracies are more than cube worthy. I am playing most of them, and some are power 9 levels of good. Even if you are fine with that, Double Stroke should be a problem in small cubes. Hymn of the Wilds is another broken one from Conspiracy 2. It is of the few cards we have cut from the cube, both because it won drafts repeatedly, but more because it made the draft process of the person who picked it pretty mindless. On a different note, of the colored conspiracies cycle I enjoy the blue and green ones and do not foresee them being cut. The rest were bad.
double stroke was too good in a powered cube for my group, required too many, "double stroke can't name" for my liking, so I'd place it as the best.
We are having this problem; it turns almost any spell into a monster, and already good spells into backbreaking game winners. Modal spells tend to be the worst offenders, for instance the confluences (Fiery Confluence doming the table for 12 has ended otherwise interesting MP games).
EDIT: I would also add that Sovereign's Realm is becoming a big of an issue, it just makes it too easy to play 5CC as you never miss a land drop and your draws always hit gas. We do 4 packs per person so it offsets the downside of needing 40 playables.
This is the only one you've mentioned that isn't ridiculously powerful, as in more unbalancing than the Power 9 ridiculously powerful.
You are seriously underrating the value of an effect that costs 0, is always in your opening hand, and cannot be countered. Requiring a discard of the card of the players choice doesn't do nearly enough to mitigate these.
Before you draw your opening hand, you may search your deck for a basic land and put it onto the battlefield tapped.
This is a cantripping mox that's the color of your choice and is always in your opening hand.
Discard a card, exile this conspiracy: counter target spell.
Begin the game with Force of Will in your hand in addition to your opening 7, only instead of needing to pitch a blue card, pitch anything. Unlike FoW, this is also a discard outlet and won't even cost any life.
Discard a card, exile this conspiracy: exile target creature.
Begin the game with a mana-free Swords to Plowshares in your hand instead of your worst card, only the creature's controller won't even gain life.
Need I continue?
Before you add these to your cube, make sure you talk to your playgroup about it to make sure that they're interested in custom cards and custom conspiracies. If you haven't already, I'd also recommend actually trying some of the original conspiracy cards in your cube before you start upping the power level on your own custom-made conspiracies. I ran several of the best conspiracies from the original Conspiracy set for about a year after they were released, and I thought they were fun for a while, but they were also quite unbalancing. A lot of they people I played with didn't enjoy them as much as I did, and some people whose first experiences with cube were my cube were completely turned off to the whole experience as a result. Ultimately, I wound up cutting them due to complaints from multiple players that they were uninteractive and they they felt more like Un-cards than real cards.
If you want to try conspiracies, I'd rank the most powerful from the original set as:
Because of the harsh reactions to the original conspiracies, I never bothered trying any from Conspiracy 2.
You make some fair points. I was thinking at the time that the discard, in addition to the fact that the opponent sees it coming and may be able to play around it, would be enough to balance it, but upon greater thought I believe you are correct. I still like the mechanics, but the cost needs to be revisited. What cost might be appropriate? Discard plus a mana cost such as 2 colorless (I do not want these to require colored mana)? Or would even that not be enough?
On a separate note, I tend to agree with those who are saying several of the conspiracies (backup plan, double stroke, hymn of the wilds in particular) are extremely, absurdly powerful. It is actually why I did not include them, because I feel even in a cube with black lotus, show and tell, ect, (or perhaps especially in such a cube) those effects are too powerful. Even power play may be too powerful. The other two are basically mana fixing and come with disadvantages that I think will make them reasonable, but I may be proven wrong even there.
Of the non-insane-power-level conspiracies, they just don't seem that interesting.
I still like the mechanics, but the cost needs to be revisited. What cost might be appropriate? Discard plus a mana cost such as 2 colorless (I do not want these to require colored mana)? Or would even that not be enough?
I'd probably give these a cost comparable to at least what you'd pay for the spell, maybe one more to make up for the fact that they're colorless and start in your opening hand. So they'd look something like this:
- Before you draw your opening hand2, Discard a card, exile this conspiracy, you may search your deck for a basic land and put it onto the battlefield tapped. Play this ability only when you could cast a sorcery.
- 2,Discard a card, exile this conspiracy: counter target spell.
- 3,Discard a card, exile this conspiracy: exile target creature.
- 2,Discard a card, exile this conspiracy: copy target spell you control. You choose a new target or targets for the copy.
- 4,Discard a card, exile this conspiracy: choose a creature you control. Put a token onto the battlefield that is a copy of that creature.
- After all mulligans have been taken2, Discard a card, exile this conspiracy: you may put a 2/1 colorless human token with haste onto the battlefield. your starting hand size is 6.
The extra 5 life and Scry 2 at the beginning wouldn't be any more insane as freebies than some of the WotC printed conspiracies, but a free 5 life will make aggro a lot worse in your cube. Maybe consider costing it at 1 plus a discard for a Healing Salve style effect instead?
I think this is still quite a powerful effect, they get to start with an extra mode on any one of their cards, and since it's colorless, you can have things like a Counterspell in a white weenie deck or a Fork in a Selesnya midrange deck, etc.
Even power play may be too powerful.
It's difficult to know exactly how much of an edge this gives, but however big that is I will say that players finding out for the first time that they were not going to get to play first after losing the first game of the match tended to be much more demoralized than they should have been. Here's a thread from a while back with me and a few others trying to get a handle on the power level of Power Play.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
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I like the idea of the conspiracies, but feel most of them are very non-cube-worthy. The only ones I really like are worldknit, power play, and sovereign's realm.
I've been thinking about making some custom conspiracies that could be used in either my powered proxy cube or my peasant cube. I was thinking rather than put them in the cube, I'd have like a dozen or so, and each person would get one at random. Not something for every draft, just something to shake things up a bit and to make interesting alternate initial conditions, as well as giving something to build around. Here are some of the designs I have thought up:
- Your starting life total is 25.
- Before you draw your opening hand, you may search your deck for a basic land and put it onto the battlefield tapped.
- Discard a card, exile this conspiracy: counter target spell.
- Discard a card, exile this conspiracy: exile target creature.
- Discard a card, exile this conspiracy: copy target spell you control. You choose a new target or targets for the copy.
- Discard a card, exile this conspiracy: choose a creature you control. Put a token onto the battlefield that is a copy of that creature.
- After all mulligans have been taken, you may scry 2. If you have taken a mulligan, you may scry 3 instead.
- After all mulligans have been taken, you may put a 2/1 colorless human token with haste onto the battlefield. your starting hand size is 6.
Do any of these seem crazy over/under powered? What other ideas do you guys have? I'm trying to make cards that are good, but not format warping.
This is the only one you've mentioned that isn't ridiculously powerful, as in more unbalancing than the Power 9 ridiculously powerful.
You are seriously underrating the value of an effect that costs 0, is always in your opening hand, and cannot be countered. Requiring a discard of the card of the players choice doesn't do nearly enough to mitigate these.
This is a cantripping mox that's the color of your choice and is always in your opening hand.
Begin the game with Force of Will in your hand in addition to your opening 7, only instead of needing to pitch a blue card, pitch anything. Unlike FoW, this is also a discard outlet and won't even cost any life.
Begin the game with a mana-free Swords to Plowshares in your hand instead of your worst card, only the creature's controller won't even gain life.
Need I continue?
Before you add these to your cube, make sure you talk to your playgroup about it to make sure that they're interested in custom cards and custom conspiracies. If you haven't already, I'd also recommend actually trying some of the original conspiracy cards in your cube before you start upping the power level on your own custom-made conspiracies. I ran several of the best conspiracies from the original Conspiracy set for about a year after they were released, and I thought they were fun for a while, but they were also quite unbalancing. A lot of they people I played with didn't enjoy them as much as I did, and some people whose first experiences with cube were my cube were completely turned off to the whole experience as a result. Ultimately, I wound up cutting them due to complaints from multiple players that they were uninteractive and they they felt more like Un-cards than real cards.
If you want to try conspiracies, I'd rank the most powerful from the original set as:
Because of the harsh reactions to the original conspiracies, I never bothered trying any from Conspiracy 2.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
On the contrary, I think they're almost all absolutely insane. They're free spells, and some are free ones that always happen--that adds a lot. You don't even mention Backup Plan, which is actually the best one and a card I would take over Mana Vault, Mind Twist, Mana Drain, JTMS, Jitte...does that song crazy? It did to me, until Backup Plan secured win after win after win. I would try them in a few drafts first, and pick as many as you can--the more a deck has, the better they tend to be, which is saying something since their baseline is 'nuts'.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
Power play is the most fair broken conspiracy, but it's pretty insane too.
thats my cube
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
The colored ones definitely all sucked. You are right though, there were some pretty good ones, I was just very let down by the colored ones.
And it wouldn't be in the cube if it was fair, but it's more fair than infinite turns, which is really easy with doublestroke.
thats my cube
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
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Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
We are having this problem; it turns almost any spell into a monster, and already good spells into backbreaking game winners. Modal spells tend to be the worst offenders, for instance the confluences (Fiery Confluence doming the table for 12 has ended otherwise interesting MP games).
EDIT: I would also add that Sovereign's Realm is becoming a big of an issue, it just makes it too easy to play 5CC as you never miss a land drop and your draws always hit gas. We do 4 packs per person so it offsets the downside of needing 40 playables.
You make some fair points. I was thinking at the time that the discard, in addition to the fact that the opponent sees it coming and may be able to play around it, would be enough to balance it, but upon greater thought I believe you are correct. I still like the mechanics, but the cost needs to be revisited. What cost might be appropriate? Discard plus a mana cost such as 2 colorless (I do not want these to require colored mana)? Or would even that not be enough?
Of the non-insane-power-level conspiracies, they just don't seem that interesting.
I'd probably give these a cost comparable to at least what you'd pay for the spell, maybe one more to make up for the fact that they're colorless and start in your opening hand. So they'd look something like this:
-
Before you draw your opening hand2, Discard a card, exile this conspiracy, you may search your deck for a basic land and put it onto the battlefield tapped. Play this ability only when you could cast a sorcery.- 2,Discard a card, exile this conspiracy: counter target spell.
- 3,Discard a card, exile this conspiracy: exile target creature.
- 2,Discard a card, exile this conspiracy: copy target spell you control. You choose a new target or targets for the copy.
- 4,Discard a card, exile this conspiracy: choose a creature you control. Put a token onto the battlefield that is a copy of that creature.
-
After all mulligans have been taken2, Discard a card, exile this conspiracy: you may put a 2/1 colorless human token with haste onto the battlefield.your starting hand size is 6.The extra 5 life and Scry 2 at the beginning wouldn't be any more insane as freebies than some of the WotC printed conspiracies, but a free 5 life will make aggro a lot worse in your cube. Maybe consider costing it at 1 plus a discard for a Healing Salve style effect instead?
I think this is still quite a powerful effect, they get to start with an extra mode on any one of their cards, and since it's colorless, you can have things like a Counterspell in a white weenie deck or a Fork in a Selesnya midrange deck, etc.
It's difficult to know exactly how much of an edge this gives, but however big that is I will say that players finding out for the first time that they were not going to get to play first after losing the first game of the match tended to be much more demoralized than they should have been. Here's a thread from a while back with me and a few others trying to get a handle on the power level of Power Play.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.