So I have always hated the fact that some cards just aren't cubable simply because cube is (traditionally at least) a singleton format.
Including a card like Squadron Hawk for instance as a 1-of just doesn't make sense, as a 1/1 flyer for 2cmc is just terrible. Even breaking singleton to include, say, four Hawks in your 360 or 450 cube (never mind trying to do so in larger sizes) so that a drafter can potentially draft multiples like in a normal draft format doesn't seem that great, since you're still unlikely to get all four. Additionally, breaking singleton in this manner takes multiple valuable cube slots away from other fun and interesting cards. I don't like this method at all.
So do we just have to sadly look at cards like Squadron Hawk and automatically disqualify them from the cube discussion because they are only really good in multiples? I thought this was unfortunately the case until I first heard of an interesting idea posed on the "Pack 1, Pick 1" podcast. It is as follows: include just the one Squadron Hawk in the cube list/draft, but allow it to operate under very specific rules once it is drafted. The rule being that though you may have just drafted one Hawk, you can include up to four in your deck. I know some of the Conspiracy cards like Deal Broker and Cogwork Librarian that operate under their own specific sets of rules see play in some people's cubes, so I thought why not give this a try.
And so I did. For a couple of months now I've tried this new "draft 1, get 4" rule for the above mentioned Squadron Hawk and for one of my all-time favorite Magic cards - Demigod of Revenge. I've been very happy with the results so far.
Like I said, this is not my idea, as the "Pack 1, Pick 1" guys have apparently been using it in their group from years. However, I didn't see a thread on here that really discussed this idea, so I thought I'd start one to get some community feedback. Do you like it? Would you try it? What cards would you try it with (This question is somewhat self-serving, as I would be interested in including other cards that a "draft 1, get 4" rule could work with but just haven't thought of any others.)? Do you think this rule pushes what would otherwise be cards that just aren't strong enough for cube by themselves into the realm of cubable cards? Anything else relevant?
You don't *have* to do anything. It's your cube, you do what you want and power to you.
But, the reason you don't see a lot of it here is that cube has historically been singleton, is introduced to players as singleton more often than not, and because of this people like and embrace this aspect of it. In fact, above anything else I've always thought the singleton aspect of cube is what defines it as *cube* and not just a custom draft format. It means some cards can't make it, sure, but that's barely bothered me. Words mean things, and cube has to mean something, right? My meaning doesn't overlap with everyone's, I know, but I imagine *most* people are ok with that restriction, or at least recognize/accept it.
That being said, I'm all for sectioned off discussion of non-traditional cube ideas, as the multiplayer cube people have done with their thread and the peasant/pauper folks have down with their subforum. A more focused discussion on some multiple-of builds or however you would phrase it would be good, in a lot of ways. Something like the 'post your craziest cube idea here!' or 'unpopular successes', but maybe less specific.
Also, hate to burst your bubble, but people have been flirting with the multiples before they did it as well. In fact I think part of the reason Jason Waddell/Trunkers left here to make Riptide was the lack of multiples-discussion going on here, and even though those forums aren't anywhere close to as active as here or having as much discussion they are overall more willing to engage in it in any thread vs here.
Probably the one that I've seen the most--besides the squadron hawk/demigod/AK/etc examples which explain themselves--is fetches. Some people are really unsatisfied with the options after the first 30, and they feel fetches are the best way to improve mana bases. This is one that I find is probably the best at maintaining what is closest to the singleton style in feel. Even though the fetches are great and improve a number of cards/strategies, them being less the actual strategy and more the enabler makes it at least feel subconsciously like it's the same thing. A big part of cubing for me is knowing that it's singleton and things that don't come back are gone forever, and in play a 2nd polluted delta is strong but not line-changing like no longer playing around the 2nd lightning bolt or second FoW/etc/etc/etc.
Second most would be to enable archetypes that are either underrepresented or underdrafted (or both). Maybe you want two wildfires but don't want to pay for the 2nd burning of xinye, or you want another reanimation spell but would rather animate dead x2 vs the last one, or etc. There's a line for what is too much redundancy, as an archetype can get too easy to draft and going all-in on a streamlined that's always going to be there from pack 1 to 45 will get old too.
Third would be to provide more generic tools to players, like more lightning bolts or more 2/1s for W. Some of these are less innocuous than others, as more 2/1s for W strengthens the deck but only that specific deck/style, but the removal can be tougher. A card like lightning bolt is great in any deck that plays red, but that might make other cards worse. Whether or not this is a positive or negative thing depends on what your goal is.
Salmo, I appreciate your thoughts on the subject and in particular the two interesting links (especially the "Squadroning" one) to the riptidelab forums, as I do not frequent that site and was not familiar with them.
However, I think you're perhaps slightly misinterpreting what I was asking about. Like you, a big part of what cube is for me is that it's a singleton format. In a traditional cube, I'm completely against having multiples of the same exact card IN THE DRAFT (or in the cube list), as I think that takes away valuable slots from all the diverse and fun cards I want to at least have a chance to play with. What I was suggesting was allowing multiples of a specific card (Squadron Hawk for example) in the deck construction/play portions to allow those cards to actually exist where it would be impossible for them to do so otherwise. Maybe think about it in terms of Wizards' design of Relentless Rats; without the last phrase which allows a fundamental rule of constructed Magic to be broken, Relentless Rats would have a difficult time even functioning in the way it was meant to. In the same way, I'm just asking what people think about allowing a certain exception to the rules of cube for particular cards that NEED IT, not just cards that want it.
For what it's worth, I just remembered the "Pack 1, Pick 1" guys talking about Cloudpost as another card of this kind that NEEDS this type of special rule to even exist as a cubable card.
A big part of cubing for me is knowing that it's singleton and things that don't come back are gone forever
This is my feeling as well. I like knowing that I have to choose between these two cards for my deck because I won't get another chance one of them. I also like being able hate draft against strategies that I know my deck will have trouble with. This is probably the thing I hate the most about cube leagues on MTGO. It takes something away from the experience for me to have my opponent playing the mirror match or drop the same planeswalker.
The voucher idea is one people have kicked around for a while, and I play around with it every now and then to see if I can build a cube around it that I'd like. Haven't managed yet, but it's been fun to think about. It also makes hidden agenda conspiracies work much more neatly. I'm more inclined to bend the rules than most around here, though. I like finding my own ways around problems, even if Occam wouldn't like them.
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Check out the thread for my cube if you have the time, and tell me how terrible it is.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
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Including a card like Squadron Hawk for instance as a 1-of just doesn't make sense, as a 1/1 flyer for 2cmc is just terrible. Even breaking singleton to include, say, four Hawks in your 360 or 450 cube (never mind trying to do so in larger sizes) so that a drafter can potentially draft multiples like in a normal draft format doesn't seem that great, since you're still unlikely to get all four. Additionally, breaking singleton in this manner takes multiple valuable cube slots away from other fun and interesting cards. I don't like this method at all.
So do we just have to sadly look at cards like Squadron Hawk and automatically disqualify them from the cube discussion because they are only really good in multiples? I thought this was unfortunately the case until I first heard of an interesting idea posed on the "Pack 1, Pick 1" podcast. It is as follows: include just the one Squadron Hawk in the cube list/draft, but allow it to operate under very specific rules once it is drafted. The rule being that though you may have just drafted one Hawk, you can include up to four in your deck. I know some of the Conspiracy cards like Deal Broker and Cogwork Librarian that operate under their own specific sets of rules see play in some people's cubes, so I thought why not give this a try.
And so I did. For a couple of months now I've tried this new "draft 1, get 4" rule for the above mentioned Squadron Hawk and for one of my all-time favorite Magic cards - Demigod of Revenge. I've been very happy with the results so far.
Like I said, this is not my idea, as the "Pack 1, Pick 1" guys have apparently been using it in their group from years. However, I didn't see a thread on here that really discussed this idea, so I thought I'd start one to get some community feedback. Do you like it? Would you try it? What cards would you try it with (This question is somewhat self-serving, as I would be interested in including other cards that a "draft 1, get 4" rule could work with but just haven't thought of any others.)? Do you think this rule pushes what would otherwise be cards that just aren't strong enough for cube by themselves into the realm of cubable cards? Anything else relevant?
But, the reason you don't see a lot of it here is that cube has historically been singleton, is introduced to players as singleton more often than not, and because of this people like and embrace this aspect of it. In fact, above anything else I've always thought the singleton aspect of cube is what defines it as *cube* and not just a custom draft format. It means some cards can't make it, sure, but that's barely bothered me. Words mean things, and cube has to mean something, right? My meaning doesn't overlap with everyone's, I know, but I imagine *most* people are ok with that restriction, or at least recognize/accept it.
That being said, I'm all for sectioned off discussion of non-traditional cube ideas, as the multiplayer cube people have done with their thread and the peasant/pauper folks have down with their subforum. A more focused discussion on some multiple-of builds or however you would phrase it would be good, in a lot of ways. Something like the 'post your craziest cube idea here!' or 'unpopular successes', but maybe less specific.
Also, hate to burst your bubble, but people have been flirting with the multiples before they did it as well. In fact I think part of the reason Jason Waddell/Trunkers left here to make Riptide was the lack of multiples-discussion going on here, and even though those forums aren't anywhere close to as active as here or having as much discussion they are overall more willing to engage in it in any thread vs here.
-'Breaking Singleton' is about exactly what it sounds like http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/breaking-singleton.497/
-'Revisiting Squadroning' discusses making non-multiple cards multiple, pretty much adding 2nd+ effects of a card that don't exist or have subpar options http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/revisiting-squadroning.627/
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Probably the one that I've seen the most--besides the squadron hawk/demigod/AK/etc examples which explain themselves--is fetches. Some people are really unsatisfied with the options after the first 30, and they feel fetches are the best way to improve mana bases. This is one that I find is probably the best at maintaining what is closest to the singleton style in feel. Even though the fetches are great and improve a number of cards/strategies, them being less the actual strategy and more the enabler makes it at least feel subconsciously like it's the same thing. A big part of cubing for me is knowing that it's singleton and things that don't come back are gone forever, and in play a 2nd polluted delta is strong but not line-changing like no longer playing around the 2nd lightning bolt or second FoW/etc/etc/etc.
Second most would be to enable archetypes that are either underrepresented or underdrafted (or both). Maybe you want two wildfires but don't want to pay for the 2nd burning of xinye, or you want another reanimation spell but would rather animate dead x2 vs the last one, or etc. There's a line for what is too much redundancy, as an archetype can get too easy to draft and going all-in on a streamlined that's always going to be there from pack 1 to 45 will get old too.
Third would be to provide more generic tools to players, like more lightning bolts or more 2/1s for W. Some of these are less innocuous than others, as more 2/1s for W strengthens the deck but only that specific deck/style, but the removal can be tougher. A card like lightning bolt is great in any deck that plays red, but that might make other cards worse. Whether or not this is a positive or negative thing depends on what your goal is.
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However, I think you're perhaps slightly misinterpreting what I was asking about. Like you, a big part of what cube is for me is that it's a singleton format. In a traditional cube, I'm completely against having multiples of the same exact card IN THE DRAFT (or in the cube list), as I think that takes away valuable slots from all the diverse and fun cards I want to at least have a chance to play with. What I was suggesting was allowing multiples of a specific card (Squadron Hawk for example) in the deck construction/play portions to allow those cards to actually exist where it would be impossible for them to do so otherwise. Maybe think about it in terms of Wizards' design of Relentless Rats; without the last phrase which allows a fundamental rule of constructed Magic to be broken, Relentless Rats would have a difficult time even functioning in the way it was meant to. In the same way, I'm just asking what people think about allowing a certain exception to the rules of cube for particular cards that NEED IT, not just cards that want it.
Also, Accumulated Knowledge and Rune Snag (a card I already play for its face value!) were good suggestions.
For what it's worth, I just remembered the "Pack 1, Pick 1" guys talking about Cloudpost as another card of this kind that NEEDS this type of special rule to even exist as a cubable card.
This is my feeling as well. I like knowing that I have to choose between these two cards for my deck because I won't get another chance one of them. I also like being able hate draft against strategies that I know my deck will have trouble with. This is probably the thing I hate the most about cube leagues on MTGO. It takes something away from the experience for me to have my opponent playing the mirror match or drop the same planeswalker.
As for the 'draft 1, get 4' idea, this is my feelings exactly. I'm sure it'd be fun, but it's not something I'm interested in doing for my own drafts.
Like Salmo said, though, this is the beauty of cube. You can do whatever you want! It's great!
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)